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View Full Version : is there such a thing as a small race dwarf?



Soranar
2010-01-30, 07:31 PM
I want to make a very specific build and being a small dwarf would really help, if that even exists?

Faleldir
2010-01-30, 07:34 PM
Do you need a racial ability that dwarves have, or do you just need to be treated as a dwarf for prestige classes?

Soranar
2010-01-30, 07:35 PM
mostly for prestige classes, and I didn't want to waste 3 levels on stoneblessed

golentan
2010-01-30, 07:36 PM
Isn't there a small race of dwarves from dragonlance?

Scoot
2010-01-30, 07:40 PM
Isn't there a small race of dwarves from dragonlance?

There's the Gully Dwarf.

It's small, it's a Dwarf.

It soils itself upon seeing its own shadow. :smallannoyed:

Grumman
2010-01-30, 07:40 PM
I think Forgotten Realms has some sort of wild dwarf that is small sized.

golentan
2010-01-30, 07:57 PM
There's the Gully Dwarf.

It's small, it's a Dwarf.

It soils itself upon seeing its own shadow. :smallannoyed:

That's the one.

You don't need little things like courage to be an adventurer. My players have proven that time and time again. Though that may not have been cowardice so much as a learned response from TPKs.

Optimystik
2010-01-30, 08:06 PM
You don't need little things like courage to be an adventurer. My players have proven that time and time again. Though that may not have been cowardice so much as a learned response from TPKs.

The trouble is that being susceptible to fear can lead to as many TPKs as it prevents.

And I'm not sure that -4 Int and Cha is worth meeting any size requirement myself...

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-30, 08:12 PM
Why do you need small size? There are ways of getting that that don't rely on race, if it comes to that.

Grumman
2010-01-30, 08:40 PM
The trouble is that being susceptible to fear can lead to as many TPKs as it prevents.
Worse: resistance to fear doesn't mean you're suicidally brave, it just means you can remain rational and do whatever gives you the best chance of survival instead of whatever your primitive hindbrain tells you.

Soranar
2010-01-30, 08:44 PM
I could always dip into paladin

does a Gully dwarf get decent stat bonuses at least? I mean for -4 charisma, intelligence and vulnerability to fear

do they get something or are they like hobgoblins?

and what's their favored class?

Scoot
2010-01-30, 08:47 PM
+2Con/Dex.

Rogue.

They also get a little bonus to Move Silently and Hide, which is nice for that. (I don't remember exactly what Hobgoblins get)

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-30, 08:56 PM
+2Con/Dex.

Rogue.

They also get a little bonus to Move Silently and Hide, which is nice for that. (I don't remember exactly what Hobgoblins get)

He also has the special ability to grovel for his life. and has a chance to manipulate the enemy into not kill him.

erikun
2010-01-30, 09:05 PM
I do believe there is another small-sized dwarf running around. I'm afraid I don't know the details or where to find him, beyond that it is winter-themed and a +1 LA. May not be what you're looking for, though.

Soranar
2010-01-30, 09:15 PM
I do believe there is another small-sized dwarf running around. I'm afraid I don't know the details or where to find him, beyond that it is winter-themed and a +1 LA. May not be what you're looking for, though.

thanks, turns out arctic dwarf is online to boot and it also has the perfect favored class

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-30, 09:17 PM
I do believe there is another small-sized dwarf running around. I'm afraid I don't know the details or where to find him, beyond that it is winter-themed and a +1 LA. May not be what you're looking for, though.

Arctic Dwarves can be found in Races of Faerun.

They are Small sized. They get Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, and Cha -2, are immune to cold, plus they get all the standard dwarven racial stuff (darkvision, stonecunning, stability, various racial bonuses). Their favored class is Ranger and they have a +2 LA.

Raiki
2010-01-30, 09:19 PM
Well, you could always be a derro. Personally, I'd let them count as a strange, tiny Don King kind of dwarf if it meant I could con a player into actually playing one of them.

+4 dex, +2 con, -4 Wis, +6 Cha.

Oh yeah, and you're also batcrap crazy and have the sun tolerance of a hungover Mogwai. But on the plus side you get a bonus to hiding and poisoning. What's not to love?

And the best part? You get all of this for a grand total of +0 LA (or +2 if you want to be sane, but where's the fun in that?)
~R~

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-30, 09:23 PM
And the best part? You get all of this for a grand total of +0 LA (or +2 if you want to be sane, but where's the fun in that?)
~R~

LA -- is not the same as LA +0!!

EDIT: Also, Derro have 3 RHD.

Raiki
2010-01-30, 09:26 PM
LA -- is not the same as LA +0!!

This is true, I must confess that I strayed a bit into the realm of House Ruling there. I would definitely allow it if I knew the player could RP it right. And besides, there are quite a few races out there that are LA -- or have no LA listing at all that shouldn't be banned as PCs just because of that fact.

I'm very big on monstrous characters, in case you can't tell.

Edit:

EDIT: Also, Derro have 3 RHD.

Well darn, I completely forgot to look at that, and it shoots my idea of an ECL 0 Derro right in the foot, huh?

Well, you can't have everything. Have fun with your Arctic Dwarf, Soranar.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-30, 09:28 PM
Refluff gnomes with slightly different abilities? Exchange say the magic and illusion bonus for stone cunning and stability, mayhap?

Leon
2010-01-30, 09:29 PM
Frostburn has the Midgard Dwarf (Small Native Outsider with +4 LA)

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-30, 09:34 PM
Or just make all dwarves Small sized? I think I'd like them better that way. Then get rid of gnomes and halflings. :smallamused:

deuxhero
2010-01-30, 10:25 PM
and what's their favored class?

People use that rule?

Hallavast
2010-01-30, 10:36 PM
People use that rule?

Yes. Why wouldn't you?

Beyond its uses for PCs, the rule comes in handy in NPC design and flavoring.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 10:38 PM
People use that rule?

yes. And the multiclassing penalty rule.

In my opinion those rules can go die in a fire.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 10:42 PM
Instead of LA, take a regular dwarf and add a couple of levels of psychic warrior, along with compression and expansion? You can use your bonus feats to take Hidden Talent (for 2 pp and an additional power known) and Practiced Manifester, which should improve pp based on your Wisdom (up to level 6, anyway).

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 10:44 PM
Yes. Why wouldn't you?

Beyond its uses for PCs, the rule comes in handy in NPC design and flavoring.

Tell me, why WOULD you. You're going to penalize a player because they aren't the class the book says they should be?

Soranar
2010-01-30, 10:45 PM
the point is not to waste levels on qualifying for something (like taking stoneblessed dwarf with a small race)

so taking psychic warrior would just be more of the same really

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 10:48 PM
the point is not to waste levels on qualifying for something (like taking stoneblessed dwarf with a small race)

so taking psychic warrior would just be more of the same really


thanks, turns out arctic dwarf is online to boot and it also has the perfect favored class


Arctic Dwarves can be found in Races of Faerun.

They are Small sized. They get Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, and Cha -2, are immune to cold, plus they get all the standard dwarven racial stuff (darkvision, stonecunning, stability, various racial bonuses). Their favored class is Ranger and they have a +2 LA.

...Okay. You get lots of stuff via psychic warrior, or NOTHING with +2 LA.

Which is a bigger waste here?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 10:49 PM
...Okay. You get lots of stuff via psychic warrior, or NOTHING with +2 LA.

Which is a bigger waste here?

Psychic warrior.:smallwink:

Grumman
2010-01-30, 10:49 PM
Tell me, why WOULD you. You're going to penalize a player because they aren't the class the book says they should be?
The favoured class rule only starts penalising them if they're at least two classes that aren't the class the book says they should be.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 10:53 PM
The favoured class rule only starts penalising them if they're at least two classes that aren't the class the book says they should be.

Yes, I'm aware. Why should a player be penalized for being 3 different classes though? If it's cheese the DM can just say no. If it's character concept and the DM uses these rules the player is penalized for........trying to make an interesting character. Or, the player could even be penalized just because he/she's trying to come up with a way to try and stay on the same ground as his/her more powerful teammates.

KillianHawkeye
2010-01-30, 10:53 PM
Tell me, why WOULD you.

Because it's in the book?

Seriously, though, a DM should feel free to change favored classes or get rid of them alltogether. It doesn't add much beyond a dash of flavor to each race, and it's based on the default assumptions for D&D's setting (Greyhawk) so it might not even apply as is if you're running a different setting. All in all, it's not remotely necessary as a game feature.

Soranar
2010-01-30, 10:54 PM
I was thinking of taking the gully dwarf, the description is just hilarious (especially if you intend to play a Paladin and go against type)

Zeful
2010-01-30, 11:08 PM
Tell me, why WOULD you. You're going to penalize a player because they aren't the class the book says they should be?

Because the incessant amount of multiclassing is often seen as munchkining. And it's one of the few rules that actually makes sense as written.

Also, some DMs are of the opinion that if you need 3+ classes more than 2 levels apart, you're doing something wrong.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-30, 11:12 PM
And it's one of the few rules that actually makes sense as written.

Excuse me?
Could you elaborate, sir?

Soranar
2010-01-30, 11:13 PM
guys, you might want to start a thread to duke it out

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-30, 11:13 PM
Because the incessant amount of multiclassing is often seen as munchkining. And it's one of the few rules that actually makes sense as written.

Also, some DMs are of the opinion that if you need 3+ classes more than 2 levels apart, you're doing something wrong.Multiple base classes is a way to shore up a weak build, not boost a strong one. The best thing in the game is is Wizard+PrCs. Second best is Druid 20. And it doesn't make sense, it just nerfs non-core classes and people who dislike poor racial fluff. Why are Gnomes better Bards than Beguilers? Why would you have Elves as Wizards, when the traditional fantasy representation of them is as savage woodsmen? And why would you make XP calculations any more complicated?

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 11:15 PM
guys, you might want to start a thread to duke it out

Sorry. We've taken over this one. (cheesy evil laugh)

Seriously though. This happens in a lot of threads here.

nahmoss
2010-01-30, 11:22 PM
Why don't you just play a Dwarf, and write up a background that he is a runt/midget and now considered small sized. Maybe adjust the stat bonuses to suit the RP, such as he gets +2 CHA to suit that fact he was picked on as a child and learned to talk his way out of situations, but -2 CON because he is undersized.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 11:24 PM
Because the incessant amount of multiclassing is often seen as munchkining. And it's one of the few rules that actually makes sense as written.No it doesn't. Something that made sense would be granting bonus XP for taking levels in your class.

As written, it encourages people to multiclass, not to stay in your racial class.

Zeful
2010-01-30, 11:26 PM
Excuse me?
Could you elaborate, sir?

Have you ever tried to learn a martial art? I have, and it takes an immense amount of concentration and conditioning to keep everything as it was when you stopped. Learning two very separate martial arts, say Akido and Fencing, and keeping yourself in condition for both is exponentially harder than just one. If you just stopped trying to condition yourself for one of them, eventually it goes away, and you stop being able to do anything associated to that conditioning (retraining). A favored class would be a cultural level of conditioning to it's people, in favor of one way of life. This difficulty would manifest itself one of two ways with the 3.5 system: A small, but significant, penalty to XP gained. Or a direct penalty to BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Spells Known and Spell slots, Spell level Progression, and other class features other than you're race's favored class, and/or the class you chose at first level.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-30, 11:30 PM
Have you ever tried to learn a martial art? I have, and it takes an immense amount of concentration and conditioning to keep everything as it was when you stopped. Learning two very separate martial arts, say Akido and Fencing, and keeping yourself in condition for both is exponentially harder than just one. If you just stopped trying to condition yourself for one of them, eventually it goes away, and you stop being able to do anything associated to that conditioning (retraining). A favored class would be a cultural level of conditioning to it's people, in favor of one way of life. This difficulty would manifest itself one of two ways with the 3.5 system: A small, but significant, penalty to XP gained. Or a direct penalty to BAB, Saves, Skill Points, Spells Known and Spell slots, Spell level Progression, and other class features other than you're race's favored class, and/or the class you chose at first level.Classes are not in-game constructs, they're out-of-game abstractions for simplicity.

Plus, it could easily be closer to double-majoring or playing a sport while going for a major, which plenty of people do.

Lycanthromancer
2010-01-30, 11:45 PM
Classes are not in-game constructs, they're out-of-game abstractions for simplicity.

Plus, it could easily be closer to double-majoring or playing a sport while going for a major, which plenty of people do.And who's to say it is multiple martial arts? My fighter/wizard (unoptimal as it is) could easily be studying a single martial art that combines magic and martial might into one fighting style.

Same could very easily be said for fighter/ranger/warblade (as they're far more similar than the fighter/wizard mentioned earlier).

Mystic Muse
2010-01-30, 11:54 PM
Also, in what way does it hurt the game by taking them away? It really only hurts melee by taking away options whereas you can just go straight wizard and outclass pretty much anything if You have any idea what you're doing.

MickJay
2010-01-31, 08:20 AM
And who's to say it is multiple martial arts? My fighter/wizard (unoptimal as it is) could easily be studying a single martial art that combines magic and martial might into one fighting style.

Same could very easily be said for fighter/ranger/warblade (as they're far more similar than the fighter/wizard mentioned earlier).

I think the point is that it would similarly be difficult for a person to continue his daily combat practice and at the same time study spells. A single-class character is generally assumed to be improving himself between combat, unless you just handwaive it, and assume that shooting things in the face makes people better at, e.g., singing; now imagine someone who'd try to focus on multiple areas of personal development at the same time, without having any more actual time to perfect their skills than other characters. If someone could convincingly roleplay a 4-class character who could find time to train melee combat, meditate, learn magic, do acrobatics and sneak around, that's fine, but few players would bother with that.

Multiclassing penalty seems to be simulating precisely that, the extra effort necessary to maintain all the different skills and abilities at a certain level.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-31, 08:28 AM
How do you explain Factotum, then? Duskblade? Ranger? Anything with multiple prestige classes, because those don't count for multiclass penalties?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-01-31, 09:22 AM
How do you explain Factotum, then? Duskblade? Ranger? Anything with multiple prestige classes, because those don't count for multiclass penalties?

Amusingly, prestige classes are supposed to be more focused and harder to train for. A build that never goes above level two in any one class also lacks penalties, meaning Fighter2/Barb (the Pounce variant)1/Rogue1/Frenzied Berzerker10/XYZ6 lacks multiclass penalties.

For a rule that tries to stop characters having abilities all over the place, it actually encourages it if you want more than one class at all.

Thurbane
2010-01-31, 08:26 PM
People use that rule?
I'm actually susprised that so many people don't...

There seems to be an undercurrent of adhering slavishly to RAW when it benefits PCs, but handwaving RAW when it is to their detriment. Not accusing anyone here of that, BTW. Just strikes me as a bit of a double standard.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-31, 08:34 PM
There seems to be an undercurrent of adhering slavishly to RAW when it benefits PCs, but handwaving RAW when it is to their detriment. Not accusing anyone here of that, BTW. Just strikes me as a bit of a double standard.

I think that undercurrent does not exist at all, and is an invention of "roleplaying" elitists too lazy to understand the subtleties of the optimization subculture, designed to stroke egos and increase partisan divisions. :smallfurious:
Not accusing anyone here of being those elitists. Just something I find disturbing and need to talk about.

Also, because human is a strong race and prestige classes are exempt, this rule isn't very common to see amongst those who study RAW.

Akal Saris
2010-01-31, 08:55 PM
For the record, Pathfinder changes favored class from a penalty to a boost - when taking levels in your favored class you gain +1 HP or +1 skill point/level, and you can take as many classes as you'd like. It's a small change, but I find that it keeps the flavor of having a favored class without the idiocy of the 3.5 ruling.

The 3.5 ruling doesn't even prevent crazy multi-classing; it can even encourage it at times. If I'm an elf and going Warblade 4/Barbarian 2 gives me a penalty, I'd probably go Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2 instead, without really sacrificing any fluff at all.

It's even more idiotic when you consider that newer classes don't benefit from the rule: my dwarven knight 4/marshal 2/ashblood dragoon 1 would incur experience penalties from levels in knight and marshal, despite both classes being perfectly within the flavor of a dwarf.

As others have said, it barely inhibits munchkins at all - at least, not munchkins that know what they're doing. It's almost more likely to impact players who chose their new classes based on flavor reasons. I remember the look on one PC's face when I informed him that his elven monk 5/cleric 3/ninja 1 had a 40% experience penalty, even though he designed the character that way for RP reasons (he was a 6 strength, 12 con monk with weapon focus (longsword) and weapon proficiency (longsword) - believe me when I say he was completely useless). We hand-waved the experience penalty in that case for obvious reasons.

I agree with Thurbane that sometimes there's an undercurrent of hand-waving RAW when it screws the PCs, but I think this is a situation where RAW gets ignored because it was a poorly thought out hold-over from 2E in the first place.

Thurbane
2010-01-31, 09:19 PM
I hear they made a game that disposes of all the "un-fun" rules in 3.5 ...called 4E or somesuch! :smallbiggrin:

golentan
2010-01-31, 09:28 PM
Removed at the implicit request of the masses.

Soranar
2010-01-31, 10:05 PM
I hear they made a game that disposes of all the "un-fun" rules in 3.5 ...called 4E or somesuch! :smallbiggrin:

Blasphemy! 4E represents everything that is wrong and diluted. It's like monopoly for kids, taking out all the difficulty made it boring.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-31, 10:07 PM
If 4E isn't difficult for you the DM is doing something wrong.

And while I am a 3aboo, I would encourage y'all to not provoke an edition skirmish.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-01, 01:37 AM
[Magnor - scrubbed at quotee's behest]

The thread's already been derailed by a favored class mechanic debate, don't add a SECOND derailment in the form of an edition war on top of things!

Mystic Muse
2010-02-01, 01:39 AM
The thread's already been derailed by a favored class mechanic debate, don't add a SECOND derailment in the form of an edition war on top of things!

okay. Delete your quote and I'll delete my post. I'll simply say this. I like both 4th edition and 3.5 but both have their flaws.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-01, 01:42 AM
okay. Delete your quote and I'll delete my post.

I...don't know that it was that serious a deal. :smalltongue: I only quoted yours because it was the most recent, I wasn't trying to single you out or anything.

But you've already done your half, I'll keep up my end, I guess.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-01, 01:48 AM
I...don't know that it was that serious a deal. :smalltongue: I only quoted yours because it was the most recent, I wasn't trying to single you out or anything.

But you've already done your half, I'll keep up my end, I guess.

Probably isn't but I figure I should anyway. I'd rather I didn't get any infractions. Plus it's not like it's going to affect my post count.:smalltongue:

DSCrankshaw
2010-02-01, 03:42 AM
I've heard of some houserules that make dwarves small but give them the powerful build trait, giving them the benefits of small without making them lose their access to medium sized weapons. I hear it worked pretty well, but I guess this isn't what you're looking for.