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Angrist
2010-01-31, 12:08 AM
Is Run a good feat?
I have an elf Barbarian that is hitting ninth level and I'm considering Run but I'm not sure. I like the idea of having dex mods and extra speed but I don't thik it will help if I'm the only one on the team with decent movement.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-01-31, 12:11 AM
http://www.cotygonzales.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/TrapLARGE.jpg

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-31, 12:11 AM
Not really. You charge 60-80', that's probably enough. If an enemy can move more than that in a round and still remain relevant, the casters can slow him down or speed you up. Run ony helps for running away or if fights start at extreme ranges, and Teleport/DimDorr can handle those. You don't want to be too much faster than your team, and there are far too many good feats out there to spend one on Run.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 12:22 AM
Run isn't needed. If you need to run away, a human Barbarian can move 40 ft (30 base+10 Fast Movement) normally, charge 80 ft (40*2) and run 160 ft (40*4). If that's not enough, use Haste. That increases the normal move to 70 ft (30 base+10 Fast Movement+30 Haste), charge to 140 ft (70*2) and running to 280 ft (70*4).
Otherwise, Teleport or Dimension Door.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 12:26 AM
Depends on what sourcebooks you have available, and how you play. If you have plenty of books, don't bother. There are oodles of shinies to use instead. If you're in a campaign where running like hell is a common occurance, I'd say yes. This opinion is largely from personal experience as a DM, where all my PCs took Run and drove me mad because they could easily escape any scenario where I didn't use a bloody cave-in to keep them there.

That, on top of letting them get full plate by second level, is part of a long list of mistakes I've made as a novice DM. As a result I've started recording the time gap between all significant locations using every possible means of transportation, just so I know what it'll take to catch those buggers.

My PCs are cowards though. So if you fit that bill and like driving your DM nuts, go right ahead and take Run.

EDIT: Then again, the ninja above me has caused me to notice something; at the point you're at, running on foot is kind of irrelevent. Chances are anything you're fighting at that level has got something to keep you in its Instant Death Radius.

Grumman
2010-01-31, 12:33 AM
Absolutely not. When it comes to running, there are only three speeds: faster than the enemy, the same speed as the enemy, and slower than the enemy. As a barbarian you're already faster than infantry, and Run isn't enough to keep you from being slower than cavalry.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 12:36 AM
Absolutely not. When it comes to running, there are only three speeds: faster than the enemy, the same speed as the enemy, and slower than the enemy. As a barbarian you're already faster than infantry, and Run isn't enough to keep you from being slower than cavalry.

You'd be exactly as fast as cavalry, actually. Cavalry moves at 50 ft, Barbarians at 40. 50 x 4 = 200, 40 x 5 = 200.

And that's assuming that a horse carrying a (probably heavily armored) rider only has a light load.

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-31, 12:42 AM
You'd be exactly as fast as cavalry, actually. Cavalry moves at 50 ft, Barbarians at 40. 50 x 4 = 200, 40 x 5 = 200.

And that's assuming that a horse carrying a (probably heavily armored) rider only has a light load.

If you're assuming Heavy Cavalry, then it's likely that they are on a light load.

If you're assuming Light Cavalry, then it's likely that we're using a light warhorse and lightly armored troops, for a faster movement than the running barbarian.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 12:43 AM
I don't have my MM on me. What's a Light Warhorse's movement speed?

Milskidasith
2010-01-31, 12:46 AM
You have internet access, look at the SRD. It's not hard to google.

It's 60 feet.

d20rsrd.org, by the way.

Studoku
2010-01-31, 12:48 AM
I don't have my MM on me. What's a Light Warhorse's movement speed?

60ft base

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/horse.htm

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 12:49 AM
I have such a huge preference for meatspace books that it often doesn't occur to me that the non-meatspace variety even EXISTS. Hence why I didn't just go look it up.

Also because someone who knew it off the top of their head would probably wander past in a few minutes anyway.

But yeah, when you take that and add Paladin mount speed boosts and whatnot on top of that, the answer is "Run is useless." If it's a low-level campaign it might help, but when you add horses and spells into the mix it gets pathetic real quick-like.

Then again, there's still the +4 Jump bonus...

Angrist
2010-01-31, 12:53 AM
Absolutely not. When it comes to running, there are only three speeds: faster than the enemy, the same speed as the enemy, and slower than the enemy.

You forgot the fourth speed. You dont have to be faster than the enemy, just faster than the guy next to you.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 12:54 AM
You forgot the fourth speed. You dont have to be faster than the enemy, just faster than the guy next to you.

Or flying. Fly wins.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-01-31, 12:57 AM
Or flying. Fly wins.I prefer Invisible. Let the party run away, you stay behind and loot.

Or Teleporting. ∞/6 seconds is pretty darn good IMHO.

truemane
2010-01-31, 12:58 AM
Also, horses have the Run feat as well. So you're stymied in several different ways.

But as to the OP's question: Run provides very little actual mechanical benefit in your average (non-cowardly-party) game. Combat rarely takes place on a scale where a full-round worth of movement is required to move between various parts of it and once you're out of combat, how fast you can run full-out in full-armour is rarely an issue.

The +4 to Jump checks might be nice. But other than that, only take it if you think it's fun.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 12:58 AM
I prefer Invisible. Let the party run away, you stay behind and loot.

Or Teleporting. ∞/6 seconds is pretty darn good IMHO.

How about all of the above?

Invisible flying teleporting barbarian! :smallbiggrin:

Irreverent Fool
2010-01-31, 01:00 AM
Horses get Run as a bonus feat. Get a horse. Or a boost to your base speed.

obnoxious
sig

Roderick_BR
2010-01-31, 01:26 AM
Run is like emcumbrance rules. Most people doesn't care for it (except for when a player tries to carry half the equipment list on his backpack, or when checking if you can reach something in one round).
I really don't think what good it can do. It makes your max speed be x5 instead of x4, but doesn't explain it in battle, since you can effectivelly only run x2 (double move). Unless I read that wrong...
But yeah, I never really saw anyone actually using it.

Chrono22
2010-01-31, 01:29 AM
It's a great feat to give your pegasus mount. And giving it to a dragon is also amusing.
Run flying, the pegasus could move 600 feet per round.
Run flying, a gold dragon could move 1250 feet per round.

tyckspoon
2010-01-31, 01:40 AM
Run is like emcumbrance rules. Most people doesn't care for it (except for when a player tries to carry half the equipment list on his backpack, or when checking if you can reach something in one round).
I really don't think what good it can do. It makes your max speed be x5 instead of x4, but doesn't explain it in battle, since you can effectivelly only run x2 (double move). Unless I read that wrong...
But yeah, I never really saw anyone actually using it.

You can still take a full-round action, such as running, in a fight. It's just usually a fairly bad idea, as it has the same restrictions as charging (you rarely need to move that far in a completely straight line in a fight, at least not without better options for doing so) and you lose your Dex bonus when you do it. The Run feat does at least fix that part, but you're still faced with it being basically useful in situations where it is critical that you cover about 30 feet more in one full-round action instead of 1 full-round + 1 move. Which is a corner case with quite a few ways to approach it, with Run being one of the worst thanks to the very high opportunity cost of spending the feat.

Dr.Epic
2010-01-31, 01:48 AM
http://www.cotygonzales.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/TrapLARGE.jpg

Tee-Hee!!!:smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 01:53 AM
Run is like emcumbrance rules. Most people doesn't care for it (except for when a player tries to carry half the equipment list on his backpack, or when checking if you can reach something in one round).

Most people ignore encumberance? Huh. I usually give it a lot of attention, since a) I want to throw any handicap I can find at my players and b) I want to throw any handicap I can find at myself. Encumberance can work hell on your AC and Check Penalties, too. I was building a sheet for a fellow player and had to take away like half his equipment because having a Medium load practically crippled him.

Sliver
2010-01-31, 03:08 AM
Most people ignore encumberance? Huh. I usually give it a lot of attention, since a) I want to throw any handicap I can find at my players and b) I want to throw any handicap I can find at myself. Encumberance can work hell on your AC and Check Penalties, too. I was building a sheet for a fellow player and had to take away like half his equipment because having a Medium load practically crippled him.

Unless you wear full plate.. Then as long as it is under max load, your cool..

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 03:13 AM
Only because all of the cripplage that a heavy load gives you is already given by the full plate.

Now that I think about it, I should houserule that heavy loads and armor penalties stack...

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:15 AM
Only because all of the cripplage that a heavy load gives you is already given by the full plate.

Now that I think about it, I should houserule that heavy loads and armor penalties stack...

-12 to checks! -24 for Swim! :smallbiggrin:

With a tower shield, that changes to -22, -44.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 03:17 AM
Go tie 300 pounds to your back and try to swim. In full plate armor. You can use scuba gear, if only so you'll survive to tell me how well you did.

With that much stuff, you're not swimming. You're WALKING.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:18 AM
Go tie 300 pounds to your back and try to swim. In full plate armor. You can use scuba gear, if only so you'll survive to tell me how well you did.

Cast enervation and bestow curse on me first. I think it'll be too easy otherwise.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 03:54 AM
I think I'd be at a disadvantage to begin with, using my below-average Str score.
Also, I love my Pally and his inability to make a Swim check on a natural 20 (he has 115 pounds of gear and 16 Str, giving him a -20). Hurrah for the ability to strip down to my boxers/undergarments!

suryasm
2010-01-31, 05:34 AM
Run is a bad feat to take at any time, unless you expect your GM to throw things at you that you cannot handle.

Taking Run to close with the enemy though, is dumb, unless the rest of your party takes the feat so they can keep up.

Really, the only situation where Run is a good idea is if the opposition spends a lot of time escaping from you.... in which case its probably easier all round to have the spellcaster keep Slow or Hold Monster prepared.

Sliver
2010-01-31, 05:40 AM
Run is a bad feat to take at any time, unless you expect your GM to throw things at you that you cannot handle.

If your DM plans to throw something at you that you cannot handle, then Run won't really help.. Either he plans it as a plot point for you to be saved or captured and the opposition will be higher level and prepared, or he wants you to die. If having Run is what changes your situation from dead to alive, it means the rest of the party is screwed if they don't have an escape method..

So no, it's not a good feat even then..

Harperfan7
2010-01-31, 05:45 AM
If you take run as a feat, you will have uses for it. Mostly though, its a feat that should exist, but is not really for pcs, unless you are playing in a solo campaign or a short campaign with a specific theme.

Still, I love it, so when I play characters I really like (like scouts), I tend to take run eventually.

lesser_minion
2010-01-31, 05:50 AM
I think I'd be at a disadvantage to begin with, using my below-average Str score.
Also, I love my Pally and his inability to make a Swim check on a natural 20 (he has 115 pounds of gear and 16 Str, giving him a -20). Hurrah for the ability to strip down to my boxers/undergarments!

Actually, you just double your armour check penalty now. -1 for every 5lb carried went out of fashion pretty quickly.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 05:59 AM
Actually, you just double your armour check penalty now. -1 for every 5lb carried went out of fashion pretty quickly.
I suppose I should have mentioned it was 3.0, not 3.5, huh?

Rasman
2010-01-31, 06:57 AM
http://www.cotygonzales.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/TrapLARGE.jpg

well said...well...said...

PhoenixRivers
2010-01-31, 06:57 AM
Taking Run to close with the enemy though, is dumb, unless the rest of your party takes the feat so they can keep up.

Really, the only situation where Run is a good idea is if the opposition spends a lot of time escaping from you.... in which case its probably easier all round to have the spellcaster keep Slow or Hold Monster prepared.

Not true.

Any round you take the run action is a round that you:
Lose dex to AC
Cannot make AoO's

It really cramps your ability to safely close. Double moves (or single moves, with readied actions to move to cover) are the more effective way to close.

Grumman
2010-01-31, 07:29 AM
Not true.

Any round you take the run action is a round that you:
Lose dex to AC
Only if you don't have the Run feat. Not that I would, but it makes it a less suicidal option.

Reaper_Monkey
2010-01-31, 08:12 AM
Run is an very underpowered feat. If you really want it though for flavour reasons (and just logic reasons) then ask if you can slap a 10ft speed bonus whilst in light on it too (that stacks with barbarians speed boost). It's now useful and makes more sense! :smallsmile:

lesser_minion
2010-01-31, 10:02 AM
I suppose I should have mentioned it was 3.0, not 3.5, huh?

Most people noticed, I think.

But you don't have to play "all 3.0" or all "3.5". Just take the small number of positive changes 3.5 made and adopt them, rejecting all of the stupid changes 3.5 made (except for the "temporarily stupid" ones like renaming Change Self).

Grommen
2010-01-31, 10:48 AM
Absolutely not. When it comes to running, there are only three speeds: faster than the enemy, the same speed as the enemy, and slower than the enemy. As a barbarian you're already faster than infantry, and Run isn't enough to keep you from being slower than cavalry.

You forgot the elusive 4th speed "Faster than the slowest guy in the party". As long as your not the slow guy your ok.

Deepblue706
2010-01-31, 05:19 PM
Run is a good feat if you're getting it for free as a Desert Half-Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertHalfOrcs), or you're playing with flaws. 'Cause then you can get that feat from CWar that lets you make up to a 90-degree turn while charging, and you didn't have to invest as much to get it.

In your case? I'd say it's uh...better than Toughness. But still pretty poor.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-31, 05:27 PM
That, on top of letting them get full plate by second level, is part of a long list of mistakes I've made as a novice DM. As a result I've started recording the time gap between all significant locations using every possible means of transportation, just so I know what it'll take to catch those buggers.



Was it Armor of Rage?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#armorofRage

That is within WBL (only 1800 gp after all). More of a level 3 item though.

JohnnyCancer
2010-01-31, 05:28 PM
It's good for recreating all the running from the Lord of the Rings?

Temotei
2010-01-31, 05:42 PM
It's good for recreating all the running from the Lord of the Rings?

Or in making Twilight vampires. :smallyuk:

Pyro_Azer
2010-01-31, 05:50 PM
I don't know if it has been metioned yet but the panther mask (from MIC) gives you the run feat as long as you are in light or no armor and you are unencumbered.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 05:56 PM
Was it Armor of Rage?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#armorofRage

That is within WBL (only 1800 gp after all). More of a level 3 item though.

Just straight up, masterwork fullplate. And screw WBL. The only reason he got that much money is because I threw a handful of undead nobles at him. IMO, you should be feeding off scraps for the first 5 levels of your adventuring career.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 06:01 PM
Just straight up, masterwork fullplate. And screw WBL. The only reason he got that much money is because I threw a handful of undead nobles at him. IMO, you should be feeding off scraps for the first 5 levels of your adventuring career.

After they level to six though...+1 mithral shadow chain shirt!

Eurus
2010-01-31, 06:07 PM
If your DM plans to throw something at you that you cannot handle, then Run won't really help.. Either he plans it as a plot point for you to be saved or captured and the opposition will be higher level and prepared, or he wants you to die. If having Run is what changes your situation from dead to alive, it means the rest of the party is screwed if they don't have an escape method..

So no, it's not a good feat even then..

What if you're a dwarf? Maybe the rest of the party can escape, but you with your feeble 20 foot speed can't? :smallbiggrin:

Heliomance
2010-01-31, 06:10 PM
How about all of the above?

Invisible flying teleporting barbarian! :smallbiggrin:

Needs less barbarian - you're losing caster levels there.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 06:11 PM
Needs less barbarian - you're losing caster levels there.

Who says you need caster levels?

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 08:10 PM
After they level to six though...+1 mithral shadow chain shirt!

Not really. My opinion of the optimal shininess level of 20th level characters is probably on par with most people's ideas of 10th level characters.

Until you hit somewhere around 15th level in my campaigns, the governments can and will find a way to put your uppity adventure butt in your place. After that? Well then the Immortals take interest in you and THEY put you in your place.

Always a bigger fish. No hero parades for you!

Temotei
2010-01-31, 08:11 PM
Not really. My opinion of the optimal shininess level of 20th level characters is probably on par with most people's ideas of 10th level characters.

Until you hit somewhere around 15th level in my campaigns, the governments can and will find a way to put your uppity adventure butt in your place. After that? Well then the Immortals take interest in you and THEY put you in your place.

Always a bigger fish. No hero parades for you!

Then you get epic spellcasting, and you cast spells that end the game. Literally end the game. No saves.

Harperfan7
2010-01-31, 08:13 PM
Not really. My opinion of the optimal shininess level of 20th level characters is probably on par with most people's ideas of 10th level characters.

Until you hit somewhere around 15th level in my campaigns, the governments can and will find a way to put your uppity adventure butt in your place. After that? Well then the Immortals take interest in you and THEY put you in your place.

Always a bigger fish. No hero parades for you!

What, no government/immortal sponsors? What kind of lame adventurers populate your world?

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 08:13 PM
There's one good use for Run; if you're using Action Points, there's the option of being able to acquire a feat for a turn by spending one. Do that and you'll have it just the one time you need to run amidst a group of hostiles, or catch that slippery Goblin.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 08:14 PM
That's what DM powers are for. As in "Error 404: Game-Ending Spell Not Found." Oh, and 20th level is a level cap for mortals. Impossible to gain levels after that.

The PCs are my bitch and if they ever forget that they will die horribly.

I'm a jerk DM, I know. But I don't like wish-fulfilment fantasies.


What, no government/immortal sponsors? What kind of lame adventurers populate your world?

Perhaps. But the people sponsoring you will always be more powerful than you. Get too powerful and they'll try to remove you. Beat them, and someone more powerful fills the vaccuum.

When you crawl all the way to the top of the Immortal foodchain? Well, then there's dragons, which are on par with the gods of most games, then the gods, which are patently unkillable.

holywhippet
2010-01-31, 09:00 PM
I suppose I should have mentioned it was 3.0, not 3.5, huh?

3.0? In that case you'd be better off with boots of striding and springing. In 3.5 they just add +10 feet per round to your movement as well as the jump bonus. In 3.0 they double your land movement speed - I've often wondered what you could do with these on a levelled up monk who has the shot on the run feat (was that in 3.0?).

icefractal
2010-01-31, 09:38 PM
I'm a jerk DM, I know. But I don't like wish-fulfilment fantasies.Sounds like a bit of a power-trip fantasy for your NPCs, actually. I'm not going to say that "you are the scum of the world, striving to obtain luxuries like a rusty dagger" is automatically a bad campaign idea - if the players are on board. But why even go to level 20 then? You may as well stick with levels 1-3, if that's the power level you actually want.

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 09:46 PM
Sounds like a bit of a power-trip fantasy for your NPCs, actually. I'm not going to say that "you are the scum of the world, striving to obtain luxuries like a rusty dagger" is automatically a bad campaign idea - if the players are on board. But why even go to level 20 then? You may as well stick with levels 1-3, if that's the power level you actually want.

They won't stay scum of the world -- they're just gonna be that way nger than the books expect them to. Anyone capable of even gaining the interest of the Immortals is almost certaintly going to be a badass by mortal standards, but mortals get kinda irrelevent when the Immortals come into play.

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 10:43 PM
3.0? In that case you'd be better off with boots of striding and springing. In 3.5 they just add +10 feet per round to your movement as well as the jump bonus. In 3.0 they double your land movement speed - I've often wondered what you could do with these on a levelled up monk who has the shot on the run feat (was that in 3.0?).
-check PHB- Yup, Shot on the Run is in here.
And, with Boots of Striding and Springing... Well, y'see the bit about not outrunning cavalry?
Yeah, you'll be making cavalry jealous at level 9. You'll be able to move normally as fast as they charge at level 18. That's right, your normal move will equal their charge. Your run will be more than double theirs, and you don't need some feat to do that.
Now, if you can use a longbow, you'll be able to snipe cavalry that are charging you. While outpacing them.

Viletta Vadim
2010-01-31, 10:52 PM
Run may not be a very good feat, but stack it with enough stuff and it can be fun. I'm quite fond of Sonic the Hedgehog, a Duskling with Sapphire Sprint and all the speed boosts you can squeeze in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-01, 12:13 AM
Run may not be a very good feat, but stack it with enough stuff and it can be fun. I'm quite fond of Sonic the Hedgehog, a Duskling with Sapphire Sprint and all the speed boosts you can squeeze in.If you're going to do that, might as well go Chuck. Even after the Footsteps of the Divine stealth-nerf, he can still go at a pretty good clip around the world.

Person_Man
2010-02-01, 10:11 AM
I would say that not only is Run a waste of a feat, but that in most cases having a high movement speed (above 40) tends to be pointless. First, if you're playing with miniatures, then range tends to be limited by the size of your game table and/or map. These tend to be 40 hexes/squares wide, and enemies rarely just stay at the opposite end without moving toward you. Second, if you are indoors your movement is limited by walls. Third, it's pretty easy to get access to pounce, free movement, and/or a lot of reach. Fourth, melee combatants tend to clump together, making movement speed above 20 a non-issue after the first round. And finally, most strong builds (full casters, psionics, binder, incarnum) have good ranged options (with some ToB builds and Tier 4 or lower classes being the exception). So unless I happen to be playing a Knight, I don't even pay attention to my movement speed.

Ashiel
2010-02-01, 10:58 AM
That's what DM powers are for. As in "Error 404: Game-Ending Spell Not Found." Oh, and 20th level is a level cap for mortals. Impossible to gain levels after that.

The PCs are my bitch and if they ever forget that they will die horribly.

I'm a jerk DM, I know. But I don't like wish-fulfilment fantasies.

I think I'd die horribly, quickly, and be thankful for it so I could go do something more interesting. But yeah, why should anyone have fun playing a game? :smalltongue:

Back on Topic:

I would say that not only is Run a waste of a feat, but that in most cases having a high movement speed (above 40) tends to be pointless. First, if you're playing with miniatures, then range tends to be limited by the size of your game table and/or map. These tend to be 40 hexes/squares wide, and enemies rarely just stay at the opposite end without moving toward you. Second, if you are indoors your movement is limited by walls. Third, it's pretty easy to get access to pounce, free movement, and/or a lot of reach. Fourth, melee combatants tend to clump together, making movement speed above 20 a non-issue after the first round. And finally, most strong builds (full casters, psionics, binder, incarnum) have good ranged options (with some ToB builds and Tier 4 or lower classes being the exception). So unless I happen to be playing a Knight, I don't even pay attention to my movement speed.

I agree with Person Man here. This is actually one of the reasons I'm not entirely fond of miniatures versus a piece of paper or dry-erase board you can mark everyone down on quickly. One is great for tight dungeon skirmishes, the other is more versatile and lends itself well to varying degrees of scale. That still doesn't change the fact that the run feat is sadly less that stellar.

I'm more fond of Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought) since it increases your speed by a flat +10ft while in light or medium armor and stacks with barbarian fast movement. It requires you to be psionic but that's not difficult (you can be psionic from your race, having a level in any psionic class, or merely taking a feat that grants you power points).

That being said, it stacks with Run, so if you're really set on having run, then it might make for a nice addition to your speed-arsenal. :smallwink:

Food for thought. :smallsmile: