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View Full Version : Appropriate CRs for Unconventional Groups [3.5]



Soonerdj
2010-01-31, 02:42 AM
So in my campaign I have a very *eclectic* group of evil doers but they lack anything in the way of healing or BSFers.

Is there any way I can figure out the CR for such a group.
My rules for the campaign can be found at Evil Rules (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AUL3IPckhcjQZG56cHMyeF8wZGRrYnR0Zmo&hl=en)

So far my players (in rank of anticipated strength) are:

1. Wizard - Focused mainly on buffs and battlefield control
2. Master Thrower // Ninja - More attacks then knows what to do with
3. Monk // Paladin - Grapple Specialist focusing on Charge - Pounce - Grapple combo
4. Dread Necro or Pale Master - Focusing on cysts spells.
5. Spike Chain Rogue - Still haven't gotten to browse the char sheet so I'll leave this one as a wild card.

So far I have them fighting Lvl 8 mooks with CL in things such as swashbuckler or one dimensional characters. But what is the best way to determine CR?

Sorry if this to much of an imposition and thanks :smallsmile:

Another_Poet
2010-01-31, 03:03 AM
No imposition at all.

First off, everyone's going to be asking what level they are. That's important info to share.

Second, you ask how to determine CR but that's not quite what you need to know. A CR 4 monster is CR 4 whether it faces one 1st level fighter, two 20th druids, or the entire Order of the Stick. What it seems you want to know is what EL (encounter level) of monsters you should throw at them to make a fair fight.

EL can be figured here (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm). Put in the number of monsters and their respective CR's on the left and hit "calculate." If you enter the number of party members and their levels on the right it will also estimate how hard the battle will be and show how much XP per person is earned.

Now to address your actual problem....

The bad news is that there is no quick easy fix to balance encounters against a party who lacks a healer. It's not as easy as just using EL 7 instead of EL 8 against an 8th level party (for example). The party will walk all over such an encounter and then still be unable to heal. In other words, the party is not actually weaker in terms of their damage output, battlefield options or survivability in one encounter. Where they do suffer is handling multiple encounters back-to-back.

I would suggest limiting yourself to 2 encounters per in-game day rather than the standard 4. Assuming they have lay on hands, cure potions, a wand of CLW, etc etc they still have the resources to heal up and go to another encounter. On a tough day, maybe 4 (instead of 5 or 6).

Other people will advise you to throw standard encounters at them without changing them. If they choose to travel without a healer, they may need to learn to adapt their own tactics and find creative ways to survive.

The other complicating factor is party size. You have 5 people rather than 4 which means that your players can handle more. This might help offset the lack of healing. If you make encounters balanced for a normal 4-person party, an abnormal 5-person party should be able to handle them.

And last, your party is not missing a Big Stupid Fighter. A Monk/Paladin charge-pounce-grapple build is a Big Stupid Fighter build. And with the damage-output ninja and the hold-the-pass spiked chain guy, they are set on melee. A Dread Necro and buff/batman wizard round out a very powerful party. If there is any party I would trust without a healer it is the one you've described.

So yeah, balance normal encounters and they should be fine.

ap

Lunix Vandal
2010-01-31, 03:11 AM
The relevant SRD page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) suggests that a party of 4 gestalted Level 8 characters should be able to handle (multiple) CL 9 or 10 encounters, depending on whether monsters are save-or-suck-heavy or not (irrespectively). Between the 5-man party, higher-than-average point-buy, and partial gestalt, this sounds about right to me for your party as well. I would play with the numbers at Pen, Paper, & Pixel's d20 Encounter Calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm), aiming for sets of monsters with an encounter level of around 9.5, give or take one or two depending on intended difficulty. Ignore the calculator's "Difficulty" and "% of Total" lines, though -- they won't apply since you're running intentionally tougher-than-average encounters with stronger-than-average PCs.

Conveniently, if you're keeping track of XP, inputting the number and ECLs of the PCs in the right-hand dropdowns will have it calculate the XP value (per person) of the encounter as well. PP&P also offers a Monster Filter (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20monsterfilter/) that lets you search through all of the monsters in the SRD, filtered by CR, alignment, size, type, et cetera.

Of course, this all may have to be adjusted (or outright thrown out the window) by what actually happens in-game, depending on whether you perceive each encounter as being "too easy" or "too hard" as you run it.

Heh. Ninja'd by an opposing viewpoint. This really boils down to a "you're the DM, make a judgement call" situation, methinks.

Soonerdj
2010-01-31, 03:17 AM
Thanks for the informative response - For Clarity's sake I'll include the rules her as well


Level 8 party with a 40 point buy (extreme I know but this is intended to be a difficult adventure)
Using partial gestalt guidelines i.e. the full write up is on the google docs page

House ruled in are the reserve hp system from Iron Heroes and SA immunity reducing the damage by 1/2 rather than eliminating it.

So what I really should be asking is, How do I figure out the CR of mobs that I make myself?

For example, the first encounter is 3x Swashbuckler

Lvl 8 Swashbuckler
HP: 45 Reflex:5 Fort:6 Will:5
BaB: +11/+6 .Damage: 1d6+1 15-20 x2
AC: 16 -T13 -FF14
Skills: 9 in Bal, Jump, Tmbl, UR, EA, Swim.
Init: +6 (2 from Dex 4 from Imp. Init)
Misc: +4 bonus on flanking
Equip: Mwk Rapier, Mwk Studded Leather

Do I just try and judge how dangerous they are or is their a more "scientific" method available?

FishAreWet
2010-01-31, 03:31 AM
Gestalt + any level of optimization means that CR is useless. Trial and error. Make the first fight mutable, have enemies who can either join the fight or run away and judge based on the first fight.

Soonerdj
2010-01-31, 03:56 AM
Gestalt + any level of optimization means that CR is useless. Trial and error. Make the first fight mutable, have enemies who can either join the fight or run away and judge based on the first fight.

I guess I'll have to go for the gnome beguiler enemy covering the battlefield in fog like I originally planned.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-31, 08:35 AM
Just get the paladin or rogue to stock up on Wands of Lesser Vigor. That should work as long as you're not going from full to dead in one combat.

imperialspectre
2010-01-31, 01:22 PM
The sad thing is, if they'd all just take Tomb-Tainted Soul, they'd have unlimited out-of-combat healing from the dread necro. Solves your problems right there.

In fact, if you're particularly worried about their lack of healing, just declare that prolonged exposure to the necromancer has given them that feat. It's basically just a reverse of the positive-negative energy bit, so it's not likely to make the group particularly overpowered.