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Lysander
2010-01-31, 02:50 AM
What are all the ways of permanently increasing a character's power that you can think of that don't require them to earn xp or have +LA? Items or anything else not permanently part of the character doesn't count. Something requiring someone else to spend xp is ok, as are items that just give you free xp.

Here are a few methods:

Wish for higher stats.

Permanencied spells.

Being turned into a free willed undead (but is it really still you? let's leave that to the philosophers)

Being turned into a Worm That Walks. Gathering of Maggots makes anyone an epic level monster.

My favorite: Having a psion more than eight levels higher than you cast Mind Seed on you. Free levels! This destroys your original personality, but you could then be Mindraped back to your original self, but now with psionic powers.

Epic Spell Reflection, Epic Repulsion, or Eternal Freedom cast on you.

Get reincarnated into a better body (but you'd have to die so meh)

Stat enhancing magic manuals.

This is a stretch, but Helm of Opposite alignment can be argued to increase your power if your goody two shoes ethics are holding you back.

Deck of Many Things, if you're lucky.

Read Sutra of Tranquil Thought artifact (if you're psionic)

Get PoA into similar enough but better species

Flux Slime explosion: random chance can give permanent Iron Body or if you're very old Reverse Aging effectively doubles your life span

Get eidetic memory of much of your life with repeated castings of Modify Memory. Ok, not great, but it has no xp cost.

Survive various things that only affect you the first time you encounter them.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 02:56 AM
DM giving you free feats, skill bonuses, etc.

mostlyharmful
2010-01-31, 03:02 AM
increase WBL, magic enhancement, DM fiat, changing types/subtypes/etc, grafts, minionmancy, ingame rewards (castles, titles, reputation, etc..), getting rid of curses or negative effects.

Koury
2010-01-31, 03:04 AM
Would flaws count?

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:06 AM
Would flaws count?

Funny how flaws are too good. :smallcool:

Koury
2010-01-31, 03:09 AM
I mean because they give you feats :smallbiggrin:

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:12 AM
I mean because they give you feats :smallbiggrin:

Exactly. :smallwink:

Koury
2010-01-31, 03:14 AM
*headdesk* Comprehension fail on my part. :smallsigh:

Siegel
2010-01-31, 03:16 AM
Magical Locations

Koury
2010-01-31, 03:18 AM
Oh, oh, pick me!

Affiliations!

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 03:19 AM
Kensai Signature Weapon: An Army.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:20 AM
Does Leadership count? You could get a better cohort and more followers...

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 03:21 AM
Or just get followers in-game, mechanics-free. Roleplaying is cool like that.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:22 AM
Or just get followers in-game, mechanics-free. Roleplaying is cool like that.

True that, but then they're not tied to you like rocks to a drowning man's foot when you've thrown him off your yacht so the coppers don't find the body.

Soonerdj
2010-01-31, 03:22 AM
Would stealing, receiving, or buying spellbooks to increase spells known count or would that violate the no item clause?

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 03:24 AM
True that, but then they're not tied to you like rocks to a drowning man's foot when you've thrown him off your yacht so the coppers don't find the body.

That is quite possibly the most confusing metaphor I've ever heard.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 03:32 AM
That is quite possibly the most confusing metaphor I've ever heard.

That's a simile. :smallwink:

peacenlove
2010-01-31, 03:53 AM
Grafts
Feats gained via Taint or devotion to elder evils.
Embrace/shun chaos scrolls

frogspawner
2010-01-31, 04:31 AM
Upgrade to a skill-based game system, without these "XP" of which you speak... :smallwink:

absolmorph
2010-01-31, 06:03 AM
Kensai Signature Weapon: An Army.
Enchant it with Throwing and Returning.

Dhavaer
2010-01-31, 06:52 AM
Enchant it with Throwing and Returning.

Don't signature weapons need to be masterwork? Where do you get a masterwork army from?

Hallavast
2010-01-31, 10:16 AM
Don't signature weapons need to be masterwork? Where do you get a masterwork army from?

Sparta, obviously.

Lysander
2010-01-31, 10:54 AM
Does Leadership count? You could get a better cohort and more followers...

Just taking Leadership wouldn't count since you'd be spending a feat. If you could somehow permanently get the leadership feat for free that would count.



Would stealing, receiving, or buying spellbooks to increase spells known count or would that violate the no item clause?

Hmm. I'd say that's an exception since its such a core class feature. I'd also count something that improves your familiar for instance.

AmberVael
2010-01-31, 11:52 AM
Have someone cast Nar Fiendbond on you. Lost Empires of Faerun, page 32, gives the target the Half-Fiend template. Duration: Instantaneous, so it never goes away.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-31, 11:57 AM
Being turned into a Worm That Walks. Gathering of Maggots makes anyone an epic level monster.

That has LA so that fails.

Being old Age while a Dragon Wrought Kobold. Grants Epic feat acquisition and bonuses to mental stats.

Zeta Kai
2010-01-31, 11:57 AM
Well, considering that theoretical optimization can create Pun-Pun at level 1, any stunt that the Big P can pull off should be considered (IE use of a Candle of Invocation, the summoning of Pazuzu, & various Sarrukh-flavored cheese).

The Glyphstone
2010-01-31, 12:08 PM
That has LA so that fails.



Worm That Walks does not have a listed LA. If you can get your DM to supply an epic caster for Gathering of Maggots, it's fine.

Starbuck_II
2010-01-31, 12:17 PM
Technically, a non-epic casters can do it for ya. You get 1% chance per unused slot.
So you could do it at any level. You just need a spellcaster with limited wish, etc to do ritual.

Lysander
2010-01-31, 01:56 PM
Have someone cast Nar Fiendbond on you. Lost Empires of Faerun, page 32, gives the target the Half-Fiend template. Duration: Instantaneous, so it never goes away.

Fiendbond has a +4 level adjustment though.

Three more:

Mantle of the Icy Soul gives any creature the cold subtype. Double damage from fire though so its a trade-off.

Wow. Axiomatic Creature gives any lawful or neutral material plane creature a smite chaos attack, darkvision, telepathy with other axiomatic creatures, spell resistance and lots of types of energy resistance. Plus, it makes them prettier. Just costs 10,000gp and 1,000xp from the caster.

Rogue's Dice (epic artifact) can give free xp.

Ashiel
2010-02-01, 10:29 AM
In the theme of improving without XP, I would say adding templates through various methods would qualify (like the aforementioned half-fiend template). Mainly because if you're not gaining XP, then your LA means diddly.

Think about it like this. If your game is going from levels 1-20, and the DM says you can keep your characters going, but no one can level anymore (though might still gain XP for XP cost effects), then there's no reason not to become a half fiend, or a lich, or a half-dragon, or add any number of +LA races or effects because they're not going to slow down your progression.

Hypothetically, yes, these a ways of improving without ever earning any experience points (even if they would slow down improving through experience points); so I'd say they stood for the topic.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-01, 10:35 AM
Just taking Leadership wouldn't count since you'd be spending a feat. If you could somehow permanently get the leadership feat for free that would count.

1. Visit magical location.
2. Chaos shuffle.
3. Go to 1.

sofawall
2010-02-01, 10:37 AM
Sparta, obviously.

Also exactly what I thought.

Ormagoden
2010-02-01, 10:37 AM
Sparta, obviously.

I just choked on a pop tart.

I never thought the combination of blueberry filling and Greece would be my downfall.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-01, 10:40 AM
Technically, a non-epic casters can do it for ya. You get 1% chance per unused slot.
So you could do it at any level. You just need a spellcaster with limited wish, etc to do ritual.

A level 20 focused specialist wizard actually would have pretty decent odds, no? You're probably pushing 70 spell slots by that point, presuming you have a good casting stat modifier, and there are other tricks to boost it higher.

Lysander
2010-02-15, 01:29 PM
Just found another one: becoming a Divine Proxy. Basically a god loans some of their power to you for as long as they want to, granting you the powers of a rank 1 demigod.

taltamir
2010-02-15, 02:14 PM
Would stealing, receiving, or buying spellbooks to increase spells known count or would that violate the no item clause?

oh, certainly it counts... this is a big part of why wizards are considered overpowered. the assumption is you have infinite spells scribed...

speaking of scribing. Now, it costs 100gp per spell level to write it in your book, and 50gp per spell level for the privilege of copying it from someone's spellbook.

Well, you can acquire access in other ways, and you can eliminate the cost of scribing with a blessed book.
A blessed book costs 12500gp. You can sell it for half price, 6250gp. plus 50gp per page of spells scribed inside.

first, the upgrade:
1. buy a blessed book (12500gp)
2. copy all your spells to it. (free)
3. sell your old mundane spellbooks for 50gp per page covering the cost of the blessed book.
4. when you level up, put your "new" spells in mundane spellbooks, copy them for free into blessed book, then sell the mundane spellbooks.

Second, the money:
1. buy a spare blessed book for 12500gp
2. fill it with 1000 pages worth of spells (free) giving it resale value of 56250gp
3. sell it, buy a new one, rinse and repeat.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-15, 02:15 PM
I just choked on a pop tart.

I never thought the combination of blueberry filling and Greece would be my downfall.

This belongs in the Humiliating Deaths list.

dspeyer
2010-02-15, 02:38 PM
Just taking Leadership wouldn't count since you'd be spending a feat. If you could somehow permanently get the leadership feat for free that would count.

Alternatively, if you already have leadership, swapping your cohort and followers for more useful ones. Encourage your healer cohort to retire and recruit a cleric of the same level. Send away your fighter followers and recruit warblades (WRT abuse optional).

Do the same with a familiar or animal companion (though these vary in power less).

You can get similar effects from hirelings.

Thrawn183
2010-02-15, 02:59 PM
Lycanthropy. Particularly a were-battletitan dinosaur.

Lysander
2010-02-15, 03:00 PM
I'm going to add everything applicable so far in the most appropriate order onto a level 1 lawful good human sorcerer and see what we get but skipping the random chance stuff (this is more or less a partial recap):

*Gain the powers and higher mental stats of high level psion with Mind Seed, then get Mindraped back to your original personality
*+5 inherent bonus to all stats from tomes/wish
*Read Sutra of tranquil thoughts for bonus power points
*Get mindraped into being evil. Become a Worm That Walks for immortality, SLAs, blindsight, many other horrifying special abilities
*Have the Axiomatic Creature spell cast on you. You're now a bunch of really pretty worms with a smite chaos attack and energy resistance
*Get permanent resistance cast on you
*Get permanent Greater Magic Fang cast on you so your wormy engulf attack gets a +5 enchancement bonus
*Get Epic Repulsion cast on you many times to protect against numerous types of hostile creatures
*Get Eternal Freedom cast on you to gain protection from several spells
*Get Epic Spell Reflection cast on you to gain complete protection from all non-epic spells
*Become a divine proxy for divine rank 1 and all that entails.

So you're an immortal divine worm-monster with psionic powers that's immune to non-epic spells and contact by every hostile monster you can think of.

Zom B
2010-02-15, 03:08 PM
Vow of Poverty

Be somebody's familiar. One of our players created a concept character that was some sort of mephit that belonged to a wizard that had a bunch of "Enhance your familiar"-type feats and buffs that they shared with the familiar. If I remember right, the actual wizard stayed in a backpack with a hole in it so they could use touch spells on the mephit. Also if I remember right, the wizard had access to some curative magic and healed the familiar when necessary.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-15, 03:17 PM
oh, certainly it counts... this is a big part of why wizards are considered overpowered. the assumption is you have infinite spells scribed...

speaking of scribing. Now, it costs 100gp per spell level to write it in your book, and 50gp per spell level for the privilege of copying it from someone's spellbook.

Well, you can acquire access in other ways, and you can eliminate the cost of scribing with a blessed book.
A blessed book costs 12500gp. You can sell it for half price, 6250gp. plus 50gp per page of spells scribed inside.

first, the upgrade:
1. buy a blessed book (12500gp)
2. copy all your spells to it. (free)
3. sell your old mundane spellbooks for 50gp per page covering the cost of the blessed book.
4. when you level up, put your "new" spells in mundane spellbooks, copy them for free into blessed book, then sell the mundane spellbooks.

Second, the money:
1. buy a spare blessed book for 12500gp
2. fill it with 1000 pages worth of spells (free) giving it resale value of 56250gp
3. sell it, buy a new one, rinse and repeat.

Wait, wait...you sell for half value of the total value. You don't automatically get retail value for spell scribing. And by total value, I mean value of the spells, since you no longer have the ability of boccobs, you have a full spellbook.

Selling a 1000pg spellbook is 50k retail, 25k for half. So, net profit from doing this, 12.5k gold.

To do so, this means you've got an equal amount of gold tied up for that long, and you're spending all your time scribing spells from one book to the other, instead of scribing new spells for yourself. Situationally useful perhaps, but slow, not useful until decently leveled, and generally a PITA.

BenTheJester
2010-02-15, 03:30 PM
1) Buy a ladder
2) Split it in two
3) Sell the two halves as 10-ft poles
4) $$$$$