Who is best optimized of the OotS? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Querzis

2010-01-31, 02:50 PM

For the slow people, optimazation is something i detest, for no other reason that DnD is about roleplaying, and no human in history is "optimized" people who optimize their characters in dnd for combat are better off playing diablo2 or world of warcraft or something. in dnd, optimize as little as possible! VIVA LE REVOLUTION!

You do realize that being horribly unoptimized is actually going against roleplay? Lets say you're a guy whos really smart (got a really high int). You're educated but you're very weak physically (low str, dex and con). And then you decide to become a fighter...how is that supposed to make sense? How can you actually explain why someone would choose or be choosed by their master to become a specific class when they just dont have the stats for it? And how could you explain why someone would only learn some really bad feats when they put their lives on the line in those fight? Now I do agree that lots of people take it too far, especially Batman wizard who apparently do nothing else then prepare for their next fight, but creating an optimized character just means that in roleplay, your character want to be good at what he does. Most people want to be good at what they do. Especially if you get killed by monsters if you're not good enough.

Anyway, yeah, Roy is the best optimized in the OOTS. Haley waste lots of sneak attack by attacking with a bow and she doesnt even have a backup melee weapon, V is a blaster (which is cool but not the best choice for a wizard), Durkon almost never use offensive spells, Elan is Elan and Belkar just shoudnt work at all. Seriously, the only reason Belkar is ever able to kill something is because of Rule of Cool and/or Rule of Funny. They are still all well optimized though. Their fighting style really match their character and none of them are really unoptimized (you can whine about blaster wizard as much as you want but it just woudnt be V without some big explosions). The only exception is, once again, Belkar but for some reason it actually work so whatever.

1stEd.Thief

2010-01-31, 02:52 PM

Teddy

2010-01-31, 03:43 PM

Knowledge (Ancient History) 4+ Ranks + Masters degrees

the Feat (Joystick-with-more-than-10-buttons proficiency) + pilot's licenses

These two pairs actually seems somewhat compatible. :smallwink:

Dr.Epic

2010-01-31, 04:00 PM

I'd disagree. First, Xykon has more levels than anyone else so that he wins does not have to mean anything. Second, he's an undead and thus much more resistent than most other characters (HPs and resistences).

Being undead is part of his character build. He chose to be a lich and make himself more powerful.

He's an awesome and probably optimised caster-killer. Basically all his clear victories vs. high-level-foes we saw were against casters of some sort (and he also defeated Fyron, who was a better caster at that time than him).
As Soon as he met a high-level-non-caster he got defeated and only Miko saved him from going actually to zero HPs.

Sure he's high level but so were the two casters that were soul spliced to V. Look at how easily he took him/her down. And as for Soon, he fought him plus a few dozen of his ghost pals: one verses several dozen.

Thanatosia

2010-01-31, 04:45 PM

Dunno about build opitimzation, but Roy certainly seemed to roll high enough stats all around to make me want to carefuly watch his player roll any futher characters ^_^

Seriously, he seems to have maxed out strength, very good constitution, at least passable dexterity, good charisma, an int score nearly as high as Vs, and a rather high wis score. Something fishy going on there!

Teddy

2010-01-31, 05:01 PM

TheWerdna

2010-01-31, 05:12 PM

Optimization is not that big a deal in D&D, effectiveness is. All you need to be is optimized enough to be effective. I really hate all the talk about optimization and how its the end all be all. Characters don't need to be completely optimized, just effective enough to not suck.

SoC175

2010-01-31, 05:20 PM

He's an awesome and probably optimised caster-killer. Basically all his clear victories vs. high-level-foes we saw were against casters of some sort (and he also defeated Fyron, who was a better caster at that time than him).
As Soon as he met a high-level-non-caster he got defeated and only Miko saved him from going actually to zero HPs.
Actually every of Xykon's "anti-caster" tricks he used in said victories would be equally effective against any high-level non-caster. He lost to Soon because he couldn't energy drain him. If Soon were a high level deadless caster he would have defeated Xykon too.

derfenrirwolv

2010-01-31, 05:42 PM

I'm going to assume that, for the sake of discussion, that in oots someone's race is beyond their control (despite what the half ogre with the chain might think)

Also please remember that oots is core with a smattering of other books. Yes, x prestige class or spell would be great.. but it may not be available.

Roy: Fighting with a 2 handed weapon, power attack and cleave is the way to go. We don't know if he has anything beyond that. His high int wis and cha scores could be going to waste if he'd picked another class, but as a fighter he's doing fairly well.

Haley: Inso far as you can be useful being a rogue at high levels where nothing is sneak attackable she's not bad. I know people suggest going 2 weapon fighting for lots of sneak attacks, but thats fairly hard to set up a situation where you can sneak attack and full attack at the same time. Having a high initiative and using bows is a good way to regularly get an attack or even a full sneak attack before your opponent can move.

Elan: Horrible. Doesn't play to a bards strengths of charming or buffing. Specialized in illusions, but lacks the brainpower to make use of them.

V: For the encounters the OOtS Dming tosses at them, evocation isn't a bad school. With a large number of low level monsters being able to drop 5 of them to half hit points is better than picking off 1 with a save or die spell. The problem is, of course, that V is a rather optimized 3.O wizard. Banning conjuration and necromancy made sense in 3.0. They were the smaller schools, and conjuration consisted of summoning monsters (which a cleric can do) and summoning missles to throw (which is rather pointless when you're an evoker)

Has Empower spell and quicken spell, for his level and the school he has they're pretty much your best options.

Belkar: Gah. The only thing he did right was pick up some sort of pounce attack (or "forgets) you can't use a full attack after you move). Other than that, he's talking an xp penalty for his level of barbarian, doesn't have enough wisdom to cast spells, never put ranks in survival, spot, or listen, and only recently picked up a sub optimal animal companion.. in other words, he should have been a fighter , because he gains nothing by being a ranger except a loss in hp.

Durkon: The standard cleric that tries to be a fighter. Would probably do better with direct attack spells. We don't know what, if any, feats he has (because if he did we'd be able to tell him apart from the other dwarves)

For his class, Roy is the most optimized.
Overall, probably V.

Dancing_Fox

2010-01-31, 05:47 PM

I'd say Xykon. He killed practically the entire Sapphire Guard with a bouncy ball and nearly killed soul splice V.

My thought was that the original poster's question was directed more at the members of the Order of the Stick per se, rather than the whole OotS universe.

Forbiddenwar

2010-01-31, 07:03 PM

Haley's never demonstrated UMD and she doesn't dual-wield, so she's definitely not optimized.

?? Wouldn't sinking several feats just so she can use two weapons at -4 to hit and only if she never moves be even less optimized? Are you thinking of a ranger? Sorry, but could you enlighten me?

He's an awesome and probably optimised caster-killer. Basically all his clear victories vs. high-level-foes we saw were against casters of some sort (and he also defeated Fyron, who was a better caster at that time than him).
As Soon as he met a high-level-non-caster he got defeated and only Miko saved him from going actually to zero HPs.

SOD

Except he didn't beat Fryon with his build or with his class or his choice of spells. he beat him with an unmodified str using an improvised weapon. A DM Fiat, if you will.

Harperfan7

2010-01-31, 08:36 PM

deuxhero

2010-01-31, 08:38 PM

My thought was that the original poster's question was directed more at the members of the Order of the Stick per se, rather than the whole OotS universe.

Afterall, we all know it would be Mr.Windstaff in that case.

drengnikrafe

2010-01-31, 08:53 PM

On optimization:
I believe that there is a distinct line somewhere between reasonable optimization (High Int, low Str, becomes a wizard instead of a fighter) and cheese optimization (Wizard 5 / IotSV 7 / Fatespinner 5 / somerandomoverpoweredprestigeclass 3... or... y'know, something that actually works/is legal.). The first is extremely helpful to roleplaying, because your character is in a field that comes naturally to him. The second takes a bit more work to make sense. It's not impossible, it's just tricky. On the other hand, when you get it to make sense, you have a rich and wonderful backstory. The problem is when people don't bother to justify the prestige class they just took, but instead take it because it's powerful.

On the original topic:
Durkon functions well in combat in emergencies. That is to say, he has a powerful build but only uses it when he needs it, so that the DM doesn't pull out stronger monsters expecting him to do so. Roy rolled very well at stat creation, I imagine, and since has become a fairly reasonable fighter. Elan picked a prestige class that is useful to his skills, which was a good choice. Haley seems like a classic utility rogue to me. She's alright at combat, but she shines a lot more out of it, making her very useful in her own light. Belker... I refuse to comment on, because I never liked him, and so anything I say will be horribly biased. Vaarsuvius has a class in a high tier, and took a simple pathway. If I had to guess, I would say (if the OOTS had PCs controlling them) that Roy's rolled really well, and went fighter to break the archetype, Haley's anticipated traps, Durkon's didn't want to play a cleric but got roped into it, Belker's wanted to make a destructive creature, Elan's wanted to try a bard but got tired of doing very little, and Vaarsuvius's never played a wizard before.

Now, I'm not here to debate whether or not there are PCs there, I believe that road has been done to death and decided against. The point here is... umm... I'm not sure I have a point, except "Durkon". I'm tempted to say Roy, but Good Rolls =/= Optimization.

Dr.Epic

2010-01-31, 09:00 PM

As far as the Order is concerned, V is considered the most powerful.

Think about it, who ends up killing the toughest monsters?

The chimera?
Both black dragons?
The titanium elementals?
The giant devil/demon?
Anything else I'm forgetting.

It doesn't mean she is optimized, but she is the most powerful.

Afterall, we all know it would be Mr.Windstaff in that case.

It's more that wizards and druids are broken at higher level. You can't really optimize them poorly once you hit level 10.

drengnikrafe

2010-01-31, 09:11 PM

It's more that wizards and druids are broken at higher level. You can't really optimize them poorly once you hit level 10.

I suspect that you are mistaking brokenness and raw power for optimization.
Yes, wizards and druids are more inherently powerful at higher levels. However, if you have n levels in wizard, and you picked spells that looked really cool, didn't bother to get a familiar (or let yours die, and never got a new one), and somehow forgot to pick up feats, you're doing a worse job of optimizing than the figther/barbarian who picked up the right chain of feats to deal decent damage while staying alive. You may be able to beat him in a fight 9 times out of 10, but you did a worse job of optimizing your character.

spectralphoenix

2010-01-31, 10:13 PM

Just to push the topic a bit further off track:

On optimization: there are 20 people on this board who can tell you some of the best ways to optimize characters, yet these same people have Knowledge (D&D 3.x) 6+ ranks, Knowledge (Ancient History) 4+ Ranks, the Feat (Joystick-with-more-than-10-buttons proficiency) etc etc etc...
There's a difference between having a hobby and being able to do something professionally. Someone with ranks in the Craft skill can run a forge,and someone with ranks in a profession can perform that profession competently. I doubt there are many people on the boards who know enough about Ancient History to use it for a living, unless they're history professors (in which case taking Knowledge was a very optimal choice for them.) Further, D&D is an imperfect model of reality. It gives people a limited number of skill points for balance reasonce, but in reality, knowing a lot about D&D does not somehow limit my ability to know C programming or anything else.

How many of those same people have Masters degrees, pilot's licenses, or any of the other "Optimized" choices that are available?

I have no problem with going for power, but a 1st level heroic character likely does not know which path is best (Optimum) just the same as an 18 year old kid who just picked up their first Commoner, or Expert level.

Assuming we're talking about mundane optimization and not crazy multiple-prestige-class munchkinism, then I would have to disagree with you. Most people have a fairly decent idea of the basics of what's required to succeed in their career path. I think you'd be hard pressed to find an aspiring programmer who says to himself "I could learn Python, but I bet employers are really looking for a candidate with underwater basketweaving skills."

Further, feats aren't actually choices a character sits down and makes. Rather, the character is a swordsman, and the player uses feats to represent that. There's no obvious difference between a fighter with Power Attack and a fghter with Toughness. They don't have a character sheet floating above their heads. The only difference is that in the mechanics behind what happens, they have slightly different numbers determining how well they fight. Unless you wish to deliberately roleplay an incompetent for some reason, why not play the same character with better numbers?

Dr.Epic

2010-01-31, 11:04 PM

I suspect that you are mistaking brokenness and raw power for optimization.
Yes, wizards and druids are more inherently powerful at higher levels. However, if you have n levels in wizard, and you picked spells that looked really cool, didn't bother to get a familiar (or let yours die, and never got a new one), and somehow forgot to pick up feats, you're doing a worse job of optimizing than the figther/barbarian who picked up the right chain of feats to deal decent damage while staying alive. You may be able to beat him in a fight 9 times out of 10, but you did a worse job of optimizing your character.

You're taking what I said too literal. Yes you can optimize a wizard/druid wrong. But the fact their broken doesn't mean characters with those classes are more optimized.

Optimystik

2010-01-31, 11:08 PM

Roy is powerful, and indeed lucked out at character creation stat-wise, but I wouldn't call him optimized.

The fact is that those wonderfully high stats of his are, by and large, going to waste. Charisma helps his Leadership, which is a powerful feat obviously, but that's really all he uses it for. His Wisdom doesn't seem to be doing much either besides boosting his will save, and his Int is tied up mainly in snarky quips.

There are a number of prestige classes (and even multiclasses) that could make good use of his great stats, but by staying straight fighter he's basically letting them go to waste.

Faleldir

2010-01-31, 11:15 PM

To those of you who dislike optimization: can you tell me how Roy's character development would differ if he had been a Warblade with two levels of Fighter? He might have overcome a few more obstacles, but he would be "roleplayed" exactly the same way.

Zevox

2010-01-31, 11:25 PM

If you mean the Order as a group specifically, it as others have already said. That'd be between Roy, Durkon, and V. And since V is a blaster mage and Durkon tends to spend his time playing band-aid box, that tips in Roy's favor.

If you mean the comic in general, I'd actually be inclined to suggest Thog. Barbarian with 2 levels of Fighter. Mental stats dumped for high physical stats. Two-handed weapon and power attack. He's pretty much "Exhibit A" in the gallery of optimized Fighter-types. About the only thing sub-optimal about him (that we know of) is that he's only Half-Orc rather than full Orc. He's not the most powerful character out there, true, but given what we know about him and about the other characters, it wouldn't be a stretch to call him the comic's most optimized character overall.

Zevox

Optimystik

2010-02-01, 12:20 AM

Thog pays a heavy price for his physical superiority, however - an unbelievably weak will save.

TriForce

2010-02-01, 08:08 AM

You do realize that being horribly unoptimized is actually going against roleplay? Lets say you're a guy whos really smart (got a really high int). You're educated but you're very weak physically (low str, dex and con). And then you decide to become a fighter...how is that supposed to make sense? How can you actually explain why someone would choose or be choosed by their master to become a specific class when they just dont have the stats for it? And how could you explain why someone would only learn some really bad feats when they put their lives on the line in those fight? Now I do agree that lots of people take it too far, especially Batman wizard who apparently do nothing else then prepare for their next fight, but creating an optimized character just means that in roleplay, your character want to be good at what he does. Most people want to be good at what they do. Especially if you get killed by monsters if you're not good enough.

actually, you are helping my point here. for instance, V likes being a blaster caster, and he really tries to be the best he can (spell focus evocation and so on) but, nobody considers him a optimized char. according to your explaination, he should be optimized

my rant was against the munchkin optimizers, who do nothing but make the most combat effective char possible without regard to logics or just fun

Optimystik

2010-02-01, 08:21 AM

my rant was against the munchkin optimizers, who do nothing but make the most combat effective char possible without regard to logics or just fun

If your rant is about munchkins, then say so, rather than opposing optimization in general.

Optimizing is good roleplay. No adventurer in his right mind is going to take up a class (like wizardry) without being at least passable at it, or adventure without magic items, spend all his skill points in Craft (embroidery.) They are going to pick a class or combination of classes that complements their stats.

Many of them make suboptimal choices, it's true - V for one, and Nale etc. - but they do so knowing what they're getting into.

TriForce

2010-02-01, 10:42 AM

If your rant is about munchkins, then say so, rather than opposing optimization in general.

Optimizing is good roleplay. No adventurer in his right mind is going to take up a class (like wizardry) without being at least passable at it, or adventure without magic items, spend all his skill points in Craft (embroidery.) They are going to pick a class or combination of classes that complements their stats.

Many of them make suboptimal choices, it's true - V for one, and Nale etc. - but they do so knowing what they're getting into.

Well, i (and as you can see yourself from all the people who consider V to be not optimized) consider optimizing as something else then simply making sensable choices for your class. a wizard taking up power attack is simply throwing away a feat, a wizard with cross class skill in survival taking up tracking isnt, altough its also not considered optimized. "optimized" chars would never take up survival and waste a feat in tracking, not being optimized is something else then taking random classes. its simply making unusual choices. there has been a lot of topics about blaster wizard being a bad choice and whatnot other example about "X is horribly build becouse its a weak choice" my point was a *who cares* to all the people who only make munchkin optimized chars, and i tought that was pretty obvious. my point was never to tell people they should make wizard/paladin/rogue chars when they only have a high int stat

Killer Angel

2010-02-01, 10:58 AM

Optimizing is good roleplay. No adventurer in his right mind is going to take up a class (like wizardry) without being at least passable at it, or adventure without magic items, spend all his skill points in Craft (embroidery.) They are going to pick a class or combination of classes that complements their stats.

Can we say that V. is optimized (sort of), in one of the worst field of magic, for a wizard?

Optimystik

2010-02-01, 11:38 AM

Well, i (and as you can see yourself from all the people who consider V to be not optimized) consider optimizing as something else then simply making sensable choices for your class. a wizard taking up power attack is simply throwing away a feat, a wizard with cross class skill in survival taking up tracking isnt, altough its also not considered optimized. "optimized" chars would never take up survival and waste a feat in tracking, not being optimized is something else then taking random classes. its simply making unusual choices. there has been a lot of topics about blaster wizard being a bad choice and whatnot other example about "X is horribly build becouse its a weak choice" my point was a *who cares* to all the people who only make munchkin optimized chars, and i tought that was pretty obvious. my point was never to tell people they should make wizard/paladin/rogue chars when they only have a high int stat

Well, that depends. If your campaign requires Survival to be successful, then it is worth taking even if you can only do so cross-class.

(See also: Miko.)

And your point was clearly not obvious, because nobody likes munchkins, yet we still disagreed with you thoroughly... because you didn't bother limiting your initial opinion to munchkins, preferring instead to tar all optimizers with the same brush.

That you didn't expect backlash from that puzzles me.

Starbuck_II

2010-02-01, 11:45 AM

Belkar: Gah. The only thing he did right was pick up some sort of pounce attack (or "forgets) you can't use a full attack after you move). Other than that, he's talking an xp penalty for his level of barbarian, doesn't have enough wisdom to cast spells, never put ranks in survival, spot, or listen, and only recently picked up a sub optimal animal companion.. in other words, he should have been a fighter , because he gains nothing by being a ranger except a loss in hp.

Remember Belkar was a 3.0 Ranger at forst (d10 hp) so he didn't lose anything at first. Barbarians can trade fast movement for Pounce so he is pretty optimized.

Lamech

2010-02-01, 11:59 AM

I would say Durkon or V have the most optimized character. V has her spells like forcecage and bugby's hand. She has polymporph. Those make it kind of hard to be not optimized. Also to the person who said cast it on Roy? Why would you go with him over Haley, after stacking haste? Thats 24 sneak attacks with hydra form.

On the optimization: Of course a wizard who gets into combat a lot might look in to powerful defensive magic, so of course they might take IotSFV. They also might look into powerful combat magic that incantrix provides. Taking powerful presitge classes or powerful feat combo's is not cheese or bad roleplaying. People who get into combat will take the best weapons they can get, assuming they like living. Now one could make an argument that the athiest wizard won't take dweamerkeeper, the sane wizard won't take tainted scholar, and the reincarnated wizard will wish himself back to grey elf form.

Joerg

2010-02-01, 12:32 PM

On optimization: First, I have to disagree with the opinion that everyone would automatically optimize in their world just because they want to be best at what they do. There are a lot of counterexamples:

- someone who becomes a fighter only to spite their father
- someone who becomes a fighter only because their father says so
- someone who becomes a wizard only because he desperately wants to do magic
- someone who becomes a cleric only because he is very religious and wants to serve his god
- someone who has perfect stats for a rogue, but was brought up too lawful
- a fighter who doesn't take some feat because he doesn't judge it honorable
- a wizard who doesn't learn some spell because he judges it as evil
- a wizard who barrs a particular field because someone whom he detests specializes in that field
- every character who pours skill points into a cross-class skill because it is his hobby

And so on. And often, such characters are more interesting to play -- from a character point of view -- than more optimized ones.

But, secondly, there are simply different ways to do roleplaying. Some see it more as a competition and look at the stats; for some the story is more important; some want to play different personalities. None of these ways are 'wrong'; the only important thing is that there isn't too much disagreement within one group of players over what they prefer.

Kish

2010-02-01, 02:05 PM

- someone who has perfect stats for a rogue, but was brought up too lawful

So s/he becomes a Lawful member of the rogue class who uses his/her rogue skills working for the police department. Let's not confuse stereotypes with rules...

(Someone will totally respond to this claiming rogues can't be Lawful.)

Joerg

2010-02-01, 02:34 PM

So s/he becomes a Lawful member of the rogue class who uses his/her rogue skills working for the police department. Let's not confuse stereotypes with rules...

Sorry, I didn't check the actual rules for every example. Just substitute Rogue with Bard.

Father Dale

2010-02-01, 03:15 PM

V has Conjuration as a banned school.

That is the definition of poor optimization for a member of the wizard.

Gitman00

2010-02-01, 03:19 PM

?? Wouldn't sinking several feats just so she can use two weapons at -4 to hit and only if she never moves be even less optimized? Are you thinking of a ranger? Sorry, but could you enlighten me?

No. Magic weapons and Weapon Finesse combined with dex-increasing items can easily make up for the to-hit penalty, especially at high levels. If you get Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, then by the time you're 15th level you'll have five attacks per round, each with 8d6 sneak-attack damage. Max out your Tumble skill and you can flank with impunity, guaranteeing sneak attacks every time one of your teammates is in melee. TWF is the way to go for a combat-focused rogue.

For extra cheese, go for the Invisible Blade prestige class from Complete Warrior and feint as a swift action, so you can get 5 sneak attacks every round without even flanking. :smallbiggrin:

And getting back to the topic, I think Roy is the most optimized, and I think that was deliberate. He - and to a lesser degree Durkon - is set up as the only sane man (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OnlySaneMan) in the Order. This is expanded upon in On the Origin of PCs.

Vaarsuvius: Evoker, with Conjuration banned. One of the worst builds for a specialist wizard. That said, he's still the most powerful in combat because, y'know, wizard.

Durkon: Charisma penalty, so he sucks at turning undead. Otherwise not bad. Doesn't have to worry about spell selection as a cleric, and his penchant for healing is has more to do with playing style than build optimization.

Elan: Bard with a low intelligence. Ridiculous. Bards are a skilled class, and to maximize skill points Intelligence should be the second-highest stat after Charisma, followed by Dex. Decent spell selection otherwise, but has a prestige class that doesn't advance his spellcasting, so not an optimal choice. It was picked mostly for Rule of Cool.

Haley: Poor weapon selection. She uses a longbow, which requires a martial weapon proficiency, meaning she wasted a feat which would be better spent elsewhere. Rogues are proficient with shortbows, she has no need for the extra range of the longbow, and it only averages an extra 1 damage per hit. It also means she gets no flanks (since she doesn't carry a melee weapon), which is the most effective way to get sneak attacks. That said, she did well with feat selection for her chosen weapon, with Manyshot, Rapid Shot, Ranged Sunder and Improved Precise Shot. Still, she'd be a much more effective combatant with TWF, as detailed above.

Belkar: Awful. Where do I begin? He's a small race with a Strength penalty and a Dexterity bonus, yet he went with TWF instead of archery. He fights with daggers, and because he's small they're only doing 1d3 points of damage per hit. Has low or no ranks in Survival, Spot and Listen, thus negating the signature Ranger skillset. Wisdom is too low to cast spells, which, as has been pointed out, makes him basically a fighter with fewer feats and hit points. It also lowers the aforementioned skill modifiers even more. Terrible multiclass selection with Barbarian, giving him an XP penalty. Suboptimal animal companion, though at least he finally got one.

Roy: Cleric would be a better class selection for someone with his Wisdom and Charisma (the Deva even points this out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)), but well-optimized within his class. Two-handed, high-strength power-attacker (with Great Cleavage!) with a greatsword, the best fighter build for sheer damage output.

So yeah, Roy is probably the best-optimized of the group. This makes sense, as he's the most level-headed, and the one who holds it all together.

One of the recurring themes of this comic is "United we stand, divided we fall." A clear contrast is being set up between The OotStick and the OotScribble. The former has poorly-optimized individuals who work well together (and moreso as they mature and learn to trust one another). The latter has individuals who were/are very powerful in their own right, but were ultimately destroyed by personal grievances and mistrust, and are now being picked off one by one in their isolation.

multilis

2010-02-01, 05:39 PM

Clearly Mr. Scruffy is the most optimized... a "wimpy" type of animal companion that is able to rule a city, and neutralize powerful casters then get away unhurt? His spot checks and reflex are also outstanding, often better than rest of OotS.

Optimystik

2010-02-01, 05:48 PM

Roy: Cleric would be a better class selection for someone with his Wisdom and Charisma (the Deva even points this out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)), but well-optimized within his class. Two-handed, high-strength power-attacker (with Great Cleavage!) with a greatsword, the best fighter build for sheer damage output.

Great Cleave is a waste of a feat. If you're up against strong enemies it does nothing, and if you're up against weak ones you don't need it. With his Int he should have taken Combat Expertise instead, to boost his touch AC.

I still say Durkon solely for the domains, myself - he has two of the best ones in core. Without more knowledge of his feats I can't be sure.

Orzel

2010-02-01, 07:15 PM

Class: Durkon. Battle cleric
Nonspell features: Belkar. he actually uses them- weapon style, rage, size, skills, halflingness (the ones he remembers he has)
Feats: Roy. duh
Spells: Tossup. Durkon's uses better ones. V optimizes bad ones.
Style: Roy. power attacking 2 hander ftw
Build: Elan. took power prc to not suck.

Dr.Epic

2010-02-01, 09:13 PM

Zevox

2010-02-01, 09:41 PM

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-01, 09:59 PM

Barbarians can trade fast movement for Pounce so he is pretty optimized.

1) Thats not a core rule/ OOTS is mostly core unless specified otherwise

2) Belkar has been shown to keep apace of Yok Yok, a kobold. while small, kobolds have a 30 foot movement. Belkar would normally have a 20 foot movement. If he didn't have the increased movement he wouldn't have been able to keep up.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-01, 10:04 PM

Remember Belkar was a 3.0 Ranger at forst (d10 hp) so he didn't lose anything at first. Barbarians can trade fast movement for Pounce so he is pretty optimized.

Nothing except Bonus feats and heavier armor. Since he's not spellcasting, using an animal companion, or getting the good skills he may as well.

Orzel

2010-02-01, 10:34 PM

I realised something. The poor way the strip's divine casters have been using spells makes me think that Belkar's low wisdom might be optimzed if he was point buy. Sure he'll fail a few checks and saves... but I'd doubt he get to use any of the few good 3rd ed ranger spells that weren't ridiculously situational.

noiadodh

2010-02-01, 11:43 PM

"fighter 3 is dumb level. Thog not take" :thog:

ninja'ed, of course...

Squeejee

2010-02-02, 02:24 AM

Great Cleave is a waste of a feat.

Don't forget to take into account campaign style as an essential part of built optimization - the OOtS fights against hordes of lower-level enemies on a regular basis, which makes GC an excellent choice.

Also remember that Roy has another feat in the works that will help his anti-caster fighting abilities, which I think more than puts him ahead insofar as build optimization is concerned. He also seems to know his way around his high mental stats, as shown when he outsmarts his foes instead of stabbing them, which suggests that they aren't going to waste at all.

Maybe he has a homebrew "outsmart" ability? Maybe his DM has adopted a combat-friendly definition of mental abilities / skills? Who knows, but by the base rules Roy shouldn't be quite as powerful as he seems to be, which suggests an optimization (or simple player skill) beyond what is immediately apparent.

casper

2010-02-02, 01:02 PM

As I remember, the only guy who pretended to be optimizer in the comic was that half-ogre (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

The most optimzed least non-optimized OOtS member is probably Durkon - good spell selection would make him a powerful cleric, and since DnD clerics "know" all spells for their class, it can happen.
The second is Roy. He could find something to make his mental stats work for him, but feats he took work well for him in given campain.
Haley is third, just because UMD is really useful skill, and it doesn't seem like she hadn't enough skill points to take it.
Then Elan. Since he took this PrC, he actually can fight, while remain hisbardic music and illusions. While bard can do more, of course.
Next is V. Not because evocation is so bad, but because conjuration is much better.

Belkar... Either the best or the worst optimised. Worst, if this small barbarian/ranger without spells and main skills win most of his battles because of rule of cool. Best, if he uses, for instance variant barbarian pounce, Leap Attack, Favored Power Attack and so on. Unlikely, of course.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-02, 01:34 PM

Haley: Poor weapon selection. She uses a longbow, which requires a martial weapon proficiency, meaning she wasted a feat which would be better spent elsewhere.

One level in fighter would have given her the proficiency for free.

Optimystik

2010-02-02, 02:01 PM

Wait, if we're talking optimized (making the most out of their class/race limitations) and not most powerful (the guy/girl that is the most powerful) then isn't the answer Belkar?

He's a halfling ranger/barbarian and somehow he still manages to kick ass. He has an xp penalty, -2 to str which is his favorite ability, and doesn't even use spell, yet the fact he can kill people so easily must mean he's doing something right.

As Zevox pointed out, Belkar's build is fueled by liquid phlebotinum and should not be considered in the light of actual D&D mechanics.

Don't forget to take into account campaign style as an essential part of built optimization - the OOtS fights against hordes of lower-level enemies on a regular basis, which makes GC an excellent choice.

No, it's still a bad choice. There are already three other people in the party that can deal reliable splash damage, they don't need a 4th. Roy should focus on charging/tripping instead, to crack the tougher nuts they'll face.

One level in fighter would have given her the proficiency for free.

Not only that, but she'd be up one feat instead of down one.

Though she could have taken a level in Feat Rogue instead, maybe?

Da'Shain

2010-02-02, 02:22 PM

I'd say within the bounds of his getting screwed over by the shift from 3.0 to 3.5, V is actually decently optimized herself. He's got a pretty good spell list in his book, and seems to choose them well; he's also got several metamagic feats, and some good items (Ring of Wizardry 4, right? And he's definitely got an Int headband). The fact that he's crippled by the schools changing dramatically shouldn't be held against him, IMO.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 03:00 PM

He also seems to know his way around his high mental stats, as shown when he outsmarts his foes instead of stabbing them, which suggests that they aren't going to waste at all.

With that high int though he should be using improved trip.

Gitman00

2010-02-02, 03:08 PM

One level in fighter would have given her the proficiency for free.

Yes, but she took the feat instead, so the point stands.

Great Cleave is a waste of a feat. If you're up against strong enemies it does nothing, and if you're up against weak ones you don't need it. With his Int he should have taken Combat Expertise instead, to boost his touch AC.

Agreed. I was just channelling Elan.

:elan: Roy has boobies!

Doug Lampert

2010-02-02, 03:09 PM

You've never seen anyone roll only good scores on "4d6 take best 3"? Happened twice for me, and I haven't been especially long into roleplaying business.

People tend to be very bad at estimating the odds of "unlikely" events (hence lottery sales).

4d6 drop one six times will produce 3 or more scores of 16+ more than 1 time in 28. Pretty common considering the number of characters rolled up in many campaigns.

You'll get 4 or more scores of 16+ more than 1 time in 252. Still not unreasonable.

You'll get 5 or 6 scores of 16+ roughly once in 4,183 characters. How many total characters have people on this board rolled up? Enough that probably several honest rolls have resulted in something like that.

You'll actually get 6 scores of 16+ only once in roughly 164,969 tries. Congradulations, we've finally hit something actually rare, still far more likely than winning the lottery (and someone does that almost every week), but still pretty good.

fangthane

2010-02-02, 03:26 PM

Yeah, I have to go with Optimystik on this one, for sure. It takes a deliberate effort to make a cleric so sub-optimal it makes a difference, and as Opti pointed out, Durkon's domains shore up the single typical failing of the class, the ability to deal direct damage through magic. (I think we're already clear on what Divine Favor, Power and Might do for the melee side of things)

Possibly the next-best optimised is Elan (though this is arguable based on what we don't know about his prestige class) - as a bard he's woefully inadequate, but as a bard/DS he retains his mediocre bardic competence while boosting his combat ability substantially. Certainly the non-elven longbow rogue and the halfling barbarian need not apply.

I can't believe so many people think of Roy as an optimal character though. His int is superfluous to the basic fighter build (several prestige classes and feat progressions make use of it but we've little enough indication he's interested in any of that). As far as I'm concerned a player whose fighter takes Great Cleave and expects it to be worthwhile past 5th level is the sort who plays a bard and actually selects Break Enchantment* as a spell. I mean, really. Even Suggestion has some value, insofar as it reduces the time to successfully suggest by up to half (one round per target, vs 1 to fascinate and 1/target to suggest) - but still, it's not as extensible as the music ability that does the same.

*I've played with some real dozos in my time. People with whom I had to spend half an hour explaining why it's stupid to duplicate a free ability you can use 12 times a day... bit of a pet peeve for me. :)

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 04:05 PM

Yeah, I have to go with Optimystik on this one, for sure. It takes a deliberate effort to make a cleric so sub-optimal it makes a difference, and as Opti pointed out, Durkon's domains shore up the single typical failing of the class, the ability to deal direct damage through magic. (I think we're already clear on what Divine Favor, Power and Might do for the melee side of things)

Divine favor and divine power and divine might are all cleric spells. We don't know that he's casting them as a domain.

I can't believe so many people think of Roy as an optimal character though. His int is superfluous to the basic fighter build (several prestige classes and feat progressions make use of it but we've little enough indication he's interested in any of that)

It could be his lowest score for all we know.

[QUOTE] As far as I'm concerned a player whose fighter takes Great Cleave and expects it to be worthwhile past 5th level

I had it on a dragon disciple that liked to cast enlarge person on himself. It came up fairly often. In the campaigns i've played in I've had to deal with mooks, summoned critters, and mirror images galore, so being able to mow through a large number of weak foes was pretty handy. Sure, if you own every splatbook in existance i'm sure there's something better to take, but if you're going core only or mostly core its about the only thing to take around that level.

is the sort who plays a bard and actually selects Break Enchantment* as a spell. I mean, really. Even Suggestion has some value, insofar as it reduces the time to successfully suggest by up to half (one round per target, vs 1 to fascinate and 1/target to suggest) - but still, it's not as extensible as the music ability that does the same.

Not everyone checks the casting time on the break enchantment spell. Break enchantment is also one of those "wait , when did you learn evasion belkar?" abilities that people forget is there.

Optimystik

2010-02-02, 04:28 PM

Possibly the next-best optimised is Elan (though this is arguable based on what we don't know about his prestige class) - as a bard he's woefully inadequate, but as a bard/DS he retains his mediocre bardic competence while boosting his combat ability substantially.

Elan's combat ability has a heavy price, however - it does not advance his spellcasting. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)

While Cha to attack and damage are both useful, they may not be worth delaying his spell progression, particularly if he has access to any bard spells outside core. (I wonder - does DS have full BAB?)

Divine favor and divine power and divine might are all cleric spells. We don't know that he's casting them as a domain.

Strength is as good a choice for his second domain as any - there aren't many others we could ascribe to Thor besides Air. (War?)

I had it on a dragon disciple that liked to cast enlarge person on himself. It came up fairly often. In the campaigns i've played in I've had to deal with mooks, summoned critters, and mirror images galore, so being able to mow through a large number of weak foes was pretty handy. Sure, if you own every splatbook in existance i'm sure there's something better to take, but if you're going core only or mostly core its about the only thing to take around that level.

Again, if they're going to be buffing him/enlarging him etc., he is better off with Combat Expertise going into the Trip line. V, Durkon and Haley can all mow down crowds of weak mooks, and can do so more efficiently and effectively than Roy can. Roy's job is taking out the big guns and going toe to toe with the bruisers, not slicing away at the peanut gallery. Meanwhile, he can use Expertise to dodge rays and Improved Trip to screw up spellcasters and keep big monsters away from the squishies.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 05:08 PM

Strength is as good a choice for his second domain as any - there aren't many others we could ascribe to Thor besides Air. (War?)

Well, now you're being a mite circular. Certainly they would be good and thematic choices for thor, but we don't know if Durkon has them. Being able to cast a spell from the domains is only an indication that he has those domains if the spells in question aren't already cleric spells. For all we know, he has the beer and beard domains.

Again, if they're going to be buffing him/enlarging him etc., he is better off with Combat Expertise going into the Trip line.

Combat expertise, improved trip, combat reflexes.. ok, thats level 3... then what? :). It isn't an either or situation.

V, Durkon and Haley can all mow down crowds of weak mooks, and can do so more efficiently and effectively than Roy can. Roy's job is taking out the big guns and going toe to toe with the bruisers, not slicing away at the peanut gallery.

I always viewed a fighters job as keeping the peanut gallery off of the wizard until the spellcasters could take down the big bad. If the wizard leaves himself open, but all means, run up and grapple him, but there's only so much pressure having to cast on the defensive puts on a caster. Unlike OoTS in 3.5 you can make concentration checks.

Meanwhile, he can use Expertise to dodge rays

Why shoot a ray at a fighter until the spellcasters are all dead? Given how easy it is to hit with a touch attack, the +5 isn't going to help.

and Improved Trip to screw up spellcasters and keep big monsters away from the squishies

Well, improved trips one weakness is that it tends not to work on monsters (which tend to be stronger than fighters and larger). I haven't seen a lot of OOtS fights where trip would have been useful (it stops working on spellcasters once they can expect to be flying most of the time) but ROy has made good use of great cleave.

Orzel

2010-02-02, 05:23 PM

A small ranger isn't bad considering that most OOTS enemies have few hps. The size bonus is more useful than the damage.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 05:27 PM

A small ranger isn't bad considering that most OOTS enemies have few hps. The size bonus is more useful than the damage.

Even then i think Windstriker showed the problems with being a small front line fighting type.

Optimystik

2010-02-02, 05:32 PM

Well, now you're being a mite circular. Certainly they would be good and thematic choices for thor, but we don't know if Durkon has them. Being able to cast a spell from the domains is only an indication that he has those domains if the spells in question aren't already cleric spells. For all we know, he has the beer and beard domains.

I'm not being circular at all. Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html) is not a cleric spell, so Air is pretty much a given as one of his domains. And it's a very good choice for core - plenty of offensive punch in that domain, plus he can turn/rebuke two types of elemental now as well as undead.

I already said Strength is only a possibility for the second one. If it is Strength though, he gets even more offensive power (the "Bixby" line) as well as defensive (Stoneskin.)

If it is not Strength, there are other strong choices, such as War and Good.

Combat expertise, improved trip, combat reflexes.. ok, thats level 3... then what? :). It isn't an either or situation.

We'd have to know which feats he did take to know which ones he should drop for that line, but Great Cleave is a pretty safe one to cut.

I'm not saying Roy is feat-starved, but that doesn't make Great Cleave any less suboptimal.

I always viewed a fighters job as keeping the peanut gallery off of the wizard until the spellcasters could take down the big bad. If the wizard leaves himself open, but all means, run up and grapple him, but there's only so much pressure having to cast on the defensive puts on a caster. Unlike OoTS in 3.5 you can make concentration checks.

The peanut gallery is no threat to a blaster. You're talking about a Wizard with a ton of AoE spells and metamagic, who can fly, drop illusions and turn invisible. Evokers' specialty is mowing down hordes of mooks. Add to that a Cleric with Air and a bow rogue with Manyshot, and crowd control is a nonissue.

What the Order still lacks however, is the ability to take down one strong foe quickly. This is why Miko, Leeky, the Dragon, and Samantha gave them so much trouble - one powerful foe doesn't succumb as easily to their tricks.

Why shoot a ray at a fighter until the spellcasters are all dead? Given how easy it is to hit with a touch attack, the +5 isn't going to help.

It boosts both his regular and touch AC. You can't tell me that isn't useful.

It's a prereq. for Imp. Trip, anyway, which is definitely useful.

Well, improved trips one weakness is that it tends not to work on monsters (which tend to be stronger than fighters and larger). I haven't seen a lot of OOtS fights where trip would have been useful (it stops working on spellcasters once they can expect to be flying most of the time) but ROy has made good use of great cleave.

How would Great Cleave be any more useful against flyers? Unless he's up against a flock of birds.

You CAN trip flyers by the way - doing so makes them fall from the sky immediately, provided they use wings to fly. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) Plenty of monsters that do that.

Orzel

2010-02-02, 06:11 PM

Even then i think Windstriker showed the problems with being a small front line fighting type.

T'was a railroad fight, proves nothing.
A successful AoO or missed touch attack stops the grapple check and small characters get bonuses to both.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 08:20 PM

I already said Strength is only a possibility for the second one. If it is Strength though, he gets even more offensive power (the "Bixby" line) as well as defensive (Stoneskin.)

With that IF, you don't know if he's optimized or not. While i find if kind of funny that the most optimized person seems to be the one with NO defining characteristics what so ever (and thus hasn't made any mistakes), we can't say that he's optimized for having the strength domain because we don't know that he does.

We'd have to know which feats he did take to know which ones he should drop for that line, but Great Cleave is a pretty safe one to cut.I'm not saying Roy is feat-starved, but that doesn't make Great Cleave any less suboptimal.

For your campaign perhaps. But its very usefull in oots.

The peanut gallery is no threat to a blaster. You're talking about a Wizard with a ton of AoE spells and metamagic, who can fly, drop illusions and turn invisible.

All time he needs to spend dropping the big bad Great cleave lets your peanut gallery (the fighter) take out his peanut gallery (the mooks) so he can begin making a nussiance of himself to the BBGED sooner.

Evokers' specialty is mowing down hordes of mooks. Add to that a Cleric with Air and a bow rogue with Manyshot, and crowd control is a nonissue.

A great cleaving fighter can dish out a LOT more damage than a many shotting rogue. Idealy, the manyshotting rogue or blasty wizard would soften them up, and then the fighter would go to town. A fighter is going to take power attack (for use at higher levels) and cleave, great cleave isn't so much a tree as one more feat in a road thats already been cleared and leveled but not paved.

What the Order still lacks however, is the ability to take down one strong foe quickly. This is why Miko, Leeky, the Dragon, and Samantha gave them so much trouble - one powerful foe doesn't succumb as easily to their tricks.

The casters taking more save or die spells would fix that fairly quickly.

It boosts both his regular and touch AC. You can't tell me that isn't useful

It isn't useful. AC is a suckers game. You're almost always going to be hit anyway either because most of the attacks assume an iterative attack mayby missing, but the battles hardly ever last long enough and no one holds still to get off iterative attacks. A high str monster can't miss you, and since they use multi attack with a flat -2 to -5 on all their attacks, they're going to hit you anyway. A touch attack is so easy to make that the extra -5 isn't helping.

It's a prereq. for Imp. Trip, anyway, which is definitely useful.

Imp trip is very useful.

How would Great Cleave be any more useful against flyers? Unless he's up against a flock of birds.

Or a flying wizard with mirror image. Trip is just flat out useless against an opponent with the fly spell on them.

You CAN trip flyers by the way - doing so makes them fall from the sky immediately, provided they use wings to fly. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a) Plenty of monsters that do that.[/QUOTE]

Sure, and how many of them are small and weak enough to trip? I don't think even the young adult black dragon was going to fall over for Roy.

Optimystik

2010-02-02, 10:24 PM

With that IF, you don't know if he's optimized or not. While i find if kind of funny that the most optimized person seems to be the one with NO defining characteristics what so ever (and thus hasn't made any mistakes), we can't say that he's optimized for having the strength domain because we don't know that he does.

A) His personality has nothing to do with his build.

B) Even if he has one lousy domain, he still has one very good one that we can be sure of, and a very high Wisdom score. Thus, he is still more optimized than the other members of the Order. And the odds are in favor of his second domain being just as useful.

For your campaign perhaps. But its very usefull in oots.

It really isn't, because the same problems apply in both D&D and OotS - for Great Cleave to be relevant, they have to be fighting weaklings, which three other members of the party can handle even more easily than Roy can. Ignore that point all you want, you have yet to disprove it.

A great cleaving fighter can dish out a LOT more damage than a many shotting rogue. Idealy, the manyshotting rogue or blasty wizard would soften them up, and then the fighter would go to town. A fighter is going to take power attack (for use at higher levels) and cleave, great cleave isn't so much a tree as one more feat in a road thats already been cleared and leveled but not paved.

Shouldn't he be using his massive damage on the BBEG? Not to mention, keeping him tripped/interrupted/grappled etc. so he can't focus on the other members of the Order?

All time he needs to spend dropping the big bad Great cleave lets your peanut gallery (the fighter) take out his peanut gallery (the mooks) so he can begin making a nussiance of himself to the BBGED sooner.
...
The casters taking more save or die spells would fix that fairly quickly.

V and Durkon are blasters and buffers, not SoD spammers. Vs. the Pit Fiend, V only switched to SoDs when he realized how ineffective blasting was. And now that's he's switched to buffing/support, he'll be even less offensive than he was in that regard.

Yet he still prepares blasting spells, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) you'll note... because he is still an evoker.

It isn't useful. AC is a suckers game. You're almost always going to be hit anyway either because most of the attacks assume an iterative attack mayby missing, but the battles hardly ever last long enough and no one holds still to get off iterative attacks. A high str monster can't miss you, and since they use multi attack with a flat -2 to -5 on all their attacks, they're going to hit you anyway. A touch attack is so easy to make that the extra -5 isn't helping.

In a vacuum, sure. But Expertise is -5 that stacks on top of every other buff and item he's wearing - It's a dodge bonus.

Or a flying wizard with mirror image. Trip is just flat out useless against an opponent with the fly spell on them.

So is Great Cleave.

It helps vs. Mirror Image - if all the images are somehow adjacent to his square, and none of his allies have an area dispel or magic missile handy or even some arrows/throwing knives handy... yeah, if all that is true, Great Cleave is useful in that one specific situation.

Which is to say, not at all.

Sure, and how many of them are small and weak enough to trip? I don't think even the young adult black dragon was going to fall over for Roy.

Now hold on - you can't mention all these buffs like Enlarge Person for Roy when it suits your argument, then conveniently forget them when it doesn't. That's not good form.

He may not be a Dragon Disciple, but he has two dedicated casters that can lay the buffs on for him.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-02, 10:58 PM

A) His personality has nothing to do with his build. (/quote)

Its his build I'm talking about. It (like the rest of him) has no defining features. We don't know anything about it. Its a complete black hole.

[QUOTE]
B) Even if he has one lousy domain, he still has one very good one that we can be sure of, and a very high Wisdom score. Thus, he is still more optimized than the other members of the Order. And the odds are in favor of his second domain being just as useful.

There's no odd in that regard because there's no information.

It really isn't, because the same problems apply in both D&D and OotS - for Great Cleave to be relevant, they have to be fighting weaklings, which three other members of the party can handle even more easily than Roy can. Ignore that point all you want, you have yet to disprove it.

Yes, i was completely ignoring it when i devoted a few paragraphs to answering it.

Shouldn't he be using his massive damage on the BBEG?

No, because his damage isn't massive against the BBGED.

By great cleaving He multiplies the damage he does. If he doesn't get to great cleave, he's still stuck at a fairly fixed number. Also, he needs to get to the big bad, presumably the Mooks are coming for him and the casters.

Not to mention, keeping him tripped/interrupted/grappled etc. so he can't focus on the other members of the Order?

Trips going to work once, then teh BB is going to cast fly (if they haven't already) Interupting a spellcaster is almost impossible for a melee, they simply 5 foot step back and cast or just cast on the defensive.

V and Durkon are blasters and buffers, not SoD spammers. Vs. the Pit Fiend, V only switched to SoDs when he realized how ineffective blasting was. And now that's he's switched to buffing/support, he'll be even less offensive than he was in that regard.

Yes, but 1) Their blasting makes Roys great cleave more effective. By having a large number of enemies standing around all with 20 or so HP it sets up the perfect opportunity for roy to go to town. Haley's many shots deal X amount of damage whether its all to 1 person or whether its to 6 different people. Roys sword is more effective the more enemies he has packed in close together within killing range. So given a choice, Roy takes out the mooks and Haley whittles on the big bad. Also, the mooks are more likely to be in range of Roys sword, where as the big bad usually stays in the back making him a perfect target for Haley.

2) The casters can switch to save or die tactics without altering their build.

Yet he still prepares blasting spells, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) you'll note... because he is still an evoker.

Which is a matter of their choice, not Roys.

In a vacuum, sure. But Expertise is -5 that stacks on top of every other buff and item he's wearing - It's a dodge bonus.

For purposes of touch attacks it stacks with his ring of deflection and any cover the fighter has from being in a melee. Also, the fighter is at that point making himself LESS of a threat by hitting less often, when he should be making himself MORE of a threat in order to attract attention away from the real danger.

So is Great Cleave.

It helps vs. Mirror Image - if all the images are somehow adjacent to his square, and none of his allies have an area dispel or magic missile handy or even some arrows/throwing knives handy... yeah, if all that is true, Great Cleave is useful in that one specific situation.

Which is to say, not at all.

Mirror images are ALWAYS in the same square as the caster. They're constantly shifting about and stepping through each other. Having great cleave can save the caster from wasting a spell and a very important spellcaster action to take them down.

Now hold on - you can't mention all these buffs like Enlarge Person for Roy when it suits your argument, then conveniently forget them when it doesn't. That's not good form.

THe "he" was my dragon disciple (ironically, also considered grossly underpowered) and he was usually enlarged (thank to his level of sorcerer). That gave him extra reach, which made great cleave very useful on several occasions.

He may not be a Dragon Disciple, but he has two dedicated casters that can lay the buffs on for him.

But they usually don't, that buff in particular because getting huge is Durkons shtick

AgentofOdd

2010-02-03, 12:11 AM

A fair amount of people mention Roy would be better off multiclassing. Out of curiosity, what core classes (because pretty much anything else has pesky copyright issues) would work well for him?

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-03, 01:02 AM

A fair amount of people mention Roy would be better off multiclassing. Out of curiosity, what core classes (because pretty much anything else has pesky copyright issues) would work well for him?

Barbarian: Can't, lawful. if he could though, picking up 1 level of barbarian for the movemet and rage is as cheesy as barbarians comming over to fighter for 2 levels worth of feats.

Bard: Ditto on the alignment problems. Also... its a bard.

Paladin: ...no. ALthough barely being lawful good makes this an impractical choice, he could pick up his cha bonus to saves at almost no cost.

Cleric for 3 levels. Loose 1 bab gain some nifty domain powers. He's human, so the multiclass xp penalty won't apply.

Wizard: Pick up a few levels, then go dor eldritch knight

Druid alignment problems. A shapeshifted fighter is worse than a real druid, but still better than a fighter. Probably too late to make it worth it.

Rogue: nothing to gain at this point. Sneak attack is useless at his l
evel.

Ranger: two weapon fighting blows anyway, and the team already has an archer. Not having to rely on belkar to track though....

Sorcerer: same as wizard but... sorcerer.

Zevox

2010-02-03, 01:17 AM

A fair amount of people mention Roy would be better off multiclassing. Out of curiosity, what core classes (because pretty much anything else has pesky copyright issues) would work well for him?
Cleric, for one (the Deva even mentioned he could have done this). Even a one-level dip would give him domain powers, the ability to use divine magic items, and allow him to qualify for the Divine Might feat, which would be pretty nice if his charisma is at least 14. Taking enough levels to get spells like Divine Power and/or Righteous Might would also allow him to bolster his combat prowess. And other support spells would be nice to have too.

Taking Wizard or Sorcerer for a few levels could allow him to go Eldritch Knight, which would give him magical support for his physical talents without losing too much in that area. He would have armor troubles, though, unless he got some nice and powerful Bracers of Armor. Sorcerer could also allow access to the Dragon Disciple prestige class.

If you include psionics (either counting them as core due to their presence in the SRD or just looking at them in general), a few levels in Psychic Warrior or Wilder could do him a lot of good and allow him to qualify for the excellent War Mind prestige class. They don't even have the armor problem that arcane magic would.

And of course, it might be fun to see him taking levels in Psion, just to piss his dad off. Not only does he reject being a wizard in favor of being a fighter, but when he does take a casting class, it isn't even one that does magic. Yet it's still int-based.

Zevox

Optimystik

2010-02-03, 01:36 AM

Its his build I'm talking about. It (like the rest of him) has no defining features. We don't know anything about it. Its a complete black hole.

We know that (a) he has the Air domain and (b) has high Wisdom. In core, clerics don't really need much more than that.

There's no odd in that regard because there's no information.

You're wrong there IS information - his deity, Thor. While we can't be sure of all the domains he offers, we can rule out obvious ill fits - Evil and Death are out, for instance, as is Magic.

If the Giant is drawing from Deities and Demigods, Thor's other domains are Good, Strength, War and Protection. (He has Chaos as well, but Durkon likely can't take that one.) The Giant may have made some changes, but as these all fit with Thor as he's been shown in the comic, I see no reason why he would. And these are all very useful domains.

Yes, i was completely ignoring it when i devoted a few paragraphs to answering it.

It's really an issue of taste - you prefer chopping up trash mobs, while I point out that a well-placed AoE or Manyshot can do the job just as well.

The problem is that Roy alone has a surefire method for disrupting casters - therefore, he needs to be up in their faces, not wasting time filleting their minions. (See below)

No, because his damage isn't massive against the BBGED.

By great cleaving He multiplies the damage he does. If he doesn't get to great cleave, he's still stuck at a fairly fixed number. Also, he needs to get to the big bad, presumably the Mooks are coming for him and the casters.

He is roughly level 14, and thus has a limited number of feats. His damage may be fixed, but he has better choices for those limited feats than Great Cleave - especially if the Giant introduces non-core choices.

Even Whirlwind would be better, because it does exactly the same thing - except it works on stronger enemies as well as trash.

Trips going to work once, then teh BB is going to cast fly (if they haven't already) Interupting a spellcaster is almost impossible for a melee, they simply 5 foot step back and cast or just cast on the defensive.

He is learning a feat to do exactly that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) Which, incidentally, is one less feat he can afford to waste, especially since he's just died.

Yes, but 1) Their blasting makes Roys great cleave more effective.

That's great... if they all happen to cluster around him after being fireballed or manyshot. He doesn't have reach.

2) The casters can switch to save or die tactics without altering their build.

They are highly unlikely to - especially Durkon, since at least one of his domains is a blasty one.

Which is a matter of their choice, not Roys.

That somehow gives Roy an excuse not to optimize to his team's strengths?

For purposes of touch attacks it stacks with his ring of deflection and any cover the fighter has from being in a melee. Also, the fighter is at that point making himself LESS of a threat by hitting less often, when he should be making himself MORE of a threat in order to attract attention away from the real danger.

He has a +5 sword, very high strength, GWF and ample sources of buffs, including both a bard and a cleric. He can easily hit most foes even with the reduction.

Mirror images are ALWAYS in the same square as the caster. They're constantly shifting about and stepping through each other. Having great cleave can save the caster from wasting a spell and a very important spellcaster action to take them down.

You mean one quickened magic missile? I'd rather Roy use his actions on the BBEG.

THe "he" was my dragon disciple (ironically, also considered grossly underpowered) and he was usually enlarged (thank to his level of sorcerer). That gave him extra reach, which made great cleave very useful on several occasions.
***
But they usually don't, that buff in particular because getting huge is Durkons shtick

What does "schtick" have to do with buffing Roy or not?

DSCrankshaw

2010-02-03, 02:03 AM

It seems to me that it would be an interesting exercise to ask who was the best optimized in 3.0. That's where the characters were built, before the rules changed on them.

Asta Kask

2010-02-03, 03:39 AM

For all we know, he has the beer and beard domains.

I wonder what spells would be in the beer domain...

GoC

2010-02-03, 04:27 AM

He's an awesome and probably optimised caster-killer.
Optimized? Xykon? Don't make me laugh. An optimized wizard/sorceror would at least use timestop, gate or shapechange. There are many ways to make extremely powerful casters but none appear in the OotS.

Iranon

2010-02-03, 06:24 AM

I'd take this as 'optimised locally' - getting the character do do what you want them to do well while staying in the concept (e.g. strength-based melee, but not necessarily the exact class combination).

*

I think Belkar and Miko stand out - it's just that they are optimised for something else than making the biggest possible contribution to a party.

Miko: As a character who'll go after high-powered evildoers on her own, she needs survivability and the ability to take down big threats quickly. Her monk levels prevent her being worn down by damage spells and give her the ability to break off melee fights she doesn't like, she's good against Save-or-Else types anyway. Paladin is part of the concept and works well enough in general; two-weapon fighting is slightly iffy but acceptable.

Belkar: Optimised thematically. His player knew exactly what (s)he wants. Seemingly puny (halfling, using daggers) power by sheer rage (racial enemy bonuses, dip into barbarian). Being at least somewhat sneaky is useful for general asshattery, but sneak attacks are unnecessary and less fun than pure concentrated stabby violence... same goes for magic.
Extreme concessions? Yes, but they all make sense.

Forbiddenwar

2010-02-03, 12:17 PM

Belkar: Optimised thematically. His player knew exactly what (s)he wants. Seemingly puny (halfling, using daggers) power by sheer rage (racial enemy bonuses, dip into barbarian). Being at least somewhat sneaky is useful for general asshattery, but sneak attacks are unnecessary and less fun than pure concentrated stabby violence... same goes for magic.
Extreme concessions? Yes, but they all make sense.

It's hard to stab anything if you can't SPOT them.

I wonder what spells would be in the beer domain...

Bless human beer*
If you have War and Xps, you know what I'm talking about.:smallwink:

Da'Shain

2010-02-03, 01:43 PM

I'm still pulling for Xykon to have used Spell Knowledge to get Time Stop and some other spell, and just not use it because he likes screwing his opponents in real time. That's just wishful thinking, though. (It really does seem like a ridiculous spell to go without -- especially over Meteor Swarm!)

Kish

2010-02-03, 01:56 PM

It's hard to stab anything if you can't SPOT them.
And yet Belkar manages to rack up a body count in the thousands. You don't need to make a Spot check to see someone who's right in front of you, not hiding, and not a ninja.

Orzel

2010-02-03, 06:00 PM

And yet Belkar manages to rack up a body count in the thousands. You don't need to make a Spot check to see someone who's right in front of you, not hiding, and not a ninja.

He's good at his job: harvesting the organs of people who shouldn't be fighting him (low HP/AC guys who can't force a Will save or suck)

Not the most optimzed but a RP build that works well.

Overall that's the majority of the OotS's builds
Basic, hard to screw up, class builds
and
Crazy yet functioning RP heavy builds

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-03, 06:01 PM

Beer domain: Special ability +2 on fort saves.

Level 1: Create water (aka human beer)
Level 2: Zone of truth ('In Vino zythum Veritas'
Level 3: Bestow Curse (induces drunkenness)
Level 4: Neutralize Poison
Level 5: Righteous Might (beer muscles)
Level 6: Heroes’ Feast (mostly pretzels)
Level 7: Insanity (you've had too much)
Level 8: Sympathy (i love you man!)
Level 9: Mass Charm monster (wiz 8) When you have the beer, everyone is your friend.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-03, 07:04 PM

We know that (a) he has the Air domain and (b) has high Wisdom. In core, clerics don't really need much more than that.

Well, there's feats to consider. For all we know he could have taken toughness 5 times.

You're wrong there IS information - his deity, Thor. While we can't be sure of all the domains he offers, we can rule out obvious ill fits - Evil and Death are out, for instance, as is Magic.

And can include several dozen homebrew domains.

If the Giant is drawing from Deities and Demigods, Thor's other domains are Good, Strength, War and Protection. (He has Chaos as well, but Durkon likely can't take that one.) The Giant may have made some changes, but as these all fit with Thor as he's been shown in the comic, I see no reason why he would. And these are all very useful domains.

Uhm.. no. The deities and demigods thor is a LOT more serious than the oots version.

It's really an issue of taste - you prefer chopping up trash mobs, while I point out that a well-placed AoE or Manyshot can do the job just as well.

A well placed aoe can. Manyshot cannot. Both would be better served nailing the big bad in the back.

Presumably, the bad guy is in the back like a quaterback and the mooks are up front like linemen. The fighter is up front as a one man line. If the fighter Moves up through the opposition he gets whacks of opportunity and then attacks once. If he holds still, he gets multiple whacks, cleaves, and possibly great cleaves. His damage is multiplied vs the mooks. The damage is only massive when aimed at mooks, its piddling against a big bad . The fighter gains something by holding still. The blaster or the many shotter do as much damage whether they aim for the big bad or the mooks, so you may as well have the fighter do it.

Additionally, Great cleave isn't a 3 feat investment. Power attack comes in handy at higher levels when you have to move up and attack. Cleave is awesome for a two handed weapon wielder.

The problem is that Roy alone has a surefire method for disrupting casters - therefore, he needs to be up in their faces, not wasting time filleting their minions. (See below)

And this is a very recent development with a non core feat. If your DM is restricting you to core or unwilling to give you mageslayereqsue feats then its a good investment.

If roy is a 14th level human fighter, he has

1 feat (human)
5 feats (level)
8 feats (fighter)

What else should he have taken that he probably doesn't already have? If he's been restricted to core for most of his life, he's probably got most of the core feats.

He is roughly level 14, and thus has a limited number of feats. His damage may be fixed, but he has better choices for those limited feats than Great Cleave - especially if the Giant introduces non-core choices.

The problem with fighters isn't that they're linear its that they're downright regressive. After a fighter finishes a feat tree around level 8 they have to go back and take feats that are available for 1st level characters. Roys fighter feats alone are enough to incorporate the cleave tree, (3) and the whirlwind tree.

Even Whirlwind would be better, because it does exactly the same thing - except it works on stronger enemies as well as trash.

Nope. The downside of whirlwind is that it requires a full attack action and replaces all of your iterative attacks. you hardly ever see a fighter get a full attack. Even as a dm TRYING to set up these situations for a whirl winding character was tough, because enough enemies to pose a threat would simply slaughter him when he stood in the doughnut hole.

great cleave on the other hand can go off from an attack action, or even an attack of opportunity. I've had some poor mooks get their bosses killed by drawing an AoO and setting off a cascade of death.

He is learning a feat to do exactly that. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html) Which, incidentally, is one less feat he can afford to waste, especially since he's just died.

Oh no, 1/14th of his feat reserves are gone.

That's great... if they all happen to cluster around him after being fireballed or manyshot. He doesn't have reach.

They don't have to cluster around him. Unlike whirlwind they have to cluster SOMEWHERE. He can run up into the middle of them and start whacking.

That somehow gives Roy an excuse not to optimize to his team's strengths?

To paraphrase Haley, that assumes that one has control over his comrade's actions.

He has a +5 sword, very high strength, GWF and ample sources of buffs, including both a bard and a cleric. He can easily hit most foes even with the reduction.

Then put it towards power attack. He the one with the high HP. If people are swinging at him its a good thing.

What does "schtick" have to do with buffing Roy or not?

It has to do with using that particular and very useful buff, enlarge person. It won't be used on Roy regularly because getting big to whallop things is durkons thing.

Math_Mage

2010-02-03, 10:07 PM

Not much to say, just this one thing:

And can include several dozen homebrew domains.

None of the OotS appear to have been significantly non-Core at the beginning. I mean, now Elan has Dashing Swordsman and Roy has his anti-spellcaster feat, but that was a consequence of story and RP-heavy character development. Durkon seems particularly straight-laced in this regard. Do you really think he's been packing a secret homebrew domain under his belt for 700 strips plus however many there were in Vol. 0?

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-03, 10:36 PM

Not much to say, just this one thing:

None of the OotS appear to have been significantly non-Core at the beginning. I mean, now Elan has Dashing Swordsman and Roy has his anti-spellcaster feat, but that was a consequence of story and RP-heavy character development. Durkon seems particularly straight-laced in this regard. Do you really think he's been packing a secret homebrew domain under his belt for 700 strips plus however many there were in Vol. 0?

Since a domain would be a defining characteristic, and Durkons defining characteristic is that he doesn't have any, i think its amazing we have ok info on one of his domain's, much less 2.

Math_Mage

2010-02-03, 11:26 PM

Since a domain would be a defining characteristic, and Durkons defining characteristic is that he doesn't have any, i think its amazing we have ok info on one of his domain's, much less 2.

But is the argument that because his second domain is unknown, that it could be a bad homebrew and therefore poor optimization? Given that the rest of the party was entirely Core at the start of the strip, IIRC, I find it extremely unlikely that Durkon's second domain is the only departure from that norm, and even more unlikely that if so, it's worse than anything available to him in Core. Optimystik noted that any Core domain he's likely to have as a cleric of Thor would be fine for optimization, so it seems to me like you're going a long way out of your way to undermine that notion. Occam's Razor and all that.

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-04, 12:33 AM

But is the argument that because his second domain is unknown, that it could be a bad homebrew and therefore poor optimization?

No, i'm saying we can't say that its good optimization because we don't even know what it is. The argument was that his second domain was crunchy because he was the most optimized and he was the most optimized because he could have 2 good domains.

Given that the rest of the party was entirely Core at the start of the strip, IIRC, I find it extremely unlikely that Durkon's second domain is the only departure from that norm, and even more unlikely that if so, it's worse than anything available to him in Core. Optimystik noted that any Core domain he's likely to have as a cleric of Thor would be fine for optimization, so it seems to me like you're going a long way out of your way to undermine that notion. Occam's Razor and all that.

First off, we don't know that Durkon has access to the air domain. None of them grant a spell called thors lightning. Even if you take thors lightning to be lightning bolt, the closest thing that the domain actually grants that is chain lightning. 1) we've seen that in use and it didn't match the affect of thors lightning 2) that was a bit high level to be used pre battle of azure city.

It is my contention that durkons domains are in the "unspecified" catagory, as are his feats, skill points, and any decision what so ever about his character besides LG dwarf cleric. Since you're a fan of my favorite shaving implement, this is the default status of everything in the comic unless we have information otherwise.

Its hard to judge the optimization of a build that is non existent. I don't think its entirely inaccurate to say that doing nothing to optimize yourself is better than what half of the party has done, but i do find it hilarious.

As to possible candidates

Air is a very good domain. There's just insifficient evidence that he has it. Having looked at the domain after some previous comments, i'm less than convinced he has it.

Chaos is a rather thorish domain, and junk

Destruction is iffy for thor, but very badass.

Good is a possibility, but is only optimal at higher levels.

Healing is one of the worst domains. Not only can you cast every spell on the list already but ANY spell you memorize can be converted to the healing spell. +1 caster level is junk, because its an increasing dice pool plus a linear number.

edit: forgot about lucks granted ability. Not the best fit for thor either.

Strength is a very strong possibility, and optimal. Durkon casts those spells alot.

War rocks at higher levels. Junk until then.

Deliverance

2010-02-04, 06:26 AM

Given how much crap he has to put up with, I'd like to think that Roy has at least taken Iron Will as one of his feats. He surely needs it in his daily life, even if it isn't an optimizer's dream because class X will always be present to cast buff Y when situation Z is encountered (the sort of party-based argumentation in favour of some feats over others that is clearly not applicable in OOTS, where dangerous encounters being met by a split party or even as individuals are commonplace).

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 08:03 AM

No, i'm saying we can't say that its good optimization because we don't even know what it is. The argument was that his second domain was crunchy because he was the most optimized and he was the most optimized because he could have 2 good domains.

The chances of his second domain being bad are very low - the remaining domains that can be reasonably be associated with Thor are all good ones. (See below for your own analysis.)

First off, we don't know that Durkon has access to the air domain. None of them grant a spell called thors lightning.

No, the spell is clearly lightning bolt. Rich is using the optional rule here that clerics can name domain spells after their deities. For example, a Cleric of Ilmater in Faerun with the Strength Domain would call the spell "Ilmater's Grasping Hand" instead of "Bigby's Grasping Hand."

He does this repeatedly with "Thor's Might!" which is quite plainly the Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) spell. There is no spell called "Thor's Might."

(I can't remember if the rule only applies to domain spells, or if it can be applied to rename any cleric spell in this way. If the former, it lends credence to my theory that his second domain is Strength.)

Even if you take thors lightning to be lightning bolt, the closest thing that the domain actually grants that is chain lightning. 1) we've seen that in use and it didn't match the affect of thors lightning 2) that was a bit high level to be used pre battle of azure city.

It is my contention that durkons domains are in the "unspecified" catagory, as are his feats, skill points, and any decision what so ever about his character besides LG dwarf cleric. Since you're a fan of my favorite shaving implement, this is the default status of everything in the comic unless we have information otherwise.

Naturally his exact attributes are unspecified - but that's not the same as not having any. We know he has at least two domains, because that's what the rules say he has. We also know that neither Lightning Bolt nor Chain Lightning are cleric spells. Thus, we have a starting point for deducing what his domains actually are.

You're right about Air not having LB, I was mistaken on that front - perhaps he has Storm instead (which I could only find on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#stormDomain)) - but the point is that he is casting a non-cleric spell to great effect, so it must be a domain spell, unless he has lots of ranks in UMD and some good scrolls that we can't see..

Its hard to judge the optimization of a build that is non existent. I don't think its entirely inaccurate to say that doing nothing to optimize yourself is better than what half of the party has done, but i do find it hilarious.

That is really the fault of the Order's poor choices rather than Durkon's superiority. There simply aren't that many choices for him to make in Core - he knows every spell on his list, can't use DMM, etc. - so he really doesn't have that much room to optimize, whether up or down.

As to possible candidates:

Air is a very good domain. There's just insifficient evidence that he has it. Having looked at the domain after some previous comments, i'm less than convinced he has it.

Chaos is a rather thorish domain, and junk

Destruction is iffy for thor, but very badass.

Good is a possibility, but is only optimal at higher levels.

Healing is one of the worst domains. Not only can you cast every spell on the list already but ANY spell you memorize can be converted to the healing spell. +1 caster level is junk, because its an increasing dice pool plus a linear number.

edit: forgot about lucks granted ability. Not the best fit for thor either.

Strength is a very strong possibility, and optimal. Durkon casts those spells alot.

War rocks at higher levels. Junk until then.

First of all, Chaos is out - he is quite explicitly Lawful (Thor's own alignment aside,) so he can't take it.

As you've said, all of the rest range from decent, to strong (except Healing, but we really have no evidence that he has that.). That was my argument - the chances that his second domain is a good one are pretty high (5/6). The really poor ones, like Death, Sun and Repose, don't fit Thor at all. (And to be honest, neither does Healing, really.)

AgentofOdd

2010-02-04, 08:37 AM

Thanks for the responses derfenrirwolv, Zevox. I'm just recently started learning D&D 3.5 thanks to the comic, and am still figuring out what's good, bad, and broken. :smallsmile:

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-04, 04:06 PM

(I can't remember if the rule only applies to domain spells, or if it can be applied to rename any cleric spell in this way. If the former, it lends credence to my theory that his second domain is Strength.)

It can be done with any spell, Rightousmight is the one that calls attention to the practice.

Naturally his exact attributes are unspecified - but that's not the same as not having any.

For purposes of determining his optimization they are the same. His known attributes are Dwarf cleric of thor.

You're right about Air not having LB, I was mistaken on that front - perhaps he has Storm instead (which I could only find on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#stormDomain)) - but the point is that he is casting a non-cleric spell to great effect, so it must be a domain spell, unless he has lots of ranks in UMD and some good scrolls that we can't see..

Oh, i'm not arguing that its not a domain, what i'm saying is that we don't know if it came from an optimized domain or not.

That is really the fault of the Order's poor choices rather than Durkon's superiority. There simply aren't that many choices for him to make in Core - he knows every spell on his list, can't use DMM, etc. - so he really doesn't have that much room to optimize, whether up or down.

Feats and domain choices.

Its sort of like watching a race. Durkons in the lead because his car is still in park, and everyone else has driven backwards or crashed into a tree.

First of all, Chaos is out - he is quite explicitly Lawful (Thor's own alignment aside,) so he can't take it.

That rule would make sense i just don't know if its a rule.

As you've said, all of the rest range from decent, to strong (except Healing, but we really have no evidence that he has that.). That was my argument - the chances that his second domain is a good one are pretty high (5/6). The really poor ones, like Death, Sun and Repose, don't fit Thor at all. (And to be honest, neither does Healing, really.)

So Durkon is optimized because... Domains are good?

That he gets two domains is a class feature, not a result of his choice or optimization... its a class feature. We don't say haley is optimized because as a rogue she took backstab.. she comes with it.

DavidBV

2010-02-04, 04:36 PM

Well, clerics and wizards are horribly overpowered compared to non-casters, but that hardly has anything to do with optimization. Within their own classes, I would say Roy is probably the one most optimized. Of course he would be much more powerful in melee with a little multiclassing here and there, but as pure class he's very well built.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 05:18 PM

It can be done with any spell, Rightousmight is the one that calls attention to the practice.

Yes, but is that because it is a general spell, or because it is a domain spell? It is on the Strength domain.

For purposes of determining his optimization they are the same. His known attributes are Dwarf cleric of thor.

Right, and clerics have two domains.

Oh, i'm not arguing that its not a domain, what i'm saying is that we don't know if it came from an optimized domain or not.

As Clerics lack offensive magic, and his domain grants it, that is already a more optimal choice than, say, Healing.

Feats and domain choices.

Not enough info for the former, trying to deduce the latter.

Its sort of like watching a race. Durkons in the lead because his car is still in park, and everyone else has driven backwards or crashed into a tree.

That's a good analogy; but this exercise isn't really about HOW he got into first place, merely that he is.

That rule would make sense i just don't know if its a rule.

From the SRD:

A cleric can select an alignment domain (Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law) only if his alignment matches that domain.

So Durkon is optimized because... Domains are good?

That he gets two domains is a class feature, not a result of his choice or optimization... its a class feature. We don't say haley is optimized because as a rogue she took backstab.. she comes with it.

He's optimized because he chose one good domain, and has a very high probability of having chosen two good domains.

That is the key to optimization - choice.

Haley can't choose anything in place of sneak attack. (Well, she could if she were a feat rogue, but that's a technicality.)

derfenrirwolv

2010-02-04, 10:32 PM

Yes, but is that because it is a general spell, or because it is a domain spell? It is on the Strength domain.

As a general spell. It being on the domain list doesn't prevent every single cleric from learning it.

As Clerics lack offensive magic, and his domain grants it, that is already a more optimal choice than, say, Healing.

Now hold on, all we know is that his domain grants a lightning like attack as either a spell (more likely) or as a granted power (less likely) Its other features could be the worst domain ever put together for all we know.

That's a good analogy; but this exercise isn't really about HOW he got into first place, merely that he is.

Well, if we agree that Durkon has gone almost nowhere, we need to look for party members that have gone somewhere. Roy has power attack, cleave, and weapon specialization in a two handed greatsword, which is an excellent fighter for.. well.. a fighter (which is kind of like being the hardest worker on a state job). V may be a blaster, but he's selected the right feats to be a blaster, has expanded his spell repertoire to pick up a number of useful spells, and blasting isn't as sub optimal in OOTS as it is in most campaigns. Haley has a good, solid theme going with her archery and high dex high initiative is as valid an optimization path as any for a rogue.

From the SRD:

AH ok. forgot about that one.

Haley can't choose anything in place of sneak attack. (Well, she could if she were a feat rogue, but that's a technicality.)

Durkon can't choose anything in place of 2 domains, 1 of which is obviously home brewed and the other we know nothing about.

factotum

2010-02-05, 02:15 AM

Now hold on, all we know is that his domain grants a lightning like attack as either a spell (more likely) or as a granted power (less likely) Its other features could be the worst domain ever put together for all we know.

However, given that clerics don't get much in the way of offensive magic, the fact his domain grants him even ONE such spell means it's filling in a gap in his armoury and is therefore a good choice, even if none of the other spells granted are particularly useful. We can't say for sure it's the MOST optimal choice, but we can say with some certainty that it is some degree of optimal, which certainly puts him ahead of the game compared to most of his compatriots!

Optimystik

2010-02-05, 07:51 AM

As a general spell. It being on the domain list doesn't prevent every single cleric from learning it.

That's irrelevant - the point is, if the rule only applies to domain spells, it would still apply to Righteous Might, as it is a domain spell even if it is also on the general list.

Now hold on, all we know is that his domain grants a lightning like attack as either a spell (more likely) or as a granted power (less likely) Its other features could be the worst domain ever put together for all we know.

But all Clerics really need on their list is offensive magic. Their general spells cover everything else. So any domain that grants offensive power is a good choice.

Well, if we agree that Durkon has gone almost nowhere, we need to look for party members that have gone somewhere. Roy has power attack, cleave, and weapon specialization in a two handed greatsword, which is an excellent fighter for.. well.. a fighter (which is kind of like being the hardest worker on a state job). V may be a blaster, but he's selected the right feats to be a blaster, has expanded his spell repertoire to pick up a number of useful spells, and blasting isn't as sub optimal in OOTS as it is in most campaigns. Haley has a good, solid theme going with her archery and high dex high initiative is as valid an optimization path as any for a rogue.

I'll concede that Roy has done a reasonable job with what he had to work with. (V quite pointedly has not - it such a key part of his character that even he has realized this.)

But I still can't consider Roy the most optimized. He has at least 1 mediocre feat (Great Cleave) and, as far as we have seen, is not putting his high mental scores to any meaningful use. They are just there - hence the deva's comment - and not helping him very much at all.

Durkon can't choose anything in place of 2 domains, 1 of which is obviously home brewed and the other we know nothing about.

It's not "obvious" - I've already found one domain with lightning bolt on the list, there are bound to be more.

And even if it was homebrewed, it was still a good choice for him, for the above reasons.

paddyfool

2010-02-05, 08:02 AM

Dusk Eclipse

2010-02-05, 09:09 AM

@Optimystik: Although a perfect fit thematically, by the Storm domain is written for the domain wizard variant, not for clerics. Also, without a domain ability, and mostly blaster spells, it's not really an optimised choice either.

I am quite sure there is a storm domain in either stormwrack (most posilbe) or the Spell compendium

Optimystik

2010-02-05, 09:32 AM

@Optimystik: Although a perfect fit thematically, by the Storm domain is written for the domain wizard variant, not for clerics. Also, without a domain ability, and mostly blaster spells, it's not really an optimised choice either.

Blaster spells are what a high-Wis cleric needs. They already have plenty of the other stuff, thanks to knowing their entire list.

It's the same reason Air is a powerful domain in NWN - because without it, you don't actually get an attack spell until level 7 (Hammer of the Gods) and you don't get a good one until level 9 (Flamestrike.)

And I merely brought up Storm to illustrate my point - the Giant doesn't have to homebrew, to have given Durkon a decent domain(s).

Pyron

2010-02-05, 05:22 PM

I am quite sure there is a storm domain in either stormwrack (most posilbe) or the Spell compendium

There is also the Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#weatherDomain) domain - a raw Thor domain (using Deity and Demigods) right in the SRD.

Optimystik

2010-02-05, 05:32 PM

There is also the Weather (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/domains.htm#weatherDomain) domain - a raw Thor domain (using Deity and Demigods) right in the SRD.

Weather suffers from the same problem as Air - no Lightning Bolt.

While the spell he is using may instead be Call Lightning rather than Lightning Bolt, the fact that Durkon can shoot it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html) in a straight line from him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html) suggests it is not.

For contrast, this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html) would be Call Lightning (for which he also says "Thor's Lightning!")

Pyron

2010-02-05, 05:47 PM

Weather suffers from the same problem as Air - no Lightning Bolt.

The Cleric's Storm domain suffers the same problem.

Asta Kask

2010-02-06, 03:41 AM

Could it have been Call Lightning?

Optimystik

2010-02-06, 09:16 AM

Could it have been Call Lightning?

He definitely uses the phrase with Call Lightning (see my last link in my previous post) but the other times he fires lightning, it comes from him rather than from the sky.

Milandros

2010-02-06, 12:55 PM

Define "optimised".

If you mean "optimised for pure combat against level-equivalent foes, particularly single monsters" that can be a lot, lot different from "optimised for a particular game". The classic "pick levels from 7 classes, 3 of which are devote-your-life-to PrC organisations and don't forget to use every single obscure splatbook" builds would be useless in many games. The uber-killer who can deal out enormous damage but used int and cha as his "useless" dump stats will be far less useful in a politics-heavy game while trying to negotiate with the elven Minister of Protocol of the high court of Araura.

I think a lot of optimised builds really aren't, if you play them from, say, 1st to 12th level. I know that some people would never consider creating acharacter below 20th level, but many, many games, even today, start at the beginning - and the careful feat choice for perfect combos at 20th can be pretty useless at 3rd level.

So, in this case, as the world is designed for humorous story-telling, I think they're all very well optimised. They have excellent flaws and errors which make them interesting and give great comic potential. If they had been "unoptimised" - i.e. perfect killing machines - the comic would fail.

Lamech

2010-02-06, 04:25 PM

It keeps getting brought up that lighting bolt is a good choice for a cleric because they don't have blastity spells to hit people with. Now what exactly is meant by blastity spells; I assume you mean spells that do xd6 points of damage a level, like flames strike, blade barrier, or fire storm. All those spells I took off the cleric list

Also if Durkon isn't worried about Belkar he should be able to just throw holy words around until something breaks. Anything below his CL is blinded, anything five levels below is paralyzed AND helpless and therefore as good as dead.

And he has SoD's just for added stuipididties sake. Plane shift, slay living ect.

Clerics of Durkon's level don't really lack offensive spells...

Edit: Slime wave, sound lance radiant assult, moon bolt, ice flowers, comet fall, heat drain, and hypothermia, some more offense in Durkon's spell list.

Optimystik

2010-02-06, 06:45 PM

Define "optimised".

The same definition it always has - not wasting the potential of their race, class, feats, spells and specializations.

It keeps getting brought up that lighting bolt is a good choice for a cleric because they don't have blastity spells to hit people with. Now what exactly is meant by blastity spells; I assume you mean spells that do xd6 points of damage a level, like flames strike, blade barrier, or fire storm. All those spells I took off the cleric list

Also if Durkon isn't worried about Belkar he should be able to just throw holy words around until something breaks. Anything below his CL is blinded, anything five levels below is paralyzed AND helpless and therefore as good as dead.

And he has SoD's just for added stuipididties sake. Plane shift, slay living ect.

These are all 5th level or higher. If your cleric isn't built for melee, wouldn't you want him shooting things some time before level 9?

And even if he is built for melee, options are good. Any cleric can wade into melee, but not every cleric can hang back and blast when needed. There are plenty of CR-appropriate encounters before 9th level that can make melee dangerous for a cleric.

Clerics of Durkon's level don't really lack offensive spells...

Generally you have to live long enough to get to that level. That's what picking good domains is for.

If you start a campaign at level 9+, then of course offensive magic domains aren't as important. But in an actual game world where you have to start at level 1, some offensive punch that doesn't require you to enter melee is extremely useful for every caster.

Edit: Slime wave, sound lance radiant assult, moon bolt, ice flowers, comet fall, heat drain, and hypothermia, some more offense in Durkon's spell list.

We can't be sure the Giant is using Spell Compendium, or even if he's letting Clerics access it if he is. Tsukiko's Orbs are in Complete Arcane as well - and given the Warlock references, that is a more likely source. (Tome & Blood as well, but that's 3.0.)

hamishspence

2010-02-06, 06:57 PM

The Windstorm domain (Spell Compendium) has a 5th level spell very similar to Lightning Bolt in some ways- Arc of Lightning. However, this is fairly short ranged, and creates a line of lightning between two enemy creatures- affecting them and everything in between.

It also has Cloudwalkers- which is a bit like Overland Flight, but shorter duration. Possibly better speed and maneuverability though.

factotum

2010-02-07, 02:34 AM

How does that spell compare to Wind Walk? If it's a functionally better spell then Durkon would have used it to travel to Greysky City, so that would tell us if he's likely to know it or not.

Optimystik

2010-02-07, 10:09 AM

How does that spell compare to Wind Walk? If it's a functionally better spell then Durkon would have used it to travel to Greysky City, so that would tell us if he's likely to know it or not.

It's not. It can affect more targets, but only lasts 10 min./level, and grants 60ft. fly speed (perfect) instead of the 600 ft. (poor) that Wind Walk does. If you know where you're going, know that it's a long way away and you aren't going to get into any encounters, Wind Walk is better by far.

Milandros

2010-02-07, 02:15 PM

Define "optimised".
The same definition it always has - not wasting the potential of their race, class, feats, spells and specializations.

While I agree with the rest of your post, there's a clarification to be made here - "not wasting" can mean completely different things in different games.

For example, a rogue can be wasting his potential by spending skill points on useless skills like UMD, rope use, climb, sleigh of hands. The campaign has no magic shops, so no popping out to get a wand of CLW. You get only what the DM has put in treasure. The campaign is heavily politics-based, with the backdrop of a conflict brewing over the discovery of ancient ruins. A well-optmised rogue will use his high number of skill points on Knowledge(Nobility and Royalty), Knowledge(History), Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering), Knowledge(Local), Knowledge(Geography), Perform(Dance), Diplomacy and Bluff, and maybe Tumble for the occasional fight.

Or, that's all useless. A properly optimised rogue will concentrate on UMD, Tumble, Knowledge(Local), Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Sleigh of Hands, Disable Device, Open Locks and so on. The campaign involves a group of rogues attempting to set up a new Thieves' Guild in a large city and displace the existing, brutal organisation that already exists.

So, in this case, as the goal of the "campaign" is to provide humour while telling a story involving problems and struggles and success in spite of their flaws, I'd say the Order of the Stick is very well optimised indeed.

Optimystik

2010-02-07, 03:03 PM

So, in this case, as the goal of the "campaign" is to provide humour while telling a story involving problems and struggles and success in spite of their flaws, I'd say the Order of the Stick is very well optimised indeed.

If humor was all they did, then I would agree with you. But they have plenty of combat to do as well.

Consider Cliffport - had Roy been an optimized tripper, Sabine would have gone down like the Dow Jones, buffs or no buffs. He would have dealt with her so quickly that he might have been back outside before Elan got kidnapped, or even in time to see it happen.

Had V been any other kind of wizard but a blaster, he wouldn't have been as demolished by Leeky as he was. A conjurer could have fielded an army of summons to keep the treants busy, while making their lives miserable with grease, glitterdust and web. Had he used polymorph, he could have avoided being surrounded by them easily as well. An optimized enchanter or illusionist would have Leeky drooling - Druids don't get Pro: Evil to ward their heads.

So while I agree with you that humor is their primary purpose, they can't neglect combat prowess because of it.