PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Iron Tortoise, a shield fighter's discipline [ToB, Discipline]



ErrantX
2010-01-31, 12:44 PM
Reposting as this is old and I've done significant edits.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 01:03 PM
Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise could be too powerful.

Using Krimm's homebrew feat Signature Move, you can use it every round, essentially becoming invincible (unless a spellcaster decides to cast wish or something).

Not only that, but it affects all your allies? And there's no restrictions or penalties. And there's no provided examples of counters.

I only looked at the 9th level maneuver...so I might get back to this later.

ErrantX
2010-01-31, 01:07 PM
Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise could be too powerful.

Using Krimm's homebrew feat Signature Move, you can use it every round, essentially becoming invincible (unless a spellcaster decides to cast wish or something).

Not only that, but it affects all your allies? And there's no restrictions or penalties. And there's no provided examples of counters.

I only looked at the 9th level maneuver...so I might get back to this later.

Well, sure, yeah, if you augment homebrew with someone else's homebrew, I'm sure it could become devastatingly overpowered :smalltongue: I am unfamiliar with that feat of his though. I'm sure it needs some clarifications on the 9th. It protects all adjacent allies, thus, they need to be surrounding you to gain its protection.

One thing I don't understand is what you mean by "no provided examples of counters". What do you mean by this?

-X

Temotei
2010-01-31, 01:10 PM
Well, sure, yeah, if you augment homebrew with someone else's homebrew, I'm sure it could become devastatingly overpowered :smalltongue: I am unfamiliar with that feat of his though. I'm sure it needs some clarifications on the 9th. It protects all adjacent allies, thus, they need to be surrounding you to gain its protection.

One thing I don't understand is what you mean by "no provided examples of counters". What do you mean by this?

-X

There's nothing listed for reference to counter it. Are there any attacks to prevent you from using it? Are you prevented from using it when you're flat-footed? Do touch attacks negate the invulnerability?

Et cetera.

ErrantX
2010-01-31, 01:26 PM
There's nothing listed for reference to counter it. Are there any attacks to prevent you from using it? Are you prevented from using it when you're flat-footed? Do touch attacks negate the invulnerability?

Et cetera.

Well, it itself is a counter. Counter a counter? The idea is that it is a one round perfect defense. You just need to make sure you have an immediate action to defend yourself with it. You need to have a shield, that's one weakness to it. If you are unable for whatever reason to initiate a martial maneuver, such as if you're paralyzed or stunned, unconscious or something, no you couldn't use it but that's pretty much anything. That's part of those conditions. As far as flat-footed, yeah, I should put that in as a listed weakness. That makes sense. Any attack that would remove your shield from you would prevent you from using it, and many spells are touch attacks, so allowing that would defeat the purpose. The idea is that it is an invulnerable aegis that defends you and your adjacent allies from harm for a round.

I will include a stipulation that you must not be caught flat-footed or surprised by the attack you wish to counter with it (even though counters are terribly vague as far as how the ToB rules on them; they just work regardless of your condition) as it is kind of a potent ability (for 9th level it should be!)

-X

Temotei
2010-01-31, 01:29 PM
Well, it itself is a counter. Counter a counter? The idea is that it is a one round perfect defense. You just need to make sure you have an immediate action to defend yourself with it. You need to have a shield, that's one weakness to it. If you are unable for whatever reason to initiate a martial maneuver, such as if you're paralyzed or stunned, unconscious or something, no you couldn't use it but that's pretty much anything. That's part of those conditions. As far as flat-footed, yeah, I should put that in as a listed weakness. That makes sense. Any attack that would remove your shield from you would prevent you from using it, and many spells are touch attacks, so allowing that would defeat the purpose. The idea is that it is an invulnerable aegis that defends you and your adjacent allies from harm for a round.

I will include a stipulation that you must not be caught flat-footed or surprised by the attack you wish to counter with it (even though counters are terribly vague as far as how the ToB rules on them; they just work regardless of your condition) as it is kind of a potent ability (for 9th level it should be!)

-X

Agreed. :smallcool:

ErrantX
2010-01-31, 01:46 PM
Change made to the 9th level counter.

Okay, so, what else? :smallsmile:

-X

Flarp
2010-01-31, 01:53 PM
This is probably the most petty criticism I've ever indulged, but it was the first that struck me when I read the thread title.

Considering there's already an Iron-something discipline, wouldn't it make sense for it to be something else? Steel Tortoise, maybe.

Mechanics-wise, it's totally fine, though.

EDIT: Is Defending Shell Stance's "initiator level" referring to initiative order (if so, ascending or descending), initiative modifier, or some ToB concept that I'm not familiar with?

ErrantX
2010-01-31, 01:58 PM
This is probably the most petty criticism I've ever indulged, but it was the first that struck me when I read the thread title.

Considering there's already an Iron-something discipline, wouldn't it make sense for it to be something else? Steel Tortoise, maybe.

Mechanics-wise, it's totally fine, though.

Hahaha, it's fine, it's cool :)

It's for my Libram of Battle project, it throws out the entirety of the ToB and replaces the disciplines with a new set of 20 or so disciplines, new classes, etc. To avoid confusion, Steel Tortoise would be a perfectly reasonable name for it. I didn't name it that because we have an assassination discipline called Steel Serpent that is in the works!


EDIT: Is Defending Shell Stance's "initiator level" referring to initiative order (if so, ascending or descending), initiative modifier, or some ToB concept that I'm not familiar with?

Neither, actually. Martial adepts use a mechanic called their Inititiator Level, it's just like a spellcaster's Caster Level, or a psion's Manifester Level. A martial adept initiates maneuvers, thus, they are an initiator. Hope that helps! Not sure how familiar you are with the Tome of Battle.

But thank you, appreciate you saying that the mechanics are sound!

-X

Reaper_Monkey
2010-01-31, 02:27 PM
It seems pretty well rounded, although I'm no expert on ToB balance though so I cant comment too much on that aspect of things.

If I could however offer some suggestions for other moves that seem logical?

It strikes me that its lacking an overrun ability which would be most befitting. You have Snapping Turtle Charge which is similar, but I want to see someone surge through a group of foes, batting them aside with their shield and dealing minor damage as they do so.

I could see a guy with this stance holding a breach single handedly, but with foes using tumble he aint going to stop them passing too easily. Maybe adding something like making the terrain around them become difficult and harder to tumble through would make sense into Iron Tortoise Stance? Or just stating that while in Stance of the Turtle Knight nothing else can move through your square too?

A completely radical and alternative to the "aggro" moves (as I've always had an issue with those sort of mechanics) could be something along the lines of reducing the movement of any foe who moves past you (perhaps 10ft range) and doesn't attempt to attack you. Described as making foes cautious of your ability to strike suddenly whilst remaining defended and thus making them waste more time/effort avoiding you. This wouldn't prevent foes from attacking your allies, but if the speed reduction is great enough it could mean that they just never get close enough to do so and are forced to attack you first.

Otherwise what you have seems quite flavourful and interesting, your level 9 ability is certainly potent and enticing, does the protection prevent unwilling movement btw? Such as if a foe used Shell Shock on one of your allies, the damage would be negated, but would the movement it produced also be countered?

Da Beast
2010-01-31, 02:42 PM
I will include a stipulation that you must not be caught flat-footed or surprised by the attack you wish to counter with it (even though counters are terribly vague as far as how the ToB rules on them; they just work regardless of your condition) as it is kind of a potent ability (for 9th level it should be!)

-X

This still seems way too powerful to me. Compare it to Timeless Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timelessBody.htm). Timeless body negates all harmful and helpful effects until the end of your next turn, only works on you, and takes a standard action to manifest (can't even be quickened). That's a ninth level power. Spells and powers should be stronger than maneuvers. Your counter protects yourself as well as allies, allows helpful effects to still get through, is an immediate action and, since it's a maneuver, can be used as many times as you want per day. A warblade or swordsage with this maneuver and the adaptive style feat could use a full round action to refresh their maneuvers every round, creating a bastion of impenetrable defense. He may not be able to do anything, but the rest of the party could stand around the initiator and rain death down on anything foolish enough to stand against them. With the proper spells (dimension hop, slide) it doesn't even matter that you wouldn't be able to move.

Knaight
2010-01-31, 02:51 PM
Smashing Shell is really broken for its level. Other than that, yeah, a rename could be good.

Flarp
2010-01-31, 02:52 PM
Neither, actually. Martial adepts use a mechanic called their Inititiator Level, it's just like a spellcaster's Caster Level, or a psion's Manifester Level. A martial adept initiates maneuvers, thus, they are an initiator. Hope that helps! Not sure how familiar you are with the Tome of Battle.

But thank you, appreciate you saying that the mechanics are sound!

-X

Ah, thanks. It's been awhile since I've actually read the ToB mechanics.

Also - again, on Defending Shell - at the level you get it seems sort of... useless. Considering that it won't grant any AC (unless it has a minimum value, which it doesn't appear to) until level 4, and at level 5 the Iron Tortoise stance grants 2 AC and increase AoO range, the stance is somewhat redundant at all levels except 4.

At level 12, when the AC boost would outshine that of Iron Tortoise stance, you now have Stance of the Turtle Knight, which boosts AC by 4 and grants Uncanny Dodge (albeit while standing still).

The only levels where there won't be another stance that grants equal or more AC (as well as other effects) are 4 and 20 - and level twenties are going to almost certainly be using some of the better stances.

Fizban
2010-01-31, 04:40 PM
A couple things: you don't have prerequisites listed. They probably follow a simple formula, but it's something the book lists with every maneuver, so I'd do so here as well.

Keeping up with petty naming conventions, in addition to something like Steel Tortoise, I'd change the names of the maneuvers that penalize enemy attacks. Since it's a common enough idea, anytime I hear "taunt" I assume it's going to force someone to attack you, so the penalty maneuvers could use something else. I'd go with the idea of "surrounding" them with your shield, getting up in their face so they can't get past your shield to attack anyone but you. Best I can think might be Impassable Shell.

A different idea for replacing the "aggro" mechanics: you could steal an idea from the Races of War project, and make it a threat of more damage if they don't attack you. The lower one would be "after initiating this boost, if the target enemy does not attack you before your next round, you gain +xd6 damage on all attacks against him for that round", and the higher level one would apply against all enemies. If used after an Impassable Shell attack it basically gives them no reason to try attacking anyone but you, at which point you counter attack them anyway.

I don't have any problem with the 9th level maneuver. Yes, it's uber. It's also a 9th level maneuver that doesn't actually damage your enemy in any way.

Da Beast
2010-01-31, 06:39 PM
I don't have any problem with the 9th level maneuver. Yes, it's uber. It's also a 9th level maneuver that doesn't actually damage your enemy in any way.

It lets you make yourself and up to eight other people invincible. With one feat that pretty much every initiator takes (adaptive style) you can do it every round, forever. With uncanny dodge, which Warblades get at level two, you can't be caught flat footed either. How is that not broken?

Try making a warforged warblade (never needs to sleep), put him on a cart, and strap that to the party barbarian. Now the barbarian can wheal around the warbalde while the rest of the party holds formation around them. Congratulations, you win! For added fun, make the warblade someone's cohort/dominated monster so no one has to bother playing the group shield battery.

Reaper_Monkey
2010-01-31, 07:00 PM
It lets you make yourself and up to eight other people invincible. ... Congratulations, you win!

Fair enough, slap a "You cannot use this maneuvers more than five times every minute" or "You cannot use this maneuvers on consecutive rounds" or "After activating this maneuvers you cannot reactivate it for the following three rounds even if it is readied" et cetera et cetera. Its a perfectly valid ability, its just a little too potent if (ab)used every turn.

imp_fireball
2010-01-31, 08:29 PM
This is pretty powerful, but then again it only fills one niche, so I'm okay with it.

Everyone else is already tearing apart that 9th level maneuver, so I won't comment on it.

I'm a little rusty on my ToB (haven't read it all that recently) - is there such a thing as epic maneuvers? I know there's rules for customizing maneuvers in-game (similar to inventing a spell).

But yah, epic maneuvers totally fills the trope of 'train hard enough and you can punt sky scrapers' as seen in one too many animes (notably DBZ and others).

Da Beast
2010-01-31, 08:37 PM
Fair enough, slap a "You cannot use this maneuvers more than five times every minute" or "You cannot use this maneuvers on consecutive rounds" or "After activating this maneuvers you cannot reactivate it for the following three rounds even if it is readied" et cetera et cetera. Its a perfectly valid ability, its just a little too potent if (ab)used every turn.

It's still blatantly better than timeless body, the closest existing ability I can think of, in every possible way. And timeless body is a ninth level power (which should definitely be better than ninth level maneuvers) that catches flack for being too good.

Edit: I don't personally think timeless body is over powered, but I have seen that accusation leveled against it quite a few times. This maneuver is definitely op.

Lapak
2010-01-31, 08:59 PM
Try making a warforged warblade (never needs to sleep), put him on a cart, and strap that to the party barbarian. Now the barbarian can wheal around the warbalde while the rest of the party holds formation around them. Congratulations, you win! For added fun, make the warblade someone's cohort/dominated monster so no one has to bother playing the group shield battery.One potential solution is to cut it down to just one person. Not necessarily the initiator; let it affect 'self or one adjacent creature.' Or even 'self OR up to three adjacent creatures', but not both at the same time.

Now it does what good defensive maneuvers SHOULD do: give the enemy a reason to attack you. If you shield the party's cannon, they'll try to kill YOU instead.

Da Beast
2010-01-31, 09:46 PM
The complete protection from everything still seems out of line with the other ninth level maneuvers. For comparison, the ninth level tiger claw maneuver, something-I-can't-remember-the-name-of-because-ToB-is-at-home-right-now strike, makes whoever you hit with it pass a fortitude save or die instantly, putting it on about the same level as finger of death, a 7th level spell. Invulnerable shell of the Iron Tortoise on the other hand, makes the 9th level power Timeless Body look like complete crap. Even if you limit it to just yourself or one other character, the immediate action activation time and fact that it lets helpful effects through still puts invulnerable shell miles ahead of timeless body, a supposedly broken power. It should be hard to find a 9th level spell or power that's even comparable to a 9th level maneuver, and those spells should be the ones that players completely ignore. 9th level spells/powers should be straight up better than 9th level maneuvers. If it's the other way around, you've gone too far.

If invulnerable shell provided high damage reduction and a decent save bonus, that would be one thing. The total invincibility however, is far and away too good.

Proven_Paradox
2010-01-31, 11:20 PM
I'm going to do a pretty in-depth critique of this, mainly because I've got a character I would like to use this on. However, as-is it contains some entirely overpowered maneuvers next to a few pretty much useless ones. I like the concept and the overall execution, but it needs work on balance.

(On an un-related note, I really like the picture that goes with this. Who's the artist so that I might look up more of his/her work?)

On a general note: this "initiating stat" business on saves is rather unclear. None of the established disciplines have a changing save type based on what class initiates it. I would strongly recommend choosing an ability and sticking with it. Seeing at this is a discipline focused on grit, determination, and defense, I'd say the choice is obvious: constitution.

Also, it's not entirely clear whether some of these maneuvers can be used against magical attacks or not. When defending against an 'attack' it would be helpful to take some time to really define what is and isn't covered.

Anyway, a level-by-level breakdown.

1st level
Snapping Strike - This is fine. Standard first level stuff.

Angering Hit: Strike- Also fine. Somewhat wonky name, but that's okay.

Stance of the Defending Shell - As already stated, this one is pretty much worthless. Levels 1-4, this does nothing, and once it does actually do something, better options are available. This needs work.

Iron Shell - Iron Heart has Wall of Blades, which is basically this without the shield bonus, as a second level maneuver. This is a first level maneuver better than another discipline's second level maneuver. Overpowered. A nerf is badly needed.

2nd level
Enraging Strike - The only attack related bit the Rage spell gives you is +2 strength. Adding and removing the constitution boost for just one round adds a lot of unneeded bookkeeping, and the AC bonus shouldn't be applied for balance reasons. The wording would be a lot clearer if you said something like "the target gets a +1 moral bonus to attack and damage against the initiator for one round" or something like that.

Power-wise, the damage here is a bit much--the only other second maneuver that does 10 damage is Battle Leader's Charge, and it's only other effect is removing the AoOs on a charge attack. This does significantly more than that. I would reduce the damage. If you must have it stay a fixed amoung of damage, put it down to 5. I think 1d6 would be better, myself.

Tortoise Trip - This has the most in common with Iron Heart's Disarming Strike, so I think using it as a balance point is a good idea. I personally would say that like Disarming Strike, Tortoise Trip wouldn't provoke AoOs on the trip attempt (which it currently does), but also remove the +4 bonus on the trip attempt.

Turtle Shell Wall - Identical in all ways to Devoted Spirit's Shield Block maneuver, except it also applies to touch attack. That's too much. Just make it a clone of Shield Block. It's okay to have maneuvers from two different schools do the same thing: Look at DS's Foehammer and SD's Mountain Hammer.

Tortoise Taunt - I think taking some more effort to clarify what counts as an attack would be helpful here. Furthermore, this should not affect unintelligent enemies. It certainly needs the mind affecting tag. I suggest looking to the Goad feat (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Goad) for help with the wording.

3rd level
Greater Snapping Strike - On the strong side of 3rd level maneuvers, but not unacceptably so. Stone Dragon's Bonecrusder does the same damage, but penetrating DR is better than the crit confirm. I suggest lowering the damage to 3d6, putting it more in line with other third level maneuvers.

Defensive Shell - This one seems really wonky to me. The most a warrior is liable to get out of this is +2 AC for one round. Meanwhile, over in Desert Wind, there's Zephyr Dance, which gives +4 AC against one attack. Is there any reason not to just make this a clone of Zephyr Dance? A lot more straightforward, and in most circumstances the result is better.

Mirror Shell - The wording on this confused me terribly the first time I read it. In the extended description, you should make it clearer that the spell is merely negated: I was looking for some description of where you 'deflect' it to. Balance-wise, this is sitting next to White Raven Tactics and Iron Heart Surge. Negating a single target spell seems pretty tame next to those power houses.

Iron Tortoise Stance - WHOA Whoa whoa, take a step back and think about this one for a second. Iron Heart, level 5 stance, Dancing Blade Form. That is two levels higher, and furthermore I would call it a really good stance, and this stance is considerably better than it. Completely overpowered. To fix this: remove the AC bonus (which has the happy effect of making Stance of the Defending Shell more appealing), then make it fifth level.

4th level
Smashing Shell - Again, slow down and take a look at other maneuvers. Diamond Mind 5: Disrupting Strike. Iron Heart 5: Dazing Strike. Both of these are a level higher, and have the effect of denying an opponent actions on a successful (normal) attack and failed save, and that's all. This attacks flat-footed, does extra damage (in fact, more damage than any other strike of this level other than Divine Surge, which does nothing BUT damage), and stuns the target (who, in addition to being unable to act, drops anything he's holding, is flatfooted, and takes an ADDITIONAL -2 AC. This is in dire need of the nerf stick. EXTRA ITALICS AND CAPS FOR EMPHASIS.

Snapping Riposte - I think the additional damage is too much. Just countering a missed attack is plenty.

Taunting Turtle - Making this cumulative on a single target strikes me as too much, but this is otherwise fine.

5th level
Vicious Snapping Strike - Just one level below this is DS: Entangling Blade. It does much the same thing, but only does 2d6 damage. I think reduce the extra damage dice to 4d6.

Stance of the Turtle Knight - This is closest to Stone Dragon's Roots of the Mountain Stance. That's two levels lower, so this should be significantly stronger, but I think you went too far. Instead of immunity to movement, I'd say a +15 or +20 bonus vs. bull-rush/trip/grapple and friends, and I'd also remove the shield bonus. That would put it more in line with the other 5th level stances.

Shell Shock - This is stepping on Setting Sun's toes really badly. First off, the fifth level SS throw is Soaring Throw. Does 8d6 damage (not adding weapon damage) and throws only 20 feet by default. Yes, you can throw farther with higher trip attempts, but the check required get really difficult really fast. First off, lower the damage to 4d6 (since you're adding shield bash damage as well, which can get pretty high if you enhance your shield for that kind of thing). I would also reduce the throwing distance to 15 or 20.

6th level
Quick Snap - This compares well to the other counters in this level - Iron Heart's Manticore Parry and Setting Sun's Scorpion Parry. They negate damage from the attack they redirect. I think the opponent should get a reflex save to take normal damage, but other than that this is okay.

Snapping Turtle Charge - I think the damage on this is a bit high. At the same level, WR's War Leader's Charge does an extra 35 damage and nothing else--35 being the average of 10d6. Since this does damage AND knocks the target prone, I'd say reduce the damage to 6d6 or so.

Steel Shell - This is basically okay.

7th level
Cyclonic Shell Crush - I think you're strongly underestimating the power of stuns. Attacking against every enemy for +4d6 damage is fine for a 7th level maneuver, but adding a stun chance on top of that is way too much. I recommend removing the stun alltogether.


Iron Defender's Riposte - Being a level above Scorpion/Manticore Parry, this looks about right.

Unlimited Aggression - This is okay.

8th level
Glorious Shell Shock - This is way too powerful. 10d6 + weapon damage to multiple targets? Plus knocking them back and leaving them prone? At the same level you have a lot of other abilities that this just blows away. Wyrm's Flame: Just 10d6 damage, no weapon damage added, and it's inferior, easily resisted fire damage, plus they get a save for half. Greater Divine Surge: 6d8 damage, plus more after taking Con damage. (Okay, this one sucks and probably isn't a good point of reference.) White Raven Hamme3r: 6d6 damage and a stun attempt to a single target. The damage needs to be reduced at the very least. Since you're hitting three targets, I'd knock it down to 4d6.

Adamantine Shell - This isn't too bad.

Snapping Turtle Stance - This is either completely overpowered or completely worthless depending something left unclear in its description. Does it count against your normal limit of AoOs for the round? If yes, it's worthless; specialists in this discipline have very low incentives to put more than 12 in dex, so Combat Reflexes won't help them much. If not, it's over powered, especially when combined with all of this discipline's "Fight me, and only me" maneuvers. I suggest re-thinking this one. Off the top of my head, a good and thematic effect I would suggest: While in this stance, your square blocks line of effect against everything behind it (but provides no protection to you). So, you can stand in front of the party while the dragon breaths and keep them safe, that sort of thing.

9th level
Invulnerable Shell of the Iron Tortoise - As others have pointed out, this can be used to give yourself and eight others invulnerability every other round. If there are two Warblades who can initiate it, then that's just "every round." Completely negating attacks is fine for a ninth level maneuver, but not this many. Off the top of my head, maybe limit this to negating, say, five attacks, none of which can be against the same person. It should also be a full-round action; something you set yourself up to do during your turn, and execute during an enemy's turn. Something like that. Either way, this needs some re-tooling.

Bergor Terraf
2010-02-01, 12:56 PM
Why not change the 9th level maneuver so that instead of negating attacks, you simply intercept them? Add to that a good amount of DR (to continue the theme of steel shell and admantite shell), but decrease the DR after each time you receive damage. This would mean that even though you become very resilient, a constant onslaught can bring you down.

If that's not enough to stop the abuse of using this maneuver too often, than just make it deal Con damage on the user after each use, representing the strain on the body it causes.

ErrantX
2010-02-01, 02:02 PM
Expect some revisions of this, hopefully tonight. PrC Contest first, then this. I appreciate all the help you're all giving me. I'm removing this from a Warblade, as it seems to be too easily abused by that class's recovery mechanic. I've posted a note at the top of the OP regarding Initiator Stat; that was my bad, I should have explained that.

I must especially thank Proven_Paradox for the line by line critique; it's precisely what I needed. I shot for the moon on this one, easier to nerf than to bolster in my way of thinking. Thank you, and keep your eyes here!

-X