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Seth1221
2010-01-31, 04:17 PM
OK here's the deal. My friend to-be player wants to create a character similar to "dexter" from the series. My problem is that I don't know these series too well. I know that he's some sort of assassin/undercover cop. That's pretty much it.

Can you guys give me some pointers? My first concern is about class and future prestige class. Skills and feats are on the second plan (but feel free to to post ideas about those as well). Thanks in advance!

Temotei
2010-01-31, 04:42 PM
Aw, man. I was hoping this was for Dexter the scientist from Dexter's Lab.

Sad. :smallsigh:

Seth1221
2010-01-31, 04:45 PM
Heh yeah that was my first reaction as well when I heard about the idea:smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-01-31, 04:48 PM
Put extremely simply, he is a serial killer that preys on other murderers.

Factotum or Beguiler would work well - somebody that uses their noggin to prey upon the fears of targets, is good at noticing patterns, and skilled at getting the job done in a variety of ways.

Good luck with his alignment though.

Temotei
2010-01-31, 04:48 PM
Put extremely simply, he is a serial killer that preys on other murderers.

Factotum or Beguiler would work well - somebody that uses their noggin to prey upon the fears of targets, and is good at noticing patterns.

Good luck with his alignment though.

Chaotic neutral?

The Glyphstone
2010-01-31, 04:48 PM
He's a sociopathic serial killer whose target of choice is other serial killers, working as forensic scientist with the Miami PD to erase evidence of his own crimes while tracking down his victims.

As for a build, it depends on how closely he wants to follow the source material. A Lawful Evil Beguiler would have the high Int and social skills needed to 'blend in' with society, but Dexter the character doesn't have magic powers. Factotum is another good option, but then Factotum is good for anything. For purely non-magical, there's always Rogue.

Optimystik
2010-01-31, 04:50 PM
Chaotic neutral?

You could argue for just about anything, even Good if the people he brutalizes are about to harm innocents.

Similarly, while his tendency to oppose authority lends itself towards Chaos, the number of personal strictures he tries to abide by pushes him somewhat towards Law.

(in before hamish)

Seth1221
2010-01-31, 04:51 PM
Magic is never a bad thing.:smallwink:

Whe it comes to alignement I leave it to the player - if it has sense it's ok in my book.

hamishspence
2010-01-31, 05:00 PM
Nonevil alignment is harder to rationalize with Fiendish Codex 2, Champions of Ruin, BoVD, etc. Still, that doesn't make it impossible.

That said, Complete Scoundrel goes with CN for its sample serial killer- who targets the "rich and morally bankrupt" as opposed to Other Serial Killers. Has the Avenging Executioner PRC from the same book, which has "alignment- nongood" as a requirement.

And the description of a "typical sympathetic villain" in Exemplars of Evil, refers to the person whose goal is to horribly murder everyone who destroyed her village- and has killed innocent people whose only crime was to witness her in action- and she is listed as LN.

So, you can make a case for Evil or Neutral.

For good alignment, you'd probably have to drop the "horribly torture villains before killing them" bit, which is pretty much Dexter's signature feature. In which case, a PRC like Vigilante from Complete Adventurer, or even Slayer of Domiel, from BoED, might work.


(in before hamish)

I know- I drop into alignment threads a lot :smallamused:

lisiecki
2010-01-31, 05:35 PM
Can you guys give me some pointers? My first concern is about class and future prestige class. Skills and feats are on the second plan (but feel free to to post ideas about those as well). Thanks in advance!

LOTS of Demonic feats...

After all the guys dose a have a demon in his head, bossing him a round

(A real demon, not a metaphorical one)

Seth1221
2010-01-31, 05:38 PM
Those are some interesting ideas - both the avenging executioner and vigilante -different aproaches to the character. Those would match esecially good with rogue (or something similar melee-oriented) but the beguiler idea is also intriguing. I'll have to think about that...:smallamused:

The Glyphstone
2010-01-31, 05:39 PM
LOTS of Demonic feats...

After all the guys dose a have a demon in his head, bossing him a round

(A real demon, not a metaphorical one)

That's only in the novels, not the TV show. And unless I'm misremembering, the author realized that was stupid and wrote it out of continuity after a book or two...

FishAreWet
2010-01-31, 05:42 PM
Factotum fits it to a key.

industrious
2010-01-31, 05:42 PM
He wrote out Moloch in the forth book.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-31, 06:35 PM
You could argue for just about anything, even Good if the people he brutalizes are about to harm innocents.

Similarly, while his tendency to oppose authority lends itself towards Chaos, the number of personal strictures he tries to abide by pushes him somewhat towards Law.

(in before hamish)
So, Neutral Evil. He is torn between law and chaos, but evil nonetheless. Brutalizng someone, even if they are 'about' to do something rings up evil in my till of morality.
Really, this is more a role play question then a build question. If he wants to use magic to attain his means, then some form of magic user would be appropriate. A smart enough fighter, Roy level, could pull it off too, sans magic. A rogue would be another obvious choice.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-01-31, 07:07 PM
I second the Avenging Executioner and would like to add some Ghost Faced Killer. He should be a fear based sneak attack killer played like an urban hunter. He'd be something between TN and NE given that the good his actions do is but a side effect if his desire to kill. He's got chaotic urges, but operates primarily with a rigid system.

Optimystik
2010-01-31, 07:19 PM
I know- I drop into alignment threads a lot :smallamused:

That, and I remembered you were talking about wanting a Dexter alignment thread :smallbiggrin: I just decided to give this one a little... nudge.

Tyger
2010-01-31, 07:36 PM
Gotta go with Lawful Evil on the alignment scale though...

His "Code" is everything to him. He has had nothing but angst and pain when he has deviated from it. And evil is pretty much a given - dude drugs and kidnaps people so that he can kill and dismember them. That ain't neutral, that is evil.

Class wise, rogue is probably the best match, but given the existence of magic, beguiler isn't a bad fit either. Though I would say the best bet would be one of the evil paladin varieties... I can't remember them all off the top of my head, but Tyranny is close, and there is one that matches even better.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-01-31, 07:38 PM
That's only in the novels, not the TV show. And unless I'm misremembering, the author realized that was stupid and wrote it out of continuity after a book or two...

It wasn't written out of continuity, it simply isn't that important to bring up in the fourth book. Just like it's never established if Moloch and the Dark Passenger being actual demons were real or not. And I'd also like to point out that each Dexter book is supposed to deal with a different facet of serial killers and their motivations, cults and the possibility of the supernatural was handled remarkably well considering Jeff Lindsay even decided to handle that aspect. Heck, I'm downright looking forward to the cannibalism book.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-31, 07:44 PM
You could argue for just about anything, even Good if the people he brutalizes are about to harm innocents.

Similarly, while his tendency to oppose authority lends itself towards Chaos, the number of personal strictures he tries to abide by pushes him somewhat towards Law.

(in before hamish)

Alignment: Batman

lisiecki
2010-01-31, 07:48 PM
Alignment: Batman

It depends. Batman beats on criminals to keep the innocent safe.

Dexter kills criminals, beause he feels the need to kill, and targets people that people wont minde dead

Ravens_cry
2010-01-31, 07:53 PM
Alignment: Batman
Only Batman usually tries to turn over the criminal element to the appropriate authorities and does. Not. Kill. Even Dark Knight Returns Batman never killed Joker.
The only reason he has the remotest heroic qualities because those he decides to kill are equally, if not more, repugnant. He is a serial killer, a murderer and a torturer. He is not good. He is not neutral. He satisfies his blood lust on those society doesn't mind losing. What he does is still evil.

Dragonmuncher
2010-01-31, 08:07 PM
Someone who slaughters bad guys, while working outside of the law?


Sounds like a good 70% of adventurers...

Samb
2010-01-31, 08:11 PM
I don't recall Dexter ever really torturing any of his targets. He attacks out of the blue, drugs them, ties them down, has a nice chat with them, takes a sample of their blood as a trophy and kills them in one fatal blow.

I don't see torture in there. He has locked up a cop on his tail, and disgrace his reputation but hardly cause unneeded pain for it's own sake.

Other build ideas would be high disguise, use rope, diplomancy, and bluff. Dexter was a great faker. He convinces everyone around him he is a swell guy when he is in fact a monster. Good hide and sneak are canon forhim as well since he was trained by Harry to be that way.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-31, 08:12 PM
Someone who slaughters bad guys, while working outside of the law?


Sounds like a good 70% of adventurers...
That doesn't make it right. Dexter is in our time, so he he doesn't have the 'excuse' of living in world with different values.

Beelzebub1111
2010-01-31, 08:21 PM
Only Batman usually tries to turn over the criminal element to the appropriate authorities and does. Not. Kill. Even Dark Knight Returns Batman never killed Joker.
The only reason he has the remotest heroic qualities because those he decides to kill are equally, if not more, repugnant. He is a serial killer, a murderer and a torturer. He is not good. He is not neutral. He satisfies his blood lust on those society doesn't mind losing. What he does is still evil.
I regrettably inform you that at least one version of batman has killed for pleasure. All-Star Batman. (aka Crazy Steve)

Drakevarg
2010-01-31, 08:23 PM
I regrettably inform you that at least one version of batman has killed for pleasure. All-Star Batman. (aka Crazy Steve)

That wasn't Batman. That was a hobo that stole Batman's costume.

Lapak
2010-01-31, 08:32 PM
I don't recall Dexter ever really torturing any of his targets. He attacks out of the blue, drugs them, ties them down, has a nice chat with them, takes a sample of their blood as a trophy and kills them in one fatal blow. If you think drugging someone, kidnapping them, binding them so that they are helpless, and then 'having a nice chat with them' isn't psychological torture, you're missing an important part of his character. He does that because he needs them to know what is happening, because that makes them suffer, because that feeds his obsession.

And yeah, he's just about the perfect example of a character with Evil alignment who performs Evil actions and has a non-Evil effect on a social level.

Ravens_cry
2010-01-31, 08:35 PM
I regrettably inform you that at least one version of batman has killed for pleasure. All-Star Batman. (aka Crazy Steve)
I regret to inform you that as a fictional construct, someone, though unlikely, could write a Batman story where he goes around in a tutu. In general though, Batman doesn't wear tutu's or kill for pleasure.
Besides, it was by Frank Miller. Frank 'This. Is Sparta!!!!*!' Miller.
What do you expect?

Thurbane
2010-01-31, 08:41 PM
I'm a huge fan of the series (haven't read the books yet), to me it's very hard to picture Dexter as Chaotic-anything. His methodology and planning are so precise (to the point of OCD), I would have to say he is Lawful. LE or LN, depends on your view of how mental illness interracts with alignment in the lands of D&D.

Mystic Muse
2010-01-31, 08:44 PM
Okay now. Let's make a D&D version of Dexter from Dexter's lab and his arch rival "Susan".:smallbiggrin:

just kidding. Continue with your thread.

Samb
2010-01-31, 09:31 PM
If you think drugging someone, kidnapping them, binding them so that they are helpless, and then 'having a nice chat with them' isn't psychological torture, you're missing an important part of his character. He does that because he needs them to know what is happening, because that makes them suffer, because that feeds his obsession.

And yeah, he's just about the perfect example of a character with Evil alignment who performs Evil actions and has a non-Evil effect on a social level.
I do think he is evil, I just don't think what he does is torture. Kind of a detail really and not all that important to his overall alignment.

Hmmm not to sure if that qualifies as torture. I mean he doesn't tease them with the hope of release, it almost seems like he wants to give them a chance at redeeming themselves before he kills them. He did let that kid go when he found out he killed people out of self defense didn't he?

OverdrivePrime
2010-01-31, 10:31 PM
Ah, I love that show. I keep hearing that the books aren't as much fun, so I've stayed away from them for the time being.

Anyway, Dexter, as portrayed on the show is absolutely LE, with a longing to be TN... even does a lot of good actions, just out of a longing to fit in and be seen as normal. Those good actions don't come naturally to him - he has to consider what the 'good thing' is, and then make sure someone sees him do it. Love and belonging absolutely freaks him out in the beginning, though he certainly is protective toward the people that matter in his life. Still, he is a cold and insatiable predator at his core.

As for a build, An Int-based skillmonkey with plenty of skill tricks and improved unarmed strike seems appropriate. Factotum seems highly appropriate, as does an int-based Swordsage (can you use the Kung Fu Genius feat for swordsage?), a rogue could work... or even, strangely, a bard. Glibness anyone? :smallwink:

Ormur
2010-01-31, 10:46 PM
It's probably hard translating his usual method of surprise drugging them and then killing them later to D&D mechanics but it seems like a sneak attack. In D&D you could probably make him kill or reduce people to 0 hit points without others noticing, then dragging them to his lair to getting rid of the evidence and/or killing them. Magic or prestige classes shouldn't be ruled out of course.

Maxed out social skills would be a must, bluff, diplomacy and intimidate. He's incredibly good a interacting with people despite claiming he's faking it all.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-01-31, 11:06 PM
If you check my sig for 'Joker Bard'... well, it was based on the Heath Ledger Joker, who is a kindred soul to Dexter, save his targets of choice. He could be easily reflavored to do the job quite nicely.

He's the ultimate social chameleon, being able to Take 10 on all social skills, and with a simple 3rd level spell, can even bypass Detect Lies, Compel Truth, and Zone of Truth.

Dexter is first a Diplomancer, to fool everyone else. Bard. Second, a manipulator par excellance. Again, Bard. The build is not magic-dependent, but can use magic as a tool if necessary. Dexter is willing to use any tool at hand to achieve his goals.

Soonerdj
2010-02-01, 12:59 AM
It's probably hard translating his usual method of surprise drugging them and then killing them later to D&D mechanics but it seems like a sneak attack.

Actually Dexter is an Factotum / Assassin who uses his Death Attack for paralysis.

It also gets him Deep Slumber and Hide in Plain Sight.

Ormur
2010-02-01, 01:08 AM
Actually Dexter is an Factotum / Assassin who uses his Death Attack for paralysis.

It also gets him Deep Slumber and Hide in Plain Sight.

Ah, that makes more sense.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-01, 01:33 AM
I'd go with Lawful Evil. He's killing to sate an urge. He does have a code, and a system of honor. His code is rigorously followed.

I'd stay away from a caster for Dexter, though I'd consider it for his brother (due to mind bending Dexter in the earlier seasons).

Probably a rogue with 1 assassin level. Most of his attacks rely on stealth, and surprise attacks. He makes extensive use of poisons. He is possessed of a high number of observational and investigative skills.

Among these are: Use Rope, Search, Spot, Listen, Gather Information, Bluff, Disguise, Knowledge (Florida Law), Knowledge (Anatomy), Profession (sailor), Heal, Balance, Climb, Hide, Move Silently, Open Locks, Disable Device, and Sense Motive.

That's 18 skills he's been demonstrated to be practiced in. Some, such as Disguise and profession, may be not be maxed, but others will certainly be.

NOTE: He doesn't do anything mystical or supernatural. He takes an injury based poison, and uses it to knockout victims in a surprise round via a well placed attack. There's no need for in depth paralysis and sleep magic. He works much more on psychology and misdirection than anything else, but he's entirely mundane in his application.

Reluctance
2010-02-01, 02:53 AM
Dexter lives in a nonmagical world. Play the same archetype in a magic-rich one, and I see no reason he wouldn't use magic if it were the most effective means towards his goals. Don't ignore the second word in "Dexter-like".

Don't get me wrong. Dexter is definitely more of a skillman than a fullcaster. But casting ability should not rule out a class/build.

Also, let me strongly suggest watching at least the first season of the series if you want to keep this player happy. Dexter's main shtick is going off solo to kill the *really* bad guys. This needn't screw up your campaign too much; the party as a whole will still go after the necromancer-lord threatening the kingdom, while Dexter "cleans up" less grandiose but still incredibly evil evils. If your campaign doesn't have a lot of space for personal sidequests, be warned that you'll have the usual issues when somebody wants to play a protagonist in an ensemble setting.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-01, 03:05 AM
Dexter lives in a nonmagical world. Play the same archetype in a magic-rich one, and I see no reason he wouldn't use magic if it were the most effective means towards his goals. Don't ignore the second word in "Dexter-like".

Don't get me wrong. Dexter is definitely more of a skillman than a fullcaster. But casting ability should not rule out a class/build.

Also, let me strongly suggest watching at least the first season of the series if you want to keep this player happy. Dexter's main shtick is going off solo to kill the *really* bad guys. This needn't screw up your campaign too much; the party as a whole will still go after the necromancer-lord threatening the kingdom, while Dexter "cleans up" less grandiose but still incredibly evil evils. If your campaign doesn't have a lot of space for personal sidequests, be warned that you'll have the usual issues when somebody wants to play a protagonist in an ensemble setting.

If we're trying to be Dexterish, you don't get more Dexterish than rogue skills and poison use. I'm not saying that he couldn't have magic skills. Only that there is nothing in the series to suggest that he would.

There's a compelling case for his brother, due to the (Spoiler alert):massive room of blood scene, and how it severely emotionally messed with Dexter That could be justified quite easily through Suggestion and other mind-spells.

Dexter, however? I wouldn't let magic take any shine away from how incredibly skillful and talented he is.

Seth1221
2010-02-01, 03:06 AM
Dexter lives in a nonmagical world. Play the same archetype in a magic-rich one, and I see no reason he wouldn't use magic if it were the most effective means towards his goals. Don't ignore the second word in "Dexter-like".

Don't get me wrong. Dexter is definitely more of a skillman than a fullcaster. But casting ability should not rule out a class/build.

Also, let me strongly suggest watching at least the first season of the series if you want to keep this player happy. Dexter's main shtick is going off solo to kill the *really* bad guys. This needn't screw up your campaign too much; the party as a whole will still go after the necromancer-lord threatening the kingdom, while Dexter "cleans up" less grandiose but still incredibly evil evils. If your campaign doesn't have a lot of space for personal sidequests, be warned that you'll have the usual issues when somebody wants to play a protagonist in an ensemble setting.

I'm planning a semi-sandbox so personal side-quests are most welcome:smallwink:
Yeah I'll probably watch at least few episodes since this Dexter guy sounds like someone I'd like to know...:smallamused:
Magic is fine but my guts tell me that my friend will rather play a skill monkey with UMD than a spellcaster.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-01, 03:12 AM
I'm planning a semi-sandbox so personal side-quests are most welcome:smallwink:
Yeah I'll probably watch at least few episodes since this Dexter guy sounds like someone I'd like to know...:smallamused:
Magic is fine but my guts tell me that my friend will rather play a skill monkey with UMD than a spellcaster.

Suffice it to say, Dexter is a very cerebral character.

The typical M.O. is:
*Get tip on bad guy, from various sources (he does work in a cop station)
*Research bad guy, get information on him.
*Observe bad guy, determine his patterns.
*Break in to bad guy's places, get evidence of his guilt (the guilty must be a murderer).
*Ambush bad guy, using misdirection, hiding, or distraction. Inject a knockout toxin via syringe.
*Remove victim to pre-prepared secluded location. Bind victim.
*Wait for victim to wake up, talk to victim, typically about his/her crimes.
*kill victim. chop and dispose of bodies. Leave no evidence.

VladtheLad
2010-02-01, 06:56 AM
And when he dies he could always become a mohrg.

His tongue would function in the same way as the syringe.

Kiero
2010-02-01, 07:15 AM
Dexter kills criminals, beause he feels the need to kill, and targets people that people wont minde dead

Dexter of the TV series also thinks he's doing a public service.

Eldan
2010-02-01, 07:20 AM
I agree on Factotum or Assassin. Furthermore, I'd give him the following feats:

Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple (alternatively, a level of monk), Investigate (from Eberron. It's his job,after all.)

BobVosh
2010-02-01, 08:51 AM
Dexter of the TV series also thinks he's doing a public service.

He pretends to, but knows he doesn't really. Especially after season 2.

Anyway for alignment I would give him TN simply because he is quite crazy. A signature of his is that he has to pretend to even have emotions. If you ignore that, NE is probably him. He is very lawful in that he obeys the code, etc, but he is also chaotic in that he will break it if he needs to. Yes, technically he is always obeying it as "don't get caught" is the first rule. However that is really just common sense.

Anyway he is probably Rogue, assassin. Uses the spells for the +2 DC on poisons, HiPS, and a fairly good stealth. Average to slightly above average physical stats, all his mental stats are high. Wisdom as he has fairly good common sense, and enough willpower to break his hand to avoid being found at a crime scene. Int is obvious, he needs the skills. Cha is great for all the BSing he needs to do. Although not diplomacy, he is all bluff.

I have only watched the series, so I don't know how well this follows the books. Although thanks for reminding me, I'm going to see if it is on the kindle ^^

Mastikator
2010-02-01, 09:13 AM
He starts out as a Ranger (Urban Variant (Unearthed Arcana)) with favored enemy humans, and then goes into assassin class.
Why urban ranger and not factotum or rogue? Because of tracking and favored enemy. Although urban tracking could simply be a feat.

He's heavily focused into sneaking and social skills, as well as human autonomy and forensic science. I don't want to stat him out.

He displays heavy characteristics of both lawfulness and chaos, so he's neutral. He also displays far more evil characteristics than good, so he's evil. I'd say he starts out incredibly evil and lawful at the beginning of the series, but moves towards neutral evil leaning true neutral at the very end.


Thats my take.

Seth1221
2010-02-02, 02:43 AM
He starts out as a Ranger (Urban Variant (Unearthed Arcana)) with favored enemy humans, and then goes into assassin class.
Why urban ranger and not factotum or rogue? Because of tracking and favored enemy. Although urban tracking could simply be a feat.

He's heavily focused into sneaking and social skills, as well as human autonomy and forensic science. I don't want to stat him out.

He displays heavy characteristics of both lawfulness and chaos, so he's neutral. He also displays far more evil characteristics than good, so he's evil. I'd say he starts out incredibly evil and lawful at the beginning of the series, but moves towards neutral evil leaning true neutral at the very end.


Thats my take.

Ranger is an interesting thought. The game will be mostly in a city so urban variant is a good idea. Yeah track the bad guys:smallbiggrin: and ruthlessly slaughter them...
Does urban variant use survival for tracking?

Eldan
2010-02-02, 02:54 AM
That actually uses Gather Information, which fits quite well with a policeman.

Also: low charisma, but decent ranks in social skills.

Seth1221
2010-02-02, 02:56 AM
That actually uses Gather Information, which fits quite well with a policeman.

Also: low charisma, but decent ranks in social skills.

Ah I thought so. Unfortunately I don't have unearthed arcana - but I can always prepare something similar.

Ravens_cry
2010-02-02, 03:24 AM
Ah I thought so. Unfortunately I don't have unearthed arcana - but I can always prepare something similar.
Everyone has Unearthed Arcana, it's part of the SRD. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm)

Seth1221
2010-02-02, 03:33 AM
Oh, cool I didn't realize that. Thanks!

Ravens_cry
2010-02-02, 03:43 AM
*bows* Glad to be of service.:smallsmile:

pasko77
2010-02-02, 05:08 AM
Meh, he works for the police. He kills bad guys. The average D&D paladin, if you ask me :smalltongue:

Splendor
2010-02-02, 05:10 AM
I'm with Lawful he definably has a "Code of honor". And siding with Evil for the other half of his alignment. Now HE doesn't think he's evil, but when everyone else thinks your evil, chances are your evil. And as the show progresses he's trying real hard to be neutral, but he LIKES killing people, he HAS TO kill people and that makes him evil.

As for classes, I agree with Urban Ranger. He stalks his victims, tracking them around town, does research about their habits. He's a ranger. I wouldn't give him any other levels... Maybe Master Inquisitive from Eberron as a prestige class.

I would modify the urban ranger even further. Remove spellcasting, animal companion (would actually keep the 1/2 animal empathy for a primal kinda thing), give him monk unarmed damage/AC/Speed as a monk of 1/2 his ranger level, and allow him to use the Craft (Alchemy) even though he's not a spellcaster. (for like alchemical sleep gas, and duct tape)