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bartman
2010-01-31, 08:12 PM
Ok, first off, some background.

My DM is running a campaign where we are all forced to be level 1 aristocrats. (I know, I know)... Anywho, we started playing, and managed to level to level 3 in one night. He told us this at the end, so now I can start to build my character how I want. During character creation, he had us roll 4d8 dropping lowest. Once we had 2 sets rolled and one set chosen (not assigned), he had us pass the numbers to our right. we then assigned our new numbers to abilities, and chose a race. We then passed to the right again, and that is what we were stuck with. His thinking was that you do not get to choose who you are born to or how you are physically and mentally. I do not mind this, it makes things a bit interesting. The stats I got are STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 18, WIS 16(or 17), CHA 20. I would like to appeal to the collective knowledge of the Playground to help me build a character, or at least start one. Just the first 2 levels please, I can take it from there. Some points to note, I dislike casters in general, but will have somewhat of an open mind. I enjoy playing skirmish based characters, and also really enjoy the warlock flavour. I do not want to be a wizard or sorcerer, as I absolutely suck at playing that type of character. Any books would be allowed, but please no Psionics.

Thank you, and go nuts ;)

-EDIT

The aristocrat class is free, and does not count towards multiclass XP penalties

Lyth
2010-01-31, 08:19 PM
Cleric, maybe? It's been awhile since I've played any of the earlier editions, but that looks like a decent set-up for a cleric to me.

CTLC
2010-01-31, 08:25 PM
play an archer cleric, take zen archery, and be the face of the party with cho 20 cha.

JeminiZero
2010-01-31, 08:29 PM
High mental stats absolutely scream "Full Caster" to me. That in addition to the relatively poor physical stats means that you are not going to blaying any sort of melee. But since you don't want full casters...

How about a Limited Caster? The kind with known fixed spell list, so you don't have to wrack your mind figuring out what spells to pick. The Int would work with a Beguiler, and you would double as a great skill monkey. That Cha would go nicely with a Dread Necromancer. Even if you don't like casting full time, Dread Necro you the option of sitting back and letting your horde of undead minions pound your enemies into the dust. There is also Warmage, but that is generally considered sub-optimal.

If that doesn't work for you, we go down to the semi-casters. Warlocks, Dragonfire Adepts, Binders, Incarnum users and the like.

bartman
2010-01-31, 08:37 PM
I hav never played a cleric, so may consider that. I have tried playing a sorcerer with a limited spell list before, actually a sorcerer/warlock/eldritch theurge, and it was a disaster. I looked at the dread necromancer before, and it looked pretty interesting. A friend of mine is playing one in another campaign we have going, so I my talk to him about it and see what he thinks.

Thank you for the help, and keep the ideas coming :)

Soranar
2010-01-31, 08:41 PM
20 CHA just has to be used for something

A caster would be nerfed from having 1 level of aristocrat but if you take practiced spellcaster eventually you'd make up for it somewhat.

A bard would be a pretty strong choice. You would get very high DCs from charisma 20, strength shouldn't be that important and your high Int could be used with knowledge devotion with a dip in cleric. Get that magic item that lets you add your Cha to damage and you're set.

If you're an aristocrat you should have money at least.

CTLC
2010-01-31, 08:51 PM
actually i think id go with bard 20, and optimize away, it would be amazing with those stats, still take zen archery and a bow though, and enjoy the skill points

Glimbur
2010-01-31, 08:56 PM
your high Int could be used with knowledge devotion with a dip in cleric.

You don't have to take cleric to get a Devotion feat, you can just take it via a feat. I'm seconding Bard, they can be lots of fun and 20 Cha wants to be used.

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 09:11 PM
Bard isn't honestly a bad idea; you have exactly what a Bard wants. That is, everything :smalltongue: But seriously, go Bard, pimp out your Cha, pick up Arcane Disciple somewhere along the line (no reason to throw that wonderful Wis of yours away and getting access to a domainful of spells kicks major bottoms for Bard; pick something like War if you wanna fight to get Divine Power), maybe take two levels of Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), or a level of Monk with Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC, maybe wear Monk's Belt for Wis to AC too, enter Sublime Chord on 11 and Virtuoso thereafter (taking the first Virtuoso-level on 10 so as not to lose any Sublime Chord spellcasting).

This makes you ridiculously Charisma-focused; hell, you could consider Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battle Dancing for the ability to melee with your Cha too. This combined with Inspire Courage suddenly makes you somewhat decent there.


Oh, and Aristocrat fits a Bard nicely (though of course, all you get from those levels is the money and proficiencies). You'll make a nice Do-It-All anyways; your Lore is insane with your points not to mention your skills (you can cover all the important mental skills thanks to your through-the-roof stats), you'll have casting, you'll have moderate melee capability, etc.

But yeah, Bard focusing on either casting or martial fighting seems like just the thing. Hell, you could even pick up level or two of Sublime Chord along the way to get you Turn Undead with which to fuel stuff like Divine Might.


Eh, you have infinite options. Gotta know a bit more what you want; it's your character, your choice.

Soranar
2010-01-31, 09:17 PM
if you want Cha to AC just take a level of Battledancer (high BAB) improved unarmed strike and chaotic alignment which works better with bard

AirGuitarGod32
2010-01-31, 09:24 PM
I almost suggest a Paladin1/Sorcerer 9/Full Casting PrC 10, but I also second a Bard build. Mostly Sublime Chord with a glass whip and Snowflake Wardance

CTLC
2010-01-31, 09:26 PM
Bard isn't honestly a bad idea; you have exactly what a Bard wants. That is, everything :smalltongue: But seriously, go Bard, pimp out your Cha, pick up Arcane Disciple somewhere along the line (no reason to throw that wonderful Wis of yours away and getting access to a domainful of spells kicks major bottoms for Bard; pick something like War if you wanna fight to get Divine Power), maybe take two levels of Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a), or a level of Monk with Ascetic Mage for Cha to AC, maybe wear Monk's Belt for Wis to AC too, enter Sublime Chord on 11 and Virtuoso thereafter (taking the first Virtuoso-level on 10 so as not to lose any Sublime Chord spellcasting).

This makes you ridiculously Charisma-focused; hell, you could consider Snowflake Wardance and Slippers of Battle Dancing for the ability to melee with your Cha too. This combined with Inspire Courage suddenly makes you somewhat decent there.


Oh, and Aristocrat fits a Bard nicely (though of course, all you get from those levels is the money and proficiencies). You'll make a nice Do-It-All anyways; your Lore is insane with your points not to mention your skills (you can cover all the important mental skills thanks to your through-the-roof stats), you'll have casting, you'll have moderate melee capability, etc.

But yeah, Bard focusing on either casting or martial fighting seems like just the thing. Hell, you could even pick up level or two of Sublime Chord along the way to get you Turn Undead with which to fuel stuff like Divine Might.


Eh, you have infinite options. Gotta know a bit more what you want; it's your character, your choice.

I have to agree, bard with arcane disciple at the very least, the dips could really pump AC, and the PRc around lvl 10. You do have insane mental stats

Soranar
2010-01-31, 09:49 PM
divine might would require str 13, otherwise I would have mentioned it

Jarrick
2010-01-31, 09:51 PM
Stats like that and not a full caster!? ::Has Heart attack:: *thud* :smalltongue:

Skillmonkey urban ranger? Party face and tracker, archery with "Zen Archery" for combat maybe?

Dread necromancer is fun. Bard might be good with the right PrC, sublime chord maybe. Artificer...
..
..
You know what? Never mind my other 3 sugesstions. Artificer FTW.

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 09:55 PM
divine might would require str 13, otherwise I would have mentioned it

That's...a passing problem at most. +4 item should eventually be acquirable around the same time the feat becomes a consideration.

Soranar
2010-01-31, 10:01 PM
Since when can you qualify for a feat without the stats? Unless you're a monk or a ranger I don't think that's possible.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-01-31, 10:08 PM
If you have a magic item that gives you the requisite stats, you can select and use the feat for as long as you have the item.

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 10:09 PM
Since when can you qualify for a feat without the stats? Unless you're a monk or a ranger I don't think that's possible.

There's...no rule requiring the stats to be inherent. CWar suggests (though in the context of PrCs) that as long as you meet the prerequisites at the point of acquisition, you may pick whatever but lose the ability to use it if you ever lose the prerequisites (also makes e.g. stat damage quite severe for characters with feats).

Btw, the Monk-level would also get PA without having to meet the prerequisites...which would get one obstacle out of the way for picking Divine Might. As long as the alignment isn't a problem (honestly, phuck alignment; alignment shift and write it into the story if it's really necessary), Ari 1/Monk 1/Bard 7/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso+Sacred Exorcist seems like just the thing.

Soranar
2010-01-31, 10:10 PM
Why have rules if you're just going to handwave them?

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 10:12 PM
Why have rules if you're just going to handwave them?

Extrapolate. I do not comprehend the question.

Soranar
2010-01-31, 10:14 PM
Stat requirements for feats is quite logical, and so are alignment restrictions. To simply choose to ignore them defeats the purpose of optimization. The point is to help making a build respecting the rules of the game.

bartman
2010-01-31, 10:17 PM
Alright, sounds like Bard is the way to go

This could get interesting, never tried the Bard route before, but hey, why not

actually makes me wish this campaign would be played more than once in a blue moon (DM lives a few hours away and only comes down sporadically)

Thank you all for the great advice

Eldariel
2010-01-31, 10:20 PM
Stat requirements for feats is quite logical, and so are alignment restrictions. To simply choose to ignore them defeats the purpose of optimization. The point is to help making a build respecting the rules of the game.

Alignment restrictions are...well, they tend to be fluff, which tends to be mutable. Why does Monk have to be Lawful beyond the fluff? Why does Bard have to be non-Lawful, period? Well, there are some fluff justifications, but more or less, said rules are completely unnecessary. Working with unnecessary rules tends to be...less than productive. Same goes for stuff like Favored Classes and other similar bullcrap that doesn't really accomplish anything positive.


Now, stat requirements are just fine and are there for a reason, but nobody's ignoring them. Fact is that by the rules you can qualify for said requirements by having equipment that allows you to meet the standards and that you lose said abilities if you at any point stop meeting the requirements. They mostly just present the amount of effort non-standard builds wanting the effect have to put towards acquiring said ability, and some kind of a standard of what kinds of stats you should expect from a character focused on something; he needs at least 13 to pick up relevant feats.

Note that having item-based qualifications doesn't make the prerequisites irrelevant; it means you have to invest in an item you wouldn't need otherwise and that you lose the abilities if you lose said item. Also, it means you can't acquire said ability until you can acquire the item, which tends to be quite late. Overall, I don't really see the point of your objection here.

Kylarra
2010-01-31, 10:27 PM
If it really matters that much, take Chaos Monk.

Dimers
2010-02-01, 11:42 AM
Alright, sounds like Bard is the way to go

This could get interesting, never tried the Bard route before, but hey, why not

actually makes me wish this campaign would be played more than once in a blue moon (DM lives a few hours away and only comes down sporadically)

Thank you all for the great advice

Boy, I don't log in for a day and a half, and everything bypasses me! Sheesh. :smallamused: Although bard certainly makes sense in terms of your stats, I'd like to put forward another suggestion -- Complete Divine's "spirit shaman" class. The class mixes Cha and Wis for its spellcasting requirements and has extra abilities that are Cha-based. An aristocrat/spirit shaman has an interesting flavor: calling on the spirits of your ancestors, a proud heritage. You could be the one person trained as a spirit-speaker for your generation.

I personally see no problem with playing 100% warlock from here on out. They make perfectly acceptable skirmishers and are based more on Cha than anything else, so that seems to fit fine with both your stats and your desires.

You might want to ask a separate question of the Playground: what low-level feats make good use of Charisma? Me, I like Kiai, and it goes so nicely with the baleful utterance invocation.

Thurbane
2010-02-01, 09:28 PM
Aristocrat/Sorcerer/Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion?

bartman
2010-02-01, 09:43 PM
Hmm, I looked at Spirit Shaman, and it does not seem like something that would interest me, but thank you for the suggestion. Kiai might be something to look into, might be useful with a bard.