OOTS #702 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Dumbledore lives]

Awesome comic, it looks like Redcloak finally accomplished his dream.

[delguidance]

What's the next verse of the anthem?

[littlequietguy]

Love the title! Very memorable. Love the small text. Will love even more when someone with better eyes transcribes it.

[CoffeeIncluded]

So...I guess Team Peregrine crashed and burned?

Doh. Stupid me, he's talking about V.

I feel happy for the goblins, yet terrified at the same time.

Aaww at the little kid hobgoblin.

[Mystic Muse]

....................

I only have three words Giant.

YOU ARE AWESOME!:biggrin:

I love the spoofing of the star spangled banner and the state mottoes and such.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Finally! This really has been just what I was waiting for. I just can not believe it! The characters are acting just as they should, and it is truly, awesomely running as it should. Something in the back of my mind are the predictions spouted by the Oracle. I assume they'll all come true, but have any at all come true already? I guess we will have to wait and see.

Personally, I'm kind of thinking/wondering what happened to the Linear Guild, and who can forget Helga? (I do think tha was 'er name; Dwarf speak is good) I get the feeling they will finally be back in the game. This is enough, but I want even more!

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Thanks for the comic, Rich!


MISTAKE NOTICE: Hey, the ropes in panel 2, row 3, are sticking up into the panel above!

[MoriHikari]

intresting to say the least...cant wait for the next one!

[ArlEammon]

Love that national motto!

[Calimehter]

I wonder what Xykon thinks of all this . . .

[The Giant]

MISTAKE NOTICE: Hey, the ropes in panel 2, row 3, are sticking up into the panel above!

Yeah, the textbooks in the second-to-last panel are doing something weird, too. I'll fix these but it will take a bit.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I wonder what Xykon thinks of all this . . .

:xykon: **** this ****, I want my pet god-killing abomination!

[Vire]

yeah, this is only gonna end in gobbo blood and tears...

{edit} since someone asked for it: the text from the text

In the unholy eyes of the Dark One, no land is more blessed and fortunate than the nation of Gobbotopia. Founded in the late 1184 by the high priest of the Dark One, the nation is largely regarded as being the most powerful, influential, and generally interesting country ever.
While the majority of Gobbotopia's population is composed of the three goblinoid races (goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, with the latter forming 93% of it's permanent inhabitants), the nation's borders are open to all disenfranchised humanoids and thus supports growing comunities of orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-


thanks to the people that pointed out "flinds" since i couldn't read it:smallbiggrin:

[Ron Miel]

Three generations in twenty years, do goblins really live that fast?

[jsager1015]

It's actually not at all clear whether he's talking about V or Team Peregrine... I'm actually inclined to believe the latter, given that he called it an "elven insurgents" rather than "that one elf who attacked".

[Xyk]

The textbooks are transparent and it bugs me. That said, I really like this turn in the comic's direction. New goblin nations are awesome.

[Rumda]

The flag is very appropriate, red background for the red cloak green star for the standard goblins orange for the hobos, and brown for the bugbears, with the purple of the dark one over them all

[Gift Jeraff]

Nice. I'm kinda hoping Team Peregrine and the Resistance fail miserably. >_>

Textbook says bugbears also live in Gobbotopia and that various monster races (including giants, monstrous humanoids, and half- stuff) are welcome, which kinda throws out the idea that Redcloak only cares about goblinoids. (Although I can't help but think that the Plan does not have a place for creatures like chromatic dragons, who get the same treatment...)

EDIT: To the above, nice catch. But what about blues (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) and aquatic goblinoids?! (Well, I suppose the latter could fall under green...)

[Querzis]

The flag is very appropriate, red background for the red cloak green star for the standard goblins orange for the hobos, and brown for the bugbears, with the purple of the dark one over them all

Cool, I didnt actually get it before you explained it. Thats just awesome.

[The Giant]

Art problems should now be fixed.

[ThePhantasm]

Didn't see that coming. Redcloak just made a ballsy move methinks... Xykon wants to leave Azure City, but Redcloak is laying down the foundations for a goblin nation... sounds like trouble.

Unless they weren't intending to bring the Goblin Army with them? Surely they were...

Goes right with my theory that it will take some serious action from Team Peregrine to get the baddies to leave now!

EDIT: Check out the little hobgoblin kid! Is this the first hobgoblin child we've seen in the comic?

[Aaron]

:smalleek:...ooooooo boy...This looks bad for the Azure city survivors.

[Green&Submarine]

I wonder how many of the seventeen nations are short-lived desert fringe kingdoms? Great comic, love to see more of the world fleshed out!

Also, I'm glad that Gobbotopia is accepting Xvarts into its midst! :smallbiggrin:

[spectralphoenix]

Love the title! Very memorable. Love the small text. Will love even more when someone with better eyes transcribes it.

"In the unholy eyes of the Dark One, no land is more blessed and fortunate than the nation of Gobbotopia. Founded in late 1184 by the high priest of the Dark One, the nation is largely regarded as being the most powerful, influential, and generally interesting country ever.

While the majority of Gobbotopia's population is composed of the three goblinoid races (goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, with the latter forming 93% of its permanent inhabitants,) the nation's borders are open to all disenfranchised humanoids and thus supports growing minorities of orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds,) trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, ogres, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-"

Edit: ninja'd!

Were sligs, xvarts, and flinds (at least as a separate MM entry) ever in 3.x? Those might be some escapees from the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[slayerx]

Unless they weren't intending to bring the Goblin Army with them? Surely they were...
no they were planning on teleporting and i don't think Xykon can mass teleport a whole army... their gonna leave most of the hobgoblins behind


I wonder what Xykon thinks of all this . . .
:xykon: "Get off your lazy **** and get back to work!"
or some variation of that... ya Xykon out to conquer the world, not gonna care about one little goblin nation

[HUMVEE Driver]

Can't say I like the changing of our National Anthem's lyrics to suit some goblins...

And I know it's unintentional, but I'm seeing the comparison of the elves to terrorists and the American military to an occupation force.

Just bad timing, I guess. And I know it's just a comic, but some things hit harder to home than others.

[Felyndiira]

Awesome. It's somewhat amusing that Cliffport would support human slavery, though.

[Davedude]

Can't wait to see where this goes

[Turkish Delight]

As a long-time follower of China-related issues, I bust out laughing at the line about Cliffport 'influencing Gobbotopia's stance on human slavery through economic engagement.'

Well done, I say.

[ThePhantasm]

Can't say I like the changing of our National Anthem's lyrics to suit some goblins...

And I know it's unintentional, but I'm seeing the comparison of the elves to terrorists and the American military to an occupation force.

Just bad timing, I guess. And I know it's just a comic, but some things hit harder to home than others.

I think its just a pun on the anthem for joke purposes, not a satire of the American military or of the War in Iraq.

[Shatteredtower]

Thanks for the text, Vire.

[spectralphoenix]

Awesome. It's somewhat amusing that Cliffport would support human slavery, though.

I don't think they are - Cliffport is trying to change Gobbotopia's position on it.

[Toper]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".

Doesn't seem like the Azurites are going to get their city back, huh... anyway, I really like this development. Redcloak is really taking on an interesting set of roles.

[HUMVEE Driver]

I think its just a pun on the anthem for joke purposes, not a satire of the American military or of the War in Iraq.

I hear you. No harm, no foul.

[Rumda]

blues (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html) and aquatic goblinoids?! (Well, I suppose the latter could fall under green...)
well if you start including all goblinoid minorities then it will start looking more like a star-scape than any reasonable flag

Awesome. It's somewhat amusing that Cliffport would support human slavery, though.
give someone enough money or chances to earn lots of money and they'll support any thing

[Ron Miel]

It's actually not at all clear whether he's talking about V or Team Peregrine... I'm actually inclined to believe the latter, given that he called it an "elven insurgents" rather than "that one elf who attacked".


Yes, but he talked about a "very secret project" that resulted from the attack, obviously he's talking about searching the sewers.

[SPoD]

I don't think they are - Cliffport is trying to changes Gobbotopia's position on it.

Are they? Or are they deciding they can live with a country keeping human slaves if it means markets to which their rival doesn't have access? I think the latter, which is the joke. "Influencing through economic engagement" is a code phrase for "Learning to live with it if it makes them a few million gold pieces."

[Katana_Geldar]

Had to zoom in to see that the brown star represents bugbears.

I do like Redcloaks message about giving rights to the disenfranchised non-PC races.

[DnDgeek13]

love the country motto.

[itaibn]

I don't think this is going to last. I always thought Redcloak's story was meant to be a tragedy, and the goblin nation Redcloak sacrificed so much to create getting destroyed seems completely appropriate.

[Corian]

The anthem does sound like the american anthem; but for the flag, you may better think of other red flags with stars. Also, the jab at "influence slavery with commerce" reminds me very much of the old debate over whether the US should do commerce with China. Not taking positions here, just trying to identify the allusions. Hope that much is permitted.

[ScottishDragon]

Awww,look at the kute goblin kiddie!Finally!Someone recognizes the importance of red rover!

[RMS Oceanic]

I shall now transcribe the textbook for those who can't read it.

Gobbotopia
National Bird: Turkey Vulture
National Flower: Yellow Musk Creeper
National Sport: Red Rover
National Motto: "Screw you, suckers, it's OUR turn now!"

In the Unholy eyes of the Dark One, no land is more blessed and fortunate than the nation of Gobbotopia. Founded in late 1184 by the High Priest of the Dark One, the nation is largely regarded as being the most powerful, influential and generally interesting country ever.

While the majority of Gobbotopia's population is composed of the three gobloid races (goblins, bugbears and hobgoblins, with the latter comprising 93% of its permanent habitants), the nation's borders are open to all disenfranchised humanoids and thus supports growing minorities of orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamiae, hill giants, ???, yakfolk, ettercaps?, half-orcs, half-...

National Anthem
O, say can you see
in the darkness of night
Who so proudly we killed
at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose blue shirts and bright swords
through the perilous fight
O'er the parapets we saw
and to whom we gave a reaming

Truly a glorious moment for noncore races, and yet I can't help but feel Xykon is going to ruin it.

[Turkish Delight]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".

Doesn't seem like the Azurites are going to get their city back, huh... anyway, I really like this development. Redcloak is really taking on an interesting set of roles.

Seemingly every kingdom and city on this planet has a name which is either a joke (Nowhere, Somewhere) or just a blatant reference to it's most obvious feature (Tyrinaria, Azure City). The awful, ass-pull names seem to be a running gag.

[Katana_Geldar]

Cliffport's going to be in a losing position if it tries to influence the goblins away from slavery, goods produced by slave labour (though arguably poorer in quality) are usually cheaper than by free workers. It's one of the reasons that funny little war started 140 years ago..

[hajo]

Redcloak just made a ballsy move methinks... Xykon wants to leave Azure City, but Redcloak is laying down the foundations for a goblin nation... sounds like trouble.

Sounds more Redcloak wants to get the goblins settled and organized when he leaves with Xykon.

[Katana_Geldar]

Hang on...one year since the occupation? Does that mean what I think it does about a certain little halfling?

[SPoD]

Hang on...one year since the occupation? Does that mean what I think it does about a certain little halfling?

Yes, but it's old news. Roy said at the end of the last story arc that Belkar only has seven weeks until the end of the year. Since they spent a week searching the desert, we're now at six weeks.

[MReav]

Truly a glorious moment for noncore races, and yet I can't help but feel Xykon is going to ruin it.

Feel? I pretty much expect it.

I'm thinking a Meteor Swarm at the crowd, the animation of their corpses, and Xykon flat out ordering them to haul ass back to work or he's going to reanimate the entire population. And Redcloak is going to cow before him and his human lackey, neutering him in front of the assembled population.

[ref]

Awesome. Now I want to know the rest of the lyrics of the anthem!

[Arcane_Secrets]

Were sligs, xvarts, and flinds (at least as a separate MM entry) ever in 3.x? Those might be some escapees from the Dungeon of Dorukan.

I don't know about the sligs or xvarts (in fact, I've never heard of the sligs before), but flinds got a rebuild in 3.5 MMIII.

[RMS Oceanic]

Feel? I pretty much expect it.

I'm thinking a Meteor Swarm at the crowd, the animation of their corpses, and Xykon flat out ordering them to haul ass back to work or he's going to reanimate the entire population. And Redcloak is going to cow before him and his human lackey, neutering him in front of the assembled population.

I wasn't thinking of something so blase.

More along the lines of the Phylactery being located and Xykon dragging Redcloak out of Azure Ci Gobbotopia at what is an important stage in its development, and not giving him the opportunity to properly sort out who's in charge while he's gone, leaving them vulnerable to the resistance.

[Katana_Geldar]

Add to that if there was another goblin (Jirix for example) who is more respected by the goblin people as he is actualy around helping them rather than on crazy schemes with Xykon and you have a nice little conspiracy here.

[Conuly]

Awesome. Now I want to know the rest of the lyrics of the anthem!

Why? Nobody ever sings the second verse of an anthem anyway, they just mumble.

It's interesting that this is what Redcloak has been doing with his time. If he could redirect his energies into this, would he give up his OTHER plan?

[Yendor]

Yes, but it's old news. Roy said at the end of the last story arc that Belkar only has seven weeks until the end of the year. Since they spent a week searching the desert, we're now at six weeks.

It doesn't add up. The battle was a week into the Southern new year, but that was at least two months after the Northern new year. By the Northern calendar, it must be at least February. And it must be more than a week since the Order left the Azurites, since they obviously spent time getting to Girard's decoy.

[SPoD]

Add to that if there was another goblin (Jirix for example) who is more respected by the goblin people as he is actualy around helping them rather than on crazy schemes with Xykon and you have a nice little conspiracy here.

See, now, I assume that if Redcloak is setting up a nation with laws and such, a clear line of succession will be part of those laws. I think we'll see Jirix named Vice Supreme Leader, and take over when Redcloak leaves. They wouldn't leave it up to chance.

[Ormur]

the **** after gnolls is 'cuz i couldn't make out the word, it was too pixelated when i blew it up for me to read. :p

I think it's Flinds.


As a long-time follower of China-related issues, I bust out laughing at the line about Cliffport 'influencing Gobbotopia's stance on human slavery through economic engagement.

Yes that caught my eye too. I think this strip had one of the heavies references to geopolitics to date, I like it.

[kakita]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".

Doesn't seem like the Azurites are going to get their city back, huh... anyway, I really like this development. Redcloak is really taking on an interesting set of roles.

They wanted to call it green-land but the hobgoblins would've gotten angry. ;)

[SaintRidley]

yeah, this is only gonna end in gobbo blood and tears...

{edit} since someone asked for it: the text from the text

In the unholy eyes of the Dark One, no land is more blessed and fortunate than the nation of Gobbotopia. Founded in the late 1184 by the high priest of the Dark One, the nation is largely regarded as being the most powerful, influential, and generally interesting country ever.
While the majority of Gobbotopia's population is composed of the three goblinoid races (goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, with the latter forming 93% of it's permanent inhabitants), the nation's borders are open to all disenfranchised humanoids and thus supports growing comunities of orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including ****), trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-


the **** after gnolls is 'cuz i couldn't make out the word, it was too pixelated when i blew it up for me to read. :p

Omur's right, it's flinds.

[Haggis]

National sport Red rover.

I don't know why but I love this little detail.

[SPoD]

It doesn't add up. The battle was a week into the Southern new year, but that was at least two months after the Northern new year. By the Northern calendar, it must be at least February. And it must be more than a week since the Order left the Azurites, since they obviously spent time getting to Girard's decoy.

What does the Northern calendar have to do with anything? A year's time is a year's time. The only person who has said anything about the actual calendar date is the Oracle, who lives in the South.

[RMS Oceanic]

See, now, I assume that if Redcloak is setting up a nation with laws and such, a clear line of succession will be part of those laws. I think we'll see Jirix named Vice Supreme Leader, and take over when Redcloak leaves. They wouldn't leave it up to chance.

I dunno, Xykon currently thinks somewhat highly of Jirix, seeing how he managed to warn him about O-Chul. He might insist on taking Jirix with them.

Yeah, now I think about it more, Redcloak isn't an idiot, and will probably have a plan in place for when Xykon comes bursting in saying it's time to go. Of course, Xykon may give an order he doesn't anticipate...

[Katana_Geldar]

Do we even know that the calendar is the same as ours? I know it's easier to make it so, but do we?

[Wolfram]

1) I LOLed at Cliffport's attitude. Sounds kinda many states ideas on how to handle a certian non-Arab Islamic theocracy.

2) You know we're gonna have to create a coat of arms for the new nation.

[Studoku]

Awww, hobgoblin child.

[SPoD]

Do we even know that the calendar is the same as ours? I know it's easier to make it so, but do we?

Nope. There could be 14 months for all we know. But we do know that Roy has said that Belkar's time is up in seven weeks as of comic #666, and presmably Roy knows how many days are in a year.

Basically, second-guessing Rich on the timing is pointless. He's flat out told us, "Belkar has seven weeks left". That trumps any math about calendars and such.

[chef781]

Nice job, Rich!

I iz impressid!

:D

Anyone know the whole blood mangled banner?

[dogmac]

There could only be one national sport, let's face it.

[Turkish Delight]

Cliffport's going to be in a losing position if it tries to influence the goblins away from slavery, goods produced by slave labour (though arguably poorer in quality) are usually cheaper than by free workers. It's one of the reasons that funny little war started 140 years ago..

That depends on how much anachronism we're allowing into the Cliffport-Gobbotopia economic situation...and Cliffport, more than any other place we've seen, was dripping anachronism from every pore.

More than likely, Gobbotopia is soon going to be host to the Cliffport equivalent of Nike shoe factories, with Cliffport investors grateful at the massive drop in wages.

[Tyrael]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".

I'd totally live there. Not because I'm Jewish, but because that name is awesome. :smallcool:

[Katana_Geldar]

IIRC, Adam Smith said that slavery wasn't sustainable, but can't recall the details.

[SPoD]

More than likely, Gobbotopia is soon going to be host to the Cliffport equivalent of Nike shoe factories, with Cliffport investors grateful at the massive drop in wages.

Equivalent? I expect to see Azurites sewing "swoop" logos on Boots of Speed any day now.


IIRC, Adam Smith said that slavery wasn't sustainable, but can't recall the details.

Adam Smith would have a stroke if D&D economics were explained to him. Remember, to craft an item, you start with the selling price and then work backwards to figure out how hard it is to make.

[Wolfram]

Cliffport's going to be in a losing position if it tries to influence the goblins away from slavery, goods produced by slave labour (though arguably poorer in quality) are usually cheaper than by free workers. It's one of the reasons that funny little war started 140 years ago..

On a per capita basis, maybe. But there are other costs too. You have to engage in basic maintenance (feeding, clothing and providing shelter). And you have security worries- to prevent escape and sabotage. Slave labor is not labor that would provide enthusiastic impetus to economic growth, which is why the Shouth was comparitively poorer than the North, even before Uncle Billy's Arson Tour of 1864.

[Brasswatchman]

You know, despite it all - I'm really kind of happy for Redcloak. It's difficult to not see his point of view on the matter, and I hope he manages to hold onto it. (Would be nice if they could give up the whole "human slavery" thing, of course...)

That said, though, why do I have the horrible feeling that Xykon is going to do something to screw it all up? (Maybe it's just because he ALWAYS does?)

[Zxo]

I love the motto. :D At least they're not pretending...

Also, the list of humanoids who are welcome (in the small-hard-to-read-print in last panel) is impressive. It looks like RC is all for diversity, just against humans.

[Katana_Geldar]

Redcloak is not a racist, he's a speciesist.

[Zxo]

Redcloak is not a racist, he's a speciesist.

Yeah, but I thought trolls, minotaurs and such are a different species than goblins. Does D&D use the notion od species at all? "Humanoid" seems to be a much more general category.

[Woodsman]

Well, it's very nice to see Redcloak finally achieving his dream.

Now the question is: can he hold onto it?

[Katana_Geldar]

Redcloak does hate all human races equally.

[Ellen]

Twenty years to get to great-grandchildren? I know Goblins have shorter generations, but isn't that a bit quick?

But, then, I'd say they're a bit quick coming out with a history book that talks in detail about a country five minutes old . . . .

I also have a feeling this is going to come back and bite Redcloak.

Actually, while he's been making Goblinoids subject to Psycho-Xyko and getting them killed in large numbers in the process, the Azure City exiles have formed friendly relations with Orcan communities and given them a new deity.

I'm not sure how that counts in the great scheme of things, just that it seems like a more positive (if small scale) event than what Redcloak may be actually achieving.

[Conuly]

Yeah, but I thought trolls, minotaurs and such are a different species than goblins. Does D&D use the notion od species at all? "Humanoid" seems to be a much more general category.

Redcloak calls himself speciesist at one point, so presumably he does use that concept even if nobody else does.


IIRC, Adam Smith said that slavery wasn't sustainable, but can't recall the details.

Well, it's certainly not what I consider an efficient way to produce goods, but there must be a reason why it's still flourishing today, thousands of years after its inception.

Of course, once you get wedded to the idea of slave labor I imagine it's hard to consider that you could make goods just the same if you started spending your security costs on paying them instead.

[blunk]

Can't say I like the changing of our National Anthem's lyrics to suit some goblins...Perhaps it was really a repurposing of "To Anacreon in Heaven."

Speaking of which, I wonder how the Brits liked us co-opting one of their drinking songs for patriotic purposes - while we were fighting them??


And I know it's unintentional, but I'm seeing the comparison of the elves to terrorists and the American military to an occupation force.There have been occupations and insurgents (whether you call them "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" is up to you) for a very long time. Until we start seeing heavy-handed references to "daisy cutters" and "shock and awe", I think we can rest assured that Avatar this ain't.

[Maximum Zersk]

1) I LOLed at Cliffport's attitude. Sounds kinda many states ideas on how to handle a certian non-Arab Islamic theocracy.


Ooh, watch out where you say stuff like that. <.< >.>

Awsome, and LOOK AT THE WITTLE GOBLIN KIDDIE DAWWWW!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[slayerx]

That said, though, why do I have the horrible feeling that Xykon is going to do something to screw it all up? (Maybe it's just because he ALWAYS does?)

I do imagine the goblin nation to fall... and the reason is because Redcloak left to go after a bigger prize... had he just dedicated himself to the new nation he might have been able to prevent it's fall... though we know it would be hard to give up on trying for the big prize
I'm rather expecting Xykon to screw it up by demanding that the most powerful hobo's come with him to remain as part of his minion supply... this would probably include Jirix and most of the most poweful hobgoblin clerics/casters. Hell considering how the highest level people tend to be the one's in high position, Xykon may pretty much be talking about most of the hobgoblin leadership... The city will still be full of goblinoids, but they will mostly be the lowest level variety, with the poorist leaders, and relatively few clerics and sorcerers (and only low level ones to boot)... this in turn WILL make it easier for the resistance to start gaining some ground, and for the humans and elves to retake the city

[Turkish Delight]

Well, it's certainly not what I consider an efficient way to produce goods, but there must be a reason why it's still flourishing today, thousands of years after its inception.

It's probably a lousy way to run an economy, but you can make a lot of money off it in the short term. The real world examples are probably too much serious business for a web comic, though.

Brief hint: go rewatch Schindler's List, and reimagine it without the money being used to save anyone. Or go to wikipedia and read up on I.G. Farben.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'm rather expecting Xykon to screw it up by demanding that the most powerful hobo's come with him to remain as part of his minion supply... this would probably include Jirix and most of the most poweful hobgoblin clerics/casters. Hell considering how the highest level people tend to be the one's in high position, Xykon may pretty much be talking about most of the hobgoblin leadership... The city will still be full of goblinoids, but they will mostly be the lowest level variety, with the poorist leaders, and relatively few clerics and sorcerers (and only low level ones to boot)... this in turn WILL make it easier for the resistance to start gaining some ground, and for the humans and elves to retake the city

I do imagine the goblin nation to fall... and the reason is because Redcloak left to go after a bigger prize... had he just dedicated himself to the new nation he might have been able to prevent it's fall... though we know it would be hard to give up on trying for the big prize

Heh heh heh, nothing like a Spartan-style uprising. :smalltongue:

[Randalor]

Is... is it wrong of me to feel good for the goblins and fully support them in this? I mean, honestly, they were born to be the universe's chew-toy, and now they have the advantages that so many took for granted. Is it wrong to draw similarities between them and the the people who had to fight for basic rights in our own world?

[Optimystik]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".

I wasn't thrilled with the name either (especially since "Gobbo" sounds just plain pejorative, like "Guido" or something,) but I think the cheesy names for townships were intentional.

[Katana_Geldar]

Is... is it wrong of me to feel good for the goblins and fully support them in this? I mean, honestly, they were born to be the universe's chew-toy, and now they have the advantages that so many took for granted. Is it wrong to draw similarities between them and the the people who had to fight for basic rights in our own world?

No, not wrong, and Redcloak's argument does have some valid points even if his execution of it (i.e. willing to let the world be destroyed as a Plan B) is a bit insane.

[Mastikator]

I wonder how long until they start declaring war and trying to take over the world via military force. In the process enslaving humanity.

Yay?

[Behold_the_Void]

I think this is interesting for Redcloak's character. I mean, the whole point of "The Plan" was to achieve essentially what he just achieved, a place for goblins and other such races to live and have their own shot at surviving and thriving.

Which begs the question, does he need the Plan?

[Katana_Geldar]

The Dark One might say otherwise, and Redcloak IS a cleric.

[blunk]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with? That's kind of like calling Israel "Jewadise".I suppose "Jewtopia" would be too derivative... :smallfrown:

[xanaphia]

Which type of topia is it? U or dis?

Jewadise is awesome. As is Jewtopia.

[Shale]

I am Jewish and have never felt the need to visit Israel (nor would I even without the persistent threat of explosions), but I would totally move to Jewadise.

Also, if it weren't for the fact that it was founded on conquest, slaughter and slavery, the establishment of Gobbotopia would be an unmitigated Good Thing™.

[Strawberries]

Is... is it wrong of me to feel good for the goblins and fully support them in this? I mean, honestly, they were born to be the universe's chew-toy, and now they have the advantages that so many took for granted. Is it wrong to draw similarities between them and the the people who had to fight for basic rights in our own world?

I was going to post the very same thing... Is it very wrong to root a bit for the goblins? Slavery aside, the "Screw you suckers, it's OUR turn now!" kinda makes me want to cheer alongside with them....

On a more serious note, I'm impressed with Redcloak. Not that I wasn't before, but...that's some serious far-sightedness and leadership that he is showing, building a nation from nothing. A pity that he is blinded by his hate for humans and his determination to follow the plan to an end.

[triple zero]

That was awesome. I didn't get the "influence through economic engagement" reference until it was explained in the thread, but I love the expression on that hobgoblin's face as he says it.

And that little hobgoblin is so cute! Sure, most things in OotS are cute, but look at that little guy!

The "unfurl!" sound effect was a nice touch, too.

I'm guessing this speech precedes a farewell announcement. I doubt that the phylactery has been found, but it seems as if Redcloak is preparing for a transfer of power to the new leadership, so that Gobbotopia is ready when Team Evil teleports out. Xykon won't attack the hobgoblins. He's been wanting to leave the city since they won the war. Xykon wants out and he doesn't care what the goblin race does with the city.

On that note, I can't wait to see what Xykon is up to. The more strips there are where we don't see him, the more epic his return will be.

[KeiranHalcyon]

I'd have gone with "Gobtopia" myself (presuming "-topia" was required).


I don't think this is going to last. I always thought Redcloak's story was meant to be a tragedy, and the goblin nation Redcloak sacrificed so much to create getting destroyed seems completely appropriate.

Not tragic enough.

For a true tragedy, Gobbotopia needs to fall via internal strife, and Redcloak needs to live just long enough to see it, proving to him that it is in fact the goblin race that is morally bankrupt and deserving of the "ecological niche" they were created to fill, prompting him to destroy the crimson mantle and allow himself to be struck down, and condemning the Dark One to never again rise above demigod status.


Speaking of which, I wonder how the Brits liked us co-opting one of their drinking songs for patriotic purposes - while we were fighting them??

Well said.


I wasn't thrilled with the name either (especially since "Gobbo" sounds just plain pejorative, like "Guido" or something,) but I think the cheesy names for townships were intentional.

Or like "Hobo", which has been used in-comic as a pejorative for "Hobgoblin" (playing off the real-world pejorative for a homeless person).

[WhitemageofDOOM]

Well, it's certainly not what I consider an efficient way to produce goods, but there must be a reason why it's still flourishing today, thousands of years after its inception.

Modern slavery has nothing to do with economic productivity, and everything to do with the simple demand for slaves.

People want to own slaves, there is a demand, ergo the market creates a supply.


No, not wrong, and Redcloak's argument does have some valid points even if his execution of it (i.e. willing to let the world be destroyed as a Plan B) is a bit insane.

And this is where the E on there alignment sheet comes in.

[Tola]

Now, the real issue is: Will the minorities stay minorities? If Goblins start thinking 'This is our land, those other races should be below us!' or some such, then there could be trouble...

Moving away from this, a lot of monsters and monster races are very powerful, but suffer from being alone, and thus targets. A genuine monster nation, if it gets enough powerful creatures, could be very powerful indeed.

[Selene]

Nope. I still hate him. But I don't have a problem with the Gobbotopian citizens.

[ref]

On that note, I can't wait to see what Xykon is up to. The more strips there are where we don't see him, the more epic his return will be.

Imagine he's given the ritual to Tsukiko and he's gonna teleport out without Redcloak. How would Redcloak take that?

[isocum]

good comic, but i would be happier if it was a 1.5 page strip and had an big applause scene right after the flag unfurs. i remember rich saying it was very hard to pull crowd scenes, guess he thought it would be a hassle.

[The_Weirdo]

1) I LOLed at Cliffport's attitude. Sounds kinda many states ideas on how to handle a certian non-Arab Islamic theocracy.

And how the US deals with China.

[Strawberries]

Not tragic enough.

For a true tragedy, Gobbotopia needs to fall via internal strife, and Redcloak needs to live just long enough to see it, proving to him that it is in fact the goblin race that is morally bankrupt and deserving of the "ecological niche" they were created to fill, prompting him to destroy the crimson mantle and allow himself to be struck down, and condemning the Dark One to never again rise above demigod status.

:smalleek: I really, really hope you're wrong. Anyway

internal strife[...], proving to him that it is in fact the goblin race that is morally bankrupt and deserving of the "ecological niche" they were created to fill wouldn't prove any more that the internal strife that was between the Azurites proved (the assassination attempt the minute there was a bit of a power void). Goblins aren't perfect, but neither are humans.

[Conuly]

Modern slavery has nothing to do with economic productivity, and everything to do with the simple demand for slaves.

People want to own slaves, there is a demand, ergo the market creates a supply.

I don't think that's exactly true given the long list of products in the modern world that are often produced with slave labor. But let's not veer off-topic here.


Imagine he's given the ritual to Tsukiko and he's gonna teleport out without Redcloak. How would Redcloak take that?

Badly, I'm sure.

[AdInfinitum]

I believe this is the first time OotS has ever creeped me out.

Uh....kudos? :smalleek:

[JonestheSpy]

Man, this is the first time I really chafe at the restriction against discussing politics in these parts, ' cause it seems that Rich certainly is.

[Querzis]

I believe this is the first time OotS has ever creeped me out.

Xykon and his ball of insanity, Roy death, Belkar and his pissing on the corpse of his enemies or dwarf sex didnt creep you out but the goblins being finally able to create their own country creeps you out? No offense but thats kinda weird. I mean I dont even get what you think is creepy about this strip (well except maybe the name. Honestly, Gobbotopia? You have no imagination Redcloak.)

[Wolfram]

There have been occupations and insurgents (whether you call them "terrorists" or "freedom fighters" is up to you)

Or even guerrillas.

[Turkish Delight]

This comic now has me thinking of how many other Fantasy epics could have been solved easily if the participants had simply understood the value of the Free Market. Would Mordor and Gondor have ever gone to war if the Gondorians had simply gotten over that whole 'Lord of Darkness plotting from his black throne to bring all living things under his everlasting dominion' thing and eased up on their trade sanctions? Even if Mordor didn't have much to export, I'm sure there would be plenty of tourists who would like to get a closer look at Bardur-Dur or Mount Doom. Would be awesome for the local economy; even Sauron would have to understand that.

[Shademan]

I am Jewish and have never felt the need to visit Israel (nor would I even without the persistent threat of explosions), but I would totally move to Jewadise.

Also, if it weren't for the fact that it was founded on conquest, slaughter and slavery, the establishment of Gobbotopia would be an unmitigated Good Thing™.

jewadise sounds much more relaxed...
"Come to JEWADISE! where we jew around all day NOT blowing each other up! have some kosher milkshake and chill on the beach or hit the streets. You CAN dance if you want to, you can leave your friends behind... 'cus your friends dont dance and if they dont dance then they're no frend of JEWADISE!"
Yeah. that would be awesome

[slayerx]

With Recloak leaving with Xykon, the great question will come up; how well can the goblinoids govern themselves. Sure they managed to maintain themselves in the fort city where Redcloak found them, but they didn't have to deal with other nations...

All sorts of international politics will likely come to play when dealing with other nations... i mean Jirix told Redcloak that the hobgoblins were ready to rule, but it seems like he did not take into account everything that that redcloak did about maintaining the city. Redcloak laid down the foundations for them to run things, but the real question will be if they can really keep things running... especially while suffering from an on going resistance movement

[Azukar]

Gobbo. Topia. Tell me Redcloak is not serious.

[derfenrirwolv]

Victors really DO write the history. They just don't usually do it so fast. I haven't seen such self aggrandizing twisting of facts in a history book since... highschool.

edit: How exactly does one make a kosher milkshake anyway?

[ShippoWildheart]

Oh god, the Blood Splattered Banner was a stroke of genius. I was imaging the goblins singing it, and I had a hearty chuckle.

[factotum]

It's actually not at all clear whether he's talking about V or Team Peregrine... I'm actually inclined to believe the latter, given that he called it an "elven insurgents" rather than "that one elf who attacked".

I believe the opposite. Saying "Elvish insurgents attacked the tower!" sounds a lot more impressive than "A single elf broke through all our defences and caused us to lose Xykon's phylactery!". I don't believe Team Peregrine would have been curbstomped off-panel, it would make introducing them in the first place completely pointless.

[B. Dandelion]

This is so... very.... dissonant, I guess, I'm kind of drawing a blank as to how to describe it. The themes that are jostling one another here aren't really meant to go together, there's this genuine pathos running underneath the irreverent sociopathy and it's kind of hard to tell how seriously any individual element should be taken, because there's no consistent universal criteria. I'm not complaining, I like that about the comic. Real life is actually more like that than most fiction, only in storybooks do all the rules always stay the same. But I'd give a lot to know what's going on in Rich's head.

With this setup, I would expect we are in large part seeing the rise before the fall, because absolutely everything in Redcloak's character and background seems to point in that direction, with bonus Kick The Dog points for the cute little hobgoblin kid whose life expectancy probably just plummeted into the mid-teens. I also worry for the safety of the women and children whose location we now know about. I'm never entirely sure, though. Really, I only post on these boards on the off-chance that I'll get something right and will be able to yell: "called it!" Okay, not really. I'm also hoping I can pick up a travel brochure to Jewadise.

[siobharek]

"And to whom we gave a reaming"

That's a classic right there... I want that anthem!

[Tordek]

Two things I love:

1. The last legible line of the anthem.

2. 'In twenty years you'll be telling your great grandchildren'. Its a nice touch, and a reminder that the Goblin lifespan is only about 30-35 years.

[Teddy]

Great Comic! :smallbiggrin:

When I first saw the flag, I thought "Gobbos, hobbos, bugbears and then blue gobbos (Boggos? Bloggos?) on top. In what way are the blues superior?" I'm still trying to find an explanation for the colors (the blue star could be Azure City Gobbotopia City)

I also find it funny that in twenty years, they will have grand-grandchildren. High reproduction rate and short life-span FTW. :smallwink:

[Katana_Geldar]

The purple star on top represents the Dark One.

[Zxo]

Is... is it wrong of me to feel good for the goblins and fully support them in this? I mean, honestly, they were born to be the universe's chew-toy, and now they have the advantages that so many took for granted. Is it wrong to draw similarities between them and the the people who had to fight for basic rights in our own world?

Not wrong at all. The deal goblins got when they were created would make any decent person angry. I couldn't help feeling a lot of sympathy for the goblins since reading SoD (maybe because of me too being a descendant of "source of loot and xp" people). You just need to remember that goblins =/= Redcloak and supporting goblins does not mean supporting RC's crazy terrorist Plan.

[UnluckyPotato]

Somewhat touching :smallredface:

[Iuris]

Regarding the future of Gobbotopia, I fully expect it to fail due to internal strife. I expect it'll come from the direction of a certain hobgblin bearing a headdress, a scepter and a shiny gold amulet.

As for the ethics of all involved: I don't take the goblin mythology from Start of darkness at face value, but expect it to be about as truthful as the textbooks we've just seen. Gobbos sound so nice and all, until you take a look at what they do when in charge, who they ally with and similar.

[Teleporker]

What does the Northern calendar have to do with anything? A year's time is a year's time. The only person who has said anything about the actual calendar date is the Oracle, who lives in the South.

I believe you are right. And even math is on your side.

Let's recap a few events regarding Belkar's potential death, and why the anniversary of the fall of Azure city means no threat for him:

1. On comic 302, Hinjo discusses the New year with Elan, who puts what would be the "Standard Celebration" months ago.

2. On Comic 329, the Oracle first talks about Belkar's death, with no specific reference in time other than "Savoring his next birthday cake". At most, and this is a stretch, Belkar's death occurs at or after his next birthday, whenever that is.

3. Azure City is occupied.

4. Roy, while in the afterlife, realizes he has been there for "103 days, 8 hours, 17 minutes and 9 seconds (plus any additional time spent in between then and the next point, anyone who recalls or counts the rest please do so).

5. Roy descends, sees the whole thing, scries on everyone, goes down, eventually meets the oracle again, then gets kicked back remembering Belkar will be dead "before the in-comic end of the year".

6. Roy comes back to the land of the living, then comes up with the "seven week" time limit (Which by the way, is the maximum amount, not necessarily the actual one).

So, even if every single event between the ones above happened on a one-day timeframe -which I doubt-, the 103 day timeframe alone provides at least that much distance between the occupation of Azure city and the seven-week timeframe of Doom. If anything, the most we could stretch from this would be that Azure city fell before the end of the year before Roy returned, and that maybe it happened a few weeks before the end of that year, seven or more *Stretch-stretch*.

So nope, no risk of mis-timing the death of Belkar at this junction. And even if there was such a "mistake", this is still Rich's world, and in the worst case scenario, what he says, goes, and that's fine by me.

:roach: This thread is supposed to be about THIS comic! Why is no one asking why I didn't get any lines?

[Teddy]

The purple star on top represents the Dark One.

Naturally... :smallannoyed:

Still, it's more blue than the "forum-purple".

[Athaniar]

More like Indigo, really. Also, I agree with the general opinon: a goblin nation is good, but Gobbotopia is an awful name. I suggest Gobtopia or the Crimson Union/City/State/Theocracy/Nation.

[Dehumanizer]

Founded in late 1184 by the high priest of the Dark One

They didn't restart the calendar? I'd have expected them to...

And, yes, this nation has "too good to be true" written all over it.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

Thank you Giant! :smallsmile:

[Vio]

if it weren't for the fact that it was founded on conquest, slaughter and slavery, the establishment of Gobbotopia would be an unmitigated Good Thing

I could think of a few more world powers there...

[Nimrod's Son]

Man, this is the first time I really chafe at the restriction against discussing politics in these parts, ' cause it seems that Rich certainly is.
All of the political concepts in this strip have been around for a very long time. How hard can it be to discuss the comic without comparing it to present-day events? :smallconfused:

[RebelRogue]

It just struck me, that Redcloak could be taking the first steps into the OD&D Dynast path to Immortality in the Sphere of Time (the sphere usually favored by clerics). He still needs an artifact that will let him travel in time. Well, I'm pretty sure it's just coincidence, anyway.

[Signmaker]

Red rover, red rover, let PC come over..

[Ron Miel]

All of the political concepts in this strip have been around for a very long time. How hard can it be to discuss the comic without comparing it to present-day events? :smallconfused:

Pretty hard, really. The use of "insurgent" is a direct reference to current events.

He could have used "terrorist" or "resistance" to make is less topical.

[warmachine]

It is odd that the crowd didn't cheer when the flag was unfurled, especially as they already like Redcloak. Becoming a permanent nation is something they really want. Perhaps they're too polite to interrupt their leader.

[Mojique]

What comes up, must come down.

Let's belkarize Gobbotopia!

[multilis]

Not wrong at all. The deal goblins got when they were created would make any decent person angry...
From *perspective* of goblins. Belkar's evil is measured in "kilo-nazi", yet from story/"struggle" told from "nazi" leader perspective might make "any decent person angry".

IMO is funny that in a sense the world of "OOTS" is the world of DnD, the "gods" created DnD with goblins as XP points, the players of DnD loved it that way at least at first and highly admire the "gods"/creators/inventors of DnD game who made goblins XP points, and yet reaction of "any decent person angry" to OOTS goblin treatment.

[Teddy]

It is odd that the crowd didn't cheer when the flag was unfurled, especially as they already like Redcloak. Becoming a permanent nation is something they really want. Perhaps they're too polite to interrupt their leader.

They probably did (a lot - after each pause), but the cheers weren't written into the comic (What sound effect suits cheers anyway?). See #701 for reference.

[Nimrod's Son]

Pretty hard, really. The use of "insurgent" is a direct reference to current events.

He could have used "terrorist" or "resistance" to make is less topical.
And yet the Wikipedia entry for "Insurgency" uses as its main image a photo of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising of 1943. "Insurgent", "terrorist" and "resistance" are all just words with no specific time-frame attached to them, and there is no reason whatsoever to need to mention real-life events of ANY time period when discussing this strip.

Unless the entire POINT of your post is to discuss real-world politics, with the latest strip forming a convenient veil.

[Tyrmatt]

Good for Redcloak, finally halfway to his dream. Now, going the distance is the next thing.

Of course as a Lawful Evil being he could turn this into a feasible city-state, as long as he remembers to keep the focus on oppressing dissidents and not just humans for the sake of it.

I wonder of course, should they remove their policies on human/PC race slavery, how quickly they could prove themselves as a nation. Suitably evil or neutral humans could probably live there quite peacefully alongside the gobbos if the goblins were willing to be nice for the sake of establishing position. Enough generations pass and it becomes the norm.

I can see this coming down to Roy, being the one who decides it. He's fair minded enough to do it.

[Roderick_BR]

Heh. Love the spoof Rich did with the speech. "Unprovoked attacks".
This got dangerously close to real world politics, tho.

And the other countries were quick in accepting the new country...

[Blaznak]

So Many Details to Love.... What a great strip!

[JoseB]

You know... When Redcloak, in his speech, says: "We stand on the precipice of a new Golden Age of goblin civilization", I half-expected him to then say: "And now we are going to give a big step forward!" :smalltongue:

(this would echo what a bigwig of the Phalanx --Franco's party-- said in a speech after the Spanish Civil War ended in 1939: "One year ago, Spain was at the edge of the abyss. But, now, we have taken a big step forward!").

[factotum]

They didn't restart the calendar? I'd have expected them to...


Why? The calendar years are used by everybody, up to and including the Deva who interviewed Roy--there's no evidence that it's anything other than 1184 anywhere in the world.

[Optimystik]

Is... is it wrong of me to feel good for the goblins and fully support them in this? I mean, honestly, they were born to be the universe's chew-toy, and now they have the advantages that so many took for granted. Is it wrong to draw similarities between them and the the people who had to fight for basic rights in our own world?

I've got no problem with them fighting for their rights, and even conquering Azure City to stop the killings wasn't all bad. But the ongoing slavery is a definite black mark for me.

They have their nation now - let them run it, instead of relying on human slaves. Do they really need a Goshen?


With this setup, I would expect we are in large part seeing the rise before the fall, because absolutely everything in Redcloak's character and background seems to point in that direction, with bonus Kick The Dog points for the cute little hobgoblin kid whose life expectancy probably just plummeted into the mid-teens. I also worry for the safety of the women and children whose location we now know about. I'm never entirely sure, though. Really, I only post on these boards on the off-chance that I'll get something right and will be able to yell: "called it!" Okay, not really. I'm also hoping I can pick up a travel brochure to Jewadise.

I agree completely. The entire vibe I got from this scene was him signing his people's death warrant, not saving them. He needs a way to keep Xykon under control, and he needs it fast.

[Jagos]

Maybe the goblins would have started their own calendar? Seems logical.

[Skaven]

Looks like he's finally accomplished his distorted dream.

His original dream was different, but over the years he's fell victim to the same own-kind elitism he hated in the PhB races.

[Onyavar]

Man, this is the first time I really chafe at the restriction against discussing politics in these parts, ' cause it seems that Rich certainly is.

I'm just glad that this forum is only about fictional politics. So this is the reason why I will not point out the striking similarity of the Gobbotopian flag to a real world flag, also with red background.

OK, so about fictional politics. *big grin*

Is the great mercantile city state of Cliffport really this dumb? They will not change the human rights in Gobbotopia by economic engagement! And if they really invest in Gobbotopia (as other posters have suggested), the goblins will steal their inventions, ruin the Cliffport economy by cheap products and get all their gold coins; thus dominating the world economy soon!

Really, leaders of Cliffport: Don't be short-sighted and deal with a race of a short life span. Settle the trade war with the euro... elves and co-operate with them! Even if the elves are snobbish and hesitate a lot before doing something.

[Dudde]

Hooray for Gobbotopia!

Finally some respect for all Goblin-kind.

[Rosnet]

Kinda boring. Quality has been lacking.

[Moridin]

LMAO at "Screw you sucker, it's OUR turn now!" as the national motto.

[Belkster11]

I love Gobbotopia. XD

[kierthos]

Hail, Hail Gobbotopia, the land Rich didn't make up!

(Incidentally, even if Belkar dies in six weeks, what exactly would keep from being Raised? I mean, there were how many strips working on the Ressurection of Roy? Yes, yes, I know, if there's no body, they can't raise him.)

[pendell]

Excellent strip! And yet, I feel sorry for Redcloak. His
'it'll all be worth it' speech harkens directly back to SOD. Somehow,
I don't think it will all be worth it. I think something will happen to ruin it all, and I suspect that 'something' is named Xykon. I think he likes nothing better than to grind the dreams of other people into the dust.



Victors really DO write the history. They just don't usually do it so fast. I haven't seen such self aggrandizing twisting of facts in a history book since... highschool.


Ya know, people always say that, but the victors get a monopoly on history only if they completely and utterly exterminate the losers and all witnesses, and sometimes not even then. Case in point: Trojan War. Also a little book called 'Bury my heart at Wounded Knee'.

For that matter, there seems to be a real desire in humans to romanticize defeat. Ya watch a hollywood movie, or read about your local equivalent about the Old Cause or Dixie or Troy or Robin Hood or whatever, you're going to read about someone who went up against impossible odds and got stomped into the ground. Overwhelming victory seems to leave the grandchildren of the victors feeling guilty, for some bizarre reason. Then other people like Virgil romanticize the losers. People still talk about Thermopylae. But no one remembers Salamis or Plataea.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[BobVosh]

I love the national anthem.

[RoninAngel]

Just wanted to say that the little hobgoblin child is adorable! :smallredface:

[Wolfram]

What comes up, must come down.

Let's belkarize Gobbotopia!

Worse. Let's Balkanize Gobbotopia!!!

[Pyron]

Man, is "Gobbotopia" really the best name they could come up with?

Personally, I think the Goblin's Republic of the Dark One has a nice ring.

[Belkster11]

Personally, I think the Goblin's Republic of the Dark One has a nice ring.

I dunno, I prefer "Republic of the Dark One". Flows more smoothly.

[Scarlet Knight]

They wanted to call it green-land but the hobgoblins would've gotten angry. ;)

Why? The Lapps don't seem to mind Lapland. Although the Department of Tourism's "Come for the Dancing" program left evryone cold...

[Acero]

that was a good strip. National Motto: Screw you suckers, its OUR turn!

is there a meaning behind the flag or anything like that?

[Conuly]

Why? The Lapps don't seem to mind Lapland. Although the Department of Tourism's "Come for the Dancing" program left evryone cold...

That's probably because you're supposed to call them the Sami, aren't you?

[frogspawner]

Poor Redcloak, he's sacrificed a lot in the name of Goblinkind hasn't he.
...and pretty soon he'll be sacrificing this lot too, no doubt. :smallfrown:

[Drakyn]

Is it weird that in the long run, unless further crazy leaks in, this seems to me like the best option they have, bar removable details like relying on enforced slavery of a tiny group of people and bothering to set up their kingdom on top of someone else's? Insofar as I know much about Right-eye's plan, wasn't it basically "live really out of the way and make friends with the tiny amounts of people who know where you are and hope that no one non-local comes along and slaughters you without asking twice"? Because I'm pretty sure that (minus the attempted contact) that was how their village was living before the paladins axed them, right? That doesn't seem like a good track record, and hiding from the problem doesn't seem like a great solution.

[Shale]

I just noticed the "in twenty years, you will tell your great-grandchildren that you were here!" line. That's great.

[Gamerlord]

Ah, sweet,sweet, government propaganda, is there nothing like it? :smalltongue:

[Dunesen]

Contrary to Tony Soprano syndrome (http://www.avclub.com/articles/man-bites-dog,37588/), I usually don't want to see villains and anti-heroes succeed. I may take perverse satisfaction in watching them do wrong and commit crimes, but I don't want to see them ultimately get away with it.

Redcloak is an exception, not because I take vicarious pleasure in seeing him conquer nations or try to fulfill the wishes of some dark deity, but because I can fully understand how he's justified in what he does and I have empathy for his endeavours.

It's an old canard that villains always have to justify their actions, and a lot of the time this amounts to either the villain being crazy/self-obsessed and thinking they're justified in doing what they're doing because it's them doing it, that they're exemplars of morality because they're special, or they try to justify what they do as being necessary because they have no choice, like a starving man stealing bread he can't afford.

Redcloak does feel justified, of course, and he does feel he has no choice (consider Start of Darkness and how he justifies prolonging his alliance with Xykon so that the goblins who have died so far did not do so in vain). But to a great extent I do feel he actually is justified, because he's doing what he can to ensure the survival of his species, a genetic imperative all organisms share.

Plus the paladins and Azure City aren't just innocent do-gooders either. I know not all paladins are like Miko, but the extended campaigns to eradicate the goblin species (a sentient species capable of culture, keep in mind) was an invitation to retaliation.

So I've enjoyed seeing Redcloak conquer Azure City (451 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html) may be my favorite strip in the series so far, both for Redcloak's "what have I done" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyGodWhatHaveIDone?from=Main.WhatHaveIDone) moment and for his speech at the end) and work to turn it into a proper nation (even if we've only gotten a hint of the latter via some dialogue), because in one sense I feel he's earned it.

Obviously I expect him to die by the end of the series and Azure City will be taken back by the humans (with help from the elves, which I'm hoping to see some mention of during this current break from the Order). But in the meantime it's nice to see a villain succeeding without hoping it's all set-up for a greater fall down the road. I wouldn't mind seeing Gobbotopia last as a nation.

[mezzomorto]

While reading the strip, it struck me that the flag of Gobbotopia -whether through design or coincidence - is pretty similar to the flag of the Communidad de Madrid, Spain

http://www.banderas.pro/banderas/s-280-im-bandera-madrid-1.gif

[Dunesen]

While reading the strip, it struck me that the flag of Gobbotopia -whether through design or coincidence - is pretty similar to the flag of the Communidad de Madrid, Spain

http://www.banderas.pro/banderas/s-280-im-bandera-madrid-1.gif

Stars are a common symbol in flags. I'd wager it's a coincidence. Unless the Giant is a history major or buff of some kind.

[Gift Jeraff]

I dunno, Xykon currently thinks somewhat highly of Jirix, seeing how he managed to warn him about O-Chul. He might insist on taking Jirix with them.

Yeah, #548 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) implies that Jirix was originally going to be left in the goblin nation when the core Team Evil left, but #662 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) makes me think Xykon wants to bring Jirix as a back-up Bearer of the Crimson Mantle. (And possibly trust him with the phylactery...)

[Belkster11]

Stars are a common symbol in flags. I'd wager it's a coincidence. Unless the Giant is a history major or buff of some kind.

I wouldn't put it past him. (is a history buff)

[Renrik]

I do believe that with this, Redcloak no longer needs so desperately to capture the gates. He can elevate goblin kind the old-fashioned way.

[Turkish Delight]

While reading the strip, it struck me that the flag of Gobbotopia -whether through design or coincidence - is pretty similar to the flag of the Communidad de Madrid, Spain

http://www.banderas.pro/banderas/s-280-im-bandera-madrid-1.gif

I seriously doubt it's anything but a weird coincidence.

That said, an allusion to the Spanish Civil War would be pretty awesome under the circumstances. The bloody-handed forces of reaction are coming for the oppressed peoples of Gobbotopia, to tear away their freedom and reduce them once more to chattel! Forward, in the name of the Revolution!

Maybe some low hit dice monster-race equivalents of the International Brigades, should the Elven incursions start picking up.

¡No pasarán!

[AtomicKitKat]

To add to the text from the textbooks: "half-orcs, half-...and others":smalltongue:

[Rappy]

I loved this latest comic. The national flower just...made it for me.

*Loves the yellow musk creeper in all its horrendous plant zombie-creating glory.*

[Barlen]

From Azure City through the Blue river valley and back to the mountain forts...Is it me or are they now the physically largest nation in the world? Thats a lot of territory.

[Ellen]

Gobbo - Topia

Actually translates as "Place of the Goblins."

Topia means place, Utopia originally meant "No Place" (a joke by the guy who first coined the term to describe a place that didn't exist).

Just thought I'd mention it.

[Nilan8888]

Another great strip. Things have, for me, kicked into high gear with this switch back to Team Evil.

Some thoughts...

1.
While the majority of Gobbotopia's population is composed of the three goblinoid races (goblins, bugbears, and hobgoblins, with the latter forming 93% of its permanent inhabitants,) the nation's borders are open to all disenfranchised humanoids and thus supports growing minorities of orcs, ogres, xvarts, gnolls (including flinds,) trolls, lycanthropes, minotaurs, ogres, orogs, medusas, sligs, grimlocks, lamias, hill giants, ettins, yakfolk, ettercaps, half-orcs, half-"

Picking up on what was said earlier from Tola and KieranHalcyon, is this paragraph in the book actually the key to Gobbotopia's downfall?

Someone mentioned that this would not be a true tragedy unless Gobbotopia was destroyed from within, likely a result of the Goblins mismanaging what they've been given.

Could the coming arc be for Readcloak to leave everything in the hands of his Goblin and Hobgolbin bretheren, only to return to find the nation has destroyed itself?

The thing about these disenfranchised humanoids is that yes, they may be disenfranchised, but are they not also EVIL? Sure, they've been unfairly branded as evil by the Gods -- but 'unfairly created to be' evil and 'fairly created to be' evil is still at the end of the day, evil, right?

And even if they weren't evil (which could be beside the point to what's being done here), why would they immigrate to a land just to live under the Goblins? Perhaps the Goblins may run thier nation poorly -- or maybe even run it well -- and naturally the Orcs, Minotaurs, Lycanthropes, etc will all want to break away and form thier OWN nations? And so the Goblins find themselves putting down rebellion after rebellion in a complete preversion of Redcloak's dream.

As the Pete Townshend song 'Won't Get Fooled Again' goes, "Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss".

2. It's been said Xykon won't like this going on. Thinking about it though, does he really care? I think he wouldn't like them wasting time and resources on speeches and textbooks that could be spent hunting down his phylactery, but I think Redcloak could still persuade him that this is still in his best interests: they can't haul this army of thiers very easy to continent after continent... I mean, where are they going to get the boats to head to the southern continent? Better that they take themselves and a number of elite hobgoblin soldiers and leave the nation as a continual wellspring of resources for themselves: if they go to Girard's gate and lose half thier men, they can just go back and get more. Better that then to drag around the entire civilization on thier backs unprotected, which takes a huge amount of time and organization.

So yeah, Xykon wants Redcloak to hurry up and make with the phylactery, and this nation-building is NOT the sort of thing that interests him. But it's been a week for him to get over everything with V, Redcloak can be pretty persuasive, and Xykon can probably see the benefits of an entire nation that can give him whatever he wants within reason.

3. Great satire going on here in both general and specific senses. There's nods, I think, to 9.11, Fascism, the creation of Israel, the Balkans... at once it's reflecting none of these things and all of them. Which I figure a number of people have picked up on. A touch on the dangerous side, but then that's where the best stuff comes from, doesn't it?

All they need now is a Committee of Public Safety. Fantastic.

[rewinn]

....the real question will be if they can really keep things running... especially while suffering from an on going resistance movement
The original hobgoblin nation seemed pretty well organized, what with 80 or so legions encamped in the mountains and an awesome amount of discipline. It'd be a LE nation and would have to work some way of dealing with the CE monsters but that's a problem for any country.


Is the great mercantile city state of Cliffport really this dumb? They will not change the human rights in Gobbotopia by economic engagement! And if they really invest in Gobbotopia (as other posters have suggested), the goblins will steal their inventions, ruin the Cliffport economy by cheap products and get all their gold coins; thus dominating the world economy soon!
Perhaps policy in Cliffport is not made by the citizenry, but by a wealthy minority confident in its ability to do just fine under any economic conditions other than equality.

[Optimystik]

Why is it such a big draw for them to destroy themselves, when they have a perfectly good omnicidal psychotic lich ready and able to do it for them?

[SoC175]

Imagine he's given the ritual to Tsukiko and he's gonna teleport out without Redcloak. How would Redcloak take that? Well, if the ritual would still do what it's supposed to do, he might actually welcome that.

[DabblerWizard]

I'm happy for Redcloak and all the goblins. Xykon is the real evil after all. I'm sure the other non-goblin/monster races will be able to live harmoniously with a group of evil man haters. :smalleek:

[wootage]

Can't say I like the changing of our National Anthem's lyrics to suit some goblins...

And I know it's unintentional, but I'm seeing the comparison of the elves to terrorists and the American military to an occupation force.

Just bad timing, I guess. And I know it's just a comic, but some things hit harder to home than others.

Don't worry, it's standard pro-society newspeak, fully government-approved at the highest levels. And it's only temporary to help ensure that the nation's first steps are in the best possible direction. We've made sure that a review (and if deemed necessary, revision) are included on one of the leadership agendas, so you may rest assured that the matter is being handled appropriately.

Thank you for your concern good citizen, it's people like you that make us proud to be your public servants!

*quietly places HUMVEE Driver, his/her family and all of their friends on 4 separate watch lists*

[Nilan8888]

Why is it such a big draw for them to destroy themselves, when they have a perfectly good omnicidal psychotic lich ready and able to do it for them?

Well...

1. Because the Lich has other things to do, presently.

2. Because, I feel, it's already been well established that Xykon is a double-edged sword. Wouldn't this just be a repeat of what happened in SoD? Sure, there's the theme of it happening over and over again... but maybe it might be best to change that up a little?

3. It might be a better rebuttal of Redcloak's dream. That in the end it is not even Redcloak's methods justifying the means, which was bad enough... but that even that dream, as he saw it, was twisted and unattainable becuase it defined itself in getting back at the oppressors, and not just letting it all go and moving on (which I believe is what Right-Eye was doing).

If Xykon destroys it, it was the methods that were flawed, not his dream or goal. We already know his methods are flawed. Perhaps his dream needs to suffer the same treatment as it is taken to its logical conclusion.

Vive le Revolution.

[The_Weirdo]

Not wrong at all. The deal goblins got when they were created would make any decent person angry. I couldn't help feeling a lot of sympathy for the goblins since reading SoD (maybe because of me too being a descendant of "source of loot and xp" people). You just need to remember that goblins =/= Redcloak and supporting goblins does not mean supporting RC's crazy terrorist Plan.

Hear hear.

[wootage]

I wonder how long until they start declaring war and trying to take over the world via military force. In the process enslaving humanity.

Yay?

About ten seconds after they start thinking they can ;)

[Optimystik]

Well...

1. Because the Lich has other things to do, presently.

Actually, he doesn't - and won't until they find his missing bauble.


2. Because, I feel, it's already been well established that Xykon is a double-edged sword. Wouldn't this just be a repeat of what happened in SoD? Sure, there's the theme of it happening over and over again... but maybe it might be best to change that up a little?

There's no reason to change his character just because we got a glimpse of it in SoD. For starters, not everyone who has read the online comic has read that book, so "Xykon the Magnificent Bastard" is not necessarily a played out concept. Secondly, he is intentionally a one-dimensional character. Being an asshat is what Xykon does best - see also, Redcloak's eye.

What will be the next "Idiot Tax" when Redcloak messes up? Xykon has no reason not to use that entire bustling city of peons as leverage to keep his pet cleric in line, and properly punished if need be.


3. It might be a better rebuttal of Redcloak's dream. That in the end it is not even Redcloak's methods justifying the means, which was bad enough... but that even that dream, as he saw it, was twisted and unattainable becuase it defined itself in getting back at the oppressors, and not just letting it all go and moving on (which I believe is what Right-Eye was doing).

If Xykon destroys it, it was the methods that were flawed, not his dream or goal. We already know his methods are flawed. Perhaps his dream needs to suffer the same treatment as it is taken to its logical conclusion.

Vive le Revolution.

But Right-Eye's plan hinged on goblins not being self-destructive, and not being antagonistic to their neighbors. For them to act this way now will just prove that HIS dream was unattainable as well.

Besides, the methods WERE flawed. you rely on an epic-level, unholy mockery of all life to establish your sovereign nation when he has no personal investment in it, you've got to go in expecting consequences. Furthermore, Xykon was human, so the irony that Redcloak's dream of paying them back relied upon allying with one is still quite palpable.

[Doug Lampert]

IIRC, Adam Smith said that slavery wasn't sustainable, but can't recall the details.

Basically: If you're raising replacement slaves you have all the expenses of hiring a subsistence level worker + the capital cost of the slaves + the added cost of security.

Remember that in Adam Smith's time it was fairly trivial to hire someone for a barely livable wage. So, it's cheaper just to hire people and you get more flexibility to respond to a changing work enviroment.

Historically most slave populations have reproduced at (far) less than replacement level. It works because you're dodging the costs of raising the children (free workers will insist on enough to potentially raise a family), and you can put workers at greater risk than free men would tollerate, you make up the difference by slave-taking (i.e. grabbing already adult productive workers, and forcing them to produce for you).

So it's not sustainable unless you can grab new slaves at less than the cost of raising them. This is why simply banning the importation of slaves in 1809 was expected by many to bring slavery to a natural end over time if the ban was effectively enforced.

Unfortunately the cotton gin raised the return on gang plantation labor to more than the cost of replacement slaves even if you did have to raise them from childhood. That was probably a temporary aberation, by 1861 Egypt and India were both also exporting substantial cotton and in time would probably have outcompeated the US slave plantations.

DougL

[SoC175]

You know, the release of human slaves in exchange for being recognized by the allies of AC (and maybe even AC too if they settle for taking the elven island as new territory) could make for a decent trade

[Big Hungry Joe]

Is Redcloak still using his backup holy symbol?

And interesting point about V/Team Peregrine. I wonder if V's scry-n-die made Xykon/Redcloak more wary of elves in general, and contributed to Team Peregrine's apparent demise. I hope we get some sort of flashback/narrative on what happened to them, since they seemed halfway competent and apparently managed to assault the tower itself. If Shinjo/O-Chul had coordinated with them better, maybe they would have gone after the phylactery instead.

[Doug Lampert]

Pretty hard, really. The use of "insurgent" is a direct reference to current events.

He could have used "terrorist" or "resistance" to make is less topical.

The word "insurgent" goes back at least to 1755, was applied to the American Founding fathers, and retrospectively applied to people going back to anchient Rome.

I completely miss how it has to be current. The current usage of terrorist OTOH is more recent and current.

[Adama]

What does the Northern calendar have to do with anything? A year's time is a year's time. The only person who has said anything about the actual calendar date is the Oracle, who lives in the South.

Which makes it all work out logically, if the Oracle was referring to the southern calendar. The capture of Azure City was a week after the last new year. If we're six weeks shy of that, then it means five weeks left in the current (southern) calendar year. That would square perfectly with Roy saying seven weeks, the week spent searching the desert, and presumably another week spent traveling so far.

By the way, does anyone else but me think that Belkar's impending death may not be what we expect? I have the strong suspicion that one way or another we're going to end up seeing an Undead Belkar. The oracle said Belkar would "take his last breath--ever--before the end of the year." Undead don't need to breathe.

[Doug Lampert]

Victors really DO write the history. They just don't usually do it so fast. I haven't seen such self aggrandizing twisting of facts in a history book since... highschool.

edit: How exactly does one make a kosher milkshake anyway?

Typically the same way you make any other milkshake. The rules for Kashrut apply only to meat products. Unless animal derived gelatin or something similar is used in the icecream you're probably fine.

[Optimystik]

Is Redcloak still using his backup holy symbol?

Yes - the backup is diamond-shaped, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) the regular one is circular. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html) They have not found the normal one yet.



By the way, does anyone else but me think that Belkar's impending death may not be what we expect? I have the strong suspicion that one way or another we're going to end up seeing an Undead Belkar. The oracle said Belkar would "take his last breath--ever--before the end of the year." Undead don't need to breathe.

He's also "not long for this world" - he might end up Undead, but he won't be here when he is

Maybe he'll die in the world inside the Snarl?

[Kurald Galain]

Heh.

Redcloak is quite the nerd to think "Gobbotopia" is a good name for a nation :smallbiggrin:

Also, I'm sure I won't be the first one to point out that the flag puts hobgoblins below other kinds of goblins...

[zql]

did anyone noticed that the textbooks are edited in oriental way of reading (spine to the right) ?

[factotum]

Incidentally, even if Belkar dies in six weeks, what exactly would keep from being Raised? I mean, there were how many strips working on the Ressurection of Roy? Yes, yes, I know, if there's no body, they can't raise him.)

The Oracle's prophecy keeps him from being raised, because it specified (in various ways) that his death would be rather permanent. It seems unlikely Roy and the others would WANT to raise Belkar in any case. Finally, note that having no body does NOT prevent someone being raised--True Resurrection will do the job regardless, but nobody in the Order is high enough level to cast that.

[Elurindel]

Why do I get the feeling that Xykon is going to kill them all for his amusement, and to dash Redcloak's hopes again?

[HandofShadows]

Interesting. Redcloak has done soemthing to gain some measure of respect for the humanoids. And I suspect that before to long it will self destruct.

[Nilan8888]

Actually, he doesn't - and won't until they find his missing bauble.

Well he's got Tsukiko writing up different version of the ritual, right? Point of fact is that Xykon is to at least some degree focused on the gates. It doesn't make sense for him to go out of his way to mess up Gobbotopia when it fits what he wants to do. Besides, screwing up the ENTIRE country would take a lot of effort, even for Xykon. As well as self-destructive at this point. He'll probably only do that if he were even more ticked than we've seen him and bsically didn't think the Goblins were ever going to deliver his phylactery or his gates. And at this point, although it's not of much use to him... they DID deliver Azure City (and it's gate -- but Xykon himself had a decent hand in botching that job).




There's no reason to change his character just because we got a glimpse of it in SoD. For starters, not everyone who has read the online comic has read that book, so "Xykon the Magnificent Bastard" is not necessarily a played out concept. Secondly, he is intentionally a one-dimensional character. Being an asshat is what Xykon does best - see also, Redcloak's eye.

Well Xykon failing to destroy the new goblin utopia is not necessarily out of character for him when he could just not care what happens to it. And, not to possibly second guess, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to repeat an idea full-form just because its source hasn't appeared on line. To this I can speak from experience: I have not read SoD. Although I do consider myself sufficiently spoiled as to its contents.

Yes, Xykon is an asshat and does it well. But we don't even need to visit SoD, I'd wager, to figure that out as-is. So why then use this just to replay what's been done and re-iterate points? Sure, the characters are acting in-character but does Xykon necessarily NEED more evidence to prove he's a horrible person, and does Redcloak NEED another reminder of why he shouldn't be doing what he's doing in teaming up with him? Redcloak's already well aware of the lesson, I figure.



What will be the next "Idiot Tax" when Redcloak messes up? Xykon has no reason not to use that entire bustling city of peons as leverage to keep his pet cleric in line, and properly punished if need be.

True enough and Redcloak knows this. No doubt there's probably a threat or two he'll be encountering shortly. But then at this point that's what we'd expect so it might be of value to not do that, in the end, in order to defy expectations.



But Right-Eye's plan hinged on goblins not being self-destructive, and not being antagonistic to their neighbors. For them to act this way now will just prove that HIS dream was unattainable as well.

Sure. But then -- and I'm being fairly unknowledgable first hand on this, so bear with me -- wasn't Right-Eye's setup predicated differently? Already Redcloak's setting up his dream rather differently, wouldn't you say? He's got some very high-minded... or low-minded depending on your POV... notions at work with textbooks and flags and anthems and credos. Did Right-eye go for all this stuff or was he more a proponent of letting people just live as they will?

If you set up a revolutionary government with a revolutionary zeal, and that is your dream, is that necessarily the same as was done with Right-Eye?


Besides, the methods WERE flawed. you rely on an epic-level, unholy mockery of all life to establish your sovereign nation when he has no personal investment in it, you've got to go in expecting consequences. Furthermore, Xykon was human, so the irony that Redcloak's dream of paying them back relied upon allying with one is still quite palpable.

Absolutely, it's just that... haven't we seen those consequences before? Haven't we seen them just at the conclusion of the last Team-Evil related arc? His methods being flawed were the entire reason he just lost his eye. Maybe it's time for Redcloak's flaws to show a little more than just his decision to ally with Xykon.

[HUMVEE Driver]

Don't worry, it's standard pro-society newspeak, fully government-approved at the highest levels. And it's only temporary to help ensure that the nation's first steps are in the best possible direction. We've made sure that a review (and if deemed necessary, revision) are included on one of the leadership agendas, so you may rest assured that the matter is being handled appropriately.

Thank you for your concern good citizen, it's people like you that make us proud to be your public servants!

*quietly places HUMVEE Driver, his/her family and all of their friends on 4 separate watch lists*

Do you see anything ironic about making disparaging remarks about the very institution that allows you to make disparaging remarks?

[Tom90deg]

I think we're all forgetting a MASSIVE elephant in the room. Remember the Snarl rift? That was (and assumingly still is) growing? That's RIGHT over the city? The whole "Goblin Nation" thing may be a bit short lived, unless they managed to seal it back up, but the purple sky says no to me.

[Optimystik]

Well he's got Tsukiko writing up different version of the ritual, right?

Let's not jump the gun just yet - we have no idea what he has her doing, or even if she's capable of "writing up" any new rituals. My bet is that he's simply having her decipher it, so he can figure out what it is meant to do on his own. And if he learns that the ritual has nothing to do with controlling the Snarl themselves, then Redcloak will be in serious hot water, and his new city-state will suffer for it.

He doesn't have to mess up "the entire country" either. Without their new capital, their country simply won't last. Xykon is more than capable of wrecking a city, and even of withdrawing his protection so that the enemy races do so for him.

I don't see how Xykon taking out his ire on the city would be "reiterating points" either. It would mark a brand new turn in the strip - we know that he has no need for Redcloak the knowledge that he has no need whatsoever


True enough and Redcloak knows this. No doubt there's probably a threat or two he'll be encountering shortly. But then at this point that's what we'd expect so it might be of value to not do that, in the end, in order to defy expectations.

Just because something is expected, does not mean the writer should arbitrarily do something completely different.

We all knew V was going to make a deal with fiends once Qarr showed up on his island - thanks to the foreshadowing from his prophecy. Similarly, we know that Redcloak is going to betray Xykon eventually thanks to SoD, and the foreshadowing used there.


Sure. But then -- and I'm being fairly unknowledgable first hand on this, so bear with me -- wasn't Right-Eye's setup predicated differently? Already Redcloak's setting up his dream rather differently, wouldn't you say? He's got some very high-minded... or low-minded depending on your POV... notions at work with textbooks and flags and anthems and credos. Did Right-eye go for all this stuff or was he more a proponent of letting people just live as they will?

If you set up a revolutionary government with a revolutionary zeal, and that is your dream, is that necessarily the same as was done with Right-Eye?

What Right-Eye did differently, was that he quietly established a settlement and had his goblins trade with their human neighbors, rather than conquering and enslaving them.

The mere fact that he was able to do this shows that goblins are not the self-destructive, nihilistic beings you are predicting they will be.


Absolutely, it's just that... haven't we seen those consequences before? Haven't we seen them just at the conclusion of the last Team-Evil related arc? His methods being flawed were the entire reason he just lost his eye. Maybe it's time for Redcloak's flaws to show a little more than just his decision to ally with Xykon.

The problem I have with your prediction, is that you're not talking about Redcloak's flaws. You're talking about the goblin people being flawed, and collapsing from within due to some unsubstantiated inability to remain cohesive.

Nothing we've seen of them shows that they'd be unable to sustain a township on their own, if they simply got that leg-up to begin with. The hobgoblins are intelligent, disciplined and resourceful; they are more than willing to fall in line behind a regular goblin, and even act selflessly when duty requires it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)

So, on what are you basing this prediction of societal implosion?

By contrast, Xykon is a force of nature. For him to level their city would very much be a failing of Redcloak, because he did not build in the proper precautions before creating his weapon - rather like Gating in an uncontrolled creature.

I recall the story in Faiths & Pantheons, of the wizards that summoned Kossuth to destroy their enemy's army for them. He did this, and then promptly incinerated the very nation of the wizards that summoned him. Relying on powers you can't control to do your dirty work for you is extremely dangerous.

For Redcloak to do the same thing and be a total success would be anticlimactic.


I think we're all forgetting a MASSIVE elephant in the room. Remember the Snarl rift? That was (and assumingly still is) growing? That's RIGHT over the city? The whole "Goblin Nation" thing may be a bit short lived, unless they managed to seal it back up, but the purple sky says no to me.

That's a good point as well - another force of nature that spells doom for the goblins. You're right, it doesn't have to be Xykon.

[the_tick_rules]

Well this is going to be interesting. especially since xykon wants to pack up and leave.

[Eztheria]

The flag is very appropriate, red background for the red cloak green star for the standard goblins orange for the hobos, and brown for the bugbears, with the purple of the dark one over them all

Didn't see that one before you pointed it out. Thank you.


I so feel like standing in that crowd and waving the flag and cheering at Redcloak. I think he just finally hijacked place one on my favlist.

[Rodimal]

somehow I don't think this is going to end well.

[Dr.Epic]

"Screw you, SUCKERS, it's our turn now!" Brilliant!:smallbiggrin:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Why? The Lapps don't seem to mind Lapland. Although the Department of Tourism's "Come for the Dancing" program left evryone cold...

Are you sure that wasn't the Arctic Climate?

I find it interesting that Redcloak has decided to couch the Elven attack as 'unprovoked'. If he refers to V's assault (which I consider more likely - since we've switched over to the MitD I've had an inkling that we've been timeskipped backwards, a 'meanwhile, in the occupied territories...' if you will) then it was hardly unprovoked, as V and the rest of the OotS are longstanding enemies of Xykon and Team Evil. If, instead, he refers to the unseen actions of Team Peregrine or other Elven Commando Forces, it is still an attack by the longtime allies of the nation RC's conquered, so again, not so unprovoked.

[chrnno]

Can't say I like the changing of our National Anthem's lyrics to suit some goblins...

And I know it's unintentional, but I'm seeing the comparison of the elves to terrorists and the American military to an occupation force.

Just bad timing, I guess. And I know it's just a comic, but some things hit harder to home than others.

You just made it impossible for the goblin state to last much longer...

EDIT: I just realized it may be taken wrong, what i meant was that something completely unrelated to that will end up destroying the goblin state like Xykon, OOTS or something like that.

[Sir Aelthas]

This is bad for the Azurites...really bad.
Since Gobbotopia has been recognized as a proper country now by 17 different nations, and they won the city after a war, legally they do own that land. The Paladins can't launch an attack without going against legitimate authority now.

[RMS Oceanic]

This is bad for the Azurites...really bad.
Since Gobbotopia has been recognized as a proper country now by 17 different nations, and they won the city after a war, legally they do own that land. The Paladins can't launch an attack without going against legitimate authority now.

Thing is, there are more than 17 countries on the Western Continent, and the Eastern Continent seems to be a lot bigger, so 17 recognitions does not necessarily translate into a ringing endorsement from the international community. And just because a country recognises that another country exists doesn't mean they'll do anything if the second country is invaded.

[Dunesen]

This is bad for the Azurites...really bad.
Since Gobbotopia has been recognized as a proper country now by 17 different nations, and they won the city after a war, legally they do own that land. The Paladins can't launch an attack without going against legitimate authority now.

It doesn't strike me as unlikely that the humans in those 17 nations (or most of them, at least) would't make the minimum concession to the Azurites to stay out of any conflicts over the land in question, if not actually side with them against the goblins.

[factotum]

That's a good point as well - another force of nature that spells doom for the goblins.

Except it doesn't, because Redcloak said in strip #544 that the rate of growth of the rift had slowed considerably--he didn't expect it to get more than 100 feet bigger, which is certainly not large enough to consume Azure City.

[Logalmier]

Gobbotopia: worst name for a goblin nation ever.

[ThePhantasm]

Gobbotopia: worst name for a goblin nation ever.

Well, they are "Gobbos" and it is a "topia".... would you prefer Mordor?

[Optimystik]

Except it doesn't, because Redcloak said in strip #544 that the rate of growth of the rift had slowed considerably--he didn't expect it to get more than 100 feet bigger, which is certainly not large enough to consume Azure City.

That doesn't mean it won't pose a problem later, when all the gates are destroyed and the Snarl realizes there are big gaping holes in its prison.

Unless you're suggesting they move the whole city...?

[Sebastian]

I wasn't thinking of something so blase.

More along the lines of the Phylactery being located and Xykon dragging Redcloak out of Azure Ci Gobbotopia at what is an important stage in its development, and not giving him the opportunity to properly sort out who's in charge while he's gone, leaving them vulnerable to the resistance.

Eh,I think you are an optimist. I'm thinking that before they go out to reach the gate Xykon will try is last "kill city population and turn them into undead" epic spell. Just for kicks, and so that Redcloak don't get distracted by thinking what is happening in his city and focus on what is really important.

[The_Weirdo]

Do you see anything ironic about making disparaging remarks about the very institution that allows you to make disparaging remarks?

Because free speech is all it takes for a society to be perfect and, thus, immune to criticism? Furthermore, it's not like the right to free speech, as well as others, is granted by any state; people are born with them. Society isn't being generous when it doesn't curtail free speech, it's just performing a basic obligation. Rights are not a commodity or a favor. Those would be privileges.

As for the new nation, well, it invaded and occupied a country. And it is fighting against an insurgency of said country's natives. Gee. Why would anyone draw parallels? Oh, right, because the Sapphire Guard actually DID guard something not entirely unlike a WMD.

[Mystic Muse]

Eh,I think you are an optimist. I'm thinking that before they go out to reach the gate Xykon will try is last "kill city population and turn them into undead" epic spell. Just for kicks, and so that Redcloak don't get distracted by thinking what is happening in his city and focus on what is really important.

I don't think Redcloak would go along with Xykon if he killed and zombified every inhabitant.

[JonestheSpy]

Heh.

Redcloak is quite the nerd to think "Gobbotopia" is a good name for a nation :smallbiggrin:



Well, he's a cleric, not an English major.

[The_Weirdo]

I don't think Redcloak would go along with Xykon if he killed and zombified every inhabitant.

Redcloak accepted his brother's tragedy. Surely he'd accept that country's statistics.

[hamishspence]

Given Xykon has been having Tsukiko learn half a ritual (possibly the gate-control ritual?) that does make me wonder if Xykon and Redcloak are going to clash.

Alternatively, it's Xykon's half that she's learning- and he is going to stand back and make those two perform the ritual while he's watching them?

[BeholderMage]

Three generations in twenty years, do goblins really live that fast?

Yes, they do. IIRC a goblin's life span is about 40 years, though I'm sure hobgoblins live longer.

The interesting thing about that is that generally each new generation of goblins has no clue why a bunch of bearded midgits are suddenly charging over the hill, waving flagons and axes talking about some goblin warlord 200 generations back the first time it happens.

[slayerx]

This is bad for the Azurites...really bad.
Since Gobbotopia has been recognized as a proper country now by 17 different nations, and they won the city after a war, legally they do own that land. The Paladins can't launch an attack without going against legitimate authority now.

To add to what others were saying, i would also mention that most likely most of those 17 nations are more than likely evil nations... hell some probably come from the dictatorships in the western continent and as such are countries that will cease to exists within the next 2 years... after that comes a few other countries like Cliffport and probably a few small neighbors who are just afraid of getting invaded.

And really, the city runs on the basis of Lawful Evil... Paladins fight against chaos and evil; you fit either one and you are pretty much fair game in the eyes of gods. the gobbo nation would have to convert themselves to neutrality, and develop some positive morals if they wanted to prevent paladins from attacking.

Which is again why i think their maintaining of human slavery will be their ultimate downfall... as long as they do that, they have no moral high ground to stand on and will like fall to the forces of good in the long run... so long as Azurites suffer, Hinjo, the rebels, their allies, and most good characters will not stop until the goblin nation falls

[Sebastian]

I don't think Redcloak would go along with Xykon if he killed and zombified every inhabitant.

And what he is gonna do about it?

[The_Weirdo]

To add to what others were saying, i would also mention that most likely most of those 17 nations are more than likely evil nations... hell some probably come from the dictatorships in the western continent and as such are countries that will cease to exists within the next 2 years... after that comes a few other countries like Cliffport and probably a few small neighbors who are just afraid of getting invaded.

And really, the city runs on the basis of Lawful Evil... Paladins fight against chaos and evil; you fit either one and you are pretty much fair game in the eyes of gods. the gobbo nation would have to convert themselves to neutrality, and develop some positive morals if they wanted to prevent paladins from attacking.

Which is again why i think their maintaining of human slavery will be their ultimate downfall... as long as they do that, they have no moral high ground to stand on and will like fall to the forces of good in the long run... so long as Azurites suffer, Hinjo, the rebels, their allies, and most good characters will not stop until the goblin nation falls

Okay, would this be a bad moment to point out that
The Lawful Good Paladins, oh how nice they are, randomly attacked a defenseless Goblin village, killed them all, and let the gods sort it out? Because, yes, of their species?

How is doing that too different from enslaving someone else because of their species? How exactly do they get to claim moral high ground? Because of the words in the alignment part of their char sheet? You can argue that the slaves aren't the ones that attacked the village; fine. In that case, the ones that attacked the village must be handed over for trial. No matter their current age. And, given that one CAN disturb the dead with spells in that world, no matter even their condition of dead or alive.

[BeholderMage]

You know, despite it all - I'm really kind of happy for Redcloak. It's difficult to not see his point of view on the matter, and I hope he manages to hold onto it. (Would be nice if they could give up the whole "human slavery" thing, of course...)

That said, though, why do I have the horrible feeling that Xykon is going to do something to screw it all up? (Maybe it's just because he ALWAYS does?)

I definitely feel happy for him. I'm thinking of throwing Gobbotopia or an equivalent into my game, though I wish I'd gotten the inspiration sooner... I'm not sure if the party will head back to the prime any time soon...

[The_Weirdo]

I definitely feel happy for him. I'm thinking of throwing Gobbotopia or an equivalent into my game, though I wish I'd gotten the inspiration sooner... I'm not sure if the party will head back to the prime any time soon...

You'd not happen to be from Belo Horizonte, Minas Gerais, Brazil, would you? I wanna game in the Planes so much... :smalltongue:

[t3h l3g1t m4g3]

Huh. I didn't know bugbears were goblinoids. You learn something new everyday.:smallbiggrin:

[jlvm4]

Truly a glorious moment for noncore races, and yet I can't help but feel Xykon is going to ruin it.

Yeah, they're pretty much screwed. After all this is the same guy who asked Undead? Is there any problem they can't solve? I detect a very unhappy Xykon when he finds out about this. The Hobgobs and such don't want to leave to go gate hunting.

[Nilan8888]

Let's not jump the gun just yet - we have no idea what he has her doing, or even if she's capable of "writing up" any new rituals. My bet is that he's simply having her decipher it, so he can figure out what it is meant to do on his own. And if he learns that the ritual has nothing to do with controlling the Snarl themselves, then Redcloak will be in serious hot water, and his new city-state will suffer for it.

Sure. My point is though that whatever he's doing it seems a pretty reasonable possibility that he's not overly concerned with what the Goblins are doing as long as his Phylactery is found. He's got his mind on other things, namely the Gates and his phylactery. I highly doubt he's going to, for instance, destroy Gobbotopia just to punish Redcloak if Redcloak is obedient.

And of course if he's not we sort of all know the first thing he's going to do.



He doesn't have to mess up "the entire country" either. Without their new capital, their country simply won't last. Xykon is more than capable of wrecking a city, and even of withdrawing his protection so that the enemy races do so for him.

Sure. But that's a big city and it's still taking a lot of effort on his part.


I don't see how Xykon taking out his ire on the city would be "reiterating points" either. It would mark a brand new turn in the strip - we know that he has no need for Redcloak the knowledge that he has no need whatsoever

I... don't follow. It's been stated in SoD and online in a number of ways that Xykon and the Goblins are not exactly on the same "side". It would be a turn, yes. And there's nothing to say this might not happen anyway even if the nation crumbled considerably from within. But I'm not sure it would be a BRAND NEW turn, exactly.



Just because something is expected, does not mean the writer should arbitrarily do something completely different.

Of course not. But I fail to see how this would be "arbitrarily different". I would argue it plays into the story very well.


We all knew V was going to make a deal with fiends once Qarr showed up on his island - thanks to the foreshadowing from his prophecy. Similarly, we know that Redcloak is going to betray Xykon eventually thanks to SoD, and the foreshadowing used there.

Yes -- but at least V's obsession with power hadn't been dealt with yet. At least beyond the hints that had been given so far. That plot arc hadn't climaxed at that point. V hadn't come to any particular ill tidings for his actions other than fatigue and frustration.

Redcloak has already lost his brother to Xykon. Has lost, essentially, his eye. Has lost so many of his own kinsmen.



What Right-Eye did differently, was that he quietly established a settlement and had his goblins trade with their human neighbors, rather than conquering and enslaving them.

The mere fact that he was able to do this shows that goblins are not the self-destructive, nihilistic beings you are predicting they will be.

Exactly, but no it doesn't. At least, I figure. The Goblins are being led differently now. Perhaps it will not be as cut and dry and all that and there will be dissention, but don't the Goblinoids have as much potential for nihilism and self-destruction as anyone? I think the mere fact Right-Eye was able to do this shows goblins CAN not be self-destructive. Not that as a given they will not be given short-sighted leadership.

To say that they would end up relatively the same under either leader -- doesn't that discount the differences between Redcloak and his brother and the way they lead? One goblin, it could be said, founded 'gobbotopia'. The other one is currently founding 'GOBBOTOPIA', so to speak.



The problem I have with your prediction, is that you're not talking about Redcloak's flaws. You're talking about the goblin people being flawed, and collapsing from within due to some unsubstantiated inability to remain cohesive.

Nothing we've seen of them shows that they'd be unable to sustain a township on their own, if they simply got that leg-up to begin with. The hobgoblins are intelligent, disciplined and resourceful; they are more than willing to fall in line behind a regular goblin, and even act selflessly when duty requires it.

So, on what are you basing this prediction of societal implosion?

Because that's what Readcloak's sort of leadership would lead to. What all Revolutionary leadership, if taken too far and the leader doesn't do the "Cinncinatus to Mount Vernon" of George Washington. When you base something off of nationalism and too much of a sense of US, then by extention difficulty comes about when you have to deal with THEM.

I'd wager Right-Eye just had a philosophy of just get by, live and let live. There was no proving anything to anyone.

Redcloak's not like that. From what I can see there's a lot in what he does that's done out of a need to achieve something that he doesn't need to achieve in this way.



By contrast, Xykon is a force of nature. For him to level their city would very much be a failing of Redcloak, because he did not build in the proper precautions before creating his weapon - rather like Gating in an uncontrolled creature.

Yeah but... wasn't Xykon ALWAYS more powerful? That is something of a tall order there, isn't it?


I recall the story in Faiths & Pantheons, of the wizards that summoned Kossuth to destroy their enemy's army for them. He did this, and then promptly incinerated the very nation of the wizards that summoned him. Relying on powers you can't control to do your dirty work for you is extremely dangerous.

For Redcloak to do the same thing and be a total success would be anticlimactic.

It already hasn't been a total success, though. He's lost his brother, his eye, and probably an awful lot of the original goblin race.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, they're pretty much screwed. After all this is the same guy who asked Undead? Is there any problem they can't solve? I detect a very unhappy Xykon when he finds out about this. The Hobgobs and such don't want to leave to go gate hunting.

Wait.

They prepared an occasion, reunited a crowd around the tower, made a flag, found a flagpole, set up a curtain and so on, and you think Xykon doesn't know? Man, with + 8 to Listen and other bonuses, give him some credit, will ya?

[jlvm4]

Wait.

They prepared an occasion, reunited a crowd around the tower, made a flag, found a flagpole, set up a curtain and so on, and you think Xykon doesn't know? Man, with + 8 to Listen and other bonuses, give him some credit, will ya?

Xykon has shown himself to be easily distracted (witness the games with o-chul) and greatly disinterested in his minions as a whole (he's pretty much left everything up to Redcloak). He could probably care less what they do in terms of nation-building or even mass-murder until he finds his Phylactery. Once he's ready to go, then he'll care what the goblins are up to and that's when they will first have to say 'no' to him.

Before that, it's like messing with the lives of ants. Why bother?

[The_Weirdo]

Xykon has shown himself to be easily distracted (witness the games with o-chul) and greatly disinterested in his minions as a whole (he's pretty much left everything up to Redcloak). He could probably care less what they do in terms of nation-building or even mass-murder until he finds his Phylactery. Once he's ready to go, then he'll care what the goblins are up to and that's when they will first have to say 'no' to him.

Before that, it's like messing with the lives of ants. Why bother?

Still. These are man-sized orange ants. Surely he knows they have a nation now. Whether he CARES is another thing, but he sure KNOWS.

[rewinn]

I find it interesting that Redcloak has decided to couch the Elven attack as 'unprovoked'. If he refers to V's assault (which I consider more likely - since we've switched over to the MitD I've had an inkling that we've been timeskipped backwards, a 'meanwhile, in the occupied territories...' if you will) then it was hardly unprovoked, as V and the rest of the OotS are longstanding enemies of Xykon and Team Evil.

I hope you're not suggesting RC is incapable of lying!

Attacks on Evil Tyrants are ALWAYS unprovoked ... according to the Evil Tyrants.

[Ravens_cry]

He may only have one eye, but Red Cloak has great vision.
For Gobbotopia!:smallbiggrin:

[Red XIV]

Still. These are man-sized orange ants. Surely he knows they have a nation now. Whether he CARES is another thing, but he sure KNOWS.
It's highly unlikely that he cares.

Most likely, Redcloak's sent as many hobbos into the sewers are physically capable of fitting into them for the phylactery search. What the rest of the minions are up to, he's got more interesting things to pay attention to, like Reanimated Gladiators (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html).

[bsparrow]

I don't think Redcloak would go along with Xykon if he killed and zombified every inhabitant.

Then you don't know Redcloak.

The only reason Redcloak is still following Xykon (and not kicking him to the curb for some other arcane caster) is because of the fallacy of Sunken Cost. By RC's reckoning, he's already lost too much while working with Xykon to abandon the lich now, because that would somehow lessen the value of the deaths of his family and friends. Therefore, he's going to continue following Xykon to the culmination of the Plan, no matter what Xykon gets up to in the meantime. Worse, Xykon knows this, and is perfectly capable and willing to use it in his favor.

Heck, I wouldn't put it about Xykon to zombify the entire army just to ruffle RC's fur.

[Mr. Spock]

I don't think Gobbotpia will last very long.

[SpellCASTER]

Rich Burlew really shows his fondness of the D&D world.
Doesn't this seem like the situation in R.A. Salvatore's The Silent Blade Trilogy.

Fact 1: Obould Many-Arrows (FR) and Redcloak (OOTS) both are of goblinoid heritage.

Fact 2: Both dont have just their species under their influence. Obould has the trolls and goblins, and ogres; Redcloak has goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears.

Fact 3: They both have conquests on influential lands.

Fact 4: They both erected their own nations.

[DomaDoma]

Huh, I wonder who the brown goblins are?

[Zxo]

Fact 2: Both dont have just their species under their influence. Obould has the trolls and goblins, and ogres; Redcloak has goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears.



I haven't seen those bugbears yet. While Gobbotopia declares that it welcomes other humanoids, we do not know if they will be willing to join (and be ruled by goblins). It's probably better for the new country if they don't, especially the CE ones.

[HUMVEE Driver]

{Scrubbed}

[The_Weirdo]

{Scrubbed}

[elonin]

Don't know if anyone has bought this up only having read one page back, but I love the official plant being the Yellow Musk Creeper.

I'm also not very surprised that the local region has accepted the goblins. They have been there for a year and likely didn't care for the paladins. It's not as though they they went out of their way to help when the Azurites came hat in hand. I'm also guessing that the conquering of Azure city had a stabilizing effect on the goblins. From not expanding their rule to other nearby cities and goblins from the local region flocking to the city. Sounds like a win win.

[Ultimate Dragon]

hooray! no more blue! now to paint the city green orange and brown!

[The_Weirdo]

hooray! no more blue! now to paint the city green orange and brown!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/FIP/CA-00001-C~Sun-Kissed-California-Orange-Orchard.jpg

[Nilan8888]

Just because it's a cliche doesn't mean it isn't true: Freedom isn't free.

The thing I find out about this quote is that those who say it in times for peace seem to long for times of war where the true heroes can come out of the woodwork and prove it to be so, and the foolish get thier just deserts. They REALLY want to prove it when it doesn't need proving.

Of course a few thousand would die in the process, but who really cares about that in the greater argument of who is right and who is wrong?