If I was an average Azurite right now

[Alex Warlorn]

If I was an average Azurite right now, one who had never heard of the Sapphire Guard or the Gate to begin with, weather one who had managed somehow to escape alive, or was now a ghost whose dead body was being used as part of an undead army, or was now enslaved. I'd just have three words for Redcloak and his declaration of renaming my HOME.

"F', you, bastard!"

If the resistance can pick up on this, and use it to their advantage, they can have an all out slave riot on the goblin's hands.

[SPoD]

Yes, I'm sure this will really rally the throngs of people who weren't offended by Redcloak conquering their homeland, enslaving their species, and holding on to it for a year, but are incensed at a name change.

Seriously, changing the name is like 35th on the list of Bad Things Redcloak Has Done to Azure City. I think at this point, any Azurite who's not already mad is a lost cause.

[ThePhantasm]

Its not like there are any humans who are buddying up to the goblins right now.... why would they need any extra convincing by the Resistance?

[Conuly]

Its not like there are any humans who are buddying up to the goblins right now.... why would they need any extra convincing by the Resistance?

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

[Temotei]

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

MitD? :smallamused:

[Southern Cross]

Actually,given all the weird stuff we've seen the MiTD do,human is the one thing he probably isn't....

[Vargtass]

Except Tsukiko, and only to jump Xykon's bones.

...

Actually, that's an interesting question. ARE there any human collaborators? We haven't seen any, of course.

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia. The other sovereign states that have recognised Gobbotopia could also well contain humans, but we don't know yet.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

After reading SoD, I'm with Redcloak here, go gobbos!:smallbiggrin:

[Katana_Geldar]

Seriously, changing the name is like 35th on the list of Bad Things Redcloak Has Done to Azure City. I think at this point, any Azurite who's not already mad is a lost cause.

I must see this list :smalltongue:

[dps]

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia. The other sovereign states that have recognised Gobbotopia could also well contain humans, but we don't know yet.

I think that Conuly meant Azurites who might be collabarating, not foreign nations.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Depends on your definition. From today's strip, it is clear that Cliffport (mainly human population) supports Gobbotopia.
No, they don’t really support gobbotopia. They just oppose the elves and are pulling an “enemy of my enemy” thing to get at the elves.

[ScottishDragon]

After reading SoD, I'm with Redcloak here, go gobbos!:smallbiggrin:

:D same here(cept for reading sod:smalleek:)

[Slayn82]

Well, the fact is that with an entire nation of goblinoids and other monsters organizing themselves, and founding an civilization, acepting to trade with other countries, the number of ramdom monsters everywhere else will fall. Literally, a lot of bandits and unemployees will migrate to Gobbotopia. So, less internal troubles. I guess the related nations will activelly encourage their emigration.

Also, a strong reason why those races are so much reviled is because they are "uncivilized". By getting their own nation, they will be able to change the status quo.

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands. I guess a lot of the kingdom of Azure city had originally belonged to the primitive monsters and goblins near it, who were killed and forced away. Now, their lots are inverted.

I hope the goblins turn out ok, and diplomacy allow the humans to get some freedom and citizenship in Gobbotopia or be eventually allowed to leave.


The trouble is that with so much sucess, the reasons for RC to follow the plan are reduced. So, i fear he will be sabbotaged by Xykon and his own God, in order for RC to go along the plan.

[Alex Warlorn]

Well, the fact is that with an entire nation of goblinoids and other monsters organizing themselves, and founding an civilization, acepting to trade with other countries, the number of ramdom monsters everywhere else will fall. Literally, a lot of bandits and unemployees will migrate to Gobbotopia. So, less internal troubles. I guess the related nations will activelly encourage their emigration.

Also, a strong reason why those races are so much reviled is because they are "uncivilized". By getting their own nation, they will be able to change the status quo.

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands. I guess a lot of the kingdom of Azure city had originally belonged to the primitive monsters and goblins near it, who were killed and forced away. Now, their lots are inverted.

I hope the goblins turn out ok, and diplomacy allow the humans to get some freedom and citizenship in Gobbotopia or be eventually allowed to leave.


The trouble is that with so much sucess, the reasons for RC to follow the plan are reduced. So, i fear he will be sabbotaged by Xykon and his own God, in order for RC to go along the plan.

Imagine if it was the Dark One who gave Xykon hints on where to find Redcloak and where to get info on the other gates. Because he had put so much into creating the Crimson Mantle, he just can't recreate it tra la la and give it to ANOTHER goblin who thinks all humans are clones of Miko.

Also, seriously, I don't think the Azurites are just gonna settle down permanently. It's not outside the law of probability that the elves are gonna come along and say, "HEY! What are you guys living in my summer home?!" The elves might have withdrawn from it, but it could still be legally their territory. True, elves aren't known for their fast response time, but that's because they ANALYZE the situation as realistically possible first, because unlike other races (comparatively shorter lived), if the elves screw up, those elves WILL be around to deal with the long term consequences themselves!

Xykon destroyed Right Eye's settlement to keep the plot moving. Of course he'll do the same if Redcloak gets too comfy.

[The Extinguisher]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

A goblin nation through invasion and oppression isn't really helping his cause any at all.

[Optimystik]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

A goblin nation through invasion and oppression isn't really helping his cause any at all.

True - I think the Giant is going out of his way to draw the despotic parallel, so we don't get too sympathetic with Redcloak.

Someone should remind him that slavery isn't "equality." He has no plans for the nation to become self-sufficient, instead wanting to convince neighboring countries to accept his need to oppress humans.

[Ancalagon]

Someone should remind him that slavery isn't "equality." He has no plans for the nation to become self-sufficient, instead wanting to convince neighboring countries to accept his need to oppress humans.

But luckily for the goblins, Redcloak is going to be out of their way quite fast so they can find their own way. That might or might not include a burning hate for humans - but it's totally their choice.

Redcloak has BUILD the country... and now it's good he leaves so the country is free from old weight, ready to find a way that works. Redcloak wants to build Goblin-Utopia yet does not realise he is the one who can start it, but not the one who can finish it. With him gone, things can only improve (unless GC gets raided or something).

[Ancalagon]

Things like this are exactly why I don't like Redcloak, even after reading SoD.

ESPECIALLY after reading SoD.

Before we read SoD we thought he'd just be some sort of head-minion. But in SoD we learned he's much more and much worse than just that.

[The Extinguisher]

Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me. :smallwink:

[Ancalagon]

Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me. :smallwink:

Nah... it's rather "how it's done right". :)

[Optimystik]

But luckily for the goblins, Redcloak is going to be out of their way quite fast so they can find their own way. That might or might not include a burning hate for humans - but it's totally their choice.

Is it? What reason do they have to stop the slavery in his absence? He is the mastermind behind their nation - for all they know, he has researched economically sound theories behind their current labor model, and deviating from the course would be disastrous.

No, the change has to come from the top - as "Shepherd of all the Goblin people," he has the biggest impact on his people's morality.


Also, handing out propoganda on the first day is a little over the top, if you ask me. :smallwink:

There was propaganda before the books, if you count statues. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html)

[Shhalahr Windrider]

On the other side, the Azurites are getting a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands.
Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

[Dr.Epic]

If I was an average Azurite right now, one who had never heard of the Sapphire Guard or the Gate to begin with, weather one who had managed somehow to escape alive, or was now a ghost whose dead body was being used as part of an undead army, or was now enslaved. I'd just have three words for Redcloak and his declaration of renaming my HOME.

"F', you, bastard!"

If the resistance can pick up on this, and use it to their advantage, they can have an all out slave riot on the goblin's hands.

I'm sorry, but is the purpose of this thread supposed to be Red Cloak's a jerk because we kind of already established that when he...

-killed the supposed hobgoblin leader to become leader of the hobgoblins
-allied himself with an evil sorcerer he would one day turn into a lich
-worshipped an evil god
-devoted his whole life to a plot that may unleash an entity that can slaughter gods and unmake reality
-conquered a nation
-imprisoned and enslaved innocent humans
-killed his brother
-forced hobgoblins to their death based on a childhood grudge
-...and several other acts of evil I probably forgot to mention.

[snafu]

Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

Exiles have a way of becoming permanent, once people get settled, once they have family that never knew the homeland. It's entirely possible that the Azurites will still be there in the Elflands a thousand years from now. How many songs of homesick nostalgia are sung in Irish bars across the globe by people who've never in their lives been near the place? How many centuries did people say to each other, 'Next year in Jerusalem!'

[Optimystik]

Since when?

They’re in exile, not re-settling.

I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.

What did his comments say?

[hamishspence]

Its spoken of as "most damning of all" in a sentence about Azure City being a city that "failed to live up to its ideals". Miko, Shojo, and the Azurite nobility's willingness to abandon their people are all cited- but the behaviour of the Saphhire Guard toward "goblins and other humanoids" is considered the worst.

That said, in DsTP commentaries, it does say that they have paid in full for what they've done, and that the Azurites are still the "good guys" at the start of the commentary on O-chul.

[Optimystik]

Exactly - they have paid in full for their crimes by losing their city. Thus, the ongoing slavery has no moral justification, yet it is clear that Redcloak has no intention of stopping it.

[Ancalagon]

Is it? What reason do they have to stop the slavery in his absence? He is the mastermind behind their nation - for all they know, he has researched economically sound theories behind their current labor model, and deviating from the course would be disastrous.

No, the change has to come from the top - as "Shepherd of all the Goblin people," he has the biggest impact on his people's morality.

I think it is. Right now, Redcloak is a dictator, what he says is what is done. He set the policy. Redcloak gives the direction and everyone follows. He is the "hero" who made it all happen AND the top cleric of the Dark One, as the Crimson Mantle shows.
These two things give him an authority that no other ruler can ever claim.

While I think that Redcloak is a good ruler (in the regard that he makes descisions on a day-to-day and strategic level that are good for the new nation) I also think that his basic personality is also reflected in his basic descisions - and that personality has some fantatic traits that cannot be goodfor in the nation in the long run.
We know from the history that Redcloak does not reflect certain attitudes of his and with him in power, the goblins can be strong but they will never be able to reach a state of "equalty with other nations".

Without Redcloak, the goblins will have to find new forms of government and even if there is a new dictator, he will never be able to claim the authority that Redcloak has and thus he can be, politically, fought if he becomes too extreme.

The goblins now will have to find "their place in the world" and that will require new attitudes and other abilities than those that helped Redcloak to achieve this starting position. Redcloak is the guy who started it but I doubt he can finish this development in a way that the goblins become more than "hostile and a potential threat to the others".

Please note that I talk about a rather global level of "equalty of nations" and that the abolishment of slavery or "individual equalty" is not necessarily included at the beginning (that can follow after a decade for five).
Gobbotopia under Redcloak will always be "Redcloak's Nation" - will all consequences Redcloak's personality calls for.

[hamishspence]

We''l have to wait and see- but I would not be entirly surprised if Redcloak kept the slavery simply so that, once the alliances were in place, the burden on the "average Azurites" could be relieved bit by bit, so that all the neighbours can think

"accepting Gobbotopia was the right decision- because it is getting better and better over time"

This may, however, be giving him too much credit.

[Optimystik]

Without Redcloak, the goblins will have to find new forms of government and even if there is a new dictator, he will never be able to claim the authority that Redcloak has and thus he can be, politically, fought if he becomes too extreme.

A true replacement for Redcloak won't happen until he is dead. As long as he lives, any ruler that runs things in his absence will be a regent. He will thus be using Redcloak's authority, which doesn't really change the situation.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Exiles have a way of becoming permanent, once people get settled, once they have family that never knew the homeland. It's entirely possible that the Azurites will still be there in the Elflands a thousand years from now.
And who among the Azurites never knew their homeland? At best, a handful of infants that don’t even have a concept of “homeland” yet.


I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.
And the city has been destroyed and run roughshod over.

In any case the point here isn’t that I think the Azurites must be successful. Who knows? it could get swallowed in a Snarl rift and make the whole point moot. The point here is that no one’s expressed any intention to establisth “a new kingdom for themselves near the Elflands.” They’re still fighting for their homeland

[SaintRidley]

And who among the Azurites never knew their homeland? At best, a handful of infants that don’t even have a concept of “homeland” yet.


Exactly. Once you have enough of the population born in the Elven lands and having never been to the homeland and (if the Azurites have not been returned to the homeland yet) old enough, odds are there will be quite a few who will not want to go back (in part since they can't go back to where they've never been) because their homeland is the Elven lands.

He was talking about a future point in time, not the Azurites right this second. Right this second there are none who wouldn't know their homeland.

[Ancalagon]

A true replacement for Redcloak won't happen until he is dead. As long as he lives, any ruler that runs things in his absence will be a regent. He will thus be using Redcloak's authority, which doesn't really change the situation.

Read Lord of the Rings? Even while the True King was away the regents of Gondor were quite able to deterime politcs.

If the "true ruler" is miles away for months, it really makes no practical difference if the regent or the real king rules. Whoever will be in charge when Redcloak is not able to rule himself (being away or dead) ... will be in charge.

If the cat is out of the house, the mice dance on the table. I'm just saying the mice might actually be productive, more productive than a hate-driven creature as Redcloak can ever be.

And I also doubt you could really rule and build a nation like Gobbotopia with a couple of sendings here and there whenever you find time.

Also, as I stated in another post: I find it very unlikely that Redcloak will actually survive the plot (and even if he does, he'll probably be very much changed from it).

[Conuly]

If the cat is out of the house, the mice dance on the table.

That's an interesting way to put it. Typically we say that when the cat's away the mice will play, because that rhymes.


Also, as I stated in another post: I find it very unlikely that Redcloak will actually survive the plot (and even if he does, he'll probably be very much changed from it).

Indeed. I can't think of how he'd make it out alive myself... although he still might have his happy ending if, in the end, the goal of his plan (goblins aren't being slaughtered wholesale) is realized.

[Optimystik]

Read Lord of the Rings? Even while the True King was away the regents of Gondor were quite able to deterime politcs.

If the "true ruler" is miles away for months, it really makes no practical difference if the regent or the real king rules. Whoever will be in charge when Redcloak is not able to rule himself (being away or dead) ... will be in charge.

If the cat is out of the house, the mice dance on the table. I'm just saying the mice might actually be productive, more productive than a hate-driven creature as Redcloak can ever be.

There's a key difference between Aragorn and Redcloak though - Nobody knew that Aragorn was even alive, much less where he was. To the rest of the world, he was simply "Longshanks."

For Redcloak, ruling in absentia will be much easier, because any steward he appoints will know that the state of the city can reach the Supreme Leader's ears as long as he's alive - and can even teleport back to the city at a moment's notice if needed.

So for his steward to think "We do things my way now" - wouldn't be very likely, however well-intentioned.

[Ancalagon]

For Redcloak, ruling in absentia will be much easier, because any steward he appoints will know that the state of the city can reach the Supreme Leader's ears as long as he's alive - and can even teleport back to the city at a moment's notice if needed.

I'd like to see how Redcloak explains that need to Xykon.

[Draconi Redfir]

:D same here(cept for reading sod:smalleek:)

^ what he said ^^

[Raging Gene Ray]

I don't think they'll be getting their blue city back. They may not deserve slavery, but they definitely deserved destruction, as per Rich's comments in War & XPs.

?!?!?!? I never read the commentaries in question, but "failed to live up to their ideals" doesn't sound anything like "they deserve destruction."

And what do Shojo, the Sapphire Guard and the nobility have to do with anything? Hobgoblins and undead were murdering soldiers and enslaving civilians who had little to no knowledge of what went on behind the curtain.

I loved it when O-Chul one-shotted Jirix, I loved it when he impaled Redcloak's eye, and I'll love it when he and the rest of Azure City reclaim what's theirs.

[Water-Smurf]

I loved it when O-Chul one-shotted Jirix, I loved it when he impaled Redcloak's eye, and I'll love it when he and the rest of Azure City reclaim what's theirs.

I take it that you haven't read SoD?

[Solara]

Without Redcloak, the goblins will have to find new forms of government and even if there is a new dictator, he will never be able to claim the authority that Redcloak has and thus he can be, politically, fought if he becomes too extreme.

The goblins now will have to find "their place in the world" and that will require new attitudes and other abilities than those that helped Redcloak to achieve this starting position.

This is assuming they're allowed to do all this. Who's to say Xykon won't want to bring a horde of disposable minions along when he's ready to leave for the next Gate? He's already uprooted a functioning goblin village, I'm sure he'd have no qualms about doing it on a larger scale - what remains to be seen is whether Redcloak has gained enough of a spine to refuse him this time.

[Raging Gene Ray]

I take it that you haven't read SoD?

No, I haven't. Maybe there is something in there that would make me support the hobgoblins slaughtering fleeing soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). Maybe every Azurite man, woman, and child is flawlessly portrayed as a goblin-hating monster who fully deserves to have their friends and family killed and their homes taken.

However, I've only read the main comic and I don't see Redcloak fighting against adversity or as an oppressed victim. I see him and his hobgoblin minions as eager attackers and have much more sympathy for nameless Azurite mooks like the girl in the fifth panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) than I'll ever have for any Gobbotopian.

Then again, from what I hear of SoD, Redcloak has reasons to think the same of Azure City.

[Solara]

No, I haven't. Maybe there is something in there that would make me support the hobgoblins slaughtering fleeing soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). Maybe every Azurite man, woman, and child is flawlessly portrayed as a goblin-hating monster who fully deserves to have their friends and family killed and their homes taken.

Well, let's just say that the paladins don't come off looking very good. Of course I would say that a sane person wouldn't try to lay the guilt of a few at the feet of every man, woman, and child in the city...though there are apparently plenty of people at this forum that would disagree with me.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Well, let's just say that the paladins don't come off looking very good.

I know that much. I've clicked on enough SoD spoilers that I shouldn't have.

[Conuly]

No, I haven't. Maybe there is something in there that would make me support the hobgoblins slaughtering fleeing soldiers. Maybe every Azurite man, woman, and child is flawlessly portrayed as a goblin-hating monster who fully deserves to have their friends and family killed and their homes taken.

Well, a soldier is a soldier. They signed up for it. Meanwhile, the paladins... well, if you've been clicking on spoilers as you say, you already know.

[slayerx]

Of course I would say that a sane person wouldn't try to lay the guilt of a few at the feet of every man, woman, and child in the city
And there in lines the difference between Justice and vengence... Justice seeks to punish those who have wronged you and to prevent them from wronging others... Revenge is done more for to just make you feel better and easily gets misdirected towards innocents who really had nothing to do with what happened to you; hell you could be punishing those who would have actually sympathized with your plight


Well, a soldier is a soldier. They signed up for it. Meanwhile, the paladins... well, if you've been clicking on spoilers as you say, you already know.

all but 4 of the paladins are dead, and i'd say there is a damn good chance that the high majority of the slaves are civilians

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I'd like to see how Redcloak explains that need to Xykon.
Well, then the trick is making sure the regent isn’t aware of Redcloak’s leash. :smallwink:

[The Extinguisher]

I take it that you haven't read SoD?

I have, and I still feel the same way.

SoD spoilers
Redcloack is making the same mistake the Sapphire Guard did when they slaughter the goblin village indiscriminately. Mistaken the whole for the few. The goblin village was slaughtered because the High Priest was there and he was a threat (as far as the SG knew) to the continued existence of reality.

Redcloak just invaded, conquered and occupied a city that is the homeland of those paladins, and is currently enslaving anyone who survived. But guess what, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single paladin among the slaves. The average Azurite hasn't even heard of the Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html).

Sure, the Sapphire Guard hasn't been the most... outstanding organization of late, but Redcloak isn't helping this cycle any.

[Water-Smurf]

I have, and I still feel the same way.

SoD spoilers
Redcloack is making the same mistake the Sapphire Guard did when they slaughter the goblin village indiscriminately. Mistaken the whole for the few. The goblin village was slaughtered because the High Priest was there and he was a threat (as far as the SG knew) to the continued existence of reality.

Redcloak just invaded, conquered and occupied a city that is the homeland of those paladins, and is currently enslaving anyone who survived. But guess what, I'm pretty sure there isn't a single paladin among the slaves. The average Azurite hasn't even heard of the Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html).

Sure, the Sapphire Guard hasn't been the most... outstanding organization of late, but Redcloak isn't helping this cycle any.



No, he's not, but...

...but he has a better excuse than any of the paladins. They slaughtered children because of a vague threat to the gates. He's just an angry teenager who's frozen in that mindset he had the day he saw his mother, uncle, master, brother, sister, and entire village destroyed (and his brother's eye gouged out, to top it off). Yes, he's perpetuating the cycle, but he has a better reason to hate humans and want to kill them than humans have to do the same to goblins. I bet the paladins wouldn't have slaughtered human children if the gods said the same vague threat was in a human village.

This doesn't make his actions okay, but it makes him sympathetic and I would be upset if the Azurites destroyed the little nation they've created without some sort of compromise.

[Optimystik]

?!?!?!? I never read the commentaries in question, but "failed to live up to their ideals" doesn't sound anything like "they deserve destruction."

And what do Shojo, the Sapphire Guard and the nobility have to do with anything? Hobgoblins and undead were murdering soldiers and enslaving civilians who had little to no knowledge of what went on behind the curtain.

I loved it when O-Chul one-shotted Jirix, I loved it when he impaled Redcloak's eye, and I'll love it when he and the rest of Azure City reclaim what's theirs.

"Enslaving civilians" is heinous - I will agree with you there.

"Murdering soldiers" however, is a misnomer - you cannot commit murder in open war, by definition. The soldiers knew they were coming, and stood to fight anyway.

They may not have known what their leadership was up to - but then, when they heard the goblins were coming, they should have asked some very pointed questions. After all, Hinjo cannot lie, not to his entire army.

And the Guard at least, deserved to be dismantled for what happened in SoD. The soldiers chose to stand in the way of that. It was their responsibility to know what they were signing up for, and why.

[hamishspence]

Technically you can- if you take soldiers prisoner, bind them, and kill them without even the pretense of a trial, this would generally be deemed murder.

However, I'm not sure if I saw either side doing that.

[TriForce]

a bit on a sidenote:


There's a key difference between Aragorn and Redcloak though - Nobody knew that Aragorn was even alive, much less where he was. To the rest of the world, he was simply "Longshanks."



longshanks? in english his name was strider, where did that longshanks come from?

[hamishspence]

Bill Ferny refers to him as "longshanks" but Ferny tends to be more obnoxious- maybe it's "Strider" from most, "longshanks" if they want to be insulting.

[Optimystik]

longshanks? in english his name was strider, where did that longshanks come from?

He was called "Longshanks" in Bree, in the books. (Was it by the innkeeper? I forget.)

And yes, hamish is right - I misspoke by saying "the rest of the world" there - Strider was the most widespread name.

[hamishspence]

"Stick-at-naught Strider" is another name Ferny uses.

Come to think of it, he had yet another name when he served in Gondor as a military captain for the previous Steward before Denethor.

I Have Many Names, indeed.

Still, in the Bree/Shire region, Strider was the default.

[The Extinguisher]

No, he's not, but...

...but he has a better excuse than any of the paladins. They slaughtered children because of a vague threat to the gates. He's just an angry teenager who's frozen in that mindset he had the day he saw his mother, uncle, master, brother, sister, and entire village destroyed (and his brother's eye gouged out, to top it off). Yes, he's perpetuating the cycle, but he has a better reason to hate humans and want to kill them than humans have to do the same to goblins. I bet the paladins wouldn't have slaughtered human children if the gods said the same vague threat was in a human village.

This doesn't make his actions okay, but it makes him sympathetic and I would be upset if the Azurites destroyed the little nation they've created without some sort of compromise.

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how revenge is a better reason then trying to stop the world from being destroyed.

[Optimystik]

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how revenge is a better reason then trying to stop the world from being destroyed.

The problem with the paladins - only the Mantle-bearer had anything to do with "destroying the world" - not the women and children.

But restraint on the part of the paladins wouldn't have made as good a story. We are creatures of spectacle, after all.

[Asta Kask]

This is assuming they're allowed to do all this. Who's to say Xykon won't want to bring a horde of disposable minions along when he's ready to leave for the next Gate? He's already uprooted a functioning goblin village, I'm sure he'd have no qualms about doing it on a larger scale - what remains to be seen is whether Redcloak has gained enough of a spine to refuse him this time.

Logistics. If he wants to teleport, he can't bring that many out.

[Optimystik]

Logistics. If he wants to teleport, he can't bring that many out.

He can bring a pile of them if he makes multiple trips.

(Or he could use Wish, though I don't think he knows it :smalltongue:)

[Green&Submarine]

Personally, I'm still trying to figure out how revenge is a better reason then trying to stop the world from being destroyed.

Right Eye brings up the same point in SoD, Red Cloak's reply was:

even if the plan fails and the accidentally destroy the world, when the world is recreated, the Dark One will be there from the start and will, in theory, make sure that Goblinoids are put on equal footing with the other sentient races.

I'm not saying Red Cloak is right, but he has his reasons for doing thing, regardless of how they've been twisted by his hatred.

[hamishspence]

Its possible that now Gobbotopia has been established, Redcloak will be decidedly less relaxed about the notion of the Snarl escaping.

This may be why he's gone to so much effort to ensure the neighbours will accept, or at least tolerate, it-

because he suspects The Plan may fail, and if it does, he'll side with the heroes rather than see the Snarl run riot, in the hope of ensuring, whatever else happens, Gobbotopia will remain.

I don't know how likely this is, though.

[The Extinguisher]

The problem with the paladins - only the Mantle-bearer had anything to do with "destroying the world" - not the women and children.

But restraint on the part of the paladins wouldn't have made as good a story. We are creatures of spectacle, after all.

I'm not going to defend the paladins actions here. I just feel that slaughter of a village to stop the end of the world (as the paladins saw it) is just a little bit better then invading and oppressing a country for revenge.

[Optimystik]

I'm not going to defend the paladins actions here. I just feel that slaughter of a village to stop the end of the world (as the paladins saw it) is just a little bit better then invading and oppressing a country for revenge.

"Invading and oppressing" - I agree with you.

But if it had been simply "invading" - it would not be as clear-cut for the Azurites.


because he suspects The Plan may fail, and if it does, he'll side with the heroes rather than see the Snarl run riot, in the hope of ensuring, whatever else happens, Gobbotopia will remain.

I don't know how likely this is, though.

I'm not quite so convinced. Even if the Snarl gets out and obliterates everything (including Gobbotopia) then the Dark One will still be around to join in creating World 3.0.

Redcloak doesn't have strong enough ties to his fledgling city yet. Something needs to come up - something big enough to make him even risk defying Xykon, and siding with the Order, in order for me to feel like Gobbotopia has a chance.

[The Extinguisher]

"Invading and oppressing" - I agree with you.

But if it had been simply "invading" - it would not be as clear-cut for the Azurites.


I don't know. People were rallying against V for taking disproportionate revenge, and yet this whole cycle of the Sapphire Guard and The Crimson Mantle is nothing but disproportionate revenge, that Redcloak is just as deeply involved in, and people seems to forget that.


You know, I'm starting to sense a major theme here.

[Alex Warlorn]

I'm not going to defend the paladins actions here. I just feel that slaughter of a village to stop the end of the world (as the paladins saw it) is just a little bit better then invading and oppressing a country for revenge.

In SoD: I've always felt there was more to the death of Redcloak's community, or it was really REALLY just an author screw up on the author's part.

"Hey! Let's burn up all our 'smite evil' attacks on these one hit dice elderly goblins even though we're about to go up against the most powerful goblin clerical magic user in the world!"

[hamishspence]

its probably a case of

"When small children are slaughtered "on screen" people vociferously condemn it, even if the slaughterer is a protagonist"

We saw V do this to black dragon "small children"- wyrmlings.

Those of us who read SoD saw the Sapphire Guard slaughter goblin small children.

By contrast, we've never seen Redcloak and the hobgoblin horde do this.

[Talyn]

Only thanks to Hinjo and the Azurite army doing a good enough job of holding the goblins back that the majority of the Azure citizens were able to evacuate.

And we do know that some children have been captured, enslaved, and fed to Xykon's pet monster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0549.html). Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Redcloak's new regime.

[Optimystik]

I don't know. People were rallying against V for taking disproportionate revenge, and yet this whole cycle of the Sapphire Guard and The Crimson Mantle is nothing but disproportionate revenge, that Redcloak is just as deeply involved in, and people seems to forget that.

But we ARE railing against Redcloak for disproportionate revenge. The difference between my viewpoint and yours, is that I consider the slavery to be the "disproportionate" part, rather than the invasion.

[Tyndmyr]

Slavery: It's better than wanton slaughter.

I'm not so sure this IS disproprtionate. Is it cruel/evil? Sure. But what exactly is proportionate for generations of slaughter?

[Optimystik]

Slavery: It's better than wanton slaughter.

I'm not so sure this IS disproprtionate. Is it cruel/evil? Sure. But what exactly is proportionate for generations of slaughter?

It is disproportionate, because the people they are enslaving now had nothing to do with their slaughter (and in fact, didn't even know about it.)

[Tyndmyr]

It is disproportionate, because the people they are enslaving now had nothing to do with their slaughter (and in fact, didn't even know about it.)

They were affiliated with the sapphire guard loosely. They paid for and supported them via taxes, and the sapphire guard was lawfully run by the government of those people. Those people likely, even if they did know about the slaughter of goblins, wouldn't have really cared.

Besides, it's not as if Redcloak and co are reasonably able to determine exactly who hates/kills goblins. Its a sea of people, all of whom probably hate goblins now.

[Optimystik]

They were affiliated with the sapphire guard loosely. They paid for and supported them via taxes, and the sapphire guard was lawfully run by the government of those people. Those people likely, even if they did know about the slaughter of goblins, wouldn't have really cared.

That's a judgment we simply can't make, because we don't know how they would have behaved if they knew. It certainly isn't a judgment we can punish them for.


Besides, it's not as if Redcloak and co are reasonably able to determine exactly who hates/kills goblins. Its a sea of people, all of whom probably hate goblins now.

Redcloak knows exactly who is to blame, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) and he already exacted punishment in full. Everything beyond that is onanism.

[Tyndmyr]

Oh, sure...he blames the paladins, because they were actually on the pointy end of the slaughter. However, he also blames pretty much all of humanity as well as the gods themselves for this. Redcloak has a lot of blame for non-goblins...

It may not be JUST, but it is proportionate. The humans, via the sapphire guard killed goblins willy nilly, many of whom had no responsibility for...anything. The goblins are merely returning the favor, and slavery is arguably slightly less bad than extermination.

[Optimystik]

I doubt the slaves would agree - especially since everything they do, cements their tormenters' grip on their land.

At least in Celestia they can rest.

Anyway, the "which is worse: slavery or slaughter?" argument is pretty moot in this case. The Azurite citizens deserve neither - they weren't responsible for goblin slaying before the war - they should either be released, or treated as proper prisoners of war, by Geneva.

[Tyndmyr]

The question of if it's deserved is very different from the question of if it's proportionate, which is the only bit I challenge.

Though how slavery fares in comparison to death is interesting in a world with Celestia. Unless of course, death leads to being used as undead, which seems quite possible. Probable, even.

[Optimystik]

Though how slavery fares in comparison to death is interesting in a world with Celestia. Unless of course, death leads to being used as undead, which seems quite possible. Probable, even.

The state of the corpse does not restrict the soul in any way. Roy was a bone golem for quite some time while he was in Celestia, and it didn't affect him.

The only difference is Corpse Creatures (aka the thing V created out of Mama), which require a very high level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/creategreaterundead.htm) - one that would be extremely impractical to hit every slave with.

So to answer your question: in a world with a clearly visible afterlife - yes, quick death is preferable to slavery (particularly since the slavery itself leads to slow and painful death. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html))

[KiwiImperator]

I cannot help but wonder, if the Azurite people could see the Sapphire Guard at its most callous now, would they be appalled, or, in light of present circumstance, would they only curse that they weren't more thorough?

[pendell]

Thinking about the humans in gobbotopia -- realistically, they're not citizens.
They were citizens of the previous regime. Nor can they be considered citizens until Redcloak is able to give them some kind of oath of allegiance which they could give and he could accept with a straight face.

Until that little problem is solved, every human in AC has to be considered a potential fifth columnist. So redcloak either has to A) keep them as 'wards' until such time as they can become citizens B) kick them out of the country or C) kill them all.

For that matter, in a world where zombies and wights do find slave labor, why is Redcloak keeping human slaves alive in the first place?

Possibly because -- he and other gobs have said as much in several strips -- they *are* Evil as described in the D&D handbook. Humiliating their enemies by keeping them as slaves. As I said, in a world with undead and golems there can be no economic basis for slavery of live creatures, can there?

So I don't think the slaves are about economics. It's about rubbing the humans' noses in their defeat and giving the goblins someone to feel superior to. A constant object lesson and reminder in the streets of their triumph over humanity.

As to the other nations -- why should *they* care if Redcloak keeps human slaves? I'll wager many of the human nations keep slaves themselves. They may even get into a slave trading agreement, of some kind.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Conuly]

Anyway, the "which is worse: slavery or slaughter?" argument is pretty moot in this case. The Azurite citizens deserve neither - they weren't responsible for goblin slaying before the war - they should either be released, or treated as proper prisoners of war, by Geneva.

Geneva? Where's that? Is that somewhere next to Japan, or something? I don't think the goblins have ever been to Geneva.

[Optimystik]

Geneva? Where's that? Is that somewhere next to Japan, or something? I don't think the goblins have ever been to Geneva.

Perhaps not, but their conventions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) are in the strip.

@ Brian: So far, the only slavers we've seen aren't human; though that may change.

[veti]

Is it? What reason do they have to stop the slavery in his absence? He is the mastermind behind their nation - for all they know, he has researched economically sound theories behind their current labor model, and deviating from the course would be disastrous.

Or to put it another way: the economy of Gobbotopia is based on slavery, like those of ancient Rome or Greece, or the old South of the USA. It's rare for such an economy to switch to another model voluntarily - usually it's a change that has to be imposed by force. Really, it depends how vital slaves are to the economy, i.e. whether they're a luxury item for rich goblins, or whether they're the whole productive basis of the place. We don't have enough data to answer that.


There was propaganda before the books, if you count statues. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0660.html)

Well, yes. Without propaganda you don't have a country, you just have a bunch of people who happen to live near each other. You need propaganda to make them think they've all got something in common, and take orders from the same source.

[Optimystik]

Or to put it another way: the economy of Gobbotopia is based on slavery, like those of ancient Rome or Greece, or the old South of the USA. It's rare for such an economy to switch to another model voluntarily - usually it's a change that has to be imposed by force. Really, it depends how vital slaves are to the economy, i.e. whether they're a luxury item for rich goblins, or whether they're the whole productive basis of the place. We don't have enough data to answer that.

However "vital" it may be, we know this much - if Redcloak told them to switch, they would. It's as simple as that. But he won't.

And the goblins would survive even without their slaves, because they were scraping together off subpar land long before he and Xykon came along.

I acknowledge - and avoid - the real-world portion of your point.


Well, yes. Without propaganda you don't have a country, you just have a bunch of people who happen to live near each other. You need propaganda to make them think they've all got something in common, and take orders from the same source.

Oh, I never said it didn't have a purpose. I was just pointing out that the books are a continuation, not a brand new initiative.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

For that matter, in a world where zombies and wights do find slave labor, why is Redcloak keeping human slaves alive in the first place?
Perhaps the small handful of casters capable of making the necessary conversions have better things to do than cast the same spell a few-thousand times over?

With a bit of effort, living slaves make more living slaves. To get zombies you need an appropriate source of corpses. Since most citizens likely want a proper burial, you’ll have to import the corpses somehow. Furthermore, you once again must take that mid-to-high-level spellcaster off whatever other important job they had in order to make the necessary conversions.

Transfer of the slaves could get tricky. Undead are loyal only to their creators. Living humans are ‘loyal’ to whoever has the whip. Yes, the undead could be issued an order along the lines of, “Obey Yar,” but things could break down after too many transfers. Especially for mindless undead, whos behavior would be filtered from the first order: “Master says to obey Yar, who says to obey Gor, who says to obey Nir, who says to obey…,” and that gets too complex for mindless minions.

Finally, I’m sure there are plenty of overseers who wouldn’t want to put up with the stink. At least you can hose down the humans and freshen the air for a little while.

[Solara]

In SoD: I've always felt there was more to the death of Redcloak's community, or it was really REALLY just an author screw up on the author's part.

"Hey! Let's burn up all our 'smite evil' attacks on these one hit dice elderly goblins even though we're about to go up against the most powerful goblin clerical magic user in the world!"

I've wondered about that too. I mean, there's still no avoiding the fact that goblin children were killed, but is everything that happened in that attack 100% objective fact, or is it told from Redcloak's point of view?

Even if the paladins had orders to wipe out the entire village, they're just so...bloodthirsty, in the way they go about it that it's just bizarre. We haven't seen a single other paladin that behaves like that, with the possible exception of Miko. They're even willing to try and negotiate with orcs.

[Kish]

I've wondered about that too. I mean, there's still no avoiding the fact that goblin children were killed, but is everything that happened in that attack 100% objective fact, or is it told from Redcloak's point of view?
We see what happens. The crayon parts, in both SoD and No Cure For the Paladin Blues, are related by a possibly-unreliable narrator...But the bits we actually see, we actually see, and I don't get how people question them.

[imp_fireball]

The trouble is that with so much sucess, the reasons for RC to follow the plan are reduced. So, i fear he will be sabbotaged by Xykon and his own God, in order for RC to go along the plan.

But Redcloak's got like a wisdom of 18, and it'd be outright stupid to not continue being loyal to Xykon. I'm sure he's well aware of Xykon's capabilities and how smart he can be.

High wisdom means you can plan for plans outside of the initial plans as well as do certain things even if it doesn't make sense at the time (you'd find a way to make it make sense, what with your creativity and all).



Even if the paladins had orders to wipe out the entire village, they're just so...bloodthirsty, in the way they go about it that it's just bizarre. We haven't seen a single other paladin that behaves like that, with the possible exception of Miko. They're even willing to try and negotiate with orcs.

Religious fervor does that to you. It makes you do 'blood thirsty' stuff that you consider 'good'.

From a point of realism, times change too. Different commanders have different policies. Of course, the 'constitutional law' and 'policy of honor' remains the same.

Also, it could be argued that negotiation with the orcs was done out of desperation. The paladins know when to call in their cards. They aren't so blood thirsty that they'll kill everything evil on sight - after their sole duty, which was not to 'smite evil' but to 'protect the throne with the portal' was a failure.

Also, there was a lot less paladins hanging around after Xykon murdered a whole bunch, so their influence on their own people could even be waning.

[Kish]

Also, it could be argued that negotiation with the orcs was done out of desperation. The paladins know when to call in their cards. They aren't so blood thirsty that they'll kill everything evil on sight - after their sole duty, which was not to 'smite evil' but to 'protect the throne with the portal' was a failure.

Also, there was a lot less paladins hanging around after Xykon murdered a whole bunch, so their influence on their own people could even be waning.
I think the problem here is viewing the paladins as a hive-mind.

Hinjo, a paladin, is now the actual ruler of Azure City, therefore "the paladins'" influence on their own people is greater now than it ever was in Shojo's time. However...

The one who ordered the assault on Redcloak's village? Not Hinjo, he wasn't even born yet.

The one who made a trading arrangement with the orcs? Hinjo. Whoever ordered the destruction of Redcloak's village--Soon, Shojo's father, Shojo, the leader of the small group of paladins who was actually there--is not the one who made the deal with the orcs, and, in fact, is likely at this point permanently without influence due to a lethal case of dead.

[Conuly]

Perhaps not, but their conventions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html) are in the strip.

@ Brian: So far, the only slavers we've seen aren't human; though that may change.

Hm. Nowhere in there does anybody suggest it'd be wrong to force Nale to work for them for no pay.

[Optimystik]

Hm. Nowhere in there does anybody suggest it'd be wrong to force Nale to work for them for no pay.

You know that's not the only one, right?

[Conuly]

Yes, but I thought it was the one we were discussing. I also don't think Geneva touches upon "Is it all right to turn POWs into undead" at all, so they might be safe there as well.

[Optimystik]

Yes, but I thought it was the one we were discussing. I also don't think Geneva touches upon "Is it all right to turn POWs into undead" at all, so they might be safe there as well.

Soul binding counts as torture in OotS - see SoD. Hence Haley's remark on it being "the Evil side of the street."

[KiwiImperator]

But the bits we actually see, we actually see, and I don't get how people question them.

It helps if it doesn't make any sense, even more so if we didn't get the entire picture. We see one panel of children being stabbed. Now I don't pretend to be an encyclopedia of knowledge regarding possible moral justifications for stabbing infants, but these were paladins. Every paladin that we have seen, even that psycho Miko, subscribes to a code of conduct and seems to have a hard on for explaining themselves out of convoluted moral situations. We're missing information here, and it's perfectly legitimate to wonder what that information is. Maybe it's not a good explanation, perhaps it hinges on technicality, but whatever it is, it's worthy of conjecture.

[hamishspence]

A bit more than one panel.

It begins with "Exterminate the rest and let us be done here"- after the high priest is dead.

It has Right Eye being chased by a paladin, his eye struck out, and the paladin moves in to finish him off.

Redlcloak saves him- and we see Redcloak's little sister stabbed dead.

[derfenrirwolv]

Try to view the red mantel as a nuclear device that can blow up the world AND your soul. Any goblin near the high priest could be carrying it, hence any goblin with, near, associated with the high priest needs to die. In standard D&D evilness is an inborn trait, in oots most folks have a choice.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

In standard D&D evilness is an inborn trait…
For those Monsters with “Always” qualifiers, yes. Goblins are qualified as “Usually neutral evil.” This means somewhere just over 50% of the standard D&D population subscribes to that alignment (Monster Manual, p. 305). That leaves a sizeable chunk of goblins to be Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral, Lawful Neutral, and even Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, and Lawful Good.

If alignment were always inborn, why would players of clerics and paladins ever worry about alignment change?

[hamishspence]

Nor is the Crimson Mantle anything like "a nuclear device that can destroy the world and your soul"- its a hotline to The Dark One, and so far that's mostly it- though it does protect the wearer from aging and a few other things.

Not just that, but they didn't treat it that way, either- they just walked away from it, leaving Redcloak to sneak in and retrieve it.

[Optimystik]

Nor is the Crimson Mantle anything like "a nuclear device that can destroy the world and your soul"- its a hotline to The Dark One, and so far that's mostly it- though it does protect the wearer from aging and a few other things.

I'm fairly certain donning it grants a level or two as well. Otherwise, his Smite power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain) wouldn't have been quite as... powerful.

[Alex Warlorn]

That's ANOTHER thing I really don't get. If their mission really was to take out the crimson mantle as a threat... WHY THE HECK DID THEY JUST LEAVE IT THERE-?!


Even if you killed every goblin there, the dark one could still lure another goblin there one way or another and try it on for size. If the mantle has some safety features to keep it from being handled by the unwanted and the unworthy: shouldn't they have build a fort around it-?! Or taken a scroll with them to blast a giant hole in the ground where it lay and then use a move earth scroll to bury it, then establish an outpost in the middle of nowhere over it that does it best to be just the place that send people like Miko to to get them out of everyone else's hair?

Or they could have just brought along or found a pole and/or really good stick and picked up it without handling or touching it, or brought a golem or unseen servant scroll along to handle the bloody thing and throw it onto a nice sphere of annihilation or buried it in the foundations of a random non-descript building if it's indestructible (unlikely since that wear and tear Redcloak's brother admitted wasn't just to make it look cool).

Either there's much MUCH more to this mass slaughter of freakin' non-combatants than meets the eye... or The Giant really REALLY screwed up when trying to show what it's like to be on the receiving end of an adventure's sword.

[Optimystik]

That's ANOTHER thing I really don't get. If their mission really was to take out the crimson mantle as a threat... WHY THE HECK DID THEY JUST LEAVE IT THERE-?!

Their mission was to take out the High Priest, actually. They might not even know what the Mantle actually does - they would see it as a badge of office, rather than a powerful goblin artifact.

There's also the chance that it can make itself hard to notice when not being worn. The One Ring did this I believe.

[Alex Warlorn]

Lawful Good doesn't equal Lawful Stupid. They'd realize something was up when he kept popping back up.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Lawful Good doesn't equal Lawful Stupid. They'd realize something was up when he kept popping back up.

But he didn't keep popping back up. For all we know, this was the first Goblin High-Priest that the Sapphire Guard was ordered to take out.

And even if it wasn't, one red cloak looks more or less the same as another. Say every blackguard they've slain wore a helmet that looked more or less the same as the helmet every other blackguard wore. Would they automatically assume that it's the same helmet and that it was what was making these enemies become blackguards?

As far as they're concerned, goblins wear red cloaks because they're high priests, not the other way around.

[Dr Happypills]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something, but I'm sort of disgusted by the morals at play here in calling this fair or proportionate. Speaking as a US citizen, if the Government sent some Black Ops guys to indiscriminately slaughter a town/village/whatever somewhere and 50 years later a survivor of that massacre gathered together an army and conquered us (or heck, just my county for sake of scale), slaughtering or enslaving everyone, I would not be OK with that.

I like to think of myself as a pretty fair minded guy, but there's nothing fair about that at all. The Goblins and Redcloak got an incredibly raw deal, but I just couldn't live with sacrifing my life, freedom and happiness, not to mention that of everyone elses to somehow make amends for something I had no knowledge of.

Did Rich really say that Azure City had to pay for its crimes in the commentary? The citizens had to pay for the acts commited by the Government, without their knowledge, by people that most of the citizens aren't even aware exist? That can't be right. The idea is horrifying.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Did Rich really say that Azure City had to pay for its crimes in the commentary? The citizens had to pay for the acts commited by the Government, without their knowledge, by people that most of the citizens aren't even aware exist? That can't be right. The idea is horrifying.

I agree...does someone have the exact quote in context?

EDIT: I do remember someone mentioning that he referred to O-Chul as "the embodiment of all that is good and right in Azure City," and he didn't say "you know, this is what this city deserves for those raids on goblin villages." No, he fed a hobgoblin mook to a shark and shish-kabobbed Redcloak's eye on the same improvised polearm as Jirix's heart.

[TheWerdna]

No, I haven't. Maybe there is something in there that would make me support the hobgoblins slaughtering fleeing soldiers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html). Maybe every Azurite man, woman, and child is flawlessly portrayed as a goblin-hating monster who fully deserves to have their friends and family killed and their homes taken.

However, I've only read the main comic and I don't see Redcloak fighting against adversity or as an oppressed victim. I see him and his hobgoblin minions as eager attackers and have much more sympathy for nameless Azurite mooks like the girl in the fifth panel here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html) than I'll ever have for any Gobbotopian.

Then again, from what I hear of SoD, Redcloak has reasons to think the same of Azure City.

What SoD shows is that neither side is really in the right. While Azure City is undoubtily the "good guys" as stated by Rich, the Goblins have been wronged.

I am in the wierd standpoint of being torn between being agaist Redcloak, or supporting him. Part of me feels sympathy while the other part was happy when he got stabbed in the eye by Ochul.

[Optimystik]

But he didn't keep popping back up. For all we know, this was the first Goblin High-Priest that the Sapphire Guard was ordered to take out.

I doubt he was the first, for two reasons:
A) Redcloak's mentor clearly expected the attack;
B) The first high priest (from the crayon story) died as leader of a warband to seize Lirian's Gate, not parked in a village somewhere.

That technicality aside, I think you are correct:


As far as they're concerned, goblins wear red cloaks because they're high priests, not the other way around.

I agree - the Azurites saw the cloak as a badge of office, nothing more. (It's tattered nature probably aided in that deception, and the Cloak itself may have ways of appearing innocuous.)

[Raging Gene Ray]

What SoD shows is that neither side is really in the right. While Azure City is undoubtily the "good guys" as stated by Rich, the Goblins have been wronged.


I'd be lying if I said I felt NO sympathy whatsoever for the goblins. But after seeing the soldiers of Azure City slaughtered...I definitely don't feel bad about the hobgoblins of Gobbotopia being killed. They willingly invaded, they already HAD a city, and they were mostly in it for the ol' ultraviolence ("Any leader who will let us invade a major city and kill it's inhabitants is okay in my book").

I want to find another group of goblins...a middle ground...some sort of mediator. And I want Redcloak to feel just as horrible as he truly is when he sees it.

[Alex Warlorn]

Too late, Right-Eye's settlement was that -exactly-, Right-Eye even managed to turn Redcloak around!

Then Xykon showed up with a tribe of ogers in tow; and made it clear they either part of his payroll or part of the death toll.

And in that time Redcloak got fixated on carrying out the plan to get the Dark One to blackmail the gods to get the respect and honor he feels they deserve (they deserve more then they've been getting, but I think Redcloak had idealized his own people after demonizing humans).... no matter how many corpses of non-goblin or otherwise are needed for the foundation of the new world.