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View Full Version : Paladin/Grey Guard/Blackguard [3.5]



Fortuna
2010-02-01, 12:39 AM
Is it possible to make a Paladin/Grey Guard/Blackguard viable right from 1-20? Preferably entering Blackguard at later levels (12+). Just curious.

Aneantir
2010-02-01, 12:43 AM
I've got an old build for this guy as a recurring NPC in one of my games. Me and my Co-DM refer to him as the Fade-To-Blackadin. I'll see if I can find his sheet once Myth-weavers goes back up.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-01, 12:47 AM
If you're headed to Blackguard, you basically need 11 Paladin levels, so you don't waste much by falling. Also, there's the Shadowbane Inquisitor in...CAdv, IIRC, that runs along the same lines of the Grey Guard, but seems set up for falling to Black.

Runestar
2010-02-01, 12:51 AM
I don't think even gray guard can justify you acting in a CE fashion...

Kylarra
2010-02-01, 01:33 AM
Yeah, I don't see how grey guard fits in there, since you still lose your powers when you drop to BG. Best to go 11 Paladin and then trade in to straight BG.

Draken
2010-02-01, 07:51 AM
I am away from my books but I think Gray Guard levels countas paladin levels for things like the Blackguard.

Even if it doesn't, well, not much of a stretch.

And it is, indeed, the fade-to-blackadin. Paladin (LG) > Gray Guard (LN) > Blackguard (LE).

You could just stick to Paladin 5/GG 5/BG 10. If gray Guard level stak with paladin levels you will gain all the benefits if you were just Paladin 10 before falling.

Optimystik
2010-02-01, 07:56 AM
Nitpick: The PrC is spelled Gray Guard.


I've got an old build for this guy as a recurring NPC in one of my games. Me and my Co-DM refer to him as the Fade-To-Blackadin. I'll see if I can find his sheet once Myth-weavers goes back up.

I really like that name. :smallbiggrin:


Yeah, I don't see how grey guard fits in there, since you still lose your powers when you drop to BG. Best to go 11 Paladin and then trade in to straight BG.

It's a flavor concept. Besides, Complete Scoundrel gives the green light: Gray Guard levels can indeed be "turned in" for BG levels. (CS pg. 42.)

In fact, it works out even better this way - you go from 5/10 casting of paladin spells, to full casting of BG spells.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-01, 09:30 AM
Nitpick: The PrC is spelled Gray Guard.

I'll take my Grey Guards and Incantators, thank you very much.

Person_Man
2010-02-01, 10:31 AM
Ideal progression is to go Paladin 11, then fall, becoming a Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10. Then retrain your Fallen Paladin level into somehthing else. This is very potent at that particular ECL. But beyond that ECL your spells stop progressing. So if you're playing in a game that goes above ECL 13ish, I'd skip it.

Gray Guard sucks. There's really no reason to play one except for roleplaying reasons. But in my opinion, you can start out as a Lawful Good anything, slowly slip into Evil alignment, and have an equally interesting roleplaying experience.

Kris Strife
2010-02-01, 10:39 AM
And it is, indeed, the fade-to-blackadin. Paladin (LG) > Gray Guard (LN) > Blackguard (LE).

Gray Guard still has to remain LG though, you just get a code thats more of a regular LG character rather than Paladin level LG. You can still act just as good as a normal Paladin most of the time and only use the Gray Guard freedoms when its needed to protect people, which seems to be what the class concept was meant for.

Kylarra
2010-02-01, 10:42 AM
It's a flavor concept. Besides, Complete Scoundrel gives the green light: Gray Guard levels can indeed be "turned in" for BG levels. (CS pg. 42.)

In fact, it works out even better this way - you go from 5/10 casting of paladin spells, to full casting of BG spells.Huh, that's interesting. I'm AFB, but I'll have to look into that for my own amusements.

Mongoose87
2010-02-01, 11:21 AM
Ideal progression is to go Paladin 11, then fall, becoming a Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10. Then retrain your Fallen Paladin level into somehthing else. This is very potent at that particular ECL. But beyond that ECL your spells stop progressing. So if you're playing in a game that goes above ECL 13ish, I'd skip it.



I believe the ideal progression would be to be a Crusader, and just alter your fluff along the way.

Optimystik
2010-02-01, 11:49 AM
I'll take my Grey Guards and Incantators, thank you very much.

But who will be Malconjoiners? :smalltongue:


Ideal progression is to go Paladin 11, then fall, becoming a Fallen Paladin 1/Blackguard 10. Then retrain your Fallen Paladin level into somehthing else. This is very potent at that particular ECL. But beyond that ECL your spells stop progressing. So if you're playing in a game that goes above ECL 13ish, I'd skip it.

Gray Guard sucks. There's really no reason to play one except for roleplaying reasons. But in my opinion, you can start out as a Lawful Good anything, slowly slip into Evil alignment, and have an equally interesting roleplaying experience.

The biggest thing you get from it is going from "Smite Evil" to "Smite Any" at 9th level. I don't personally think it's worth giving up 5 caster levels, myself.

Clerics casting Atonement on you also don't have to spend XP, allowing you to Fall several times a week. Yay?

It is an interesting choice for an Exalted party though. Be a bastard, keep the Saint template...?

The capstone is very badly worded. It basically says "you don't have to be good, except you'd better be good or else!" They don't actually spell out what Gray Guards can do that normal Paladins can't.


I believe the ideal progression would be to be a Crusader, and just alter your fluff along the way.

Also, this.

Frosty
2010-02-01, 01:32 PM
Gray Guard sucks. There's really no reason to play one except for roleplaying reasons. But in my opinion, you can start out as a Lawful Good anything, slowly slip into Evil alignment, and have an equally interesting roleplaying experience.

Which is why people should use my fix instead :smallbiggrin:


HD: d10

Class Skills (4+Int mod per level): Bluff, Concentration, Disguise, Forgery,
Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (local) (nobility) (religion),
Perception, Ride, Sense Motive.

BAB: 1/1 progression
Saves: Good Fort, Bad Ref, Good Will

Lv Special Spellcasting
1st Sacrament of trust, lay on hands, Smite Evil 1/day --
2nd No Mercy +1 level Paladin
3rd Aura of Conviction +1 level Paladin
4th Smite evil 2/day +1 level Paladin
5th No Mercy +1 level Paladin
6th Aura of Trust +1 level Paladin
7th Smite evil 3/day +1 level Paladin
8th No Mercy +1 level Paladin
9th Aura of Sacrifice +1 level Paladin
10th Sacrament of the true faith, Justice Blade +1 level Paladin


Sacrament of trust: As default Gray Guard. See Complete Scoundrel.

Lay on Hands (Su): Levels of gray guard stack with other class levels that grant lay on hands to determine how many times the ability can be used per day, how much healing each use grants, the save DC for the No Mercy ability, and the damage dealt by the No Mercy ability. For example, an 8th level paladin/4th level gray guard has 6+CHA bonus uses of Lay of Hands per day and each usage heals 6d6 damage.

Smite Evil (Su): As Pathfinder Paladin Smite Evil. You gain an extra Smite attempt at levels 1, 4, and 7. Levels of other classes that grant the smite evil class feature stack for the purpose of determining the extra damage dealt.

No Mercy (Su): At 2nd level, and every three levels thereafter, a gray guard can select one No Mercy. When a gray guard first gains No Mercy, he has the option of using his lay on hands to damage not only undead creatures (which is the default lay on hands), but also to damage any creature. This deals 1d6 points of damage for every two effective paladin levels. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Each No Mercy adds an effect to the gray guard's lay on hands ability. Whenever the gray guard uses lay on hands to deal damage to a target, the target also receives the additional effects from all of the No Mercies possessed by the gray guard. The victim gets a separate Fortitude save for each status effect to avoid it, but not to mitigate the damage. The save DC is 10+1/2 effective Paladin level+Charisma Modifier. The effects last for one hour unless stated otherwise.

At 2nd level, the gray guard can select from the following initial No Mercies.

Fatigued: The target is Fatigued. Repeated applications do not stack (to Exhausted for example), but resets the duration.

Shaken: The target is Shaken. Repeated applications do not stack (to Panicked for example), but resets the duration.

Sickened: The target is Sickened.


At 5th level, a paladin adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Exhausted: The target is Exhausted. The gray guard must have the fatigue No Mercy before selecting this one.

Frightened: The target is Frightened for 1 minute. The gray guard must have the Shaken No Mercy before selecting this one.

Nauseated: The target is Nauseated for 1 round. The gray guard must have the Sickened mercy before selecting this mercy.


At 8th level, a gray guard adds the following mercies to the list of those that can be selected.

Confused: The target is Confused for 5 rounds.

Dazed: The target Dazed for 2 rounds.

Blinded: The target is Blinded for 1 minute.

Aura of Conviction (Su): At 3rd level, a gray guard is more empowered by his conviction to battle evil. Each failed attempt to hinder the gray guard only hastens the inevitable victory of the grey guard. Whenever an evil creature casts a spell at, uses a Spell-like-ability at, or uses a Supernatural ability against the gray guard and the gray guard succeeds on the saving throw (if the effect allows a save in the first place. This aura has no effect against abilities that do not allow saves), then the gray guard and each ally within 10 feet of him gains a +4 morale bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls against the evil creature. This bonus lasts for 3 rounds.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Trust (Su): At 6th level, a gray guard is has learned how to better adapt to the changing social situations that he undoubtedly finds himself in, given his unorthodox methods. Him and all allies within 10 ft (he gets to choose which people count as allies) gain a Sacred bonus to Bluff, Intimidate, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive equal to 1/2 of his class level (not character level), rounded down.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Sacrifice (Su): At 9th level, a gray guard has internalized the concept that sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice something smaller to achieve something bigger. Him and each ally within 10 fthas the option the option of, as a swift action, willingly take anywhere from 1 to 3 Constitution damage that can't be prevented or negated or mitigated. The next time the character casts a spell or uses some sort of special ability, the save DC (if applicable) is increased by the same amount as the Consitution damage taken. The bonus is lost if not used by the beginning of the character's next turn.

This ability functions only while the gray guard is conscious, not if he is unconscious or dead.

Sacrament of the True Faith: As default Gray Guard. See Complete Scoundrel.

Justice Blade (Su): As the pinnacle of gray guards, you have realized that suffering and injustice are not the exclusive province of evil. You can use your smite ability to punish creatures of any alignment.