So, how does our lovely new civilization fall?

[wellington]

Place your bets!

-

Collapse by Internal Strife: I'm not familiar with most of the races listed in that textbook, but it seems likely to me that at least some of them have some long-lived mutual enmity. Can anyone confirm/refute me on this?

ODDS: High, especially if we take into account historical parallels.

-

Collapse by External Force: Elves, probably. Curse them.

ODDS: Moderate, or high if combined with possibility 1.

-

Collapse by Plucky Rebels: Maybe?

ODDS: "Hello, Mr. Rebel, what do you think?" "Braaaaains..."

-

Collapse by Xykon: He just gets bored with it, or sees it as a threat to his authority.

ODDS: Low. Why would he care about a bunch of goblins?

-

Collapse by Economics: As it happens, most of the constituent groups are better at raiding farms than running them.

ODDS: Moderate - high in a more realistic setting, but as Elan would point out, it doesn't seem funny or dramatic enough at first sight.

-

Pyrrhic Victory: The movement grows so wide, dispersed, and powerful that everyone involved forgets what it stood for in the first place. There is no collapse, but the goblins do a better job of oppressing their poor than the humans did.

ODDS: Low, unless Redcloak gets assassinated. In that case, high.

-

Collapse by Snarl Destroying the World: This does solve the slavery issue, at least.

ODDS: Let's hope this is 'low,' unless there's something very nice and happy that we don't know about the Snarl.

-

Gobbotopia desn't collapse, outlives even Redcloak, and creates a glorious future of peace and understanding: ...

ODDS: ... okay, who let Redcloak have a vote?

-

Come on! What's it gonna be?

[Conuly]

ODDS: Low. Why would he care about a bunch of goblins?

He's literally out to take over the world here. In what way does it make sense to take over the whole world "except that little patch because it makes Redcloak happy to pretend they rule themselves".

Actually, what with Xykon getting Tsukiko's help in what's PROBABLY Reddy's half of the ritual, this might be the turning point for them. They both aren't nearly stupid enough to think that they'll get to the end without being backstabbed, but it looks like at least one of the two isn't even pretending they have compatible goals anymore.


Gobbotopia doesn't collapse, outlives even Redcloak, and creates a glorious future of peace and understanding: ...

Maybe if he hopes really, really hard, it'll happen!

[Taliesan]

None of the above

Redcloak rebels against Xykon in the relative near term - as can be noted by the fact that he still has the red cloak which Xykon told him to give to the other guy.

This leads to a period of internal strife, which the elves and slaves take advantage of but which doesn't lead to the collapse of the new civilisation as the goblins are too entrenched and are actually doing a better job at engaging in diplomacy with Goblintopia's neighbours than the Azure Guard did.

The open borders with other "evil" races results in rapid technological and philosophical growth - see the Roman Empire and America in its early years - while also leading to growing xenophobia and a resources crunch as criminal factions amongst the immigrants begin to build.

Eventually Goblintopia will extend its war with the elves and begin a period of conquest which though initially being based on valid grievances (Repeated attacks on the state) will extend into being simply about resources such as gold, food and slaves, and the propaganda value of having a constant enemy - Goblintopia has always been at war with Elvesia.

[factotum]

Redcloak rebels against Xykon in the relative near term - as can be noted by the fact that he still has the red cloak which Xykon told him to give to the other guy.


Xykon never said anything of the kind. He said that if Redcloak ever regrew his eye then he'd kill him and give his cloak to Jirix (only he put it in slightly cruder terms than that).

[Taliesan]

factotum

My bad. Still I think that the civilisation will last, just as a sort of parody 1984.

[derfenrirwolv]

Collapse explosion by Xykon.

Its what happened to the last goblin civilization that was founded, albiet on a smaller scale.

[Kzickas]

I think it's going to last actually

[FabuVinny]

Redcloak has dedicated the past year to securing the sustainability of his goblin state so I hope it has some lasting power.

The biggest threat is the surviving Azurite forces but they've settled down on the other side of the ocean and Hinjo is making the remaining gates his priority.

There's not much story potential in rehashing the battle either. Besides, huge invasion in an attempt to control their gate aside, there's some sympathy with Redcloak's cause that was brought about as a direct result of Azure's leaders. Redcloak might not live to see it but the goblins might be allowed to keep this one victory.

[Errandir]

I don't know... a whole nation of goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, gnolls, and other monsters? Is anyone else expecting a reaction like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html)?

That would be Collapse by External Insurgence of Adventurers, I guess. :smalltongue:

[SurvivorX]

None.

Xykon, Tsukiko and Redcloak finally locate the phylactery teleport out, and the new goblin nation falls into discord without a single strong leader like Redcloak.

I mean, Redcloak can't honestly think that someone like Jirix or the like could hold a massive nation like this together, can he? A nation, I might add, full of Evil creatures, a growing number of them being Chaotic Evil?

[slayerx]

I gonna say a combination of Xykon, Economic strife, Rebels and Elven insurgents... with the glorious return of hinjo to deal the final blow

Xykon, i'm guessing will drag the most powerful and most useful hobgoblins away with him... this will leave the city full of low level fighters, with poor leaders, and few clerics/casters... this weakens the leadership and the military... This makes way for the Rebels and Elvan insurgents who start making some leeway in the resistance movement, due to the lack of high level villains and casters... at the same time the city will start suffering economically; turns out the leaders the Xykon didn't drag with him were not able to handle themselves well when it came to international relations; these were guys who were probably more used to looting and pillaging than actually dealing with people... All of these factors will help to slowly chip away at the nation, making them grow weaker and weaker as time goes on... and then one day Hinjo will return with the rebuilt Azurite army, supported by the elves and they will swoop in and deal the final crushing blow and bring an end to the goblin city

and all this could have been avoided had Redcloak just been willing to stay behind and continue to support his fledgling nation, instead of leaving to go gamble on a larger prize... but leaving such a duty would not be easy for him all things considered



Collapse by Internal Strife: I'm not familiar with most of the races listed in that textbook, but it seems likely to me that at least some of them have some long-lived mutual enmity. Can anyone confirm/refute me on this?

ODDS: High, especially if we take into account historical parallels.

Actually i'd say low... remember 93% of the population is made up of hobgoblins that get from the mountain forts way back when... they managed to get along back then so i see little reason for them to fall apart now... other factions are far to small to stir up any real trouble



Collapse by Xykon: He just gets bored with it, or sees it as a threat to his authority.

ODDS: Low-High. Why would he care about a bunch of goblins?

fixed it
really, it all depends on what kind of mood he's in that day



The biggest threat is the surviving Azurite forces but they've settled down on the other side of the ocean and Hinjo is making the remaining gates his priority.
Not really... The settlement they found is just temporary. Now that the citizens are safe, he can really start concentrating on rebuilding his forces. he's dedicating the sapphire guard to the gates, however he himself is prioritizing his people... And really, the elves finally agreeing to help Azure city, and the start of some real movement to rid the city of the hobgoblin threat, Hinjo is gonna want to rebuild his forces as fast as possible to send them off to back up the resistance

[Garion]

I think it's going to last actually

I agree with you

[KiwiImperator]

If we could get Belkar in here, he'd carve us up a mountain so massive that by the time he was halfway done he'd be able to punch out Tiamat for letting that useless oracle curse him.

In lieu of apocalypse a'la Belkster, I'm betting on elves.

[Raw_fishFood]

There's always the possibility of the other nations, even those acknowledging it, will lead to its demise. I mean they just moved in and conquered the place and are getting settled in. There is a real good chance of them wanting to expand their sphere of influence, and they've already proven that they are willing to do so by force. I would imagine even though these places are making diplomatic and economic ties with Gobbotopia they are also increasing their own militaries in case Gobbotopia decides to increase its borders, at the least.

[Kish]

I'm betting on Xykon.

I wish I wasn't, but I am. He'll never let Redcloak forget the lesson he taught him in SoD.

[Kzickas]

Not really... The settlement they found is just temporary

Sure, but it's not unusual for temporary solutions to turn permanent

[TriForce]

it is going to last.... who knows, in the last comic of the OOTS, riich will give us a picture of hobgoblins and humans with blue cloacks living side by side (no not really, but hey i think it would be funny:P)

[Optimystik]

Xykon is my bet as well, with an added twist:

A remnant of a remnant shall be saved, to be led by Right-Eye's daughter - their "Supreme Leader's" only living relative.

I'm not sure why the Internal Strife option has such a high probability. The goblinoids seem well aware of their status as global buttmonkey - what reason would they have to fight each other?

The minority races are too small in number to cause much trouble, even if they wanted to - and can easily be kept in line as many of the goblins have class levels.

[Sir_Elderberry]

SoD
Last time Xykon went looking for a gate, he found the largest possible goblin settlement and declared that there were two kinds of goblins "Those who work for me, and those whose internal organs are distressingly...external..."

Think about it. Redcloak just deprived Xykon of a massive army, and it's taken them an army for each gate so far. Xykon's going to be pissed.

[Kislath]

I think the end will be something very ironic and hilarious.

With pretty much all the monsters for hundreds of miles converging and settling in Gobbotopia, that puts a lots of evil eggs in one big basket.

For Redcloak to have gone to all this trouble only to see most of the last remnants of the goblins wiped out in one fell swoop by an unlikely catastrophe... well, that's the sort of thing that Elan would approve of as a bard with a knowledge of dramatic endings.

[MReav]

I made an Iron Avatarist Region of Dreams submission with my vision of Gobbotopia's downfall:

It involved internal strife with the goblinoids killing each other on racial lines, the world and the Dark One being destroyed, and Redcloak looking on helplessly... in his underwear.

[Pyron]

Gobbotopia desn't collapse, outlives even Redcloak, and creates a glorious future of peace and understanding:

This with an added twist. Gobbotopia will eventually allow humans and other traditional races. Over time (and through the system) they will achieve economic superiority over the goblins, twist the laws to their own ends and become the elite - thus reducing the goblin population to second class citizen within their own empire.

Okay.... it's a long shot. But, it would be rather ironic from Red Cloak's perspective.

[ScottishDragon]

Mitd eats alot of beans...end of gobbotopia.

[slayerx]

SoD
Last time Xykon went looking for a gate, he found the largest possible goblin settlement and declared that there were two kinds of goblins "Those who work for me, and those whose internal organs are distressingly...external..."

Think about it. Redcloak just deprived Xykon of a massive army, and it's taken them an army for each gate so far. Xykon's going to be pissed.

Well you have to remember, Xykon plans to teleport out...
He could use multiple teleports in one day to move them, but he probably won't take more than what he can teleport per day... so the vast majority will stay behind while only a select few will being coming with

unless he decides to build some ships and go the long way... which redcloak would not be happy about (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html) :smalltongue:

[Alex Warlorn]

This with an added twist. Gobbotopia will eventually allow humans and other traditional races. Over time (and through the system) they will achieve economic superiority over the goblins, twist the laws to their own ends and become the elite - thus reducing the goblin population to second class citizen within their own empire.

Okay.... it's a long shot. But, it would be rather ironic from Red Cloak's perspective.


Hey, sounds rather realistic to me. Personally I think that's happening in real life right now (I won't say where due to the taboos on this website).

[Kieran Cage]

I'm going to go with:

Something completely unexpected and perhaps a bit silly: Say, for example, the entire population succumbing to a virus brought on by a poisonous flumph, or a mass exodus to a nearby nation under the lure of free coffee.

ODDS: Well, given this comic's history, it wouldn't exactly be unprecedented. :smallwink:

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Pyrrhic Victory: The movement grows so wide, dispersed, and powerful that everyone involved forgets what it stood for in the first place. There is no collapse, but the goblins do a better job of oppressing their poor than the humans did.

Uh, I thought that was the reason Redcloak started the campaign in the first place.

[slayerx]

Sure, but it's not unusual for temporary solutions to turn permanent

I doubt it will... so long as the Azurites suffering under goblin control, Hinjo will fight to reclaim the city

And that in turn is what makes me think that the only real hope for the goblin nation is to free the human slaves... when it comes down to it, the primary reason that the resistance and Hinjo fight is for the sake of those that were left behind in azure city and enslaved... once those people are free, much of the incentive to take back the city will go with them... many citizens will be willing to start new lives in other cities and many others will be fine moving to the new settlement and staying there. Without the suffering poeple, reclaiming azure city comes down mostly to just territory, revenge, and destroying evil... but they have a new land to go to and there are plenty of other evil nations out there, so it really boils down to revenge... and the question becomes, how many lives they are willing to risk... there are plenty who will risk their lives to free slaves, but less that will risk it for revenge; there are those who might rather just accept their losses and be glad they are still alive, rather than risk even more lives for revenge

Yes, i doubt the azurites will just leave them be; paladins will want to rid the world of evil, and the citizens will just want revenge... they will habor a deep hatred... but with the slaves free and a new home waiting, they will not be quick to exact their revenge. It could be years before they make a real attempt to take back the city, which could be enough time for the goblins to really get things under control to properly fend for themselves and possibly even forge alliances that will aid them in time of war.

[Asta Kask]

Xykon destroys the city when he discovers Redcloak is more interested in playing "Civilization" than "Dungeon Fantasy".

[Ancalagon]

I don't think that. Xykon has no interest in the city and he probably does not have the patience to destroy an entire city, especially if he REALLY wants to leave after a year of doing nothing.

[Optimystik]

He has no interest in destroying a city... but he has every interest in keeping Redcloak under his bony thumb.

If doing so means crushing Redcloak's fledgling dream (and, incidentally, sacrificing hundreds of goblins), he will not hesitate.

[Mystic Muse]

Gobbotopia desn't collapse, outlives even Redcloak, and creates a glorious future of peace and understanding: ...

ODDS: ... okay, who let Redcloak have a vote?

-


That would be me!/extremely overdone dramatic voice.

This is what I'm hoping for, although I hope they get rid of the enslaved humans.

[Da'Shain]

Wouldn't actually require all that much patience from him, considering meteor swarm, cloudkill, lightning bolt ... probably a day's work at most would blast them all back to the stone age while he laughs from on high. Plus, I wouldn't put it past him to have researched Rain of Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/rainOfFire.htm) or some similar spell; if he can cast Superb Dispelling he can easily make the Spellcraft check for it, and it's exactly his type of spell.

... Wow, I actually hope that he does have this spell, because the idea of the final battle involving the Order having to face him while the land around them is being scorched to blackness and he cackles madly while cavorting around with his ring of Fire Immunity or w/e is just ... so ... cool. :smallbiggrin:

[Draconi Redfir]

i honestly hope this city stays standing. as a goblinoid player, i think its about time we get our own naition!

[ouras]

It may end up being something related to the massive rift hanging overhead, as well.

[Draconi Redfir]

nahh, thats just gunna become the Goblinoid equivilent of the sun. what did you think the purple star on the flag ment?



purple star: snarl/dark one.

green star: goblin
orange star: hobgoblin
brown star: bugbear

meaning: all goblinoids united under the power of the snarl and/or the dark one.

[Richard J.]

Personally, I think the state stays. I just don't see much value in it being wiped out story-wise and the Azurites would need a lot of prep time to even attempt a re-capture. Even with Elves helping, I just don't see them being successful before the series reaches a conclusion.

It's possible either the Snarl or Xykon do it in but I think Xykon would actually hesitate unless he thinks Tsukiko can replace Redcloak outright. Even with everything that's happened in the past, I think Redcloak would suffer either a full-blown mental breakdown if Gobo falls and he might go INSANE with rage if Xykon does it. Seeing a Goblinoid nation born was a big part of why he chose to side with Xykon to begin with.

The Snarl popping out and ripping everything around it to bits is probably the most likely destruction scenario but I don't think the Azurites would be in a position to re-claim the city afterward. So, again, I think Gobo stands.

[Dr.Epic]

You forgot :mitd: does something to screw it all up.

[Asta Kask]

The rift continues to grow and eats it.

[DavidBV]

The rift will destroy the city, or Xykon will. Basically, everything that RedCloak does will be tainted and eventually be screwed, because of his wrong choice of partnering with Xykon.

Xykon could do it out of boredom, nastiness or for didactic value, but I doubt he needs a goblin army anymore, as the two remaining gates would be best approached by teleport of himself + his most powerful minions.

[snafu]

Collapse by Economics: As it happens, most of the constituent groups are better at raiding farms than running them.

ODDS: Moderate - high in a more realistic setting, but as Elan would point out, it doesn't seem funny or dramatic enough at first sight.


When the Normans conquered England, they didn't bother running farms. They left that to the peasants, the same peasants who'd been there since time immemorial. They just put their own people in charge in each demesne, and extracted labour and taxes from the peasants in exchange for their... protection.

Feudalism is really just better organised raiding. The foolish raider plunders the village of all it has and burns it to the ground. The wise raider plunders the village of some of what it has, and leaves the rest and leaves the people alive, so he can come back and raid again next year. The enlightened raider calls himself lord of the manor, and collects a regular tithe.

If the goblin nation falls, I vote internal strife. Most likely over the succession when Redcloak dies.

[hamishspence]

yes- as Vetinari put it in Discworld "Taxation is merely a more sophisticated way of demanding money with menaces" :smallamused:

[Optimystik]

Though I'm leaning in favor of Redcloak's demise, I vote against a succession war. We have two strong candidates for his replacement:
Jirix, and Right-Eye's daughter

either of which could continue what he started, but with a whole lot less pointless evil.

Though Jirix was an ass himself, betting on O-Chul like he did.

[hamishspence]

It's worth remembering that Redcloak is described in DStP as unwilling to commit certain acts of pointless evil, in the commentary to the O-chul interrogation comics.

He won't murder helpless humans when it doesn't further his cause. Not exactly a rousing endorsement, but at least a point that he tries to avoid unnecessary evil acts.

[Ancalagon]

Jirix, and Right-Eye's daughter

Yet it'd be boring to add Jirkx in the way he was added including his resurrection for him to leave the story now. I would more assume that he'll stay around for some time.
Maybe he served his purpose, maybe he did not. I think it'd not be surprising if Xykon took him along - and in that case Redcloak should really worry.

I bet you 10 (virtual) gp he'll come along. ;)

[Optimystik]

I was thinking more long-term - after the whole Gates business is wrapped up, I predict Redcloak will be dead - who will lead the goblins then?

Jirix coming along to the next Gate isn't actually a given, either - he is the best candidate to lead in Redcloak's absence. He literally gave his life to fight off "elven insurgents," thus cementing his dedication to Gobbotopia pretty firmly in the eyes of the populace.

He is also weaker in a stand-up fight, due to losing a level. What can he offer that Tsukiko and Redcloak can't?

Finally, he's also been sequestered with the Supreme Leader more than once, and has thereby learned the true perspective of their dream's volatility.

[Ancalagon]

I also thought long-term and that Redcloak might be able to come back once he left with Xykon did not even cross my mind (it really does not seem to be any possibility to me Redcloak could actually survive the plot). Sorry for that, I should have written that premise.

As we basically do not know any other goblin but Jirix or about the leadership-structure in Gobbotopia we have not enough data to decide who actually could be the next ruler.
All that seems certain is that the leadership-structure seems to consist mostly of clerics so it's likely the next leader is a cleric - or the clerics form some sort of council (which members are probably mostly clerics).

I bet there's an entire hierachy or political goblin-structure we don't know about so the argument WHO will be next is a bit moot.

As Jirix seems to be very close to Redcloak's position (maybe even second in command) I'd agree it's very likely he's involved in some way (unless he accompanies Team Evil when they leave).

Jirix' fight-power does not seem to be an issue at the moment. The current situation of GC is not decided by direct fights anymore (that might change in the future, but right now the situation is beyond that).

Yet, who or what kind of rulership is not that important to my arguement as I claim that Redcloak's absence is going to be a good thing for GC. He did his job and he did it very well (conquering, securing, and establishing contacts with other nations) but what follows is not the type of job someone like him can and should do. Just imagine if it came so far that he had to work to create an actuall alliance with a human-rules neighbour... that would be quite good for GC and the new nation but I really, really don't see Redcloak being able to take a step like that.

[Draconi Redfir]

Just to be clear, Jirix is the guy falling off the mammoth in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) comic right?

He died? Was that in a bonus strip from the books that I missed or what? haven’t seen him around much lately. (Please note that i only have origin of PC's, and the web comic)


Its possible nay, PROBIBLE that Redcloak will leave Jirix in charge of gobbotopia while he and Xylon go after the remaining gates, and after that he will return to gobbotopia, close the rift (assuming the whole "destroy the world so a better one with equal rights for goblinoids" plan doesn’t work) and then either produce one or two heirs, or take up an apprentice to take his place one he is gone.


Something tells me that this is something ALL the goblinoids want. a place were they will be safe, and not hunted down like rabbits from the humans, demi or otherwise.

[hamishspence]

Jirix is the hobgoblin standing beside Redcloak here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

And he dies here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html

[Draconi Redfir]

ahh ok, thanx.

[Kish]

Jirix is the hobgoblin standing beside Redcloak here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html

And he dies here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html
Also (DStP spoilers)
here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)

[Optimystik]

I also thought long-term and that Redcloak might be able to come back once he left with Xykon did not even cross my mind (it really does not seem to be any possibility to me Redcloak could actually survive the plot). Sorry for that, I should have written that premise.

Redcloak's death is not necessarily going to happen immediately after he leaves the city. There are two Gates left, he can easily come back to visit the city between excursions, all else being equal.


As we basically do not know any other goblin but Jirix or about the leadership-structure in Gobbotopia we have not enough data to decide who actually could be the next ruler.
All that seems certain is that the leadership-structure seems to consist mostly of clerics so it's likely the next leader is a cleric - or the clerics form some sort of council (which members are probably mostly clerics).

As far as we know, there is only one goblin that Redcloak has been confiding in. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html) As far as we know again, there is only one goblin that has been rubbing elbows with Team Evil leadership. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Finally, there is only one goblin that Xykon is willing to tolerate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) Redcloak would be a fool not to leverage these advantages.


I bet there's an entire hierachy or political goblin-structure we don't know about so the argument WHO will be next is a bit moot.

Whereas I'll bet that whoever Redcloak names as his regent will probably get the job. Care for a wager? 10gp, was it? :smallsmile:


Jirix' fight-power does not seem to be an issue at the moment. The current situation of GC is not decided by direct fights anymore (that might change in the future, but right now the situation is beyond that).

All the more reason for him to stay behind. His political strength - by being close to Redcloak, knowing the full story behind Xykon and the city, as well as the situation with the neighboring nations - will be far more useful to Gobbotopia than any number of spells.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.htmlYet, who or what kind of rulership is not that important to my arguement as I claim that Redcloak's absence is going to be a good thing for GC. He did his job and he did it very well (conquering, securing, and establishing contacts with other nations) but what follows is not the type of job someone like him can and should do. Just imagine if it came so far that he had to work to create an actuall alliance with a human-rules neighbour... that would be quite good for GC and the new nation but I really, really don't see Redcloak being able to take a step like that.

I agree that Redcloak should step down and let his people govern themselves, but I don't see any goblin deviating from his directives while he lives. Even when he won't there physically, he'll still be their Supreme Leader.

[Grimly Feendish]

After Xykon and team evil leave for the next gate.
The downfall of Gobbotopia will be a religious war with the orcs of the isles. RC or his successor will push the worship of the Dark One onto the other monster races and cause the followers of Giggles, god of slapstick (whose worship has spread to many other islands) to oppose him. They will ally with the Azurite exiles and push the goblinoids back to the hinterlands, leading to a great increase in the power and prestige of the mighty puppet god.
Of course, this could have many consequences.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Be kind of cool if we could like tie paypal into this or something :smallamused:

Then again, Giant could totally clean up under a pseudo account.

[Optimystik]

Be kind of cool if we could like tie paypal into this or something :smallamused:

Then again, Giant could totally clean up under a pseudo account.

I would, but I don't think they take gold pieces. :smallwink:

[Desmond Tiny]

I hope it lasts. Redcloak deserves it and Goblins do deserve a place in the world.

[Gift Jeraff]

Redcloak will never deserve anything until he makes up for KILLING HIS OWN DAMN BABY BROTHER FOR FRIGGIN' XYKON'S OWN SAFETY. His fellow goblinoids, however, probably deserve it.

[DoctorIllithid]

Well I certainly hope the nation doesn't get obliterated the second Team Evil leaves. But that's probably going to be the case.

[slayerx]

I do think Jirix was atleast originally being set up to lead the city after redcloak left... I assume that the power structure (as redcloak structured it) of the goblins would be based on the priest hood and ranks are determined by cloak color... Red being the high priest, followed by dark blue (jirix), light blue and then brown... Jirix's conversation with RC seemed to imply that he would be left behind with the city when Redclaok left. Though i'm not sure if that will remain the case as Xykon may want to keep jirix around

frankly i think that's a way Xykon could screw up RC plans; by insisting they take the best minions with them, the same one's RC was preparing to lead the city... kinda depends on how many Xykon can teleport


Redcloak's death is not necessarily going to happen immediately after he leaves the city. There are two Gates left, he can easily come back to visit the city between excursions, all else being equal.


No he won't, Xykon would not let him... Xykon does not want to waste time with unnecessary detours... Redcloak would have to come up with a good reason to return to Gobbotopia, before Xykon would let him, and i doubt "researching the next gate" would work again.

Only reason i can think of that Xykon would want to return is so they can pick up the hobgoblin army and march them north to the final gate... however, this would be bad for Goobtopia... Marching through 8 human nations would take a serious toll on the numbers of the hobgoblin army... furtharmore, since Xykon is not gonna let Redcloak take the time to settle down the hobbos, this will also mean that every city they conquer, including the capitol city itself will be left very poorly protected... Essentially, whatever they had conquered will be taken back right after they move on... Gobbotopia will fall due to spreading its forces out to far... so it's not in redcloak's best interests for him to convince Xykon to go back just so he can take the goblin army away from the city

[Optimystik]

Actually, he can go back on his own (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0655.html) if he really needs to.

I do agree though, he won't be likely to do that while travelling with Xykon.

However, he can still use Sending etc. to check in on his people, issue directives etc.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Collapse by O-CHUL!!! Seriously, nobody sticks hard, pointy metal into soft, squishy goblin leaders like that guy!

[mp122984]

Here's my bet:

Zombie Apocalypse: Wanting to one-up Redcloak, Tsukiko makes preparations to have her wights convert everyone once she, Xykon, and Redcloak leave.

[slayerx]

Zombie Apocalypse: Wanting to one-up Redcloak, Tsukiko makes preparations to have her wights convert everyone once she, Xykon, and Redcloak leave.

YES!
I mean, everyone keeps going on and on crying about the plight of the goblins, but won't anyone think of the undead? What did they ever do to deserve their shabby treatment in their non-lives? How many more must be turned before people care? Zombies are sorta like people too!

Yes, Tsukiko must go raise the first sovereign nation of the unliving!

[Draconi Redfir]

YES!
I mean, everyone keeps going on and on crying about the plight of the goblins, but won't anyone think of the undead? What did they ever do to deserve their shabby treatment in their non-lives? How many more must be turned before people care? Zombies are sorta like people too!

Yes, Tsukiko must go raise the first sovereign nation of the unliving!


IMO the canibalisum, inibility to grow, reproduce, lack of a pulse, and usual lack of inteligence dosent make them "pepole"

[HandofShadows]

IMO the canibalisum, inibility to grow, reproduce, lack of a pulse, and usual lack of inteligence dosent make them "pepole"

You know that. I know that. But Tsukiko refuses to belive that.

[Asta Kask]

IMO the canibalisum, inibility to grow, reproduce, lack of a pulse, and usual lack of inteligence dosent make them "pepole"

And would you tell psycho goth chick that? I mean, in person.

[Draconi Redfir]

And would you tell psycho goth chick that? I mean, in person.

Well according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) she things all living people are big fat jerks. she has obviously been around the wrong people. Maybe all she needs is the company of a nice, and genuinely caring human being like myself to change her mind. And if I’m still alive after all that, maybe I can show her some other undead army’s brutally murdering innocent women and children. Showing her that the undead she creates may be nice and friendly because she orders them to be, but other undead are savage killing machines.

And if after all THAT, im still alive... then I’ve either been blessed invulnerability by the gods, or im about to get lucky with a psycho Goth chick :smallbiggrin:

[Conuly]

And if after all THAT, im still alive... then I’ve either been blessed invulnerability by the gods, or im about to get lucky with a psycho Goth chick

Well, there's no accounting for taste. But if you really want to go there it's probably easier to just kill yourself now.

[Tyndmyr]

And if after all THAT, im still alive... im about to get lucky with a psycho Goth chick :smallbiggrin:

Oh, you don't need to be alive for that.

[pendell]

SoD spoiler question:


The reason Redcloak went on this whole Big Plan was to
give the goblins their 'fair shake' and liberation from the nonhumans,
right?

But .. hasn't he just achieved everything he'd wanted to achieve with the
big potentially world-destroying plan? Hasn't he got his new nation already?
What's the point in proceeding with the plan further? Why continue to follow
Xykon?

If the Dark One truly has nothing but the interest of his goblin people at heart .. then isn't it time to abort the plan and call it quits? If instead,
following this Plan results in the destruction of goblin civilization a second time (if you count Right-eye's encampment as the first) .. isn't it time for
Redcloak to start seriously doubting everything that's been revealed to him
by the artifact he wears? It could be that the Dark One's 'revelations' are nothing but a pack of lies from one end to the other.


Out of the spoilers now -- a fundamental theme of the comic is that the heroes -- and villains -- are undone by the thing they take most pride in.

Durkon's gate, protected by mighty magic, was destroyed by magic.
Lirian's gate -- protected by nature -- was destroyed by fire

Soon's gate -- defended by the unbreakable honor of a paladin -- was destroyed by the unreasoning zeal of all that is worst about paladins.

Girard's gate, protected by illusion and his distrust of fellow creatures, nearly wound up killing the gate's saviors through paranoia.

And so on.

I would say that this city and this nation somehow winds up crosswise to the great plan, and Redcloak winds up destroying the city 'to save the goblin people'


just as he once slew his brother


At some point, I wonder if he's going to realize that this great plan 'to help the goblin people' is causing a lot of real-life harm to flesh-and-blood -- well, ink-and-paper -- goblins and other races, while doing little good to anyone but Xykon and the Dark One. Is he ever going to be able to face the truth about himself and what he is doing? Or will he just drill deeper and deeper into willful self-delusion until there's nothing left of him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Optimystik]

SoD spoiler question:


The reason Redcloak went on this whole Big Plan was to
give the goblins their 'fair shake' and liberation from the nonhumans,
right?

But .. hasn't he just achieved everything he'd wanted to achieve with the
big potentially world-destroying plan? Hasn't he got his new nation already?
What's the point in proceeding with the plan further? Why continue to follow
Xykon?

If the Dark One truly has nothing but the interest of his goblin people at heart .. then isn't it time to abort the plan and call it quits? If instead,
following this Plan results in the destruction of goblin civilization a second time (if you count Right-eye's encampment as the first) .. isn't it time for
Redcloak to start seriously doubting everything that's been revealed to him
by the artifact he wears? It could be that the Dark One's 'revelations' are nothing but a pack of lies from one end to the other.


Those are all good questions; we really don't know what Redcloak's motivations are for continuing just yet. Though a big reason may simply be that Xykon won't let him settle down.

The question has not arisen yet, but Xykon will be almost certain to shoot it down once it does.


At some point, I wonder if he's going to realize that this great plan 'to help the goblin people' is causing a lot of real-life harm to flesh-and-blood -- well, ink-and-paper -- goblins and other races, while doing little good to anyone but Xykon and the Dark One. Is he ever going to be able to face the truth about himself and what he is doing? Or will he just drill deeper and deeper into willful self-delusion until there's nothing left of him?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

You've read SoD, so you know that
Redcloak's betrayal of Xykon is all but guaranteed, thanks to Chekhov's Charm -
so we can hope that Redcloak will have an epiphany at some point. The only real question is: will it come too late?

[slayerx]

IMO the canibalisum, inibility to grow, reproduce, lack of a pulse, and usual lack of inteligence dosent make them "pepole"
oh like that (http://api.ning.com/files/clkZYNRlWra4wyHsZzoiDGod0lOIjaHAtpEHkyY3HS8_/51HannibalLector.jpg) never applies (http://37prime.com/futurama_cartman.jpg) to the living (http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/extinstruct_files/image002.gif)

and undead do so reproduce... i mean just because they call it "spawning" doesn't mean they aren't "reproducing"
and maybe undead wouldn't enjoy your living flesh so much if you weren't trying to destroy them on sight (besides can it really be called cannibalism, i mean their not eating other zombies)... can they really be blamed for just trying to keep unliving?

So many people are willing to overlook the death and enslavement of humans to priase and give blessing to the new usually evil goblin nation, all because of one little goblin village massacre... but no one's willing to over look some flesh eating when their are plenty of graveyards out there being sanctified... there are plenty of undead just minding their own business when a bunch of "good" alligned adventurers break into THEIR dungeons and tomes and start turning them into dust

By the unholy gods, you "people" and your double standards
We can't all control how we born killed and what happens to our corpses... can't we all just give death a chance?


I would say that this city and this nation somehow winds up crosswise to the great plan, and Redcloak winds up destroying the city 'to save the goblin people'
That's actually what i'd like to see happen... in redcloak's pursuit of the plan and the bigger goal, he in some way or form sacrifices the chances for the goblin nation. It doesn't have to be direct; it just has to be clear that if he chose to end his journey here and now and dedicated his life to Gobbotopia, he could have lead them on the path he always wanted for them... but by leaving and pursuing the plan, he ends up setting the course for the nation's fall

frankly i would like the goblins to get their fair share... but i don't want it to be done by redcloak's hands and methods... i'd prefer a goblin nation that was not built upon the idea of "the ends justify the means"... or a usually evil aligned nation for that matter

[Draconi Redfir]

oh like that (http://api.ning.com/files/clkZYNRlWra4wyHsZzoiDGod0lOIjaHAtpEHkyY3HS8_/51HannibalLector.jpg) never applies (http://37prime.com/futurama_cartman.jpg) to the living (http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/extinstruct_files/image002.gif)

and undead do so reproduce... i mean just because they call it "spawning" doesn't mean they aren't "reproducing"
and maybe undead wouldn't enjoy your living flesh so much if you weren't trying to destroy them on sight (besides can it really be called cannibalism, i mean their not eating other zombies)... can they really be blamed for just trying to keep unliving?

So many people are willing to overlook the death and enslavement of humans to priase and give blessing to the new usually evil goblin nation, all because of one little goblin village massacre... but no one's willing to over look some flesh eating when their are plenty of graveyards out there being sanctified... there are plenty of undead just minding their own business when a bunch of "good" alligned adventurers break into THEIR dungeons and tomes and start turning them into dust

By the unholy gods, you "people" and your double standards
We can't all control how we born killed and what happens to our corpses... can't we all just give death a chance?


As a biologist in training, i know that in order for something to be "alive" it needs to:

1. Consume and require nutrients

2. Grow and mature

3. Be able to reproduce fertile offspring

4. Respond to multiple stimuli and react accordingly

5. Ultimately cease functioning in any way, and leave a corpse wich can then decompose.


While #5 may be applicable to undead, numbers 1 through 3 remain out of their grasp. They may consume nutrients, but they have no need for them. They do not grow, and while some undead (in the D&Dverse) may be able to pass on the state of undeath, those raised by that method are unable to spread it further. And even so, this is through the death of another, already existing organism. undead can in no way create new life from raw DNA as we living can.

And while some undead may respond to stimuli (sight, smell, touch, ETC) may are only able to respond to a few of them, and simply ignore the others.


Oh, and you know. The whole being DEAD factor exists as well.


and when was the last time a zombie walked up to someone and said "hi, my names bob. would you happen to know the way to the grocery store?" WITHOUT ripping them appart soon afterwords?

[hamishspence]

3, in particular, is not a requirement: mules, and other sterile creatures, are still alive.

[Kish]

WITHOUT ripping them appart soon afterwords?
:belkar: Now you're just being unreasonable.

[slayerx]

As a biologist in training, i know that in order for something to be "alive" it needs to:

We were not talking about being "alive" just being "people"
who the hell says you need to be alive to be "people"
I mean do all those who go up to the afterlife stop being treated as people? i don't see anyone trying to turn them

why so serious Gicko? :smalltongue:



and when was the last time a zombie walked up to someone and said "hi, my names bob. would you happen to know the way to the grocery store?" WITHOUT ripping them appart soon afterwords?
they are sure to be plenty of undead like that (http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=278)

Can you really blame those zombies for taking a preemptive strike against the living... all most of those living people do is kill them on sight... the unliving has been abused by the living for centuries... it's survival instinct to kill before those living people either shoot them with a crossbow or run away screaming to find someone to shoot them with a crossbow.

Frankly, most of this slander to the undead is propaganda of good aligned clerics. They would never want to except that they have a useless class feature and thus drum up hate against the undead so that they might get as much use of their turn undead ability.

much like the goblins they have been misunderstood and discriminated against, having so many of their kin turned to dust. Tsukiko should raise her own sovereign nation of the undead

[Draconi Redfir]

3, in particular, is not a requirement: mules, and other sterile creatures, are still alive.


fair enough. though they need fertile offspring to be concidered a spicies.



much like the goblins they have been misunderstood and discriminated against, having so many of their kin turned to dust. Tsukiko should raise her own sovereign nation of the undead

nahh. just go to northrend. i hear prince arthas has been looking for a lich queen ever since silvanus got away from him :P

[derfenrirwolv]

1. Consume and require nutrients

2. Grow and mature

3. Be able to reproduce fertile offspring

4. Respond to multiple stimuli and react accordingly

5. Ultimately cease functioning in any way, and leave a corpse wich can then decompose.


I specifically remember number 3 being listed as NOT a requirement for life on my ny state biology regents.

I mean, sure, having the titan trouser cut off may make it SEEM like you're dead and life is over, but its not actually the case.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Tsukiko should raise her own sovereign nation of the undead

Or kill off all of Gobbotopia with the help of Xykon and some other undead minions, turn them into undead, and co-rule a nation of Undead-Who-Are-Also-Goblinoids with Redcloak. Everybody wins!

[Fish]

Collapse by Snarl Destroying the World: This does solve the slavery issue, at least.
I'ma go with "collapse by Snarl destroying the city." There's a huge rift overhead, and all these tasty vict... er, goblins down below. The Snarl hasn't budged in a long time. Can you imagine how torn apart Redcloak would be if the Snarl reached out and carved up half the citizenry?

[snafu]

when was the last time a zombie walked up to someone and said "hi, my names bob.

... from the office down the hall.
Good to see you buddy, how've you been?
Things have been OK for me, except that I'm a zombie now.
... I really wish you'd let us in.

I think I speak for all of us when I say I understand
Why you folks might hesitate to submit to our demand
But here's an FYI:
You're all gonna die screaming

All we want to do is eat your brains! (http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2006/03/24/thing-a-week-26-re-your-brains/)

[Grimly Feendish]

I'ma go with "collapse by Snarl destroying the city." There's a huge rift overhead, and all these tasty vict... er, goblins down below. The Snarl hasn't budged in a long time. Can you imagine how torn apart Redcloak would be if the Snarl reached out and carved up half the citizenry?

The Snarl may no longer exist as there seems to be a world on the other side of the rifts now. Could be the first created world reformed, maybe Zeus and co are there.

[Draconi Redfir]

its possible the snarl isent the great beast we thought it was, and is insted something else.


perhaps the "snarl" is infact modern-day humans who waged war like it was breathing, and refused to worship the gods, effectively "killing" them?

oh, and check out my new sig plz! :P

[whitelaughter]

The goblinoids seem well aware of their status as global buttmonkey - what reason would they have to fight each other?

Simple: everyone there has survived this long by knowing the "outrunning the bear" rule: you don't need to outrun the adventurers, just your fellow goblins.

Xkyon won't return here, with no gate it bores him. So if he doesn't destroy it in the next few strips (quite possible) he won't. He *might* order the entire population to start marching so that he has an army on tap though, and that army is toast.

Azure city was built to protect the Gate, which no longer exists; the Azurites now have an abandoned elven city to live in; and Hinjo still has the hostility of the nobility to deal with. I doubt we will see an Azurite invasion. More likely repeated raids to free the enslaved humans.

Not adventurers. Remember O'chul's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0417.html) speech on the difference between war and adventuring?

Not internal rebels. Yes, Thanh is good value, but with no clerics capable of 3rd level spells, he's basically working with 1st level commoners. (Interestingly, this is simple denial of Redcloak's claims: a level of Humanoid is far better than a level of Commoner, so your average Humanoid is better off than your average Demihuman).

Internal collapse is high, possibly triggered by the power vaccuum with Redcloak leaving: but given Redcloak's complaint in SOD about the other races getting the "best" lands, I'm betting economic collapse: the goblins will just mismanage the lands into smoking ruins - similar to how North Africa was the Roman's grain bowl, and didn't become a desert wasteland until the Arab invaders turned up.

[stabbybelkar]

... from the office down the hall.
Good to see you buddy, how've you been?
Things have been OK for me, except that I'm a zombie now.
... I really wish you'd let us in.

I think I speak for all of us when I say I understand
Why you folks might hesitate to submit to our demand
But here's an FYI:
You're all gonna die screaming

All we want to do is eat your brains! (http://www.jonathancoulton.com/2006/03/24/thing-a-week-26-re-your-brains/)

Johnathan Coultran for the win!