Timeline issue.

[Wrecan]

In Comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), the deva's chart indicates that Roy died (and Azure City was invaded) in March 1184. The ticks pretty clearly denote months (there are twelves ticks per year) and the "present" is in between the third and fourth ticks, placing the date sometime in March.

In Comic 702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), Redcloak says in six weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Azure City (which means in five weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of Belkar's death prophecy). Based on the chart in 489, Comic 702 should be no earlier than mid-January 1185. And yet, the textbook says that Gobbotopia was founded in "late 1184".

So is the textbook wrong? Did the deva mess up?

[FabuVinny]

The Southern lands use a different calendar to the Northern lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html).

We can assume that the Oracle and Azure City operate under the Southern calendar while the deva sorting out Northern land deaths operates under the Northern calendar.

...Or at least I think that's how it works. I'm not sure. The references to the passage of time over the last few books can get confusing.

[Teddy]

In Comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), the deva's chart indicates that Roy died (and Azure City was invaded) in March 1184. The ticks pretty clearly denote months (there are twelves ticks per year) and the "present" is in between the third and fourth ticks, placing the date sometime in March.

In Comic 702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), Redcloak says in six weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Azure City (which means in five weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of Belkar's death prophecy). Based on the chart in 489, Comic 702 should be no earlier than mid-January 1185. And yet, the textbook says that Gobbotopia was founded in "late 1184".

So is the textbook wrong? Did the deva mess up?

If you study any recent chart showing economic growth or overall health or anything like this, you will see that they all end sometime aproximatly half a year ago, since it takes a lot of time to gather and compile the required information. The same could apply for the deva.

[Cizak]

Yeah, was gonna say that too. The chart doesn't have to end where Roy dies.

[hamishspence]

One of the DSTP bonus strips, a flashback to Belkar getting the Mark of Justice, immediately after Roy's resurrection, says "Eight months ago..."

How long did it take between that, and Azure City falling?

and how long has it been, between the end of DSTP, and now?

[SPoD]

So is the textbook wrong? Did the deva mess up?

Is the GIant specifically telling us in blunt terms how much time has passed as a way of overruling possible past inconsistencies in the timeline?

Yes.

It is the time that the current comic says it is. No more, no less. If there are previous comics that reference the time, consider them retconned to match the current comic and move on.

[Wrecan]

Okay. Let's examine the explanations given...

The Southern and Northern calendars differ.
This could work... except that why would differing calendars use the same year? In the Nothern calendar it is 1185, but for a few months, it's 1184 in the Southern calendar? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Deva's chart is out of date.
If that were true, it would mean that Roy died after March 1184. But based on Redcloak's textbook, if it is seven weeks before "late 1184", then Roy actually died in January 1184, or early February at the latest. (January 1184 makes sense, since Roy died a couple weeks after Azure City new year -- except this would mean that the Southern Calendar begins its year in January, while the Northern calendar is a few months (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html) earlier, in September or something.) At any rate, the deva's chart can't be out of date (though I suppose it could be prescient -- i.e., have information for the future based on divinations and the like -- that seems unlikely).

DSTP says 8 months between the Mark of Justice and Roy's resurrection.
There was about one week between the Mark of Justice and Roy dying. So this doesn't add much information and is consitent with what we already knew.

It's a contradiction. use the new date.
Awww. That's way too easy. :smalltongue:

[Wrecan]

In the end, I have to conclude that the deva's calendar is "imprecise". The best way to account for the gap is to assume about five months pass between Haley summoning Celia and the peace conference in which Thanh becomes leadership of the resistance.

(Kazumi is just entering her last month of pregnancy, by the by.)

[jindra34]

Why do you assume the goblin nation was founded the day Azure city fell and Roy died. For all we know the current date is the day when the goblin nation was offically founded.

[Wrecan]

Actually, I am assuming that the day of comic 702 is the day the nation of Gobbotopia is founded. I'm not sure why you think I'm saying it was founded any other day.

[zyphyr]

Okay. Let's examine the explanations given...

The Southern and Northern calendars differ.
This could work... except that why would differing calendars use the same year? In the Nothern calendar it is 1185, but for a few months, it's 1184 in the Southern calendar? That doesn't make a lot of sense.


It happened in the Real World in the middle ages, so why not in a fantasy world?

March 21st used to be the start of the new year. Yes, the 21st day of what we now consider the 3rd month. Different places changed to the current Jan 1st standard at different times. As such, during that 79 day period some places would think it was Year X and others would think it was still Year X-1.

[Forbiddenwar]

In Comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), the deva's chart indicates that Roy died (and Azure City was invaded) in March 1184. The ticks pretty clearly denote months (there are twelves ticks per year) and the "present" is in between the third and fourth ticks, placing the date sometime in March.

In Comic 702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), Redcloak says in six weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Azure City (which means in five weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of Belkar's death prophecy). Based on the chart in 489, Comic 702 should be no earlier than mid-January 1185. And yet, the textbook says that Gobbotopia was founded in "late 1184".

So is the textbook wrong? Did the deva mess up?

The invasion began in strip 300. And it took them a long time to get to Azure city and destroy it. There were several battles including the aftermath of a huge one shown in War and Xps.
And Gobbotopia was formed even before the trail, when Redcloak became the supreme leader. No I don't see a problem here.

[Katana_Geldar]

It happened in the Real World in the middle ages, so why not in a fantasy world?

March 21st used to be the start of the new year. Yes, the 21st day of what we now consider the 3rd month. Different places changed to the current Jan 1st standard at different times. As such, during that 79 day period some places would think it was Year X and others would think it was still Year X-1.

There are quite a few different calendars used today.

There's the Lunar calendar, used by the Chinese.
The Jews use a slightly different calendar, as do the Muslims and the Orthodox Greeks.

We use the Gregorian calendar, a revised version of the Julian calendar which is still used by some sects.

Take a look (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar#Currently_used_calendars)

[hamishspence]

If the invasion began in strip 300- and occurred at the same time as Roy was getting his sword fixed,

then 8 months had taken place between the invasion and the end of DsTP- since the bonus strip at the end, shows Belkar receiving the Mark "8 months ago"

So, 1 year minus 6 weeks, have gone by since Belkar received the mark- roughly 10.5 months.

So, 2.5 months have gone by since the end of DsTP- that's quite long.

That is, if Belkar received the mark almost immediately before strip 300.

[Wrecan]

The invasion began in strip 300.
I was imprecise. Redcloak actually says it's the one-year anniversary of the "conquest of Azure City". That would be the day the city was conquered, not the day they left the hobgoblin fortification to march to Azure City.


That is, if Belkar received the mark almost immediately before strip 300.
It would have happened somewhere between 293 and 294. But I'm not sure why the moment Belkar received his Mark is relevant.

[Wrecan]

It happened in the Real World in the middle ages, so why not in a fantasy world?
It's certainly possible. It just seems unnecessarily complicated.

[DarklingPerhaps]

I'm pretty sure it was founded earlier, not just at strip 702. Why else would so many nations recognize them if they had just founded and word hadn't even gotten out yet? That was more of a speech to let everyone else know what was going on, and probably to boost redcloak's ego a little.

[hamishspence]

I was imprecise. Redcloak actually says it's the one-year anniversary of the "conquest of Azure City". That would be the day the city was conquered, not the day they left the hobgoblin fortification to march to Azure City.


It would have happened somewhere between 293 and 294. But I'm not sure why the moment Belkar received his Mark is relevant.

It is relavent, because it gives us a marker for how much time has passed. If Roy's claim that Belkar only has X weeks left to live is correct, and X-1 weeks have passed, then we know to expect his death to be very close.

If it's "conquest day" rather than "invasion day" however, that makes for him having a bit more time left.

[Yendor]

In 287 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html), Celia says "Class doesn't resume until next week." That gives the Order about a week in Azure City before the southern new year, after which they visit the Oracle and Cliffport, taking about another week. The battle is two days after they arrive back in Azure City.

In 678 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0678.html) Blackwing says it's been only two days since V was at home, which makes it the day after the end of DStP.

[Joerg]

As long as we're talking about calendars: does someone have an idea about what happened ca. 1184 years ago?

It must have been significant enough to be used as a baseline both in the north and in the south, and even the goblins keep it. Perhaps the creation of world 2.0? But that seems somewhat short to me.

[hamishspence]

But not impossible, given the phrasing "A thousand years and more".

Since it has been rather less than 84 years since the Order of the Scribble began their quest, it can be correct.

Also- Sabine, when talking to Jeff in Paladin Blues bonus strip, says it has been two millennia since they last met- suggesting, if this is true, that she is much older than World 2.0.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also- Sabine, when talking to Jeff in Paladin Blues bonus strip, says it has been two millennia since they last met- suggesting, if this is true, that she is much older than World 2.0.

Well, apparently the Outer Planes were safe from the Snarl (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html). (As for why she and the rest of the IFCC didn't seem to know about it, it's possible they were lowly fiends at the time and/or were too caught up in the Blood War. Or it's just the rifts or Gates (or perhaps the possibility that their magic can be perverted) that are news to them.)

EDIT: Or they were born (or whatever) when the gods were hiding.

[Delvin Anaris]

In Comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), the deva's chart indicates that Roy died (and Azure City was invaded) in March 1184. The ticks pretty clearly denote months (there are twelves ticks per year) and the "present" is in between the third and fourth ticks, placing the date sometime in March.

Err...hang on. That's not what I see there.

The line denoting the present is about three ticks after the tick marked "1183".

Unless you know of a particular reason for the years to be marked at the end, instead of the start, I'd say that means that Roy died in March of 1183...

Dan Aris

[SaintRidley]

That line with Roy's face is, I believe, meant to indicate when Belkar started working for Roy. The little Belkar faces sit about three ticks after 1184 because it would be the present (and thus, present-projected without Roy for Belkar and present-reality for Belkar).

[Kome]

I'm willing to bet Gobbotopia wasn't founded on the day Azure City was conquered.

Early 1184 - Azure City falls and Roy dies and all that stuff.
Mid 1184 - Goblins are rebuilding the city to suit their needs/desires.
Late 1184 - City has been occupied long enough that it could rightfully be called Gobbotopia. What we're seeing now is just the official pronouncement of such, since the Supreme Leader is about to be leaving the country.

**EDIT** Alternate theory:
The goblins use the same textbook suppliers as Texas.

[hamishspence]

1184 was the new year- Belkar was Marked just before that, and a bit more than 8 months have passed since then.

This fits with the chart of Belkar's acts- showing a marked decrease since the beginning of 1184.

This would suggest it is "now" late 1184.

[Wrecan]

Err...hang on. That's not what I see there.

The line denoting the present is about three ticks after the tick marked "1183".

Unless you know of a particular reason for the years to be marked at the end, instead of the start, I'd say that means that Roy died in March of 1183...

Dan Aris

I was unclear. The chart ends at March 1184. The line at March 1183 seems to be where Roy first met Belkar, which would be from before comic 001, during the events shown in Order of the PCs.

[Boogastreehouse]

It happened in the Real World in the middle ages, so why not in a fantasy world?

It's certainly possible. It just seems unnecessarily complicated.


Unless it becomes a plot point. Belkar doesn't die when Roy thinks he's supposed to, because Roy is thinking of the Northern calendar, which changes over earlier. When Belkar kicks the bucket (or the skull that he uses to keep stuff in), everyone will be surprised, because they had thought that Belkar had managed to avoid his fate.

[Zeful]

In Comic 489 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), the deva's chart indicates that Roy died (and Azure City was invaded) in March 1184. The ticks pretty clearly denote months (there are twelves ticks per year) and the "present" is in between the third and fourth ticks, placing the date sometime in March.

In Comic 702 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0702.html), Redcloak says in six weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of the invasion of Azure City (which means in five weeks it will be the one-year anniversary of Belkar's death prophecy). Based on the chart in 489, Comic 702 should be no earlier than mid-January 1185. And yet, the textbook says that Gobbotopia was founded in "late 1184".

So is the textbook wrong? Did the deva mess up?

Neither: Gobotopia was most likely founded after it became clear that the goblinoids were going to hold it, which was likely weeks or months after the invasion was over.

[hamishspence]

If Belkar was marked in December 1183, then now, over 8 months later, should be "late 1184"

[warrl]

Okay. Let's examine the explanations given...

The Southern and Northern calendars differ.
This could work... except that why would differing calendars use the same year? In the Nothern calendar it is 1185, but for a few months, it's 1184 in the Southern calendar? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

Perhaps one part of the world is on the Gregorian calendar, another part on the Julian calendar.

The Gregorian and Julian calendars are closely related, but currently differ by 13 days. Different countries converted at different times due to a balancing of religious and pragmatic interests. The first countries to take up the Gregorian calendar, did so in 1582; the last country still using the Julian calendar gave up on it in 1923; I believe certain portions of the "Orthodox Christian" world still use the Julian calendar when determining the dates of their major religious observances.

[Dr.Epic]

The Southern lands use a different calendar to the Northern lands (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html).

Ditto. Also, how long ago did the Oracle tell Roy this? Didn't Roy say in one of the comics the amount of weeks Belkar has left to live.

[Captainocaptain]

According to the last time we saw roy talk about belkar's fate (slightly after being raised), the belkster has 7 weeks. assuming it took about 2 or so weeks with the desert and whatnot (based off of the info from the newer comics), he has about 5 weeks left.

[The Rose Dragon]

Perhaps the creation of world 2.0?

Precisely.

[Fish]

... he has about 5 weeks left.
No more than five weeks, perhaps. The Oracle didn't say Belkar would die "precisely at the end of the calendar year," but "before the end of the calendar year."