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AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 11:24 AM
(TLDR SUMMARY: How can a Barb6/ChampOfGwyn 1 beat a Fighter 4/Wiz 4 in single combat? See bottom for matchup details)

Before I continue to go on with this thread, I want to point out that I will be doing everything in my power to avoid the PVP situation that I feel will come about…it’s just that I have a feeling the issue will be forced.

Some folks may remember a thread I made about the fact that I was being asked to allow a player I did not want to have playing into my DnD 3.5 game. I chose not to let him play, in part because of his behavior in another DM’s game.

In this other game, I am a new player (just made a character for it) playing a Champion of Gwynharrawyf. This particular player is rolling with a Fighter 4/Wizard 4. He has already set himself up as an antagonist to my character (I wasn’t informed by the DM of exactly what kind of party this was and the majority of them are…less than good on the alignment scale, which is hard for my Exalted character to deal with…a quick DM chat revealed that he didn’t know what exaltedness entailed and so I’m now just playing him off as basic Chaotic Good-type). Asking to make a new character because of the obvious clash (nobody’s evil, but…nobody’s leaning towards good, either) was met with a bit of resistance, so I shrugged and started playing.

Within about two minutes of meeting one another, the Fighter/Wizard began antagonizing my character (whose actions up to that point had been to say hello and explain the burned in symbol of Gwynharrawyf on his shoulder), telling him he worshiped nothing worthwhile and that his faith was a joke, then calling him a weak stripling. When in response to something the character said (about ruthlessness, I think?) my character used detect evil, the Fighter/Wizard (after a successful spellcraft roll to identify it) leaned in and said “I’m not evil, boy…but I’m the closest you can get.”

So, this I can deal with, actually…it’s character joshing, and that’s fine. But it’s spilling out. Whenever I speak or roleplay, this player leans back in his seat and makes snoring noises. Note that I try very hard to keep my hammy tendencies in check and have talked to the other players to make sure I’m doing alright (they all think I’m just fine). He consistently cracks jokes about my sexual orientation (which isn’t a big deal, it’s just getting BORING) and other things of this nature. He did this as a DM and he appears to be doing it as a player, too. (As a side note, his antagonizing me is not a direct result of my restricting him from my game…he was told that my game was basically the late night game, which he won’t be playing in, and I didn’t even decide to not let him play till after this session.)

…Okay. So this is a really round-about way to say that this player has in the past used in-game attacks on PCs to deal with personal issues with other people. Sorry about the fol-de-rol. I will be attempting to talk to this person out of game first if things get REALLY bad, but what I’m looking for from the playgrounders is not advice on this…I can handle RL well enough…what I’m REALLY looking for is…

How does a Champion of Gwynharrawyf beat a fighter4/wizard4, if he pushes it to the point of PVP combat? I know his gear involves a bastard sword, shield, and enough armor to leave him with a 25% arcane spell failure chance, so he won’t be casting in battle…BUT, he also has a wand of hold person. I have a Mwork Greatsword, +1 Chainshirt, wacky gauntlets that add damage to crits (3 charges, 2d6 for one charge, 3d6 for two, 4d6 for three spent on a single hit), and nothing else particularly special. I’m built to take advantage of intimidate. I’m level 7, he’s level 8. I don’t know his spell selection, but in his own words, he “Doesn’t really cast spells in combat” and I’m sure that 25% failure chance has something to do with it. I do know he has a wand of hold person on him.

ADDITIONAL FACTS: I know this player fought another player in the campaign already, a pure fighter 8. He would have lost badly, but he used his wand of hold person. So he is pretty reliant on that wand, I’m willing to bet…

My stats:
16 str
16 dex (ioun stone)
15 con
11 Int
14 Wis
15 Cha

Feats: Knight of the Stars, Power Attack, Righteous Wrath, Imperious Command
Skill Tricks: Extreme Leap, Twisted Charge, Never Outnumbered

I’m assuming that I can rage and just beat him bloody into the floor with my increased strength and will save…level 4 wizardry doesn’t give access to the strongest of buffs, I mostly have to worry about his AC, which I bet will be rather high, negating my ability to power attack. However, I can also make him cower if my intimidate works on him, which will be quite the help…

Basically, I’m not sure what to do and could use some advice on fighting him. I don’t really want to lose if it comes to this, because he is a powergamer and I’d like him to eat some crow.

tahu88810
2010-02-01, 11:36 AM
You're a barbarian. You make a good ubercharger.

He is a fighter, he is, by default, not all that great. He is a wizard, but he isn't full casting because of those four levels he wasted on fighter.

Tear him to shreds. 'nuff said.


Edit: And, might I ask...this guy sounds like a jerk, why do people play with him?

Starbuck_II
2010-02-01, 11:37 AM
Disarm check/Sleight of Hand check? If you disarm him of his wand or steal his wand: he can't use it against you.

Quick note on Sleight of Hand: the spot check isn't a defense it just means they noticed. You only have to make a DC 15 check to succeed.

But I'd do disarm since I doubt you have SoH skill trained.

What exactly is he building toward? I know he can true Strike and flare without ASF but other than those he can't cast much.
He might have arcane Strike (sacrifice a spell slot for +X/d4 damage and +X to hit where X = spell slot level)


Why are you one level lower?

sofawall
2010-02-01, 11:37 AM
Sundering the wand could help.

Tavar
2010-02-01, 11:42 AM
The Will save on the wand should only be 14, so as long as you can rage you shouldn't be too bad, unless you get really unlucky.

You also have a much better build, from what I can see. Just Rage, fight with a Two Handed Weapon, and be in melee.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 11:50 AM
Edit: And, might I ask...this guy sounds like a jerk, why do people play with him?

They like him. He's nice to them generally. And honestly, he's not really a bad guy, objectively. Just something about me seems to set him off (possibly because I tend to be fairly quiet and non-assertive until pushed) and he finds me an easy target.

And yeah, I'm wondering about what he's trying to get to, build-wise, which is why I posted here...I'm worried about what tricks he might have up his sleeve. Arcane strike might be in there, I hadn't thought about that. Hrm...thanks for the heads up.

There's also a chance I can just take a peek at his character sheet at some point. Though that's just mildly evil of me.

EDIT: I'm one level lower because they tend to start new players off a level lower in their games.

Optimystik
2010-02-01, 11:53 AM
You only have one champ-level, so it won't help you much besides the Smite Evil. Rage and do that and he should crumple.

EDIT: When I came into this thread I thought it was about Maruts and Modrons having a cage match

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 11:54 AM
You only have one champ-level, so it won't help you much besides the Smite Evil. Rage and do that and he should crumple.

EDIT: When I came into this thread I thought it was about Maruts and Modrons having a cage match

To clarify: He's not evil. He's chaotic neutral. He's also seeking to become a shade for immortality.

Additionally, Maruts and Modrons having a cage match is awesome.

sofawall
2010-02-01, 11:54 AM
Hmm. Using a wand provokes, doesn't it? The whole Glaive+armour spikes should let you get close and stop him from using it, assuming you are capable of disarming and/or sundering.

Signmaker
2010-02-01, 11:55 AM
You're a barbarian, he's a half-wizard. Smash his magical gear so he becomes a 4th level fighter. Problem solved.

Optimystik
2010-02-01, 11:57 AM
To clarify: He's not evil. He's chaotic neutral. He's also seeking to become a shade for immortality.

If he attacks you for no reason, safe money says he'll be smite-able at that point.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 11:58 AM
If he attacks you for no reason, safe money says he'll be smite-able at that point.

Safe-money assumes that he won't bully the DM into not allowing that to happen. But good point and I'll make sure to point it out if this occurs.

Grommen
2010-02-01, 12:08 PM
Also a question as to why the party and the DM is letting this dude get away with it. That aside, you should not have much trouble beating the snot out of him. You can pick the best time to attack, lets say right after he makes that final leap into truly evilness, or your standing right next to him when he does something rude.

Only problem is that smoking this chump will not solve your problems. He'll get sympathy from the rest of the people and the DM, either get his character revived or make a new one up. In both cases the dude will be gunning for you from that point on.

So you either walk away from the game, or learn to take it in hopes that eventually this dude will wear out his welcome with the rest of the group, or gets bored picking on you and moves on.

tahu88810
2010-02-01, 12:11 PM
So you either walk away from the game, or learn to take it in hopes that eventually this dude will wear out his welcome with the rest of the group, or gets bored picking on you and moves on.

Or he rerolls as a druidzilla or wizard, and just slaughters every single one of this guy's incarnations.

frogspawner
2010-02-01, 12:15 PM
Don't sink to this player's level. Have a new character (or two!) handy, for if he kills your barbarian, so his actions won't keep you out of the game for any time at all. Don't keep any stuff that he could loot from you and buff himself and gloat with later (like that Ioun Stone, nice though it is). Sell it all and get items you can be reasonably confident of using up in any fight against him (like potions, or something anti-Hold Person).

Beat him by role-playing. Your character is good guy, get well-known and liked by the locals. Conspicuous donation to the church most favoured by the local authorities. Exalted tendencies - so t shouldn't be hard! Find that PC fighter he fought before (or his grieving relatives?) and make friends with them. Save the lives of your fellow adventurers. In character, behave impeccably towards this oaf. (How long will anyone play with him when they see it's him not his character that's obnoxious?)

If he kills you, do so again with the next character. If he acts the same and attacks, maybe this one will get him. Or the next. You have an infinite supply. Relax, stay cool. But if you ever win he will hate it... :smallsmile:

Aharon
2010-02-01, 12:18 PM
@Tavar:
Unless it's a non-standard wand, it's DC is only 13 - the wands in the SRD use the lowest level possible, in this case, Clr 2.

@AtwasAwamps
If at all reconcilable with your character concept, I would try to be the one who attacks. Although the save from the wand is rather beatable, there's still a 30% chance of failing it while raging - 25% if you use the luck bonus from Knight of the Stars.

That sounds quite ok, but if I were your opponent, I would start the fight in a situation where I could fire the wand multiple times - starting at least 130 feet away from you, preferably in an area with difficult terrain and moving back after each shot. As you can't run and squares count as 2 squares for movement, the fastest you could reach him with double movements would be in the 6th round.

Your chance of making 5 saves is only ~12,5%.

It's less if he gets you at a time when you're not already raging: your chance of making the save in the first round, while not raging, is only 45%, 50% with the luck bonus.

But if you choose the time and place of your engagement, the plans that were already outlined should do the trick.

As was mentioned, Ftr 4/Wiz 4 isn't optimal, but you said he optimized, so he probably has Practiced Spellcaster to get a CL of 8. When he has you paralyzed, he might choose to kill you via damaging spells such as scorching ray - the paralyzation wears off after a maximum of 3 rounds, after all.

Another poster suggested Arcane Strike, unless he uses something like Illumnian or another trick, he doesn't have the 3rd level spells required for it.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 12:20 PM
Don't sink to this player's level. Have a new character (or two!) handy, for if he kills your barbarian, so his actions won't keep you out of the game for any time at all. Don't keep any stuff that he could loot from you and buff himself and gloat with later (like that Ioun Stone, nice though it is). Sell it all and get items you can be reasonably confident of using up in any fight against him (like potions, or something anti-Hold Person).

Beat him by role-playing. Your character is good guy, get well-known and liked by the locals. Conspicuous donation to the church most favoured by the local authorities. Exalted tendencies - so t shouldn't be hard! Find that PC fighter he fought before (or his grieving relatives?) and make friends with them. Save the lives of your fellow adventurers. In character, behave impeccably towards this oaf. (How long will anyone play with him when they see it's him not his character that's obnoxious?)

If he kills you, do so again with the next character. If he acts the same and attacks, maybe this one will get him. Or the next. You have an infinite supply. Relax, stay cool. But if you ever win he will hate it... :smallsmile:

As a side note, this is exactly what I intend on doing. I just don't intend to LOSE if I'm attacked. I won't take the first swing, but when I do swing, I'm just hoping it's a doozy.




@AtwasAwamps
If at all reconcilable with your character concept, I would try to be the one who attacks. Although the save from the wand is rather beatable, there's still a 30% chance of failing it while raging - 25% if you use the luck bonus from Knight of the Stars.


Only if his character commits an atrocious act in front of mine, and even then, I will be doing my best to maintain party solidarity. I will NOT be the aggressor in this case. I understand that puts me at a disadvantage. It also makes me not the bad guy.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-01, 12:23 PM
So if he's friends with the DM, what are the odds that the DM will come down on his side against you and help rig the match/rules so that you lose?

If it's a fair fight, don't kill him. Leave him unconscious, then punish him by destroying all his equipment, preferably while he watches. Get him tied up, then wake him up and sunder each item he has one-by-one, including his spellbook and every spell component pouch he has. Melt down any money he's carrying, or throw it into a river/bottomless pit/donate to charity. Murder his familiar if he's got one. And all the while, give a 'To The Pain' speech about how if he doesn't stop screwing around with you, this will be considered merciful.

He's now paid a huge IC price for his dorkery, and maybe he'll get the message OOC too. If he complains, you can honestly say that you could have killed him, but played your Good alignment and spared his life. Intelligent players would know that the more merciful option at this point would be to kill him, but he won't.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-01, 12:25 PM
It's a wizard/fighter. It's a horrible build. You should be able to plaster him with no special preparation.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 12:28 PM
So if he's friends with the DM, what are the odds that the DM will come down on his side against you and help rig the match/rules so that you lose?

If it's a fair fight, don't kill him. Leave him unconscious, then punish him by destroying all his equipment, preferably while he watches. Get him tied up, then wake him up and sunder each item he has one-by-one, including his spellbook and every spell component pouch he has. Murder his familiar if he's got one. And all the while, give a 'To The Pain' speech about how if he doesn't stop screwing around with you, this will be considered merciful.

He's now paid a huge IC price for his dorkery, and maybe he'll get the message OOC too. If he complains, you can honestly say that you could have killed him, but played your Good alignment and spared his life.

I trust the DM...he's my friend too. He's known the other player longer, but he IS a good guy and a solid friend. The only issue is he might not be familiar with certain rules/rulings...which I am familiarizing myself with anyways.

And I have no intention of killing him unless forced to in some way. I do intend on sundering his spellbooks/pouches/etc. Not the wand. The wand I will give to the party sorc or favored soul.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 12:30 PM
Called shot to the balls.

The Glyphstone
2010-02-01, 12:30 PM
I trust the DM...he's my friend too. He's known the other player longer, but he IS a good guy and a solid friend. The only issue is he might not be familiar with certain rules/rulings...which I am familiarizing myself with anyways.

And I have no intention of killing him unless forced to in some way. I do intend on sundering his spellbooks/pouches/etc. Not the wand. The wand I will give to the party sorc or favored soul.

Then yeah, hand over his wand to a caster you trust, and utterly wreck every single other possession he owns - spellbook, pouches, sword, armor, shield, and any magical gear he has. Make it clear that messing with you has consequences, but do it in way that both leaves him an option to change how he's acting, and gives you an out if he whines about how mean you are. It's the nuclear option of PvP combat (even Disjunction still leaves nonmagical doodads behind), but he deserves it.

EDIT: Would either of the mentioned casters support you if he attacks you? Even just a +Wisdom buff or a save-boosting aid would make a big difference, since the only weapon he has to threaten you is that wand.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 12:42 PM
Then yeah, hand over his wand to a caster you trust, and utterly wreck every single other possession he owns - spellbook, pouches, sword, armor, shield, and any magical gear he has. Make it clear that messing with you has consequences, but do it in way that both leaves him an option to change how he's acting, and gives you an out if he whines about how mean you are. It's the nuclear option of PvP combat (even Disjunction still leaves nonmagical doodads behind), but he deserves it.

EDIT: Would either of the mentioned casters support you if he attacks you? Even just a +Wisdom buff or a save-boosting aid would make a big difference, since the only weapon he has to threaten you is that wand.

Favored Soul might, just because so far IC, my character's been very nice to me (and she is also fairly fond of me OOC). The Sorc might because IC he's vaguely the WizFighter's rival. But I'd prefer not to really rely on that. Still, it's a good point. This has basically boiled down to what I expected...that wand is my major threat.

Aharon
2010-02-01, 12:47 PM
Well, we don't know that - it's just the impression you created with your first post:


I know this player fought another player in the campaign already, a pure fighter 8. He would have lost badly, but he used his wand of hold person. So he is pretty reliant on that wand, I’m willing to bet…

We don't know how this battle would have gone if the fighter hadn't failed his save. As most posters said, Ftr4/Wiz4 is a pretty bad combination, but it might still be optimised.
It would be helpful to know what sourcebooks are allowed - the more options, the more likely he can build something worthwhile even with that combination.
Also, what method of stat generation was used? Your stats don't look like Point Buy, so this guy may win simply because he has very good stats.

And mind you, the way your first post sounds, (chaotic neutral, as close to evil as possible), you will not be buffed, and you will not rage. So you have a 40%-45% chance of losing to the wand - unless you acquire some allday save boosters like a cloak of resistance, or level up before the fight occurs. If your opponent is smart, he knows that his wand will be less and less useful, and force the fight on you before either happens.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 01:03 PM
Well, we don't know that - it's just the impression you created with your first post:



We don't know how this battle would have gone if the fighter hadn't failed his save. As most posters said, Ftr4/Wiz4 is a pretty bad combination, but it might still be optimised.
It would be helpful to know what sourcebooks are allowed - the more options, the more likely he can build something worthwhile even with that combination.
Also, what method of stat generation was used? Your stats don't look like Point Buy, so this guy may win simply because he has very good stats.

And mind you, the way your first post sounds, (chaotic neutral, as close to evil as possible), you will not be buffed, and you will not rage. So you have a 60% chance of losing to the wand - unless you acquire some allday save boosters like a cloak of resistance, or level up before the fight occurs. If your opponent is smart, he knows that his wand will be less and less useful, and force the fight on you before either happens.

I know my opponent THINKS he's smart. All books were allowed, so that's what I'm worried about. I'm not sure what a fighter 4/wizard 4 COULD DO, because the idea of splitting levels like that seems...silly, when all the possible options are available.

Stats were rolled. I know his current strength, with gear, is 22 (+5 gauntlets or something similar).

Unfortunately, that's thus far ALL I know. Note that only the f4/w4 said "I'm as close as possible"...the favored soul is NOT, the fighter is NOT (and bears a grudge)...the party plays itself neutral, but this guy is the one on the deep end.

Side note: I'm not sure why I wouldn't rage. Righteous Wrath transforms rage from "I will eat your heart!" to a righteous anger, something more along the lines of a divine fury, which would be perfectly in character for someone like my character to do under assault.

EDIT: The fight with the aforementioned Fighter PC was...bad for my current antagonist. It should be noted that the Fighter PC was played by the person with the most in-game experience and a player who is a closet optimizer. He doesn't reveal it, but he and I have chats about char-op fairly often. I'm not a genius and neither is he, but both of us are the only ones in the group who are REALLY familiar with the upper concepts...we just don't apply them for the sake of fairness.

This guy is...sort of the opposite. He's just not very GOOD at it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 01:06 PM
I know my opponent THINKS he's smart.

It is obvious by his class choice that he isn't. Wait until he sleeps, pour oil on him, and light him on fire. Bonus points if you catch his spellbook and other equipment on fire as well.

Aharon
2010-02-01, 01:10 PM
You won't rage because he will surprise you. Or is that below him? He takes his action to use the wand, you can only take the free action to rage on your own round.

Lysander
2010-02-01, 01:10 PM
Here's how you win in 1 on 1 combat: Don't make it 1 on 1 combat.

Pull another party member that you trust aside and secretly mention your doubts about the wiz/fighter. Tell them you're not going to start anything, but if he attacks you would like their aid. Offer to watch their back as well.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 01:11 PM
You won't rage because he will surprise you. Or is that below him? He takes his action to use the wand, you can only take the free action to rage on your own round.

Ohh, gotcha. Understood and good point.

Lysander: I'm hoping he leaves it long enough that my character can make an impression on the party...but if he doesn't, that's unlikely.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 01:17 PM
You have Imperious Command. What about stun-locking him with fear?

Ormagoden
2010-02-01, 01:20 PM
Called shot to the balls.

/agree
target the player
not the character

On a side note. If for whatever reason you die. I would say the following
"In light of my most recent character's death due to pvp and the likelyhood that with the current party mix it might happen again, would you mind if I started out at the same level as the party?"

Also please see this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple) and this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)

The latter I call the "I win" button.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 01:23 PM
Furthermore, is your character build finalized? Because I could help you build a character that will make him cry.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 01:26 PM
Furthermore, is your character build finalized? Because I could help you build a character that will make him cry.

Unfortunately, it is. If I do die, though, I'll most certainly come to you :)


You have Imperious Command. What about stun-locking him with fear?

Exactly how can I do this? I thought I could only cower him for one round?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 01:29 PM
You can make intimidate checks every round as a standard action. Fortunately, there's an armor that allows you to do so as a move action.

Coidzor
2010-02-01, 01:29 PM
It's sort of obvious from his alignment of "I'm really CN!" to play a blanket for his desire "I'm as evil as you're going to get"(as much a statement of the OOC nihilism of the player and the player's stance on how he's playing his character as an incomprehensible IC taunt) to play an evil character that he thinks he's smart by doing so.

If he really starts being an ass, then make it so that he can't get a restful night's sleep, without interfering with the other casters.

Or just take advantage of his need to sleep and that you and possibly someone else has to take watches to make sure nothing eats the squishies and the girly man.

Telonius
2010-02-01, 01:29 PM
How to beat him:

"Hey, I just found some awesome full plate, but I realized I don't have proficiency in it. But since you have levels in fighter, you can. If you'd like to wear it, you can have it... Oh, look at that. Guess I have a 35% chance to avoid any of your spells now. +6BAB, too, so you're not going to be hitting me as hard in melee, assuming you can catch me. By the way, you're moving at what speed? Oh, yeah, and if you do happen to catch me, you probably won't last as long; I've got an average of 20hp more than you do, even before I rage... don't want the fullplate? Okay, fine, I'll sell it instead. Hope your Dex score is good; that +2 base Reflex save means you're still just one tanglefoot bag (DC 15) away from being pretty ineffective."

The biggest thing you'd have to worry about from this guy is a Ray of Enfeeblement. Since he will still have a +6BAB, this can be dangerous. He'll be able to shoot off, at most, three of those (four if he's a specialist Necromancer). d6+2, so you're looking at 15 average STR damage if all of them hit. The key thing for you to do would be to charge him as soon as he throws the first one at you. At that low of a level, he's not going to have any kind of contingencies or other nifty tricks Wizards use to screw with melee'ers.

pffh
2010-02-01, 01:31 PM
Unfortunately, it is. If I do die, though, I'll most certainly come to you :)



Exactly how can I do this? I thought I could only cower him for one round?

Or so he can't complain if you use some outlandish way to beat him with the next character (if this one dies) just go either straight core wizard or druid. Most players that THINK they are good shut up when a core character crushes them (because as we all know core is balanced :smalltongue:)

Ormagoden
2010-02-01, 01:32 PM
Can we rename the thread inevitable beatdown!

I wonder...can you give us some more info atwas.

How much gold does your char have?
what are your weapons? gear?
Do you travel with a wagon or a cart that has big crates?

I mean honestly I'm against pvp for the most part but some people need to be "taught a lesson" sometimes.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 01:32 PM
Unfortunately, it is. If I do die, though, I'll most certainly come to you :)


Fill out form S-LO in triplicate, and be sure to specify how much humiliation you desire for the victim.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 01:36 PM
Gold is…minimal. I am not “technically” a full party member yet, so I don’t have access to party funds, either (they literally just met “me” last session, and they are mildly distrustful of a random newcomer…which is totally fine, really). I’ve got something like 250 gp.

Gear wise, once more: Mwork Greatsword, Ioun Stone (Dex +2), Chain Shirt +1, Crazy Gauntlets I don’t remember the name of (when I confirm a crit, I can spend charges to increase the damage: 1 charge = 2d6, 2=3d6, 3=4d6. 3 charges per day.)

I plan on pawning off the stone ASAP to pick up something decent or possibly use the funds to enchant my sword. Yes, I know this is un-ideal. Our DMs apparently don't like WBL...

Coidzor
2010-02-01, 01:37 PM
That said, you really need to stand up for yourself against his harassment and make sure your friends there have your back on that, more than anything in character.

I mean, does he constantly call the DM a raging homosexual even when it's not one of those odd times where you're actually playing the insult game.

For that matter, how the hell are they ok with homosexuality being used as an insult?

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 01:53 PM
I was in the middle of responding to something pharaoh said, but now its gone.

Don't be too hard on the rest of the crew. They try. They really do. But this guy has been their friend (and he has been a GOOD friend to them) for over a decade. He's had their back. I'm the new guy in the group and while I know they like me, I also know that friendships that go back that far leave a lot of room for letting things slide.

Like I said, objectively, he's a good guy. When it comes to me, he isn't ::shrug:: I won't do anything drastic unless I'm pushed. My inherent nature is aggressive, which I tamp down on purpose unless its needed.

What I do know is that if I tell him, flat-out, that he needs to back off, he won't. And I do know that at least two people in the group will be on my side. And I DO KNOW that I do not want to split these guys up on grounds of friendships, especially long-term ones like this.

Susano-wo
2010-02-01, 02:16 PM
This guy, just for the record, objectively, is not a nice person. He is consistently rude to you for no good reason. If your suspicion is correct that he picks on you because he perceives you as an easy target, then yeah, I'd venture to say he's not even a very good person.

About the fight, assuming you make your wand DC ('s) you should be fine. Also assuming that he hasn't tried to make the best Armor caster he can. IE taking things like blades of fire and the Transposition spells. Blades of Fire is Swift, and Trans. spells have no Somatic component.
Also relating to Transposition: does he have a flying familiar? If so, he can have the familiar fly somewhere hard to reach/far away and start BSing with the wand. (though it seems that he is basically considering his casting to be non-combat utility type stuff. THough thast could be a bluff in case people engage in PVP with him...)
Oh, also to note RE: the wand, does have to make spellcraft checks to use it since it is above his available spells, or is that just with scrolls?

Coidzor
2010-02-01, 02:36 PM
Don't be too hard on the rest of the crew. They try. They really do. But this guy has been their friend (and he has been a GOOD friend to them) for over a decade. He's had their back. I'm the new guy in the group and while I know they like me, I also know that friendships that go back that far leave a lot of room for letting things slide.

Like I said, objectively, he's a good guy. When it comes to me, he isn't ::shrug:: I won't do anything drastic unless I'm pushed. My inherent nature is aggressive, which I tamp down on purpose unless its needed.

What I do know is that if I tell him, flat-out, that he needs to back off, he won't. And I do know that at least two people in the group will be on my side. And I DO KNOW that I do not want to split these guys up on grounds of friendships, especially long-term ones like this.

So he's an ass to you because he can be. That makes him a bad person because he wants someone to be an ass to. You don't judge someone by how they treat people they've ingratiated themselves to, or at least, not solely(since in some cases people are the reverse, luring people in and then abusing the **** out of 'em).

And if you take his ****, then he'll think it's ok and if they stay silent he'll have their complicit support. If you don't take his ****, and they realize he's just being an ass for being an ass's sake, then either they'll reveal themselves to be as bad as he is or give him the message to cut the crap. If he has some sort of actual problem with you, then he needs to come out and reveal it anyway, since you don't want to find out when he's slashed your tires or assaulted you physically.

I mean, does this guy do this to everyone new? Because it sounds like he might be trying to scare off anyone who might make friends with the group out of some kind of insecurity.

faceroll
2010-02-01, 02:46 PM
EDIT: When I came into this thread I thought it was about Maruts and Modrons having a cage match

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.


It's a wizard/fighter. It's a horrible build. You should be able to plaster him with no special preparation.

Only if you are averaging their last 100 vs. battles. I kind of think there's only going to be one showdown, though.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 02:48 PM
Nah, just me.

I’ll put it this way:

I’m in better shape than him. I’m nicer than him. I became friends with the group in a session he wasn’t there for and he had to put up with them talking me up for a week. I found unique solutions to his DM Shenanigans when he runs a game and the group backed me up every time. I have a very pretty long time girlfriend who is getting ready for grad school. I have a college education. I take everything in stride. He has none of this stuff going for him.

In many ways, I am an absolute threat to him and he is absolutely no threat to me, physically, mentally, socially, or even most of the time in-game.

I don’t feel like wasting as much effort as it would take to talk it out with him ON someone like him. If he crosses a line, I’ll put him in his place. He’s come close, but hasn’t yet.

I appreciate your advice and it is true, however, I will not be taking it to the next level IRL because that is not the route I choose to go. Please respect that and understand that I have my own methods of dealing with issues such as this, and that I will not let him take advantage of me. He irritates me and I’d like not to lose to him in a PVP situation. That’s what it comes down to. But I honestly do appreciate your concern. It’s touching that you would be so vehement about the abuse of someone that you don’t even know.

Objectively…you are a good person ;)

The Glyphstone
2010-02-01, 02:51 PM
^This. The IC problem is one thing. Being a **** is not excusable simply because someone is 'one of the boys' - that just means 'the boys' tolerate having a **** amongst them. He's not a good person by any means, and if you really think the other people that you call your friends would back him up if you called him on it, then maybe they're, sadly, not as good friends as you think they are. It's not a fun truth to think about, but it could be the case.


EDIT: It seems you've got the situation in hand, psychologically at least. So let's get back to making sure his IC humiliation is as total as it can be.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-01, 02:55 PM
EDIT: It seems you've got the situation in hand, psychologically at least. So let's get back to making sure his IC humiliation is as total as it can be.

Please. While I don't mind discussing the social issues, I'm fairly confident about them. He's not capable or eloquent enough to take me on and when push comes to shove, I know who has my back and who doesn't. I'm not going to rely on the guy who's known him since they were seven to come down on my side. I will rely on him to stay neutral. I know where I stand and where everyone else stands. I just don't want to force anyone to dig their heels in unless I have to.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-01, 02:56 PM
The fool should have remembered the 192th Rule of Acquisition: Never cheat a Klingon... unless you're sure you can get away with it.

Telonius
2010-02-01, 03:03 PM
Just did a bit of checking up on the C of G class... assuming you have a Wisdom of at least 11, you have a way to lessen what is (probably) his biggest threat against you: Lesser Restoration. This spell will give you back d4 strength damage.

KurtKatze
2010-02-01, 05:55 PM
Just did a bit of checking up on the C of G class... assuming you have a Wisdom of at least 11, you have a way to lessen what is (probably) his biggest threat against you: Lesser Restoration. This spell will give you back d4 strength damage.


Ray of enfeeblement is a penalty to strength. I thought they were not cumulative because it is no damage oO

The Glyphstone
2010-02-01, 06:18 PM
Ray of enfeeblement is a penalty to strength. I thought they were not cumulative because it is no damage oO

That is correct - Lesser Restoration will not help vs. RoE.

illyrus
2010-02-01, 08:42 PM
It's been awhile since I've played 3.5E so my knowledge has floundered some. Pretending I was this guy and were playing a ftr 4/wizard 4 and loved party PvP I'd probably being packing a scroll of polymorph and/or greater invisibility (or stilled versions of those). I'd try to wait till I could surprise you and toss on what I felt was an "I WIN" buff.

Personally I'd ask the DM if he would consider the need for party betrayal to require a bluff check versus your sense motive. That way you'd have a chance to not be surprised. From your perspective if you get to start next to him ready an action to sunder whenever he starts to move. Explain OOC that you really don't care about winning, but you'll be happy to reduce his character to a pauper. If he steps away from you he started to move so pick a nice item and sunder away. If he draws a item or weapon he also started to move so again you get to sunder. Buy some healing potions and sunder away his "I WIN" items.

If he gets out some "I WIN" button like greater invisibility or polymorph, exit stage right hoping your boosted barbarian speed will be enough to keep you away. Wait till it has worn off, go buy a hat of disguise, and tell the DM you're using it. Then write a note that says you're going to stay away from the party for the next couple of days and hand it to the DM. Each time they encounter someone in town look up at your DM expectantly and pickup your d20. Wait for him to be put in jail for slaughtering an innocent peasant thinking it was you.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-01, 09:41 PM
It's been awhile since I've played 3.5E so my knowledge has floundered some. Pretending I was this guy and were playing a ftr 4/wizard 4 and loved party PvP I'd probably being packing a scroll of polymorph and/or greater invisibility (or stilled versions of those). I'd try to wait till I could surprise you and toss on what I felt was an "I WIN" buff.


Scrolls use ASF so he'd have a 35% chance of the I WIN failing.

illyrus
2010-02-01, 10:29 PM
Scrolls use ASF so he'd have a 35% chance of the I WIN failing.

Can you put metamagic still spell on a scroll? I've honestly forgotten. And really I wouldn't want to depend upon the 35% chance even if you couldn't, that's probably better than his chance to hit.

frogspawner
2010-02-02, 02:49 AM
Each time they encounter someone in town look up at your DM expectantly and pickup your d20. Wait for him to be put in jail for slaughtering an innocent peasant thinking it was you.
Nice one! :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-02-02, 06:44 AM
Can you put metamagic still spell on a scroll? I've honestly forgotten. And really I wouldn't want to depend upon the 35% chance even if you couldn't, that's probably better than his chance to hit.

Both scrolls and wands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm) can indeed store metamagic versions of spells.

Wands only go up to 4th level, but do not require verbal or somatic components to activate - so you could use a Wand of Polymorph while in armor or being grappled.

Rasman
2010-02-02, 09:34 AM
I'm liking the Survivor idea, lol...secret alliances and such, just pray you win the immunity idol XD

Frankly, I think the best way to deal with this guy is the subtle way, be REALLY nice too him, and I mean REALLY nice, and then when he fails something like a climb check, you might ACCIDENTALLY roll a 2 to try and save him, whoops...actually, don't roll that bad...just barely though...you can always fudge the roll on that, I mean, you can make it LOOK good at least "how was I supposed to know I was wearing gloves of fumbling?" XD I'm totally not the passive aggressive type, honest...


It's been awhile since I've played 3.5E so my knowledge has floundered some. Pretending I was this guy and were playing a ftr 4/wizard 4 and loved party PvP I'd probably being packing a scroll of polymorph and/or greater invisibility (or stilled versions of those). I'd try to wait till I could surprise you and toss on what I felt was an "I WIN" buff.

Personally I'd ask the DM if he would consider the need for party betrayal to require a bluff check versus your sense motive. That way you'd have a chance to not be surprised. From your perspective if you get to start next to him ready an action to sunder whenever he starts to move. Explain OOC that you really don't care about winning, but you'll be happy to reduce his character to a pauper. If he steps away from you he started to move so pick a nice item and sunder away. If he draws a item or weapon he also started to move so again you get to sunder. Buy some healing potions and sunder away his "I WIN" items.

If he gets out some "I WIN" button like greater invisibility or polymorph, exit stage right hoping your boosted barbarian speed will be enough to keep you away. Wait till it has worn off, go buy a hat of disguise, and tell the DM you're using it. Then write a note that says you're going to stay away from the party for the next couple of days and hand it to the DM. Each time they encounter someone in town look up at your DM expectantly and pickup your d20. Wait for him to be put in jail for slaughtering an innocent peasant thinking it was you.

OR out and out illusions are awesome...shame you're not a wizard for this...commoners that look like Hobgoblins often do the trick...

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-29, 12:05 PM
I am aware that this is thread necro-ing and thus may be frowned upon, but I received a few PMs over the past week or two that brought this up, so I thought I might update the situation.

As of now, we have not played the game mentioned in this thread again, due to the DM’s laziness. We have, however, played a number of other games, in which the following occurred:

Vampire: The Masquerade – My character is a lapsed assamite who no longer follows the Blood path. His is a playboy gangster drug-dealing assamite. When we, as part of a team, enter a sewer with a Brujah and a Tremere to silently enter a Sabbat controlled area, I draw a knife to stay ready. He proceeds to declare that he has a garrote around my throat immediately and says “Don’t do anything stupid or start any trouble with me.” His character knows absolutely nothing about mine. When I double check that he actually meant to do this as we entered a hostile zone where having a weapon out was necessary, he said yes, so I simply had my character remark that he ought to put his weapon away till it was necessary. Issue was defused until I later helped the Tremere up from a fall that left her vulnerable to attack, at which point OOC he started yelling at me for being a “stupid nice Assamite” and not playing my character correctly, to which two other players told him that in fact, he was clearly not understanding how Vampire: The Masquerade allows for characterization. He was taken outside and given a long talking two by the DM and another player. We have not played that Vampire game since.

DnD Game: In this game, I play a cleric/ranger, focused on archery. Upon my introduction to the party, I respectfully asked his character (a human-turned-dragonborn of Bahamut wizard) his name and mentioned I had never met one of reptilian type before (my character didn’t really know much about Dragonborn). He responded by having his character get extremely offended (which is fine) about being called a lizard. I had my character politely and contritely apologize repeatedly, honestly aghast at having offended someone with draconic blood and an oath to follow Bahamut. I show respect for him and his heritage, blah blah blah. When another player asks me who I worship, I mention that my goddess is a consort of Correllon and his response is “Oh, so you’re goddess is a whore?” and then call my character the whore-worshipper for the rest of the session, yelling it at every opportunity. I spend the entire time playing my good little cleric to the hilt, calmly taking his insults and not responding, despite the fact that I could probably drop him with one rapid-shot from my +1 Shock Longbow (coupled with Favored Enemy: Arcanist and a large chunk of knowledge: arcane and Knowledge Devotion). Then he tells me, out of character, I make stupid characters. (I admit, I sort of started this one, but he kind of took it a little bit further).

DnD Game 2: I mentioned in another thread that I wow’d everyone in the game by nailing a rage drake for 56 damage with a charging smite from my paladin. During this encounter, the monk and swashbuckler (who were nearly dead) had run far ahead of the cart we were using to travel. My paladin (who did not have a mount) was running towards the battle, since the rogue piloting the cart was making no attempt to take it towards the battle. The rogue, in case you were wondering, is Player D! ::headdesk:: After I have been running for a while, the DM basically railroads the rogue into driving the cart towards the battle. It catches up with me (Full Plate is slow) and I hop on, the rogue calling me “an idiot and a waste of space”. When I asked if he could get the cart going any faster, he slashed a horse free from the cart, jumped on it, and rode away. He was immediately shouted at by every other player, as both the dragon shaman and the cleric were still on the cart. He is forced to retcon. I get into charging range and crush the drake. D (the player) gets up from the table and walks away, muttering curses. My friend L tells me later he was saying I was ridiculous, cheating, and poisoning the other players against him.

So, that’s where I stand these days! Resting comfortably in the knowledge I am a better player and person than he is, and idly wondering when he’s going to choose to bring his problems to a boil. I’ve pretty much decided I’m not going to take much more of this. I’ve sat on it for two months…more, really. I’ve now drawn my line and have warned the DMs of the games I am playing in. If he crosses a line, I will no longer turn my back on it, IRL or in-game. I am tired and frankly if this results in me not being welcome at the table anymore, so be it. I will crack his ego and walk away, secure in the knowledge that I took down a bully that has no place outside of a schoolyard.

Thanks to a lot of you…not only for the advice, but for the concern for my well-being and psyche. Gamers are a tight-knit bunch, even when they don’t know each other, and that’s always been proven to me by communities like this.

Emmerask
2010-03-29, 12:31 PM
Well it´s not really thread necroing if you tell the forum how everything went after having asked for input on the matter.
I wish more people who asked similar questions would do that so that we know what was helpful and what not.

:smallsmile:

Frosty
2010-03-29, 01:38 PM
The guy sounds like he's 12. If things doo come to a boiling point, don't forget to ask him who his favorite Power Ranger is before he leaves crying (or you leave).

AtwasAwamps
2010-03-29, 01:40 PM
The guy sounds like he's 12. If things doo come to a boiling point, don't forget to ask him who his favorite Power Ranger is before he leaves crying (or you leave).

I'm still partial to Amy Jo Johnson.

I mean, what?