In Retrospect: Redcloak's voice on Paladin's Fear and Lichdom

[Alex Warlorn]

I know that Redcloak just really hates Paladins (much like Tsukiko) and he just wanted to say say something self righteous to the self righteous paladin who wasn't even alive when he lost everything .

But in retrospect, Redcloak overlooks some times, I know he likely doesn't care cause he hates paladins anyway (heh, imagine if he met a paladin goblin, please skip joke references to webcomic 'Goblins').

He says Xykon did the natural thing, try to survive, by becoming a Lich. But Xykon doesn't survive! He just exists! To para a phrase I once heard, "You wanna live?" "You call this living-?!" (Please skip the live/undead/dead/not really dead/dead but not dead-dead, jokes). And any druid who even remotely follows their class or alignment would tell you, accepting death is PART of life.

If paladin giving up fear -if Miko's over the top claim is to be believed to refer to ALL fear rather than to be immune to artificial fear- (which given how O-Chul showed fear FOR his country-men's fate at the possible hands at the Snarl IMHO torpedos Miko's misinterpretation of her own class features), then it actually fits into what is a natural reaction for a social animal like humans: protecting one's fellows who are not in a position to protect themselves.

They GIVE UP fear for the sake of protecting their fellow Azurite, this could be logically seen as an act of self sacrifice for the sake of protecting one's fellow, which for social animals IS a natural action.

I know Redcloak just wanted something cool to say to Miko, but meh, I felt it needed to be said.

[Morty]

Oh my, Redcloak's opinion about paladins and humans in general is biased and influenced by his prejudices, and therefore unfair and untrue. Who would have thought?

[FabuVinny]

Rich, himself, says in the commentary to that arc that Redcloak is being a hypocrite there. The Sapphire Guard brought about its own downfall but that in no way means that Redcloak's opinion counts for anything.

[Optimystik]

If paladin giving up fear -if Miko's over the top claim is to be believed to refer to ALL fear rather than to be immune to artificial fear- (which given how O-Chul showed fear FOR his country-men's fate at the possible hands at the Snarl IMHO torpedos Miko's misinterpretation of her own class features), then it actually fits into what is a natural reaction for a social animal like humans: protecting one's fellows who are not in a position to protect themselves.

They GIVE UP fear for the sake of protecting their fellow Azurite, this could be logically seen as an act of self sacrifice for the sake of protecting one's fellow, which for social animals IS a natural action.

A couple of points:

1) A paladin's fear immunity does indeed block both magical and mundane sources. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#auraofCourage)

2) O-Chul showed concern out on the parapet, not actual fear. It is not stated anywhere that the aura of courage insulates a paladin from feelings of anxiety, particularly for innocents. Thus, Rich has plenty of wiggle-room here.

3) Paladins don't actually gain fear immunity until level 3 - this explains the "fleeing paladin" seen in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)

[derfenrirwolv]

It blocks the fear effect.

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.



It doesn't HAVE to mean that the paladin doesn't feel the emotion, just that they're always free to act on their own. That could very well be how it works in OOtS verse, but Miko may have just shut off all of her emotions but anger on her own, which is part of her problem.

The reason for making it apply to non magical effects is probably

Frightful Presence (Ex)

which is an exceptional ability, and thus not magical.

[Snails]

Being immune to fear, does not logically imply you cannot feel the fear emotion at all.

A Red Dragon possesses "immunity to fire". Does that that mean the dragon is physically incapable of noticing the temperature difference between a cool stone floor, a cooking fire, and a pool of lava?

[Forbiddenwar]

If paladin giving up fear -if Miko's over the top claim is to be believed to refer to ALL fear rather than to be immune to artificial fear- (which given how O-Chul showed fear FOR his country-men's fate at the possible hands at the Snarl IMHO torpedos Miko's misinterpretation of her own class features), then it actually fits into what is a natural reaction for a social animal like humans: protecting one's fellows who are not in a position to protect themselves.

I don't think Miko is a credible source on Paladin behavior. Miko and Credibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)don't mix.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The reason for making it apply to non magical effects is probably

Frightful Presence (Ex)

which is an exceptional ability, and thus not magical.
Also: Immunity to Intimidate checks.


Being immune to fear, does not logically imply you cannot feel the fear emotion at all.

A Red Dragon possesses "immunity to fire". Does that that mean the dragon is physically incapable of noticing the temperature difference between a cool stone floor, a cooking fire, and a pool of lava?
Exactly. There is a strong difference between feeling something’s non-game effects and suffering its mechanical consequences.

[Father Dale]

3) Paladins don't actually gain fear immunity until level 3 - this explains the "fleeing paladin" seen in this strip. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html)

Actually what that Paladin is fleeing from causes a fear for which there is no magical or divine protection....

the fear of what a rust monster can do to a metal armor and weapon dependent PC. :smalleek:

[Teddy]

With the risk of go a bit off-topic, but...

What I find most hypocritical in Redcloaks speach is not that he call paladins "unnaural abominations" (still hypocritical anyway), but that he calls himself an 100% natural goblin even though the crimson mantle's preserving abilities has completely halted his aging. I don't know where I read it (probably in SoD, if I read it at all and it's not an figment of my mind), but I think someone said that Redcloak is still the angry teenager that he was when he donned the cloak the first time. He's not natural any longer at all.

[Optimystik]

With the risk of go a bit off-topic, but...

What I find most hypocritical in Redcloaks speach is not that he call paladins "unnaural abominations" (still hypocritical anyway), but that he calls himself an 100% natural goblin even though the crimson mantle's preserving abilities has completely halted his aging. I don't know where I read it (probably in SoD, if I read it at all and it's not an figment of my mind), but I think someone said that Redcloak is still the angry teenager that he was when he donned the cloak the first time. He's not natural any longer at all.

All I'll say is that Redcloak is no stranger to hypocrisy. :smalltongue: