You know it's possible (SoD Spoilers)

[BRC]

That the Plan is no longer necessary.

Redcloak's goal, at least the ones he stated (And the ones he probably told himself were his goal) was to bring Goblinoids above the place the Gods had designated for them, as XP for low level adventurers. To make a society on an even footing to humans, to give Goblins an equal chance to make their own destiny.

Now, that's what he says he wants, and knowing Redcloak, that's probably what he thinks he wants, now what he actually wants may be far more than that, but whatever.

My point is, Redcloak has pretty much achieved his stated goal. He has built a goblinoid nation, they have enemies yes, but it has been acknowledged by several other nations, which means a large number of people are now seeing goblinoids as more than things to be killed. In a way, Goblinoids may now begin forging their own destiny.

What's more, I think Xykon recognizes this. Remember, Xykon is smart, he's not quite as smart as redcloak, and he's lazy, but he isn't stupid. He see's what's going on, even if Redcloak dosn't. That's why he asked Tsusiko to learn about the gate ritual, he knows that Redcloak may look around one day and realize that he dosn't need the Snarl to achieve the Dark One's goal, that he can better serve the goblinoids by staying and leading them, that Xykon is no longer needed.

And, (What's more), that Xykon no longer has his phylactery, and that all it will take is an AMF and some bugbears with Sledgehammers to get that problem out of his way (I'm not quite sure how a lich's phylactery/regeneration will work if the lich dies in an AMF).
Now, whether Redcloak has realized any of this I don't know, but Xykon certainly has, and he's making plans. He'll stick with Redcloak for the time being, but he's prepearing to, if necessary, blast everything with fangs, and head out with Tsusiko to get to the gate anyway.


I would not be surprised if, at one point in the comic, Redcloak will be working to stop Xykon.

[Asta Kask]

Yeah... the problem with making a deal with the Devil is how to tell him he's no longer needed. Xykon will not be happy if Redcloak abandons the Plan, and he can cream Redcloak without breaking a sweat. Especially since he doesn't sweat anymore.

[Alex Warlorn]

I seriously doubt that The Dark One is going to let Redcloak abandon the grand master scheme.

[BRC]

Yeah... the problem with making a deal with the Devil is how to tell him he's no longer needed. Xykon will not be happy if Redcloak abandons the Plan, and he can cream Redcloak without breaking a sweat. Especially since he doesn't sweat anymore.
Oh, I know. As I said, Xykon is preparing to split if it looks like RC dosn't want to keep playing along, and he'll probably lower a few census numbers on his way out if he does, starting with Redcloak.

As for the other comment, not necessarily. The Dark One's goal while alive was to create a goblin nation. As a God, his plan was to use the Snarl to hold the Gods hostage and force them give goblins a fair slice of the pie. Assuming Redcloak wasn't lying in SoD, that goal has already been achieved, or is at least within reach. The method was different, but the goal is the same.
Of course, all this is assuming RC and the Dark One were being honest when they said all they wanted was to give Goblinoids a fair chance. it's entierly possible they may just keep re-defining "Fair", or just keep expanding more and more, but by their stated goals, the Plan is no longer necessary

[Starscream]

You raise a valid point. I guess the issue now is whether or not Redcloak is willing to give up on The Plan and just settle down.

My guess is he is not. In SoD he found himself in a similar dilemma. His brother Righteye had found a peaceful existence out of humanity's way, and was happy with his life. Redcloak initially refused to accept such an existence, but then changes his mind...only to have Xykon show up and conscript them all.

Redcloak subsequently sided with Xykon against his own brother, because the alternative would be admitting that all the goblin lives he had sacrificed in the name of The Plan had been in vain.

I think something similar could happen here, on a much larger scale. This time it's not about settling for a small village, but a large nation state. Theoretically this is what he always wanted, but as far as we know the Dark One still wants to go ahead with the plan, as does Xykon. Is Redcloak really going to tell his God "Sorry, I'm satisfied. We're done here."?

If he does, I bet Xykon lays waste to the city. He's already shown signs that he no longer finds Redcloak reliable, and maybe training Tsukiko or the hobgoblin priest to take his place. And he certainly won't leave Redcloak and his followers in peace; that's not his style.

If however Redcloak continues on with his reckless Plan, I bet he gets even more goblinoids killed in the process. And every one of them will just be another reason he has to keep going, so their deaths won't be in vain.

Either way, I have serious doubts that Redcloak is getting a happy ending.

[Asta Kask]

And I think Xykon is planning ahead. He's showing Tsukiko the ritual so that he has an out if Redcloak falls by the wayside.

[Conuly]

I seriously doubt that The Dark One is going to let Redcloak abandon the grand master scheme.

Why not? If he can accomplish the same goal as the Plan (equality and a fair standing for goblins) with less risk and loss of goblin life, he might be all for it. We have no idea what The Dark One is like, anyway.

[derfenrirwolv]

:redcloak: "I have what the goblins have needed and wanted, a stable country to call our own! We don't need you or the plan anymore!"

:xykon: "Wait.. so you're not comming with me because you have a country here to look after?"

:redcloak: Yes!

:xykon: "Maximized meteor swarm.... there, took care of that little inconvenience for you, now remember to pack light, the desert's hot.

[Da'Shain]

This is a real danger for the goblin nation, one which will not go away while Xykon remains undead. By this point, the sorcelich pretty much considers the gobbos his minions in perpetuity, and doesn't care in the slightest what they do so long as they obey him when he wants them to. Luckily for them, his uses for them as a whole are fast waning, so that he only really needs Redcloak and a few minions here and there rather than an entire army. Redcloak's best chance of keeping his nation alive is to go along with Xykon, but make sure that no more wars get declared.

Unfortunately, depriving the gobbos of their (probably) only high level character is likely to bite them as well, considering that they still have enemies in the form of Azure City's survivors and their allies. And Azure City is a fairly large threat, with several high level characters and a rather large grudge. Take away Redcloak and Xykon from the earlier battle and the fight would have been, if not a slaughter, at least a much larger bloodbath for the gobbos and a near-certain loss. Another fight like that, but this time as defenders without high level characters (and with probably only 1 or 2 mid level characters like Jirix, assuming Xykon doesn't take them too) and a resistance still in their city, would likely go extremely poorly for them.

All that's a roundabout way of saying, basically, that the new nation is essentially screwed either way, unless Xykon dies somehow (and even then, they lose their ace in the hole, loose cannon though he may be). Unfortunately, they're more immediately screwed if Redcloak decides to disobey, so he's pretty much going to have to hope that the hobbo nation can take care of itself, which it likely cannot.

[Ancalagon]

The funny thing is that Xykon ALSO does not need the plan anymore.

When he teamed up with Redcloak he was still a fleshy human and had quite a few levels less than he has now. These days, he is basically immortal and more powerful than most other characters.
He wants to rule the planet (or at least a large part of it) and has power plus all the time he wants.

He simply does not NEED any "special effect" anymore to achieve that goal. He could go out, attract a few high-level followers (specialised ones, like Tsukiko or to replace Redcloak) and go for it the conventional way. If he's at least a bit careful (he probably is after the fight with Soon) he won't need his "superweapon".

Xykon probably still wants to go after the Snarl since it's "a lot of power that can be used in a very concentrated way" and he also might fear that "someone else" will get the hand on that power ("better me have it than them!"). But he does not actually *need* that power anymore - in fact, he now gives up an army of some 20.000 (or more, no clue how many got attracted to the city over the last year) goblins.

[Kurald Galain]

they're more immediately screwed if Redcloak decides to disobey, so he's pretty much going to have to hope that the hobbo nation can take care of itself, which it likely cannot.

With enough political aid, they might.

There may even be some Azurite corrupted nobles who would happily support Goblin rule in Azure City in exchange for getting their ancestral lands back. It's not like we haven't seen corrupt nobility before...

[Da'Shain]

With enough political aid, they might.

There may even be some Azurite corrupted nobles who would happily support Goblin rule in Azure City in exchange for getting their ancestral lands back. It's not like we haven't seen corrupt nobility before...They might, it's a possibility. But I doubt they'd actually get any. Nations "recognizing" them and trading with them doesn't necessarily translate to allies.

Also, I doubt that the goblin nation will look kindly on human lords returning to the land they consider "theirs" now. Again, it's a possibility, but a remote one in my opinion.

[BRC]

Stuff
The two situations you bring up are both very different than the current one.
Remember, he eventually Accepted giving up the Plan to live in Right-Eye's village, it was only Xykon's intervention that changed things. Right-Eye's plan to stab xykon mid-fight, assuming it worked, would have left the Goblins with pretty much nothing, and at the mercy of a good-aligned Epic level Wizard.

This situation is different, Gobbopia, especially with Redcloak's leadership, has a good chance of becoming a way for Goblins to get on equalish footing with the rest of the world. If he thought about it, and there wasn't what I will call Factor X, I think Redcloak would be willing to abandon the Gate plan.

Of course, we cannot ignore Factor X. As has been stated, if Redcloak tried to abandon the Plan, Xykon would just do one of two things, depending on if Tsustiko had cracked the ritual yet.
1. Assuming he still needs Redcloak to pull it off, he just sticks Redcloak in a forcecage or somthing and starts killing Goblins until Redcloak's mind is changed. He'll probably capture a goblin family, kill the children, raise them as undead, then have them kill their parents. I bet he'd get a kick out of that.
2. Assuming Tsutsiko cracks the ritual by that point, he kills Redcloak, then starts killing goblinoids until he runs out of spells, at which point he'll just start killing them with his paralyzing touch until he gets bored with that and flies off to the western continent.

Either way, it ends badly.

But, of course, there is somthing else we have to consider SoD spoilerz

The True nature of the ritual. Xykon believes the ritual gives the ones who perform it control over the Snarl. What it actually does is give the Dark One the ability to shift the Rift to wherever he wants, the idea being the Snarl will then reach out and destroy everything nearbye. If Xykon performs the ritual as-written, he won't gain anything from it, the Dark One, and by extension that goblins are the ones that benefit.


The way I see it, the ideal outcome for Redcloak is that Xykon and Tsutiko decide to run off without killing anybody. If they fail, oh well. If they Succeed, the Dark One gains the ability to boss the other gods around.
Of course, we all know what the chances of that happening are.

[Dr.Epic]

[sarcasm]Yeah I'm sure Rich is just gonna write the Gates out of his story.[/sarcasm}

[Elfey]

Yeah this will probably end badly for the Goblins. But there's a chance they'll make it when Redcloak, and perhaps a few of the other elite leave with big X.

My guess is Redcloak is also attempting to rationalize it all for big X by pointing out that leaving the nation intact gives him a support structure and more minions and power. Aka that this whole nation building is an attempt to prepare for them leaving so good aligned adventurers won't just take his home away like the last time he left the tower. X doesn't care so long as Redcloak stays loyal and doing his tasks in a timely manner.

Right now I'm sure Redcloak not only thinks he has to appease X in regards to the ritual, but that his nation needs it to survive, else another order of pallys gets raised by the Gods to smite the Goblins. If the nation survives for a while without him then we'll see some huge doubt on his part.

As it is my moral feelings is the current boundaries are just, but the Gods who define good and evil in that world won't see it that way.

[MReav]

I think Redcloak is going to continue with the Plan, because his God will want the other gods to recognize his people the way the various nations do.

[frogspawner]

That the Plan is no longer necessary. ... I would not be surprised if, at one point in the comic, Redcloak will be working to stop Xykon.
It isn't. But he can't. Redcloak has to complete the Plan using Xykon, in order to justify all his 'sacrifice' (of others).

The Giant giveth... a glimpse of Right-Eye, a reward to us SoD readers.
And the Giant taketh away... by a similar incident, involving the abandonment and consequent doom of Gobbotopia, revealing to all what makes Redcloak tick.

[DoctorIllithid]

I'd think, now that Redcloak has what he wants, he'll be betting on Xykon getting killed by the Snarl.

[redcodekevin]

[sarcasm]Yeah I'm sure Rich is just gonna write the Gates out of his story.[/sarcasm}

He might already have. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

[Optimystik]

I'd think, now that Redcloak has what he wants, he'll be betting on Xykon getting killed by the Snarl.

I wish him luck with THAT one.

[redcodekevin]

I wish him luck with THAT one.

Hey now, the fact he's undead doesn't mean he can't be undone.

[Optimystik]

Hey now, the fact he's undead doesn't mean he can't be undone.

Yes, but that would require an Idiot Ball of enormous proportions. (Or the Order's help, perhaps...)

[RickDaily12]

Xykon also requires, absoultely MUST have Redcloak present for domination of the gates.

Remember, one of the biggest things of "the Plan" is that in order for control of a Gate to be absoulte (also why Redcloak MUST need Xykon in the first place) is that Gates, to be controlled, require one high level arcane, and one divine spellcaster. They also need to have the knowledge to control it.

And Redcloak is WAY more closer to that required level than Tsukiko, next on the list, we even saw this in the battle between V and Xykon. (Redcloak's disrupting importance priority came AFTER Tsukiko's) so there's not much else to say there. And Redcloak is the one with the most knowledge with the Gates. Don't even get me started with how little Tsukiko knows. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html) Second Page, second panel.

IF Redcloak ever decides to drop the plan for the goblins, Team Evil breaks. Jirix isn't loyal to Xykon, so moving the Crimson Mantle is pointless. Jirix won't accept it. If Team Evil breaks apart, we're left without a story, and then the LAST thing that Rich wants to happen, happens. The story is left with the elimination of Xykon. And that will MOSTLY, be all about Roy.

So no, I really do doubt this theory.

[rewinn]

RC has gotten the monster sanctuary for which he has sacrificed so much, but has also gotten so committed to The Plan that he will forge on ahead and quite likely destroy himself, and perhaps even The Plan itself. He's smart but quite capable of self-delusion (per 546 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)), making him sort of a counterpart to Miko; both Lawful-Fanatic.

[Optimystik]

Remember, one of the biggest things of "the Plan" is that in order for control of a Gate to be absoulte (also why Redcloak MUST need Xykon in the first place) is that Gates, to be controlled, require one high level arcane, and one divine spellcaster. They also need to have the knowledge to control it.

Tsukiko is not that far off the mark. The highest spell we have seen her cast is Mind Fog, which means she must be at least a Cleric 3/Wiz 3/MT 6, for 9 levels of cleric casting. Redcloak was a mere 1 level more than that at most in SoD (i.e. cleric level 10) when he went after Lirian's Gate. He couldn't have been any higher than that, because he wasn't able to cast Heal yet.

So it's possible she is already high enough. Even if the ritual requires cleric level 10, she is only 1 level away.

[Dr.Epic]

He might already have. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html)

What I'm saying is that if Red Cloak is happy with the situation then he'll have no need to pursue any of the other gates and thus we'll never really know what the deal with them is.

We'd also wouldn't have a final showdown where Xykon is killed.

[Alex Warlorn]

:redcloak: "I have what the goblins have needed and wanted, a stable country to call our own! We don't need you or the plan anymore!"

:xykon: "Wait.. so you're not comming with me because you have a country here to look after?"

:redcloak: Yes!

:xykon: "Maximized meteor swarm.... there, took care of that little inconvenience for you, now remember to pack light, the desert's hot.


Hope Redcloak remembers that is PRECISELY what Xykon would do!

[Alex Warlorn]

The two situations you bring up are both very different than the current one.
Remember, he eventually Accepted giving up the Plan to live in Right-Eye's village, it was only Xykon's intervention that changed things. Right-Eye's plan to stab xykon mid-fight, assuming it worked, would have left the Goblins with pretty much nothing, and at the mercy of a good-aligned Epic level Wizard.

This situation is different, Gobbopia, especially with Redcloak's leadership, has a good chance of becoming a way for Goblins to get on equalish footing with the rest of the world. If he thought about it, and there wasn't what I will call Factor X, I think Redcloak would be willing to abandon the Gate plan.

Of course, we cannot ignore Factor X. As has been stated, if Redcloak tried to abandon the Plan, Xykon would just do one of two things, depending on if Tsustiko had cracked the ritual yet.
1. Assuming he still needs Redcloak to pull it off, he just sticks Redcloak in a forcecage or somthing and starts killing Goblins until Redcloak's mind is changed. He'll probably capture a goblin family, kill the children, raise them as undead, then have them kill their parents. I bet he'd get a kick out of that.
2. Assuming Tsutsiko cracks the ritual by that point, he kills Redcloak, then starts killing goblinoids until he runs out of spells, at which point he'll just start killing them with his paralyzing touch until he gets bored with that and flies off to the western continent.

Either way, it ends badly.

But, of course, there is somthing else we have to consider SoD spoilerz

The True nature of the ritual. Xykon believes the ritual gives the ones who perform it control over the Snarl. What it actually does is give the Dark One the ability to shift the Rift to wherever he wants, the idea being the Snarl will then reach out and destroy everything nearbye. If Xykon performs the ritual as-written, he won't gain anything from it, the Dark One, and by extension that goblins are the ones that benefit.


The way I see it, the ideal outcome for Redcloak is that Xykon and Tsutiko decide to run off without killing anybody. If they fail, oh well. If they Succeed, the Dark One gains the ability to boss the other gods around.
Of course, we all know what the chances of that happening are.


I just realized. If Tsukiko does crack the ritual for her master. Xykon WILL know the whole truth. And just as the ritual is realistically finished, he tells Redcloak, "Tell your boss that if he wants to blackmail the gods, I expect to be made lord and master of this planet while he's at it!" Then kills Redcloak so the message gets delivered post haste. Then revives Redcloak as a sapient undead some time later to see if the Dark One has crumbled, if not, zap, and wait again, Xykon's got time to kill...

[RickDaily12]

Tsukiko is not that far off the mark. The highest spell we have seen her cast is Mind Fog, which means she must be at least a Cleric 3/Wiz 3/MT 6, for 9 levels of cleric casting. Redcloak was a mere 1 level more than that at most in SoD (i.e. cleric level 10) when he went after Lirian's Gate. He couldn't have been any higher than that, because he wasn't able to cast Heal yet.

So it's possible she is already high enough. Even if the ritual requires cleric level 10, she is only 1 level away.

So? She wouldn't know what to do. She needs the knowledge of the gates to perform any ritual of any kind. Stuff only the bearer if the Crimson Mantle would know. And besides, when I'm meant high level, I was talking Epic Magic... this was stated in SoD when he met with Xykon... Tsukiko may be strong, but she is defintely NOT close to Epic. Redcloak defintely is. We know for sure that since the attack on Azure City, he was 15th level, guarenteed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) He should have gained a few more levels if it's really been a year now...

So yeah, Xykon NEEDS Redcloak... he can't just chuck him away... Therefore, the Crimson Mantle is one of the biggest reason why Redcloak is the foundation... and cannot be thrown away.

[Fitzclowningham]

So? She wouldn't know what to do. She needs the knowledge of the gates to perform any ritual of any kind. Stuff only the bearer if the Crimson Mantle would know.

qft

Since the knowledge is intrinsic to the Crimson Mantle, it doesn't make sense that Tsukiko could be studying it. How does it have a separate existence?

[Moff Chumley]

You can almost tell just from the hopeful tone of 702 that Gobbotopia is doomed... :smallfrown:

[RickDaily12]

qft

Since the knowledge is intrinsic to the Crimson Mantle, it doesn't make sense that Tsukiko could be studying it. How does it have a separate existence?

...What? What are you talking about?:smallconfused:

I'm talking about the moment Redcloak ever wore the Crimson Mantle the very first time. He got hit with a Learn Spell, made specifically for the Goblins, and was taught the WHOLE idea of The Plan, right then and there. And I'm saying that Tsukiko DOESN'T know anything about this at all.

From the link I presented, Comic 543 clearly proves that Tsukiko knows nothing about the Gates. Or at the very least, nothing at all for at least a couple of months. Redcloak and Xykon have researched this for years, and due to what Blackwing saw, I STILL don't think they know everything they need to know.

So what I'm trying to say is, that Redcloak knows the most because of the Crimson Mantle, which is his direct link to The Dark One, who knows all about these gates. And that the order of knowledge goes down: Redcloak, then Xykon (who still doesn't know enough), then the MitD (who has had at least some brush knowledge for the past year, but isn't a divine caster) and then Tsukiko.

Therefore, Xykon can't throw Redcloak away.

[Optimystik]

So? She wouldn't know what to do. She needs the knowledge of the gates to perform any ritual of any kind. Stuff only the bearer if the Crimson Mantle would know. And besides, when I'm meant high level, I was talking Epic Magic... this was stated in SoD when he met with Xykon... Tsukiko may be strong, but she is defintely NOT close to Epic. Redcloak defintely is. We know for sure that since the attack on Azure City, he was 15th level, guarenteed. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) He should have gained a few more levels if it's really been a year now...

So yeah, Xykon NEEDS Redcloak... he can't just chuck him away... Therefore, the Crimson Mantle is one of the biggest reason why Redcloak is the foundation... and cannot be thrown away.

I take it you didn't read SoD. Redcloak was a much lower level in that book than he is now, yet he was still able to perform the ritual. I explained all this in my post.

He couldn't even cast Heal at the time they went after Lirian's Gate, which put him at level 10 at the absolute highest. Meanwhile, Tsukiko is at least a level 9 divine caster. Again, I went through all this.

Epic levels clearly aren't required for the ritual, or else their attempts to capture the gate in SoD would have been pointless.

As for knowledge of the ritual, 10gp says that's exactly what Xykon is hoping she'll uncover.

[salinan]

What's more, I think Xykon recognizes this. Remember, Xykon is smart, he's not quite as smart as redcloak, and he's lazy, but he isn't stupid. He see's what's going on, even if Redcloak dosn't. That's why he asked Tsusiko to learn about the gate ritual, he knows that Redcloak may look around one day and realize that he dosn't need the Snarl to achieve the Dark One's goal, that he can better serve the goblinoids by staying and leading them, that Xykon is no longer needed.
The plan, as Xykon understands it, is to take over the world. That's what Redcloak is after as well, as far as he's aware. He has no reason to believe that Redcloak would abandon the plan now.

The irony is staggering, that Redcloak has now essentially achieved what he set out to do without actually needing to hold a gun to the gods' heads to do so. Whether that's enough to satisfy the Dark One, or Redcloak himself, is yet to be seen - the Dark One may still want to humble the gods for their treatment of him, for example. And even if the Dark One doesn't, Redcloak may have his own drive to tip the balance in favour of the goblinoids.

I doubt Redcloak thought far enough ahead when he lied to Xykon to figure out how he would extract himself from the partnership when his aim was accomplished though...

[RickDaily12]

I take it you didn't read SoD. Redcloak was a much lower level in that book than he is now, yet he was still able to perform the ritual. I explained all this in my post.

He couldn't even cast Heal at the time they went after Lirian's Gate, which put him at level 10 at the absolute highest. Meanwhile, Tsukiko is at least a level 9 divine caster. Again, I went through all this.

Epic levels clearly aren't required for the ritual, or else their attempts to capture the gate in SoD would have been pointless.

As for knowledge of the ritual, 10gp says that's exactly what Xykon is hoping she'll uncover.

Oh, I read SoD many times... just the last was a while back, and we can't find it.:smalltongue: But I remember lots of parts still very clearly, I just can't go back and make an exact reference.

But from what I can remember, I can say for certain that Redcloak has never performed "any ritual" of any kind. The only ritual of the sort he has done was making Xykon a lich. When he reached Lirian's Gate, the treeants ripped it apart in fear of burning to death, (which they still did) RIGHT when Redcloak got there. The rift was left open, and he knew he COULDN'T use it unless they stayed there for years, maybe decades- just to build a new one. Meanwhile, the rest of the Scribble's forces would have joint-attacked them. Dorukan and his forces would have found them right away, and even though the Paladins Shojo sent failed at telling WHO did it, I'm still sure they'd be able to know if someone was still there.

Then when he reached Dorukan's gate (to when he was finally roughly level 14-15, the one you brought in question) they didn't do anything except try to figure out how to learn MORE about the Snarl, and how to dispel that zapping thingy.

All of this happened in SoD. (as far as Pre-Dorukan gate)

Redcloak had NEVER performed ANY ritual involving the gates. And everytime he mentioned any spellcasting he needed, I distinctly remember him saying that he needed 1 spellcaster of arcane magic, and 1 of divine (himself) to both reach epic level in order to be able to do anything. Where have I heard any of this? I believe he mentioned the two spellcaster issue twice during the invasion of the Sapphire Guard's fort. Once to his brother, that was when he pointed out he had a dunce for a wizard. He did so again when trying to convince Xykon to join the goblins. (I believe THIS was when he said he needed epic level and high knowledge)

Also, check further in the book to when Lirian's gate fell, specificly when Xykon showed up. Didn't Redcloak want to stop because he never knew there were FOUR more gates? Xykon first suggested that they try building a new one, right? But then Redcloak said that something was wrong... I can't remember if he said that they lacked the knowledge, or that he couldn't do that yet... but this was right before Xykon told him to just go to the next one.

And if you STILL say you couldn't find epic mentioning, then check the Crayon Comics. That's the one LAST place where I think they said that both casters need to be different and epic.

But I feel that my argument is backed alone when Rich mentioned in the final panel of Comic 276 that Lirian and Dorukan had done intense research on the power of Magic to "lock" the gates. If epic casters couldn't do this on what they had alone... then I'm pretty sure that it was Epic magic.

EDIT: Also, I know that Redcloak was lower level back then. That's my point. He's minimal of Level 15 NOW, and he STILL can't perform this ritual. If he could, he would have already sealed the rift with Xykon, since he can't use it for the advantage of the Dark One without it being sealed.

If Redcloak can't do this, then there is no way Tsukiko can. That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Optimystik]

But from what I can remember, I can say for certain that Redcloak has never performed "any ritual" of any kind. The only ritual of the sort he has done was making Xykon a lich. When he reached Lirian's Gate, the treeants ripped it apart in fear of burning to death, (which they still did) RIGHT when Redcloak got there. The rift was left open, and he knew he COULDN'T use it unless they stayed there for years, maybe decades- just to build a new one. Meanwhile, the rest of the Scribble's forces would have joint-attacked them. Dorukan and his forces would have found them right away, and even though the Paladins Shojo sent failed at telling WHO did it, I'm still sure they'd be able to know if someone was still there.

Then when he reached Dorukan's gate (to when he was finally roughly level 14-15, the one you brought in question) they didn't do anything except try to figure out how to learn MORE about the Snarl, and how to dispel that zapping thingy.

All of this happened in SoD. (as far as Pre-Dorukan gate)

He was prepared, at the time he arrived at Lirian's Gate, to perform the Ritual. Thus, he was the right level to do it. But the Gate was destroyed before they could.

They couldn't do the ritual once they had Dorukan's gate because of his uber-powerful anti-Evil defensive sigil (the one that nuked Xykon.)


Redcloak had NEVER performed ANY ritual involving the gates. And everytime he mentioned any spellcasting he needed, I distinctly remember him saying that he needed 1 spellcaster of arcane magic, and 1 of divine (himself) to both reach epic level in order to be able to do anything. Where have I heard any of this? I believe he mentioned the two spellcaster issue twice during the invasion of the Sapphire Guard's fort. Once to his brother, that was when he pointed out he had a dunce for a wizard. He did so again when trying to convince Xykon to join the goblins. (I believe THIS was when he said he needed epic level and high knowledge)

The two-caster part is correct, but he never once said the ritual required epic levels.

What you are remembering (or rather, misremembering) is that, when he was mentioning epic levels, he was talking about recreating the Gate that the Treants destroyed, not performing the Dark One's ritual to control the Gate that already existed.


And if you STILL say you couldn't find epic mentioning, then check the Crayon Comics. That's the one LAST place where I think they said that both casters need to be different and epic.

Again, that is to create a gate, not corrupt an existing one. He is referring to Dorukan and Lirian's research there, not to the DO's conversion ritual.

You are confusing two separate processes.

[RickDaily12]

Being that I can't check the book now... at least address these two things, please.

Specificly, that what ritual is Redcloak trying to do? And how does obtain both the levels required and knowledge to do this? I know his goal is to somehow use it to threaten the good-aligned gods... but I don't remember hearing that Redcloak had to use a spell... or the requirements...

Two, that if Redcloak could do this NOW... why need Xykon?:smallamused:

And being that Tsukiko couldn't possibly know everything in a couple months, versus 30+ years, then no, you're probably overestimating the capability of this ritual she was researching. It was probably just a weird necromancy spell.

[hamishspence]

Once cast, the ritual enables the gate to be movable across planes.

So, if Xykon & Redcloak cast the ritual, the Dark One would be able to move the gate anywhere- including into the domains of the other gods.

Hence- once done, they will probably get a message from him saying "start cooperating with me, or I'll drop the gate in any of your homes"

[Optimystik]

Being that I can't check the book now... at least address these two things, please.

Specificly, that what ritual is Redcloak trying to do? And how does obtain both the levels required and knowledge to do this? I know his goal is to somehow use it to threaten the good-aligned gods... but I don't remember hearing that Redcloak had to use a spell... or the requirements...

The ritual is to grant control of the Gates that Lirian and Dorukan created to the Dark One.

The Rifts are inert to magic - but the Gates are not. (e.g. Dorukan's sigil.)

The Plan is to grant control of the Gates to the DO, so that he can use them to move the exit-point of the Rifts at will - namely, into the throne room of the other gods, so that he can bargain for better treatment for the monstrous humanoids.


Two, that if Redcloak could do this NOW... why need Xykon?:smallamused:

Two reasons.

1) All the Gates are heavily protected, thanks to the Scribble. On his own, Redcloak would have a much lower chance of capturing one for the length of time required to perform the ritual. Xykon's magical muscle makes actually acquiring the Gates much easier.

2) The ritual requires a high-level arcane caster and a high-level divine caster. Nothing says it requires epic magic, as you believed. In fact, it couldn't, since Redcloak was not epic back then and still isn't now. So Redcloak can't do it alone, but neither can Xykon.


And being that Tsukiko couldn't possibly know everything in a couple months, versus 30+ years, then no, you're probably overestimating the capability of this ritual she was researching. It was probably just a weird necromancy spell.

Why would Xykon have her researching "a weird necromancy spell?":smallconfused:

Between the three of them, he already has all the necromancy he could ever want or need.

Besides which, the MitD clearly identifies what she is reading as a ritual. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) Unless Team Evil has a bunch of rituals knocking around that we were never told about, this one is most likely the Gate ritual - the only one we've heard of.

[RickDaily12]

Hold it!

hamish and Opt... you're only confusing me further... what are you trying to prove?:smallconfused:

I know about these points already. My goal in this topic is to prove that that is exactly why Xykon needs Redcloak, not Tsukiko, for his side of the mission. I'm using those exact facts, despite lacking the option to quote the book, so I realize I may be a little bit off the mark.

But if you guys agree to this... then what/why exactly are we debating? My understanding of the facts? I mean, I know that since I haven't been able to find it, I'll forget some things... but if you guys agree to this... then debating each other is really just a waste of time, don't you think...?



Why would Xykon have her researching "a weird necromancy spell?":smallconfused:

Between the three of them, he already has all the necromancy he could ever want or need.

Besides which, the MitD clearly identifies what she is reading as a ritual. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html) Unless Team Evil has a bunch of rituals knocking around that we were never told about, this one is most likely the Gate ritual - the only one we've heard of.

Wait, what?:smallconfused:

First off, the MitD never clearly stated anything. He called it a half a ritual, this doesn't identify it as anything at all. If anything, Xykon's necromatic knowledge with the Gates is far greater than hers, so asking her about it is a waste of time. He'd probably ask Redcloak if it involved the Gates. He would know more.

However, Tsukiko DID say WHY he wanted her to do it. If you look more closely, she said she had to LEARN it, and then explain to him why "it isn't so complicated, it works like THIS... dot dot dot." She's not even doing it for the knowledge, she's doing it so she can "earn his love".

Heck, she didn't even say that the ritual was necromatic, she said that Xykon only wanted her to explain it to him if she understood.:smallwink: I just said that it was probably just a random spell, probably necromancy, but I don't actually know. But that is WAY more likely, than a ritual about the Gates that she would know so well about. *sarcasm*

[Optimystik]

Hold it!

hamish and Opt... you're only confusing me further... what are you trying to prove?:smallconfused:

I know about these points already. My goal in this topic is to prove that that is exactly why Xykon needs Redcloak, not Tsukiko, for his side of the mission. I'm using those exact facts, despite lacking the option to quote the book, so I realize I may be a little bit off the mark.

But if you guys agree to this... then what/why exactly are we debating? My understanding of the facts? I mean, I know that since I haven't been able to find it, I'll forget some things... but if you guys agree to this... then debating each other is really just a waste of time, don't you think...?

The problem is that you're not considering the following question:

If Xykon needs Redcloak, and only Redcloak, why is he having Tsukiko research anything?

Given recent events - and knowing Xykon's personality - he is likely planning ahead in case he needs to replace his uppity cleric.

It is not the only possible explanation, but it is very plausible.


Wait, what?:smallconfused:

First off, the MitD never clearly stated anything. He called it a half a ritual, this doesn't identify it as anything at all. If anything, Xykon's necromatic knowledge with the Gates is far greater than hers, so asking her about it is a waste of time. He'd probably ask Redcloak if it involved the Gates. He would know more.

We don't know enough about the MitD yet to know if his assessment would be wrong. But it appeared too specific to be anything but a flash of insight, especially since Tsukiko herself concurred with his analysis moments later.


However, Tsukiko DID say WHY he wanted her to do it. If you look more closely, she said she had to LEARN it, and then explain to him why "it isn't so complicated, it works like THIS... dot dot dot." She's not even doing it for the knowledge, she's doing it so she can "earn his love".

Heck, she didn't even say that the ritual was necromatic, she said that Xykon only wanted her to explain it to him if she understood.:smallwink:

That is why she is doing it for Xykon. That does not explain why Xykon wanted her to do it for him.

And of course the ritual is not necromantic... the Gates have nothing to do with necromancy.

[RickDaily12]

"Uppity" Cleric? Redcloak hasn't betrayed Xykon at all... he's just working at helping the Goblins longer than he'd like. But I doubt it matters, Redcloak is LEAVING Gobbotopia very soon with the rest of Team Evil. He's already done what he said that he was going to do first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

Now with that gone and over with, the only way Azure City can fall back to the control of the Humans is that they have to lose the war again. Oh sure, with an elven strike team on the loose, (or even possibly eliminated, as Redcloak did mention them, but unlikely) Redcloak has no need to stay here. I bet that as soon as Xykon finds his phylactery, or gives up, they're gone. And I don't think Redcloak will think twice about leaving, not unless you can prove me otherwise. He's giving one last speech to what is going to happen to the Goblins, and then he is going to get ready to leave.

And if you can read my edits to the post above, I've said that I DON'T know for certain that Tsukiko is researching is a spell on the Gates. Three things I do know is this. That one, the MitD didn't know either, and called it a half a ritual because he was angry with her, and wasn't finished with it. Two, that it is a spell both Xykon and Tsukiko don't understand at all. And Three, that if it were a spell on the gates, that both what Tsukiko and Xykon know about the gates combined don't outrank to what Redcloak completely knows alltogether.

Redcloak renaming Azure City isn't enough to warrant a suspicion. He hasn't betrayed Team Evil in any way, he merely slowed things down. That wouldn't stop him from asking him about a ritual if it DID involve the gates. Redcloak also knows a lot about the Gates and Necromancy. My point is that it must have been another UNRELATED knowledge issue for Xykon to go to Tsukiko, not Redcloak. I don't know if the ritual is Necromancy or not, but what I am saying is that what you're saying about it makes no sense. "Why go to Tsukiko if it involved the Gates OVER Redcloak?" is what I'm asking you. There's not enough of a case backing it at all.

Also, Xykon needs Redcloak because he is higher level, knows more, and more experienced, WAY more experienced with these Gates over Tsukiko. That's my answer to the question. And more to the point, answer me this...

Why would Xykon choosing Tsukiko researching a ritual about the Gates (something she has NO clue about) over Redcloak be more likely, than say... just she was open for things to do, understood this school of the spell, and wanted her to explain to him because he didn't get it?

Redcloak is not an arcane caster, but both Xykon and Tsukiko are. That could have been why Xykon chose her. And moreover, I don't think the MitD would know anything about what she would be researching at ALL, being that he is not a spellcaster, and also has faint knowledge of the gates.

Therefore, it makes sense that the ritual is NOT a Gate incantation.

[hamishspence]

Oh sure, with an elven strike team on the loose, (or even possibly eliminated, as Redcloak did mention them, but unlikely)

Its not clear if he's referring to them, or to Vaarsuvius- while he says "insurgents" this could be a case of sloppy phrasing.

[Ancalagon]

I find something else also very interesting.

Since I heard about The Plan I occasionally thought that it is right the thing that's needed. The Plan is actually the best option to fix everything that is broken.

We have a spell that let someone move around the rifts. Waiting... three... two... one...

Yes, it can be used to blackmail the other gods but how often does that work? Once? Twice? Then the other gods will surprise-attack (scry and die) on the Dark One.

But the control could ALSO be used to move the rifts to an isolated pocket dimension (the gods should be able to create something like that). The result? No rifts anywhere but in an isolated pocket dimension. The Snarl would be contained and the "prison", the world, intact and safe.

(Note: As we do not know if the Snarl even still exists and what the nature of the world inside of the rift is, changed that thought a bit; in that case, the Dark One could move just the acess to another world around and not some god-nuke - which would probably lead to some disappointment... they won't at least unmake everything)

[Optimystik]

"Uppity" Cleric? Redcloak hasn't betrayed Xykon at all... he's just working at helping the Goblins longer than he'd like. But I doubt it matters, Redcloak is LEAVING Gobbotopia very soon with the rest of Team Evil. He's already done what he said that he was going to do first. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

Xykon still has no reason to trust him. He has what he wanted - his goblin nation, that is - Xykon must surely be wondering if Redcloak remains as dedicated to the original plan (as Xykon understands it) as he was initially. He may even be wondering if the ritual does exactly what he was told it does. Either way, having the second-highest divine caster on the team check it out is prudent - especially one who both has reasons to dislike Redcloak and reasons to like Xykon.


Now with that gone and over with, the only way Azure City can fall back to the control of the Humans is that they have to lose the war again. Oh sure, with an elven strike team on the loose, (or even possibly eliminated, as Redcloak did mention them, but unlikely) Redcloak has no need to stay here. I bet that as soon as Xykon finds his phylactery, or gives up, they're gone. And I don't think Redcloak will think twice about leaving, not unless you can prove me otherwise. He's giving one last speech to what is going to happen to the Goblins, and then he is going to get ready to leave.

Actually, Redcloak was referring to Vaarsuvius when he mentioned "elven insurgents" - because Peregrine has not attacked the tower. He is spreading propaganda, making it sound like a calculated elven strike rather than the mere one-man assault it really was.

I don't recall ever saying Redcloak wasn't going to leave, either. :smallconfused: Where did you get that from?


And if you can read my edits to the post above, I've said that I DON'T know for certain that Tsukiko is researching is a spell on the Gates. Three things I do know is this. That one, the MitD didn't know either, and called it a half a ritual because he was angry with her, and wasn't finished with it. Two, that it is a spell both Xykon and Tsukiko don't understand at all. And Three, that if it were a spell on the gates, that both what Tsukiko and Xykon know about the gates combined don't outrank to what Redcloak completely knows alltogether.

A) As I said before, the MitD's comment was far too specific to be a guess. Not only did he correctly identify the spell as a ritual, he knew half of it was missing. It was clearly meant to be insight, not a throwaway comment.

B) There are other sources for knowledge on the Gates besides Redcloak. In fact, Xykon is even walking around with their creators in his pocket.


Redcloak renaming Azure City isn't enough to warrant a suspicion. He hasn't betrayed Team Evil in any way, he merely slowed things down. That wouldn't stop him from asking him about a ritual if it DID involve the gates. Redcloak also knows a lot about the Gates and Necromancy. My point is that it must have been another UNRELATED knowledge issue for Xykon to go to Tsukiko, not Redcloak. I don't know if the ritual is Necromancy or not, but what I am saying is that what you're saying about it makes no sense. "Why go to Tsukiko if it involved the Gates OVER Redcloak?" is what I'm asking you. There's not enough of a case backing it at all.

Xykon can rely on Tsukiko, because she is too infatuated with him to acknowledge what a monster he is. Redcloak, on the other hand, knows exactly how brutal and horrible Xykon can be. Xykon himself is well aware of both facts, so he is being prudent, and not relying on Redcloak more than he has to.


Also, Xykon needs Redcloak because he is higher level, knows more, and more experienced, WAY more experienced with these Gates over Tsukiko.

Hence his attempt to get Tsukiko up to speed. If he didn't intend for her to be involved, why give her a piece of the Gate ritual?


Why would Xykon choosing Tsukiko researching a ritual about the Gates (something she has NO clue about) over Redcloak be more likely, than say... just she was open for things to do, understood this school of the spell, and wanted her to explain to him because he didn't get it?

That makes no sense. Xykon is actually more skilled at necromancy than Tsukiko - you don't see her reanimating angels - what could she teach him about that?

But divine magic - Xykon knows nothing at all. And the only thing we know of that needs divine magic AND that Xykon would be interested in, is the Gate ritual.


Redcloak is not an arcane caster, but both Xykon and Tsukiko are. That could have been why Xykon chose her. And moreover, I don't think the MitD would know anything about what she would be researching at ALL, being that he is not a spellcaster, and also has faint knowledge of the gates.

Tsukiko is a Mystic Theurge - she is both an arcane and a divine caster. By having her look at the arcane side of the ritual (the only side Xykon possesses) he is likely hoping she will be able to puzzle out the divine portion. Whether that is to replace Redcloak entirely, or merely to figure out if the ritual will do what Redcloak said it will do, remains to be seen.


Therefore, it makes sense that the ritual is NOT a Gate incantation.

But what else would it be? It's the only ritual in the comic thus far, and certainly the only one Xykon would possibly be interested in deciphering.

[hamishspence]

That makes no sense. Xykon is actually more skilled at necromancy than Tsukiko - you don't see her reanimating angels - what could she teach him about that?

Didn't The Giant specify those as celestial or half-celestial humans, in the original threads discussing the winged people in Xykon's old tower?

[Optimystik]

Didn't The Giant specify those as celestial or half-celestial humans, in the original threads discussing the winged people in Xykon's old tower?

I wouldn't know - you've been here far longer than me.

(Despite my join date, I lurked for around a year before first posting.)

But the point stands - he really doesn't need necromancy tips, even if he COULD learn them from a wizard.

[hamishspence]

Found it:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6940&page=16

I wasn't actually lurking at the time- started lurking around strip 280 or so- joined much later- spotted the bit on half-celestials while backtracking through the discussion thread index and it stuck in the mind.

[Optimystik]

So you casually remembered a 4.5 year-old post by the Giant despite having no reason to think it would ever come up...

But I'm not jealous at all! grumblegrumblegrumble

:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

For me it was more like 3 months- I only went on an archive trawl recently.

Memory can be a funny thing.

[Elfey]

Big :xykon: only knows what :redcloak: told him with the ritual. Having our favorite Mystic Thuruge research it means he wants to know more. Probably to either know if :redcloak: has been lying, or have a caster not the minion of the Dark One able to do it.

:xykon: knows :redcloak: has thought about betrayal before, but was unable to do it because of his goal. It makes sense to be able to not depend on :redcloak: , and even if he puts the red cloak on another minion they may betray him.

[Thanatosia]

Since the knowledge is intrinsic to the Crimson Mantle, it doesn't make sense that Tsukiko could be studying it. How does it have a separate existence?
The ritual requires both an arcane and a divine caster. The knowledge of both halves is presumably intrinsic to the Crimson Mantle, but Redcloak had to have some way to presenting the arcane half of the ritual to Xykon to learn, hence, the scroll Tsukiko was studying.

As Tsukiko has both arcane and Divine spellcasting knowledge, its not inconcievable that she can reverse engineer the divine half of the ritual from where the Arcane half leaves off, and thus construct the full ritual seperate from the Crimson Mantle.

[Nimrod's Son]

Its not clear if he's referring to them, or to Vaarsuvius- while he says "insurgents" this could be a case of sloppy phrasing.
It's not "sloppy phrasing", it's a carefully-chosen phrase to help oil the wheels of his propaganda machine. He's making a rousing speech to his people here - he's hardly going to mention that the attack was the result of one solitary elf, is he? But he's very much talking about V rather than Team Peregrine there; his second speech bubble in the first panel shows that many hobgoblins were uprooted from their duties to help with Recloak's special "project" - ie. the search for the phylactery.

As for what Tsukiko was studying, well, Optimystik has already pretty much covered my views. Though I would add that if the ritual she's researching isn't the one for controlling the gates, I will personally eat my entire house.