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View Full Version : Dvati + Gestalt = Huh? {3.5}



AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-01, 02:05 PM
I am coercing my DM into running a Gestalt Campaign, and I'm considering a Dvati for the race. But gawd, there's a lot of contraversy behind the race. My DM has yet to rule on how gestalting works with Dvarti.

For those who don't know, Dvarti are a race entirely composed of twins. They have identical classes and share XP as if they are one singular race.

However, I'm unsure on "Actions" mostly.

Can a Dvarti Gestalt have each one "focus" on one end of the Gestalt, such as a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock//Soulknife/Soulbow being able to use opposite ends of the gestalt, but also able to combine for a single massive blast

Also. Since they are twins, does each half roll a separate Initiative or the same?

And lastly, Dvarti with Split Personality disorder? Would that cause too much confusion?

Hunter Noventa
2010-02-01, 02:17 PM
Seems to me both of them would have access to all the abilities from both sides of the Gestalt. Of course, if you went, for example, Wizard//Fighter, you could have one of them wearing the heavy armor and swinging weapons while the other casts the spells, since it seems that at the same time, you don't get say, two sets of spells per day. I'm not familiar witht he Dvarti at all, but that seems to be how it works to me.

The Tygre
2010-02-01, 02:24 PM
Indeed. My immediate thoughts on reading this is that one Dvati would be one half of the gestalt class, and the other Dvati would complete it. Makes perfect sense to me.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-01, 02:31 PM
So minor villain, a Dvati Wight/Ghast (One of each) Ninja/Assassin//Monk/Acolyte of the Fist would have one acting like the Ninja/Assassin the other the Monk/Acolyte of the Fist

Golden-Esque
2010-02-01, 02:32 PM
It does say in their rules, however, that they both do the same action at the same time, and split the same Armor Class, penalties, etc. So just keep it in mind that you're not playing two separate minds; more like one mind stretched across two bodies.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-01, 02:33 PM
It does say in their rules, however, that they both do the same action at the same time, and split the same Armor Class, penalties, etc. So just keep it in mind that you're not playing two separate minds; more like one mind stretched across two bodies.

okay, so they attack the same target at the same second?

INTERESTING....

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-01, 02:43 PM
The Dvati essentially allows you to behave as two characters for purposes of carrying capacity, physical status effects/buffs/most debuffs (blind, poison, daze, stun, nausea, petrifaction, and instant death on a single target, but negative levels affect both), melee attacks (and possibly ranged attacks), flanking actions, aid another actions and abilities with burst/radius/emanation area of effects, but as one creature for virtually the rest.

Quite specifically, a Dvati Fighter X||Wizard X has to cast the spell at unison, even though the material components can be supplied by one side. Since spells effectively influence spell-like abilities, that means a Dvati cannot use Eldritch Blast if the other character can't use it; most likely, both would have to be holding hands or synch-shooting the Eldritch Blast (so any distraction from one twin breaks the synch and nulls the effect); this fits with the idea that Dvati have a telepathic connection but can't sense through the senses of the other.

Anything that's basically mental is treated as if part of one character. So, both Dvati act at the same initiative order, and must ready at the same time; any alterations to Initiative would affect both in that sense, even if it affects only one of the twins. Similarly, mind-affecting abilities affect them both. The only thing that splits is the hit points coming from dice (thus, they get half of the roll, rounded down and minimum 1) but separate Con bonuses.

As for a Dvati with Dissociative Identity Disorder...think that they already have some sort of fictional identity disorder, since they have to behave as twins instead of what they really believe to be (a single soul in two bodies). DID would manifest as a different Dvati entity altogether, except when the identities face each other in which there would be a dissonance between the "twins". Otherwise, the Dvati "split personality" would manifest within both twins. Clear enough?

Also, for purposes of psionics; treat them as spells. Thus, a Warlock/Hellfire Warlock||Soulknife/Soulbow could either use its Eldritch Blast or its Mind Arrow ability, but not both (since that would imply two mental actions on a single mind without artificial augmentations such as Schism)

The true problem lies when Mind Seed or Schism are manifested on a Dvati, since those tend to imply a mental division. Fission would make the twins triplets (since it would affect only one of the twin's bodies), and Fusion would be treating the Dvati as a single character. Schism would allow you to use psionics through each twin, but it would still be the effect of Schism. Mind Seed would invoke the DID concept mentioned above.

Reaper_Monkey
2010-02-01, 02:54 PM
Lots of clever stuff.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Gestalt wouldn't split between the twins because they both have identical classes (even if those classes are a gestalt of two classes themselves). Also you'll run into the issue that Dvati just don't make good casters at all, they're very potent in melee (unless you use the non-official 'errata' which gimps them to a point of stupidity) but the LA and the lack of dual casting (ie the other twin has to give up their actions to allow the first twin to cast) just cripples casting.

Even if you did want to split it, you're better off running two separate characters who happen to be identical twins, and perhaps try and get a telepathy feat to get the two bodies one mind feel. You could even get this for free if you choose to run two non gestalt characters in a gestalt game as that is much weaker.

Hope this helps.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-01, 02:57 PM
Yeah, pretty much this.

Gestalt wouldn't split between the twins because they both have identical classes (even if those classes are a gestalt of two classes themselves). Also you'll run into the issue that Dvati just don't make good casters at all, they're very potent in melee (unless you use the non-official 'errata' which gimps them to a point of stupidity) but the LA and the lack of dual casting (ie the other twin has to give up their actions to allow the first twin to cast) just cripples casting.

Even if you did want to split it, you're better off running two separate characters who happen to be identical twins, and perhaps try and get a telepathy feat to get the two bodies one mind feel. You could even get this for free if you choose to run two non gestalt characters in a gestalt game as that is much weaker.

Hope this helps.

What about my villain?

FishAreWet
2010-02-01, 03:06 PM
Gestalt doesn't change being a Dvati at all.

Reaper_Monkey
2010-02-01, 03:09 PM
What about my villain?

A Dvati Wight/Ghast (One of each) Ninja/Assassin//Monk/Acolyte of the Fist would be a very odd situation to occur. I seem to recall that if one twin dies the other dies very soon after, these templates require the death and then undead raising of the corpse... I have no idea how that would affect them, but as its a villain you can quite easily hand wave that away.

As for effectiveness, yes, they would work very well, you can have each one specialise in a certain style if you want (perhaps even changing half way through combat to confuse enemies) although I'd just have them utilise from both sides of the gestalt.

The classes are melee based so both can move and attack without causing the other to idle, they'd be lethal as rogues instead of ninja (as ninja cant get flank bonus which Dvati are lords of) but yeah its totally viable. Just remember they both have low HP (half each) and as undead they have no CON so even lower HP, keep them out of direct fire where possible or they'll be a very short lived villain.

AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-01, 06:16 PM
A Dvati Wight/Ghast (One of each) Ninja/Assassin//Monk/Acolyte of the Fist would be a very odd situation to occur. I seem to recall that if one twin dies the other dies very soon after, these templates require the death and then undead raising of the corpse... I have no idea how that would affect them, but as its a villain you can quite easily hand wave that away.

As for effectiveness, yes, they would work very well, you can have each one specialise in a certain style if you want (perhaps even changing half way through combat to confuse enemies) although I'd just have them utilise from both sides of the gestalt.

The classes are melee based so both can move and attack without causing the other to idle, they'd be lethal as rogues instead of ninja (as ninja cant get flank bonus which Dvati are lords of) but yeah its totally viable. Just remember they both have low HP (half each) and as undead they have no CON so even lower HP, keep them out of direct fire where possible or they'll be a very short lived villain.

"They" are a low-level boss