PDA

View Full Version : The Laboratory: Alchemy and Herbalism [3.5]



Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 02:55 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Squaredcircle.svg/150px-Squaredcircle.svg.png


The LaboratoryAlchemy and Herbalism


*****


Introduction
Alchemy in D&D is a strange animal: a major part of fantasy worlds and philosophy, it remains surprisingly unsupported, and shockingly ineffectual. By 20th level Wizards have their own way with reality, Clerics summon the angels themselves, and even the mortal Fighter can fell armies. Yet the devoted alchemist sits there gamely tossing vials of alchemist's fire for a paltry 1d6 points of fire damage, wishing against hope that someday, somehow, he could remain viable at high levels, and contribute to a functioning party.

Well now it's his turn.

Mission Statement
The Laboratory is going to be an ongoing project of mine, and, if you wish, of the community's as well. I aim to create a system of versatile and useful alchemical and herbal items to provide for a character all the way from level 1 to level 20 and, when that is finished, produce at least one full base class that will utilize this system to add a viable Alchemist to the game: one who can contribute meaningfully across the entire level spectrum, right up to the gates of Epic play itself.

What I'm Looking For
I'm looking for input, critique, and suggestions for alchemical and herbal items. I'm not necessarily looking for rules included with the suggestions, but, if you wish to offer them, I will gladly look at them and consider them. The more ideas I get, the more fleshed out the system will be. The more critique I get, the more balanced the system will be. And I'm aiming for a well balanced and fully detailed system, so...

What I've Got So Far
The following are simple alchemical and herbal items requiring a mere 1 rank in Craft (Alchemy) or Craft (Herbalism). The exact rules will be detailed in-depth at a later time. For know, know this:

Gathering is the DC to find herbs in a natural environment, negating monetary costs.
Brewing is the DC required to make the admixture.
Crafting Time is the time it takes to make the admixture.
An Admixture is an ingested potion.
Ingestion is the action required to drink the admixture.
Delay is the time between the application and the effect beginning.

Alchemy and Herbs (1 rank)

Bayberry Extract
An herb used to flush diseases and toxins from the body.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 8
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 8
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 swift action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: The imbiber gains a +4 Alchemical bonus to all future saving throws against any non-magical disease and/or poison she is currently suffering from.
Duration: 24 hours

Bilberry Juice
An herb that is known for improving visual acuity and removing blindness.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 10
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 8
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 5 rounds
Effect: The imbiber gains low-light vision (or her existing low-light vision extends one further increment). Additionally, she gains a +4 Alchemical bonus to saving throws against blindness, and a +1 Alchemical bonus to Search and Spot checks.
Duration: 4 hours

Cleansing Draught
An alchemical admixture that flushes other chemicals from your system.
Level 0 Alchemical Admixture
Cost: 1 copper piece
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 10
Crafting Time: 5 rounds
Activation: 1 swift action
Delay: 1 round
Effect: The duration of all Alchemical Admixtures currently affecting the imbiber end. This triggers all additional effects that begin "upon reaching the end of the duration."
Duration: Instantaneous

Damiana Extract
An herb used to reduce physical exhaustion and mild sickness. It also functions as an aphrodisiac.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 10
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 9
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 minute
Effect: The imbiber may freely ignore the Sickened and Fatigued conditions. If the imbiber would become Exhausted, treat her as Fatigued instead (she cannot ignore Fatigue if it is inflicted on her in this manner). Upon reaching the end of the duration, and outstanding effects return to their full strength.
Duration: 2 hours

Devil's Claw Root
An herb that reduces joint pain, muscle strain, and tissue damage.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 11
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 minute
Effect: The imbiber gains a temporary +2 Alchemical bonus to any physical ability score (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution) that has suffered at least 1 point of ability damage (not ability drain). This bonus cannot raise a score higher than its normal maximum (a character with 17 Strength reduced to 16 only gains a +1 bonus to Strength). Upon reaching the end of the duration, the bonus vanishes. If the ability damage is restored during the duration of this admixture, the bonus is decreased by the amount healed (to a minimum of +0, so if a character with 17 Strength reduced to 14 gets 2 points of Strength restored, she no longer gains a bonus to Strength from this admixture).
Duration: 2 hours

Echinacea Extract
An herb that increases the potency of the body's immune system.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 8
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 10 minutes
Effect: The imbiber may make an immediate saving throw against any non-magical disease she currently suffers from. If she succeeds, this save counts towards the number of successful saves needed to recover. If she fails, she suffers to ill effects. Additionally, for the duration of the admixture, the imbiber gains a +4 Alchemical bonus to saving throws made to avoid contacting new non-magical diseases.
Duration: 12 hours

Elixir of Myrrh
An herb that soothes wounds and muscles.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 12
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 11
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 minute
Effect: The imbiber gains 5 temporary hit points. These temporary hit points stack with existing temporary hit points (except those granted through previous applications of Elixir of Myrrh), but cannot bring a creature up beyond its normal maximum number hit points. Additionally, if the imbiber is Fatigued, the imbiber is immediately cured of that condition. A creature cannot be cured of Fatigue in this manner a second time until the duration of the admixture is over: if he takes a second dose of Myrrh, he merely gains the temporary hit points (overriding his previous hit points granted by Myrrh).
Duration: 2 hours

Flashrock
An alchemically coated rock that bursts with light when it strikes an object.
Level 0 Alchemical Item
Cost: 1 copper piece
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 8
Crafting Time: 5 rounds
Activation: 1 attack action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: To activate a Flashrock, you must throw it violently against a surface or creature. When activated, all creatures within five feet of the area of impact must succeed on a Reflex save or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Spot checks for 2d4 rounds. Creatures failing the first saving throw must succeed on a second Reflex save at the same DC or be rendered flat-footed until the beginning of their next turn. The penalty from multiple Flashrocks does not stack.
Duration: Instantaneous

Gotu Kola
An herb that hones mental acuity.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 12
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 minute
Effect: The imbiber gains a +2 Alchemical bonus to all Intelligence based ability checks and skill checks, and a +1 Alchemical bonus to Will saves.
Duration: 4 hours

Lightstick
An alchemical rod that glows brightly when activated.
Level 0 Alchemical Item
Cost: 3 copper pieces
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Activation: 1 swift action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: When activated, a Lightstick sheds light out to a radius of 20 feet.
Duration: 6 hours.

Oatstraw Elixir
An herb used to build and strengthen bone.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 12
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 day
Effect: The imbiber gains the benefits of the Endurance feat.
Duration: 24 hours

Suma Extract
A soothing herb that calms the nerves.
Level 0 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 12
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 10
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 5 rounds
Effect: The imbiber reduces all fear effects he is suffering or he later suffers by 1 level (he is Frightened if he would be Panicked or Cowed, Shaken if he would be Frightened, and he may ignore effects that would give him the Shaken condition). However, Suma is a soporific herb, and the imbiber receives a -2 penalty to saves against magical sleep effects for the duration of the admixture.
Duration: 12 hours.

Tindertwig
A small alchemical twig that burns quickly when struck.
Level 0 Alchemical Item
Cost: 1 copper piece
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 10
Crafting Time: 5 rounds
Activation: 1 swift action (+free action, +move action, +attack action [see text])
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: When activated, a Tindertwig flares brightly. Adjacent creatures that possess normal vision must succeed on a Reflex save or suffer a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Spot checks for 1 round. The penalty from multiple Tindertwigs does not stack.

Additionally, you may use the Tindertwig to attack a creature, or to ignite any flammable object (torches, fabric, paper, kindling, and the like). Touching a Tindertwig to a creature is an attack action, and requires a successful melee touch attack. A successful attack either deals an amount of fire damage equal to 1/2 the creator's ranks in Craft (Alchemy) (rounded down, minimum 1), or ignites a non-magical flammable object carried or worn by the creature (attacker's choice). Igniting an adjacent, unattended flammable object with a Tindertwig requires at least a move action. Igniting a flammable object you carry can be accomplished as a free action. Using a Tindertwig for any of these purposes immediately extinguishes it upon completion of the action.
Duration: 1 round


Alchemy and Herbs (4 ranks)

Alchemist's Fire
An alchemical concoction that burns with an intense heat.
Level 0 Alchemical Item
Cost: 2 copper pieces
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 12
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Activation: 1 attack action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: To activate a vial of Alchemist's Fire, you must succeed on a ranged touch attack against your target (or against AC 5 to hit the square your target occupies). On a direct hit, your target takes 1d6 fire damage plus an additional amount of fire damage equal to the creator's ranks in Craft (Alchemy), and must succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire (unless already on fire). All creatures within 5 feet of the target (or within 5 feet of the space of impact, if only the square was struck) take an amount of fire damage equal to 1/2 the creator's ranks in Craft (Alchemy) (rounded down, minimum 1), and must succeed on a Reflex save or catch fire. Creature who catch fire in this fashion follow the normal rules for catching fire.

Alchemist's Fire will also ignite unattended flammable objects within the square it impacts, and has a 50% chance to ignite flammable objects in adjacent squares. If an attack with Alchemist's Fire misses, consult the rules for misses with Grenade-like weapons.

Throwing larger amounts of Alchemist's Fire in a single attack grants you a +1 bonus to the attack roll for each additional vial (up to a maximum of a +5 bonus). Since the chemicals have such a spreading effect, additional damage dealt by larger amounts is so minimal as to be non-existent.
Duration: Instantaneous [see text]

Alchemist's Frost
An alchemical concoction that is blisteringly cold when activated.
Level 0 Alchemical Item
Cost: 2 copper pieces
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 12
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Activation: 1 attack action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: To activate a vial of Alchemist's Frost, you must succeed on a ranged touch attack against your target (or against AC 5 to hit the square your target occupies). On a direct hit, your target takes 1d6 cold damage plus an additional amount of cold damage equal to the creator's ranks in Craft (Alchemy), and must succeed on a Fortitude save or have their movement speeds reduced to 50% for one round. All creature within 5 feet of the target (or within 5 feet of the space of impact, if only the square was struck) take an amount of cold damage equal to 1/2 the creator's ranks in Craft (Alchemy) (rounded down, minimum 1), and must succeed on an Fortitude save or have their movement speeds reduced to 50% for one round.

Alchemist's Frost will also freeze liquids within the square it impacts, and has a 50% chance to freeze liquids in adjacent squares. If an attack with Alchemist's Frost misses, consult the rules for misses with Grenade-like weapons.

Throwing larger amounts of Alchemist's Frost in a single attack grants you a +1 bonus to the attack roll for each additional vial (up to a maximum of a +5 bonus). Since the chemicals have such a spreading effect, additional damage dealt by larger amounts is so minimal as to be non-existent.
Duration: Instantaneous [see text]

Spiderweed Root
An alchemically treated root that improves the imbiber's climbing ability.
Level 0 Alchemical/Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 12
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 12
Crafting Time: 1 minute
Ingestion: 1 standard action
Delay: 1 round
Effect: The imbiber's pores begin to excrete a sticky goo that adheres them to surfaces. When wearing no more than light armor, the imbiber gains a Climb speed equal to his base land speed, and can climb on any surface that an adhesive could cling to. The imbiber also gains a +4 bonus to grapple checks, and a +4 bonus to resist disarm checks or forced movement. However, the effect is mildly toxic, and the imbiber takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls and armor class for the duration of the admixture. Upon reaching the end of the duration, the imbiber is Nauseated for 1 round.
Duration: 10 minutes


Alchemy and Herbs (6 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (8 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (10 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (12 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (14 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (16 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (18 ranks)


Alchemy and Herbs (20 ranks)

Breathstealer
A potent yet invisible poison, Breathstealer quickly leeches life out of its victims.
Level 9 Alchemical Item
Cost: 100gp
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 36
Crafting Time: 1 hour
Activation: 1 standard action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: To activate a vial of Breathstealer, you must succeed on a ranged touch attack against your target (or against AC 5 to hit the square your target occupies). Alternatively, you may simply open the vial, although this is a dangerous method. Breathstealer spreads out in a 15 foot radius from the point of impact, and forms a cloud of colorless, odorless vapors. Any creature beginning its turn within the cloud (or passing through the cloud during its turn) must make a Fortitude save or fall unconscious. If a creature is already unconscious when its turn begins, it must make a second Fortitude save or immediately drop to -1 hit points. If it is already below -1 hit points when its turn begins, it must make a third saving throw or die instantly.

Overlapping areas of Breathstealer do not require a creature to make multiple saves: the poison is potent enough that multiple instances of it do little to worsen the effect.
Duration: 5 rounds

Philosopher's Stone
Often referred to as the pinnacle of the Alchemist's art, the Philosopher's Stone cures all ills and prolongs mortal life.
Level 9 Alchemical Admixture
Cost: 8,000gp
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 40
Crafting Time: 10 weeks
Activation: 1 full round action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: A creature imbibing a draught into which a Philosopher's Stone has been dissolved gains a number of potent benefits.
The imbiber ceases to age, although he adds the elapsed time to his effective age to determine aging bonuses (but not aging penalties).
The imbiber gains immunity to poison, disease, energy drain, and ability drain.
The imbiber heals at twice the natural rate.
The imbiber gains a +2 untyped bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
Duration: 10 years

Yggdrasil Root Extract
This specially prepared root mimics a slice of the root of the World Tree, granting the imbiber a number of almost divine powers.
Level 9 Herbal Admixture
Gathering: Profession (Herbalism) DC 30
Brewing: Craft (Herbalism) DC 37
Crafting Time: 1 hour
Ingestion: 1 swift action
Delay: 1 round
Effect: The imbiber finds himself infused with the power of the world tree, and gains a number of benefits that rival those of the gods themselves.
The imbiber gains a +5 Divine bonus on all d20 rolls.
The imbiber gains Regeneration 10. This Regeneration is overcome by divine weapons and attacks, as well as fire and acid damage.
The imbiber gains Damage Reduction 15/Epic.
The imbiber gain a +8 bonus to Natural Armor.
The imbiber gains a +12 Divine bonus to Strength and Constitution.
The imbiber gains immunity to death effects, ability damage, ability drain, energy drain, poison, polymorphing, and petrification.
When the effect wears off, however, the crash from this divine state is brutal. Upon reaching the end of the duration, the imbiber falls unconscious for 1d4 rounds, and is thereafter Fatigued for 1 hour.
Duration: 5 minutes
Special: A creature who takes a second dose of Yggdrasil Root Extract before 24 hours have passed immediately falls unconscious for 24 hours as a result of the powerful divine energies wracking their mortal form.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 02:56 PM
--Reserved--

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 02:57 PM
--Reserved 2--

Melayl
2010-02-01, 03:27 PM
Could Gather checks also be done with Survival checks?

Injested items are a good idea. Just don't forget to include applied items (oils, etc) and the good 'ol grenade-like/thrown items. Continue to include everything the PHB has for alchemical items.

Some basic modern chemical-type items would be good too. Archeology has shown evidence that people know how to make batteries and other such things for millenia. Use things like that too.

I'm more than willing to try to help out with whatever you present.

A class from this would seem to crossover somewhat with the Artificer. Some of this could be gleaned from there, as well.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 03:27 PM
How about an alchemical admixture that you can give to a dead character to revive them temporarily? Like if you could find the tomb of a hero from a thousand years ago you could bring them back to fight for a few days. Or maybe an admixture that allows you to continue fighting even after -10 hit points. Or one that makes you blind but gives you blindsense. Also being able to make greek fire would be cool.

DracoDei
2010-02-01, 03:35 PM
Bayberry should probably say "for the course of the current infection/poisoning", otherwise you are giving them a perminant bonus for the price of a DC 8 skill check.


EDIT:
There was a thread where someone was trying to create a combat alchemist class... I made a few suggestions...

ALSO... alchemy DOES remain more viable than 1d6 damage! Everyone knows what a molotov cocktail is, right? So what you say, Alchemist's Fire is better? Well, yes it is... but a VIAL of Alchemist's Fire is only debatable better... if fairly average people IRL can throw wine bottles, then your average 8th level barbarian should be quite capable of hurling the occasional 5 gallon amphora he was carrying in a padded bag of holding. There are a LOT of ounces in 5 gallons... it does get expensive, but the damage cap is NOT the problem.

EDIT^2:
Also how would you feel about "super-tough plastic (IE much tougher than anything Ziploc makes... not any real armor value) wrap in any configuration you can dream up" as an alchemical substance? Because one of my more interesting ideas hinges on that.

EdroGrimshell
2010-02-01, 04:08 PM
I would like toask if you intend to create a potency rating system for how potent the effect is with the ability to increase it for certain affects, similar to the way psionics has augmentations and magic has metamagic feats.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 04:11 PM
I would like toask if you intend to create a potency rating system for how potent the effect is with the ability to increase it for certain affects, similar to the way psionics has augmentations and magic has metamagic feats.

Some, yes. Mainly alchemical items. Herbs don't usually get more potent, but, for example, Alchemist's Fire would.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 04:19 PM
Some, yes. Mainly alchemical items. Herbs don't usually get more potent, but, for example, Alchemist's Fire would.

So I could make a twinned maximized empowered split ray Alchemist's Fire? Or rather, what exactly are you thinking, something like what the ELH did where with higher checks you can craft an Alchemist's Fire that deals more damage?

deuxhero
2010-02-01, 04:22 PM
Could Gather checks also be done with Survival checks?

Yeah, it's pretty much a textbook survival check, no need to make such a narrow skill.

DracoDei
2010-02-01, 04:24 PM
So I could make a twinned maximized empowered split ray Alchemist's Fire? Or rather, what exactly are you thinking, something like what the ELH did where with higher checks you can craft an Alchemist's Fire that deals more damage?

As I said before... that would be unnecessary. Wine. Bottles.
Now for a poison increasing the DC is different from delivering multiple doses.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 04:27 PM
Yeah, it's pretty much a textbook survival check, no need to make such a narrow skill.

How is it narrow? Assuming a wide range of Alchemical and Herbal items, this skill turns anyone who uses it into a minor version of the Artificer, and Profession (Herbalism) basically allows you to craft those items for free. Having it as a separate skill is a good balance point.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 05:15 PM
As I said before... that would be unnecessary. Wine. Bottles.
Now for a poison increasing the DC is different from delivering multiple doses.

It's about flavor, Draco. I don't want people to be lugging 5,000gp worth of alchemist's fire around in 15-gallon drums just to deal some paltry fire damage that a spellcaster could do better. It's rather stupid, honestly, if an alchemist can't even lift the amount of chemicals he needs to deal decent damage.

Plus, damage that cost and time prohibitive (you do know that would take about a week to craft, at the minimum, right?) doesn't lead to a strong mechanic for anything.

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 05:28 PM
It's about flavor, Draco. I don't want people to be lugging 5,000gp worth of alchemist's fire around in 15-gallon drums just to deal some paltry fire damage that a spellcaster could do better. It's rather stupid, honestly, if an alchemist can't even lift the amount of chemicals he needs to deal decent damage.

Plus, damage that cost and time prohibitive (you do know that would take about a week to craft, at the minimum, right?) doesn't lead to a strong mechanic for anything.

Once you've got a fair number of items you should probably make a class that's like the alchemical/herbal equivalent of the Artificer. Except not so horribly broken.

Melayl
2010-02-01, 05:31 PM
I don't know...there is something inherently cool about throwing a large jug of alchemist's fire...

However, it would certainly be reasonable to find different chemicals/ingredients to create a more powerful version of alchemist's fire (there are A LOT of different chemicals that are explosively flammable when combined...I'm still amazed we never blew up our high school chem lab when the teacher was out of the room).


Quote:
Originally Posted by deuxhero
Yeah, it's pretty much a textbook survival check, no need to make such a narrow skill.

How is it narrow? Assuming a wide range of Alchemical and Herbal items, this skill turns anyone who uses it into a minor version of the Artificer, and Profession (Herbalism) basically allows you to craft those items for free. Having it as a separate skill is a good balance point.

While it might be a good balancing point (we don't know how high the DCs will scale), it is also valid that anyone with the Survival skill will know what many, if not most, of those plants/rocks/etc are, and how to find them. I would think it could likely be attributed to both, possibly with a synergy for one or the other.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 05:36 PM
While it might be a good balancing point (we don't know how high the DCs will scale), it is also valid that anyone with the Survival skill will know what many, if not most, of those plants/rocks/etc are, and how to find them. I would think it could likely be attributed to both, possibly with a synergy for one or the other.

The Herbalism check won't actually increase that much...it's never particularly difficult to go out and find a plant. The craft DCs will be the ones that scale.

deuxhero
2010-02-01, 05:45 PM
Perhaps you could give an option to increase creation DCs to make a better item? It could be a general "meta-magic" thing that can be applied to almost anything (except no extra feats) or item specific "augmentations".

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 05:52 PM
The Herbalism check won't actually increase that much...it's never particularly difficult to go out and find a plant. The craft DCs will be the ones that scale.

If the DCs don't scale, you might as well use survival. I think they should though, or at the very least higher rolls should let you find the herbs faster or perhaps in an area where the herb doesn't grow to find one or more herbs that can replace that particular ingredient.

DracoDei
2010-02-01, 06:54 PM
I would expect most characters to stop at wine bottles rather than 1 gallon jugs. But that is a LOT of vials worth as I seem to recall. Once you get past wine bottles though, I agree a scaling mechanic can be of use. Of course, once you have the scalling mechanic some characters are going to chose that over larger containers for various reasons (carrying capacities, concealability, whatever) and that is fine. I am just saying that the damage caps don't become important at as low a level as one might otherwise think.

Mythestopheles
2010-02-01, 09:01 PM
Ooh! Me like. I've wanted to play an alchemist for a while now. Something about them not needing magic. I will definitely be watching this project.

Zeful
2010-02-01, 09:16 PM
Perhaps you could give an option to increase creation DCs to make a better item? It could be a general "meta-magic" thing that can be applied to almost anything (except no extra feats) or item specific "augmentations".

Honestly, if one's revamping alchemy, one should always make the results scale.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 11:15 PM
Honestly, if one's revamping alchemy, one should always make the results scale.

I slightly disagree. Things like the Sunrod, these herbal remedies, tindertwigs, and the like don't need to scale, as they're very utilitarian. Instead, they'll scale by having new variants at higher levels. Others with less variance needed for scaling items (damage and the like) will scale based on the ranks of the crafter.

Kiren
2010-02-01, 11:17 PM
Are you going to stat out A Djinn in Tonic lol?

Drolyt
2010-02-01, 11:18 PM
I slightly disagree. Things like the Sunrod, these herbal remedies, tindertwigs, and the like don't need to scale, as they're very utilitarian. Instead, they'll scale by having new variants at higher levels. Others with less variance needed for scaling items (damage and the like) will scale based on the ranks of the crafter.

Why not have them all scale based on the ranks of the crafter? It makes little difference to me whether a more powerful item is the same item but higher crafter level or a different item, but is there any reasoning behind your decision there?

Pronounceable
2010-02-01, 11:55 PM
I have one word to say. And it's an awesome word, too.
WITCHER!
...
OK, I got more words. If you haven't for some inexplicable reason, get and play Witcher. Preferably on hard, where alchemy is actually necessary.

For those ignorant in ways of awesome, Witcher has a cool alchemy system (among many other cool things). Monster parts, various plant bits and chemicals are gathered to create potions, oils and bombs that help immensely to a professional monster hunter. Its main use for the matter at hand would be ideas.

One main thing in Witcher is that alchemical potions are poisonous. Drink too many too soon and you're dead. Each potion has a toxicity level and drinking each increases toxic meter. When it's high, screen gets all funky with colored dots. That quite effectively stops stacking potion upon potion till you can take on the whole world and win. Something similar could be implemented here.

I'll try my hand at sorta DnDizing the effects of those that aren't straightforward (like Blizzard, which is a haste potion and White Raffard, a heal potion), but they might need new names:

Bindweed: A potion that grants resistance to acid (actually, there can be a resistance potion for pretty much anything, and at highest levels outright immunity)

Black Blood: A potion that's made specifically against vampires, it changes imbiber's blood into something that damages undead heavily (think extra holy water)

Cat: Imbiber gains darkvision

DeVries Extract: A potion that grants tremorsense (originally it gives ability to see beyond walls)

Full Moon: Gives temporary HP equal to imbiber's HP total (originally doubles max HP)

Golden Oriole: A potion that cures all poisons and grants poison immunity

Kiss: Grants immunity to bleeding effects and if the imbiber's HP falls to negatives while it's running he immediately stabilizes

Shrike: A potion that mutates imbiber's blood so that any time the imbiber is struck in melee combat, the attacker takes damage (a bit strange admittedly)

Swallow: A potion that grants fast healing for a very short time.

Thunderbolt: A potion that creates an effect identical to a barbarian's rage on the imbiber (might be a bit too wonky for DnD)

White Honey: A potion that neutralizes ongoing effects of all other potions (and removes toxicity)

Willow: A potion that makes imbiber immune to stunning and paralyzation (originally stun&knockdown)

Wives' Tears: A potion that immediately and without any ill effects cures drunkness.

Wolf: A potion that intensifies focus and coordination, increasing the chances of critical hits (as Imp Critical, give it high enough level and it shouldn't be broken)

Brown Oil: An oil that gives the weapons it's applied to wounding property

Crinfrid Oil: An oil that makes weapons inflict a lot of pain, stunning the enemies it hits (a DC around 15 should be good, immunity to crits negates)

Hanged Man's Venom: A very potent poison applied to weapons (only works on humanoids, could either add a lot of d6es or ability damage)

There are other oils exclusive to certain creature types in Witcher such as Insectoid for vermin, Necrophage for undead, Ornithosaur for dragons, Specter for ethereal beings which should probably be DnDized as allowing any weapon to hit incorporeal and ethereal critters.

Then there are bombs that make poison cloud, explosion, fear, stunning and blindness. Actually every type of damage would be possible. Acid, cold, lightning, physical (by shrapnel), negative energy, positive energy (a heal bomb, whee!), etc.

And you can use existing spells. A Celerity potion! A Power Word Kill bomb! A Flesh to Stone oil! Well, maybe something less horrible. Like a True Seeing eye drop. You don't have to limit yourself to potions, you know.

Stat enhancing stuff is probably a given, as is healing. Each and every buff can be alchemized too I bet, from Barkskin to Greater Invisibility. And we can have weird stuff, like Create Undead tablets. Just add water! Or an Expeditious Retreat suppository...

Truly, the possibilities are endless. It's very strange that such stuff haven't been done yet.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-01, 11:58 PM
Why not have them all scale based on the ranks of the crafter? It makes little difference to me whether a more powerful item is the same item but higher crafter level or a different item, but is there any reasoning behind your decision there?

Well, herbs (those I have listed created at the moment) don't really vary in potency, and nor would something as simplistic as a match. Things where skill WOULD matter will last longer, deal more damage, and so forth.

Eldan
2010-02-02, 02:46 AM
In various fantasy books I've read, there often is a potion or herb which, when used, gives incredible amounts of physical energy for a while, then knocks you out cold. Run for days, fight a group of enemy swordsmen, ignore your wounds for a while.

A suggestion for that would be a potion that gives you a weaker version of a barbarian's rage for a time, then makes you exhausted, or, if you already were fatigued or exhausted, knocks you unconscious unless you make a very high fort save.

Cataphract
2010-02-02, 06:05 AM
Nice idea, and well-thought out approach.

Me likey.

Whenever I have an odd idea or two I'll try to contribute but other than my moral support, I doubt I can offer much since it's out of my area of expertise at the moment.

By the way, would you consider reading actual pieces on alchemy (what we have available, of course), or are you going strictly fantasy?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 09:58 AM
By the way, would you consider reading actual pieces on alchemy (what we have available, of course), or are you going strictly fantasy?

I would definitely consider it. However, most alchemy texts we have available are a mix between astrology, philosophy, and attempts at transmuting various elements: a far cry from stuff that an adventuring alchemist would do. I will, however, be including things like the philosopher's stone, possible transmutation of lead into gold, and similar things.

Drolyt
2010-02-02, 10:40 AM
I would definitely consider it. However, most alchemy texts we have available are a mix between astrology, philosophy, and attempts at transmuting various elements: a far cry from stuff that an adventuring alchemist would do. I will, however, be including things like the philosopher's stone, possible transmutation of lead into gold, and similar things.

Transmuting might be cool. It could maybe add temporary abilities to weapons and armor, or temporarily make your Silvered Longsword an Adamantine Longsword.

Zeful
2010-02-02, 12:48 PM
I slightly disagree. Things like the Sunrod, these herbal remedies, tindertwigs, and the like don't need to scale, as they're very utilitarian. Instead, they'll scale by having new variants at higher levels. Others with less variance needed for scaling items (damage and the like) will scale based on the ranks of the crafter.

True but things like Alchemists Fire/Ice, Acid, Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, should. Damage, spalsh range, rounds effected can all scale by having the addendum "for every X points above the DC increase Y by 1 (round/d6/square (listed in five foot increments))"

Jota
2010-02-02, 01:32 PM
True but things like Alchemists Fire/Ice, Acid, Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, should. Damage, spalsh range, rounds effected can all scale by having the addendum "for every X points above the DC increase Y by 1 (round/d6/square (listed in five foot increments))"

Rounds affected doesn't really need to change, nor does splash range. Blinded for four rounds, for example, is still blinded for four rounds and plenty of time to kill someone regardless of level. If damage is going to scale, there's really no reason to increase splash range either, or the game descends onto "screw the rules, I have money" nonsense. Save DCs, yes; damage, yes, everything else? Not so much.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 01:35 PM
Rounds affected doesn't really need to change, nor does splash range. Blinded for four rounds, for example, is still blinded for four rounds and plenty of time to kill someone regardless of level. If damage is going to scale, there's really no reason to increase splash range either, or the game descends onto "screw the rules, I have money" nonsense. Save DCs, yes; damage, yes, everything else? Not so much.

Exactly. Speaking of which, 2 level 1 items are now up: Alchemist's Fire and Spiderweed Root. Also, save DCs are 10 + 1/2 (ranks in Craft [Alchemy] -3) + Intelligence modifier. This is approximately the same as 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Intelligence modifier, but based on skill at Alchemy rather than simply on level.

Zeful
2010-02-02, 01:37 PM
3.5 is currently "Screw the Rules, I have magic". I fail to see the problem with my suggestion in light of that fact.

Eldan
2010-02-02, 01:38 PM
A few more item ideas (some I have used before):

Tear Gas: probably similar to a smokestick, but also makes targets sickened. Various other poison gases could be interesting.

"Sticky Fire": This one never got an official name. However, it's basically alchemist's fire, with the additional effect that it clings to the target, dealing it's damage again the next round or, alternatively, affecting an area which burns for two rounds. Also increases the reflex DC to avoid catching fire.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 01:48 PM
3.5 is currently "Screw the Rules, I have magic". I fail to see the problem with my suggestion in light of that fact.

Complexity and numbers. Allow me to elaborate:

Complexity: Imagine the humble smokestick. Now, let's look at just some of the permutations I have in mind: ones that impede movement, ones that have invisible smoke and eat away at the eyes, ones that have burning smoke, ones that have poisonous smoke, ones that eat away the lungs...if all of those were one entry under "Smokestick," it would take up the better part of a page, and have FAR to many subcategories, especially if each increased with level.

Numbers: Quite simply, if I aim for a level 0-9 Alchemy system (which I am), everything increasing with level removes my ability to do so. The smokesticks above range in level from 0 to around 7-8: listing them all under "Smokestick" at level 0 means that not only is it incredibly complicated, but I need to come up with hundreds of additional ideas that could, quite simply, be more powerful items at higher levels.

Honestly, it comes down to the same thing in the end. You aren't limited by # per day like you are with spells, so, if you want a more powerful item, you just brew up a more powerful item without needing to calculate a whole bunch of variables.

Jota
2010-02-02, 06:15 PM
3.5 is currently "Screw the Rules, I have magic". I fail to see the problem with my suggestion in light of that fact.

I had a longer post but my computer died, so here's the short of it:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not everyone plays wizard and druids, and a situation with linear warriors, quadratic rule supplement is just not good for anyone. If you're playing those classes, chances are this doesn't add much to your game anyway.

Drolyt
2010-02-02, 06:38 PM
I had a longer post but my computer died, so here's the short of it:

Two wrongs don't make a right. Not everyone plays wizard and druids, and a situation with linear warriors, quadratic rule supplement is just not good for anyone. If you're playing those classes, chances are this doesn't add much to your game anyway.

This post is correct. Not everything has to scale. Spellcasters have two main problems: poorly written spells (polymorph is a great example) and unrestricted scaling. The later was always problematic but was exasperated by a number of non-core metamagic feats and especially metamagic reducers, which allowed you to take low level spells and make them uber (DMM isn't exactly a metamagic reducer, but it had the same effect). Making it so only certain, controlled parts of alchemical and herbal items scale, and using higher level items instead of scaling lower level ones makes it much easier to balance.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-03-21, 02:07 PM
Bringing this back to light.

I've also added two new 21 rank items: Breathstealer and Yggdrasil Root Extract, to show what I had in mind for the top level items.

Temotei
2010-03-21, 02:18 PM
Bringing this back to light.

I've also added two new 21 rank items: Breathstealer and Yggdrasil Root Extract, to show what I had in mind for the top level items.

Woot. :smallbiggrin:

Drolyt
2010-03-21, 02:36 PM
Bringing this back to light.

I've also added two new 21 rank items: Breathstealer and Yggdrasil Root Extract, to show what I had in mind for the top level items.

Breathstealer should allow a saving throw to prevent death when they begin their turn at -1 hp.

Temotei
2010-03-21, 02:40 PM
Breathstealer should allow a saving throw to prevent death when they begin their turn at -1 hp.

Maybe. At that point, anyone can just walk up and kill them anyway.

For unconscious PC's, it stinks, but hey. True resurrection, etc. are all there, and in addition, you have the healing spells to restore you before death comes.

Dracomortis
2010-03-21, 02:59 PM
You currently have the Rank 4 items listed as being level 0. They should be level 1 items, no?

Drolyt
2010-03-21, 03:17 PM
Maybe. At that point, anyone can just walk up and kill them anyway.

For unconscious PC's, it stinks, but hey. True resurrection, etc. are all there, and in addition, you have the healing spells to restore you before death comes.

True, but it still seems powerful given how cheap it is. How is the Save DC calculated?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-03-21, 03:28 PM
True, but it still seems powerful given how cheap it is. How is the Save DC calculated?

The Save DC is 10 + (1/2 [Ranks in Craft skill -2]) + Int modifier, putting it roughly in line with 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability modifier.

It's also supposed to be cheap...Alchemy should remain viable at any level, without eating to far into a players wealth. Although perhaps I should raise the price to 500gp...

Temotei
2010-03-21, 03:29 PM
True, but it still seems powerful given how cheap it is. How is the Save DC calculated?
Exactly. Speaking of which, 2 level 1 items are now up: Alchemist's Fire and Spiderweed Root. Also, save DCs are 10 + 1/2 (ranks in Craft [Alchemy] -3) + Intelligence modifier. This is approximately the same as 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + Intelligence modifier, but based on skill at Alchemy rather than simply on level.

Like that.

Ninja'd. Apparently, Djinn took levels in the same class as me. :smalltongue:

Drolyt
2010-03-21, 03:52 PM
The Save DC is 10 + (1/2 [Ranks in Craft skill -2]) + Int modifier, putting it roughly in line with 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability modifier.

It's also supposed to be cheap...Alchemy should remain viable at any level, without eating to far into a players wealth. Although perhaps I should raise the price to 500gp...

Oh, it should be cheap, but given how cheap it is you have to consider the power level. A lot of classes have Craft as a class skill (although technically you need to have at least one level in a spellcasting class for alchemy) so at the cost of 1 skill point every level you greatly enhance your versatility. It would be different if you had to take a class called Alchemist or something, but this way it could become a skill that everyone needs to take.

Temotei
2010-03-21, 03:59 PM
Oh, it should be cheap, but given how cheap it is you have to consider the power level. A lot of classes have Craft as a class skill (although technically you need to have at least one level in a spellcasting class for alchemy) so at the cost of 1 skill point every level you greatly enhance your versatility. It would be different if you had to take a class called Alchemist or something, but this way it could become a skill that everyone needs to take.

Doesn't every class have Craft as a class skill?

Drolyt
2010-03-21, 04:16 PM
Doesn't every class have Craft as a class skill?

Almost every class, I'm fairly sure there are a couple prestige classes that don't though. And there is still the fact that you need a spellcaster level, although honestly I usually waive that in my games.

herbe
2010-03-22, 01:27 PM
Breathstealer
A potent yet invisible poison, Breathstealer quickly leeches life out of its victims.
Level 9 Alchemical Item
Cost: 100gp
Brewing: Craft (Alchemy) DC 36
Crafting Time: 1 hour
Activation: 1 standard action
Delay: Instantaneous
Effect: To activate a vial of Breathstealer, you must succeed on a ranged touch attack against your target (or against AC 5 to hit the square your target occupies). Alternatively, you may simply open the vial, although this is a dangerous method. Breathstealer spreads out in a 15 foot radius from the point of impact, and forms a cloud of colorless, odorless vapors. Any creature beginning its turn within the cloud (or passing through the cloud during its turn) must make a Fortitude save or fall unconscious. If a creature is already unconscious when its turn begins, it must make a second Fortitude save or immediately drop to -1 hit points. If it is already below -1 hit points when its turn begins, it must make a third saving throw or die instantly.

Overlapping areas of Breathstealer do not require a creature to make multiple saves: the poison is potent enough that multiple instances of it do little to worsen the effect.
Duration: 5 rounds i surely misread something however i dont find it. Fortitude save against X? and unconscious for how long and how long breathstealer remain in active(i thin it was 5 round..)?

Even so
i like your work, well done and go on

Zexion
2010-03-22, 02:27 PM
This. Is. Awesome. Anyone want a Philosepher's Stone?

Drolyt
2010-03-22, 03:09 PM
i surely misread something however i dont find it. Fortitude save against X? and unconscious for how long and how long breathstealer remain in active(i thin it was 5 round..)?

Even so
i like your work, well done and go on

I asked about save DC too, the answer is apparently:
The Save DC is 10 + (1/2 [Ranks in Craft skill -2]) + Int modifier, putting it roughly in line with 10 + 1/2 HD + Ability modifier.

No I don't know where that is in the op. Maybe the op forgot to mention it.

Temotei
2010-03-22, 06:17 PM
Instead of saying "1 attack action," how about saying something like "On hit" or "Attack?" Since there's no such thing as an attack action, I was confused until I looked up to see the substances that had it as the action required. Nevertheless, I think it would be easier to just say "Attack."

imp_fireball
2010-03-22, 06:59 PM
I would like toask if you intend to create a potency rating system for how potent the effect is with the ability to increase it for certain affects, similar to the way psionics has augmentations and magic has metamagic feats.

SRD already has that, but it's an epic feat... I think. Or Epic crafting.

Yah, obviously there's a lot that could be done with alchemy.

One thing you need to list though in the OP is how many times you can imbibe a chemical/herb and how it is transmitted (inhaled, contact, ingested, via wounding, etc.; I'd go with poison rules for transmission).

If you want to get slightly more complicated, you could state how long it lasts for unused and then how long it lasts for in optimal conditions (optimal could be something like stored in an ice box - which is the equivalent of refrigeration in the middle ages).

Personally, I'd like to see a chemically augmented barbarian - like the ogre the goblin alchemist from warcraft 3 rides.


True but things like Alchemists Fire/Ice, Acid, Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, should.

Also, acid vials.

ForzaFiori
2010-03-22, 08:04 PM
Why is it that you can find herbs in the wild, but not alchemical ingredients? half the time, they're similar things. Maybe a harder check (alchemical things tend to be a bit odd), but I don't see why you can buy them in a market but not find them. The shops must get them from somewhere.

Also, I would put something in somewhere that without a class that gives you access to them, you cant use anything above a lv. 0, maybe lv. 1 substance, or else everyone is just gonna take ranks in Alchemy or Herbalism.

Finally, shouldn't it be profession (herbalIST) and not HerbalISM? Usually it gives what the person is called, not the field their in. Just a small nit-pick.

Temotei
2010-03-22, 08:49 PM
Finally, shouldn't it be profession (herbalIST) and not HerbalISM? Usually it gives what the person is called, not the field their in. Just a small nit-pick.

The only one I can think of right now that works the way it's written now is Profession (Butcher), which is essentially taking levels in barbarian anyway.

ForzaFiori
2010-03-22, 09:57 PM
The only one I can think of right now that works the way it's written now is Profession (Butcher), which is essentially taking levels in barbarian anyway.

That, also, is the title of the person. Its learning the profession of how to be a butcher. Just like Prof (Sailor) instead of (Sailing), or Prof (smith) instead of (Smithing). The Craft skill uses the verb (or whatever part of speech it would be), the Profession uses the noun.

Temotei
2010-03-22, 10:00 PM
That, also, is the title of the person. Its learning the profession of how to be a butcher. Just like Prof (Sailor) instead of (Sailing), or Prof (smith) instead of (Smithing). The Craft skill uses the verb (or whatever part of speech it would be), the Profession uses the noun.

Butcher is a verb.

EDIT: ...as well as a noun. Which is why I said it works the way Djinn has Profession down.

Drolyt
2010-03-22, 10:16 PM
You two confuse me. You can be a butcher, or you can butcher someone. What the hell does it matter?

ForzaFiori
2010-03-22, 10:18 PM
I was just letting Djinn know that usually, profession skills have the title of the person in the parenthesis, rather than the title of the profession (IE, Herbalist, instead of Herbalism, Sailor instead of Sailing, Chef/Cook instead of Cooking, Tailor instead of Sewing)

Butcher is special because, in that one case, the two words are the same. You are a butcher, and so you butcher, rather than a sailor sailing, a chef cooking, or a tailor sewing.

Temotei
2010-03-22, 10:19 PM
You two confuse me. You can be a butcher, or you can butcher someone. What the hell does it matter?

When you have Profession (Butcher), it's the noun, but when you use Craft (Butcher) (seriously, stay with me on this), it's the verb form.

I didn't even notice the ninja commie bastard.

Note: I have nothing against communists or bastard sons. Ninjas, on the other hand, shall fall to the pirates and pirinjas! :smallbiggrin:

Dracomortis
2010-03-22, 10:52 PM
You currently have the Rank 4 items listed as being level 0. They should be level 1 items, no?

Reposting this, because it seems to have been buried beneath other discussions at the time.

Drolyt
2010-03-22, 11:35 PM
I was just letting Djinn know that usually, profession skills have the title of the person in the parenthesis, rather than the title of the profession (IE, Herbalist, instead of Herbalism, Sailor instead of Sailing, Chef/Cook instead of Cooking, Tailor instead of Sewing)

Butcher is special because, in that one case, the two words are the same. You are a butcher, and so you butcher, rather than a sailor sailing, a chef cooking, or a tailor sewing.

Rather, a Tailor Tailors, but I suppose that's beside the point. I don't think it should be a profession skill anyways, Herbalism and Alchemy should probably just be their own skills, and then there could be an Alchemist class which would be the only class to have them as class skills. Thus we could have really powerful items but only dedicated Alchemists could use the most powerful ones (it would still be useful even as a cross class skill though, especially if the recipes are nice and powerful). Of course the Alchemist class would need other powers, hmm...

Vauron
2010-03-23, 09:09 AM
You might want try to find "Alchemy and Herbalists", a 3.0 third party book from Bastion Press. I don't know if it was updated to 3.5, but I'm mainly suggesting it as a source to draw ideas from, since the subject matter is the same thing as what you are doing.

Drolyt
2010-03-23, 09:37 AM
You might want try to find "Alchemy and Herbalists", a 3.0 third party book from Bastion Press. I don't know if it was updated to 3.5, but I'm mainly suggesting it as a source to draw ideas from, since the subject matter is the same thing as what you are doing.

As just a general idea, how did that book handle it? Just adding more recipes that require higher ranks in the Alchemy skill? Creating Alchemist classes/Prestige Classes? What is even in said book?

sigurd
2010-03-23, 02:03 PM
There is a version of the book for 3.5.

In general its far more than a list of recipes. It has a system of Black,Red and White Alchemists. A fair section on Herbs, including a catalogue of plants. I found it fun to read.

Black = Transmuters looking for perfect materials - make magic weapons at higher levels.

Red = Combining of Opposites - a little bit of the other two types

White = Medicines (life & Death)

Sigurd

The school is interesting but I didn't use it.

Cieyrin
2010-03-23, 03:23 PM
Rather, a Tailor Tailors, but I suppose that's beside the point. I don't think it should be a profession skill anyways, Herbalism and Alchemy should probably just be their own skills, and then there could be an Alchemist class which would be the only class to have them as class skills. Thus we could have really powerful items but only dedicated Alchemists could use the most powerful ones (it would still be useful even as a cross class skill though, especially if the recipes are nice and powerful). Of course the Alchemist class would need other powers, hmm...

Like making them their own skills would stop people from picking it up, as they could just Factotum + Able Learner their way in and/or replace Factotum with Exemplar.

Anyways, I don't really see the big problem with making alchemy freely available, as the money and time involved with making them on a consistent basis should be enough of a hurdle to prevent from becoming an EveryAdventurer skill. As it's designed, it looks to me to be more of a Skill Monkey type skill to pick up, as characters with less skill points have necessary skills to pick up. Either that or something a Wizard could pick up besides the whole package of Knowledges.

Also, this system looks like you could drop it pretty conveniently into an Iron Heroes game without too much fuss, while keeping the mystique and chaos of magic far out there at the same time. Me likes this more and more. =3

Drolyt
2010-03-23, 04:42 PM
Like making them their own skills would stop people from picking it up, as they could just Factotum + Able Learner their way in and/or replace Factotum with Exemplar.
That's quite a bit of work just to get a crafting skill.

Anyways, I don't really see the big problem with making alchemy freely available, as the money and time involved with making them on a consistent basis should be enough of a hurdle to prevent from becoming an EveryAdventurer skill. As it's designed, it looks to me to be more of a Skill Monkey type skill to pick up, as characters with less skill points have necessary skills to pick up. Either that or something a Wizard could pick up besides the whole package of Knowledges.
Of course it should be freely available, but if we want Alchemy to be useful at the high end we also have to consider that doing so would make it one of the most powerful skills. When you think about, skillmonkeys are actually the class that benefits the least because they already have too many skills they can't afford. What exactly does a Fighter normally spend his skill points on? How about spellcasters, do they really need anything besides Concentration and maybe spellcraft? At any rate I'm assuming a hypothetical Alchemist class would have Artificer like abilities that allow the class to make alchemical items with little time and cost.

Also, this system looks like you could drop it pretty conveniently into an Iron Heroes game without too much fuss, while keeping the mystique and chaos of magic far out there at the same time. Me likes this more and more. =3
I agree with this part.

Cieyrin
2010-03-24, 03:29 PM
That's quite a bit of work just to get a crafting skill.


An even easier method of getting in would probably be Aerenal Focus, now that I think about it. Either that or Human Paragon.


Of course it should be freely available, but if we want Alchemy to be useful at the high end we also have to consider that doing so would make it one of the most powerful skills. When you think about, skillmonkeys are actually the class that benefits the least because they already have too many skills they can't afford. What exactly does a Fighter normally spend his skill points on? How about spellcasters, do they really need anything besides Concentration and maybe spellcraft? At any rate I'm assuming a hypothetical Alchemist class would have Artificer like abilities that allow the class to make alchemical items with little time and cost.

Fighters? Well i suppose that could work but then I guess we have different play styles, as I always seem to be running out of skill points before I run out of skills that I want to pick up, even when I don't play a Skill Monkey.

Actually, this seems like it would be the province of Druids, as Profession(Herbalist) naturally dovetails with that. I could see a Ranger or even a Barbarian possibly dabbling in these areas as well. I just don't think we'd find a Pally or a Fighter wanting to deal with Alchemy Labs and gardening but that's just me. These are all RP reasons, I know, but I still don't see it as a big enough deal to warrant restricting it. I mean, Iaijutsu Focus and UMD are powerful skills as well. Sure, they're restrictive, but they're much more flexible than Craft(Alchemy) or Profession(Herbalist) are, as you can do them now, rather than have to go through the crafting process.

Drolyt
2010-03-24, 03:55 PM
An even easier method of getting in would probably be Aerenal Focus, now that I think about it. Either that or Human Paragon.



Fighters? Well i suppose that could work but then I guess we have different play styles, as I always seem to be running out of skill points before I run out of skills that I want to pick up, even when I don't play a Skill Monkey.

Actually, this seems like it would be the province of Druids, as Profession(Herbalist) naturally dovetails with that. I could see a Ranger or even a Barbarian possibly dabbling in these areas as well. I just don't think we'd find a Pally or a Fighter wanting to deal with Alchemy Labs and gardening but that's just me. These are all RP reasons, I know, but I still don't see it as a big enough deal to warrant restricting it. I mean, Iaijutsu Focus and UMD are powerful skills as well. Sure, they're restrictive, but they're much more flexible than Craft(Alchemy) or Profession(Herbalist) are, as you can do them now, rather than have to go through the crafting process.

Iaijustsu Focus? What's that? At any rate I always have way too many skill points as a Wizard, I usually play a Human Wizard with 18 Int to start so 7 skill points per level, more at levels 8+. Concentration, Spellcraft, maybe Use Magic Device although my charisma usually makes that kinda prohibitive, maybe some languages, and the rest gets dumped into Knowledge skills unless I need something else for a PrC. UMD is also heavily affected by how generous the DM is with consumables, and that's really the only skill more useful than one that allows access to powerful items like these.

As for a Fighter that wants to deal with Alchemy labs, a couple of classes from BoVD/BoED come to mind, there was a good version and an evil version and they essentially took these potions to make themselves stronger warriors. I like Gishes better anyways.

imp_fireball
2010-03-24, 05:20 PM
Rather, a Tailor Tailors, but I suppose that's beside the point. I don't think it should be a profession skill anyways, Herbalism and Alchemy should probably just be their own skills, and then there could be an Alchemist class which would be the only class to have them as class skills. Thus we could have really powerful items but only dedicated Alchemists could use the most powerful ones (it would still be useful even as a cross class skill though, especially if the recipes are nice and powerful). Of course the Alchemist class would need other powers, hmm...

Probably a better idea to make the alchemist class a 1 level dip PRC that has alchemy and herbalism as class skills and nothing else. /sarcasm

You're trying to discourage alchemy from being an overpowered skill, but skills are already unbalanced anyway - spellcraft is used for epic spells, psicraft for psionics - only a few knowledge skills actually see use and for everything else there's gather information. And keep profession (herbalist) - that's fine.... although really what it should do is just give bonus gp above regular professions, but only for the purpose of reducing gp cost on craft (alchemy) checks (but not time, even though time is relevant to money).


You two confuse me. You can be a butcher, or you can butcher someone. What the hell does it matter?

Clearly, arguing about grammar is more important than working something fresh into a tabletop game.

Temotei
2010-03-24, 06:27 PM
Probably a better idea to make the alchemist class a 1 level dip PRC that has alchemy and herbalism as class skills and nothing else. /sarcasm

You're trying to discourage alchemy from being an overpowered skill, but skills are already unbalanced anyway - spellcraft is used for epic spells, psicraft for psionics - only a few knowledge skills actually see use and for everything else there's gather information. And keep profession (herbalist) - that's fine.... although really what it should do is just give bonus gp above regular professions, but only for the purpose of reducing gp cost on craft (alchemy) checks (but not time, even though time is relevant to money).

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8119102&postcount=24).

The one skill not on his list is autohypnosis. That deserves a high spot.


Clearly, arguing about grammar is more important than working something fresh into a tabletop game.

It was originally a small nitpick, which grew into a joking sort of nitpick type thing. :smallamused:

All Profession skills have a specific format and all Craft skills have a specific format. Djinn formatted his Profession skills as Craft skills, which, considering the size of this, is understandable and definitely forgivable.

Set
2010-03-24, 08:37 PM
Very cool stuff! I'm a big fan of alchemy, and am always excited to see new concoctions.

Sources of core alchemy;
I made a list for my own use of places to find Alchemical stuff (I was playing a Halfling Ranger with the Grenadier feat (PHB2) and the Shaped Splash feat (Races of Eberron)). I haven't done other equipment 'though.

Places to check for Alchemy stuff;

PHB 3.5 (p 70-71, 128-129)
Acid
Alchemist's Fire
Antitoxin
Smokestick
Sunrod
Tanglefoot Bag
Thunderstone
Tindertwig

Book of Vile Darkness (p 41-44
Feather Powder
Festering Bomb
Weeping Stone
Agony (Liquid Pain)
Baccaran
Devilweed
Luhix
Mordayne Vapore (Dreammist)
Mushroom Powder
Redflower Leaves
Sannish
Terran Brandy
Vodare

Libris Mortis (p 73-74)
Brittlebone
Embalming Fire
Ghostoil
Liquid Night

Races of the Dragon (p 122-123) *No Craft DCs listed*
Bitterleaf Oil
Ditherbomb (strong, weak or wyrm)
Fire Beetle Lamp
Sundark Goggles

Races of the Wild (p 168)
Leafweave Armor (also requires Craft (armorsmithing))

Races of Stone (p 159-161)
Blasting Pellets
Blister Oil
Hearthfire
Spiderlily Essence

Complete Mage (p 134-135)
Auran Mask
Crackle Powder
Fast Torch
Screaming Flask
Weeping Flask

Complete Adventurer (p 118-122)
Blend Cream
Focusing Candle
Catstink
Fareye Oil
Flash Pellet
Freeglide
Hawk's Ointment
Healer's Balm
Keenear Powder
Lockslip Grease
Nature's Draught
Softfoot
Suregrip
Antitoxin Capsule
Ironman Capsule
Leap Capsule
Stability Capsule
Strongarm Capsule
Swiftstride Capsule
Ghostblight
Quickflame
Quickfrost
Quickspark
Quicksilver

Draconomicon (p 116-117) *requires Dragoncrafter feat*
Blood Elixir

Lords of Madness (p 114-115) *requires Grell Alchemy feat*
Grell Crystal
Lightning Lance (magic item, requires Alchemy)
Greater Lightning Lance (magic item, requires Alchemy)
Silver Spear (magic item, requires Alchemy)

Heroes of Battle (p 134-137)
Acid Stone
Alchemist's Stone
Holy/Unholy Stone? (should require a priest, not an alchemist)
Tanglefoot Shot

Stormwrack (p 108)
Stinkpot

Frostburn (p 78-79)
Armor Insultation
Freeze Powder
Frostbite Salve
Ice Chalk
Melt Powder
Polar Skin
Razor Ice Powder
Whale Grease

Sandstorm (p 101-103)
Armorbright
Blackeye
Deep Draught
Ironthorn Extract
Keepcool Salve
Shapesand
Slumber Sand
Sunshade Lotion

Special: Oleum (no Alchemy Craft DC, but it seems like it should be craftable)

Arms & Equipment Guide (p 32-35) *some repeated in Cadv*
Bladefire
Acid Bullet
Flame Bullet
Focusing Candle
Restful Candle
Clearbreath
Darkvision Powder
Defoliator
Dehydrated Food
Dwarfblind
Farflame Oil
Fleetfoot
Ghostoil
Gravebane
Hawk’s Ointment
Instant Rope
Longbreath
Motelight
Nature’s Draught
Polar Skin
Signal Torch
Sparkstone
Stonebreaker Acid
Verminbane
Vicious Bleeder

Savage Species (p 46-48)
Breathing Mask
Flashtube
Frostfire
Sculpter’s Slime

Eberron Campaign Setting (p 120-121)
Acidic Fire
Alchemist’s Frost
Alchemist’s Spark
Noxious Smokestick

Magic of Eberron (p 139-140) *no Alchemy Craft DCs*
Bloodspike (defiling)
Bloodspike (glowbug)
Bloodspike (spatter)
Bloodspike (tempo)
Bloodspike (thickener)

Faiths of Eberron (p 153-154) *no Alchemy Craft DCs*
Breath of the Devourer
Euphoric Sacrament
Flayskin
Mordrei’in
Silverburn

Oriental Adventures (p 78)
Eggshell Grenades (dust, flashpowder, pepper, poison smoke)
Flash Paper (moeragara)
Jade Powder
Liquid Smoke (ekitai kemuri)
Sleeping Fire (hinemuri)

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p 96-97)
Alchemical Sleep Gas
Disappearing Ink
Scentbreaker

Dungeonscape (p 34-37)
Acid Neutralizer
Bottled Air
Firmament Stone
Ghostwall Shellac
Lava Stones
Lockslip
Trollbane

Drow of the Underdark (p 93-94)
Bile Droppings
Darkvision Powder
Dwarfblind Stone
Shedden
Spelunker's Oil
Stoneburn Acid
Vilegrip


Dragon magazine 280, article Better Living Through Alchemy, has some great stuff. Issue 301 also has a large article on Alchemy, but I don't recall it specifically. Quite a few (perhaps even all of them) seem to be reprinted in the Dragon Compendium.


Places checked;
PHB 3.5 (p 70-71, 128-129)
Book of Vile Darkness (p 41)
Libris Mortis (p 73-74)
Races of the Dragon (p 122-123)
Complete Mage (p 134-135)
Complete Adventurer (p 118-122) quite a lot of ‘em
Draconomicon (p 116-117) requires Dragoncrafter feat (only 1 item)
Lords of Madness (p 114-115) requires Grell Alchemy feat (only 3 items)
Heroes of Battle (p 134-137) alchemical siege shot
Stormwrack (p 108)
Frostburn (p 78-79)
Sandstorm (p 101-103)
Arms & Equipment Guide (p 32-35) quite a few, some repeated in CA
Savage Species (p 46-48)
Faiths of Eberron (p 153-154)
Eberron Campaign Setting (p 120-121)
Magic of Eberron (p 139-140)
Oriental Adventures (p 78)
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (p 96-97)
Drow of the Underdark (p 93-94)

Of 3rd party stuff, other than the Dragon Compendium mentioned above, the Kingdoms of Kalamar Players Guide (p 113-116) had a nice selection.

Alchemy & Herbalists, IMO, was terribly disappointing. Very, very few of the items within seemed to work with the Alchemy skill by itself. Instead of expanding the use of alchemy from the core rules, it seemed designed to completely replace it with a new system usable by the three core classes introduced in the book. (The Pathfinder Alchemist, unfortunately, is the same thing, having a bunch of powers and abilities that have almost nothing to do with the craft - alchemy skill.)

Random minor alchemical items that could scale up;
alchemical versions of cold and electricity damage,
some sort of itching powder (-2 to certain checks for 1 minute?),
some sort of grease slick / instant ice-slick effect (5 ft. square grease effect for 2d4 rounds?),
'alkahest' or 'alchemical acid' that does continuing damage like alchemical fire,
some sort of stinkpot that causes sickness to normal targets and can cause nausea to those with Scent if they blow a save (as well as blinding their ability to track via scent for X amount of time),
a glowing liquid that splashes onto a target and 'paints' it like faerie fire for X number of rounds,
an oil that temporarily hardens wood, allowing for the crafting of darkwood armor and weapons,
an oil that permanantly hardens bone, allowing a culture that lacks metal (or won't use it for religious reasons) to craft armor and weapons from bone,
a salve that protects against the effects of environmental cold (cold resist 5, but only vs. nonlethal damage from cold, +4 to Fort checks to avoid same),
a salve that protects against the effects of environmental heat (same deal, but reversed),
a special oil that you can soak a cloth in, and then place over your mouth, allowing you to hold your breath for 4x Con rounds underwater, as it alchemically filters oxygen out of water to sustain you, popular with pearl divers and shipwreck salvagers,
a metallic-colored dye that you can soak normal clothing in, to give it the consistency of fine wire, giving it the same stats as Cloth Armor (and requiring a proficiency to avoid Armor Check Penalties applying to attack rolls, just as if it was now Light Armor), but retaining it's normal appearance as Traveler's Clothes or a Royal Outfit or whatever,
'alchemical caltrops,' a flask of freezing liquid that you splash into a square and it forms into steel-hard icicles that point upwards, acting as caltrops for X number of rounds until they melt away.

Cieyrin
2010-03-25, 02:31 PM
Lots of Alchemy Pricing

Nice selection, but the Races of the Dragon alchemicals do have craft DCs, they're just in the skill section under Craft(Alchemy) :smalltongue:

Set
2010-03-25, 04:24 PM
Nice selection, but the Races of the Dragon alchemicals do have craft DCs, they're just in the skill section under Craft(Alchemy) :smalltongue:

Awesome, thanks!

Sydonai
2010-03-27, 11:05 PM
This. Is. Awesome. Anyone want a Philosepher's Stone?

The philosophers stone is a minor artifact in the DMG.

Oh, and take a look at the poisons for proper price/dc/damage scale. The planar poisons are somewhat expensive, but worth it.

Drolyt
2010-03-28, 10:06 AM
The philosophers stone is a minor artifact in the DMG.

Oh, and take a look at the poisons for proper price/dc/damage scale. The planar poisons are somewhat expensive, but worth it.

A minor artifact that doesn't really do what the Philosopher's Stone is supposed to.

Keljoric Tulkas
2013-02-20, 09:11 PM
I got all excited when i came across this post... then saw it died years ago and got incredibly sad..

Although I will add that for a low magic campaign I wanted to come up with some sort of healing so I made up some "pain killers"

Light Pain Relief - 1d6 + 1/2 per rank in alchemy temporary HP, last 5 rounds
Med Pain Relief - 2d6 + 1/2 per rank of alchemy temporary HP, last 5 rounds
Major Pain Relief - 3d6 + 1/2 per rank of alchemy temporary HP, last 5 rounds

HP gained this way are lost first.

If more then 3 potions are consumed within 24hr the character experiances "Addiction Withdrawl" and sufers a -1 to an attribute (decided on roll of 1d6)

I'd love to see this revived as I am currently looking to make a Fighter/Alchemist build

zegram 33
2013-02-22, 04:48 PM
hmn....
awesome.
many moons ago, i started a kind of....spy, class, which included my take on alchemy.
what i would suggest, is the ability to make all the various poisons in different forms: ie: ingestion, stabbing, gas, contact.

ingestion would be say....-5 to crafting dc and +5 to save dc

stabbing (cant remember what its officially called, when you have to stab a guy to trigger it) would be as written

contact would be +5 to craft dc and -5 to save dc, as would gas.

gas would spread from impact in an aoe, and basically just give yu more options when it came to combat: sleeping tonic to thin the weaker members of a group? done. trying to sneak into a castle? put a contact sleeping potion on a door handle. and so on and so forth

additionally, id add some more "utility" applications.
i called them "philters", they were all on contact requiring a full-round action to apply, and it was things like "deals 1d4 acid damage, but ignoring hardness on unattended objects" and at higher levels ignoring magical protection (the idea being you pour it on a lock instead of lockpicking if your in a hurry). others were things like a phial of liquid that could be poured into your mortar to replicate the effects of scrying spells, that sort of thing.

additionally, a few more items (like alchemical fire)

stuff like....a powder bag you can throw in a fire to replicate the "pyrotechnics" spell
a greasy substance that replicates....grease but also causes alchemical fire (specifically) to deal damage every turn to whoever is greased until they pass a reflex save to put it out.

that kind of jazz

dunno if that was helpful, but i hope so.

EDIT: oh damn, its from yonks ago
my bad