Class suggestions for a levels 7/3 to 9/3?

[randomhero00]

That is, We're starting at 7th level, we get 3 gestalt levels. We're only playing this game for a short while, so I only need to worry about the build for a few levels. Probably only till 9th. Its in a super high optimized group and we like to use interesting tactics and sometimes our encounters differ from the norm...for instance, (very rarely but it happens) the DM throws something at us that is unwinnable and we have to escape (its a short game... we like it). The DMs words "Go ahead, gimme your best characters and break the game!"

Not locate city bomb break, or pun pun break. But dragon wrought kobold ur-priest "break" (which I wouldn't quite consider break but lets not go there) is fine. Dragonwrought kobold doing the ritual for sorc levels would be borderline and something I'd have to ask the DM about for instance. Not sure about StP Erudite as I'm not familiar with them. Basic common sense still applies, no super cheese.

Suggestions? I'd prefer a spell casting class, but am open to ideas. Usually I'm decent at CO but am not used to gestalt nor the specific level range. So all sorts of different options have opened up, especially since I only need the class for such a small window. Plus it has to be somewhat decent at escaping and surviving, more so than normal (well, if it was a melee character anyway, not really for a wizard with fly and invis :P)

Thanks.

[Temotei]

In before factotum.

[randomhero00]

In before factotum.

Really? I heard they were nice of course, but I didn't think they were super optimized nice. With 3 gestalt levels that leaves me so much wiggle room for early entry to so many ridiculous PrCs.

[Tavar]

Any particular level's that the gestalt levels fall? Ie, does it go 1//1, 2//2, 3//3. 4//3, or some other pattern?

[randomhero00]

Any particular level's that the gestalt levels fall? Ie, does it go 1//1, 2//2, 3//3. 4//3, or some other pattern?

Very good question. He didn't specify. I'm guessing that pattern. Sorry I couldn't be more specific. I'll email him. Is there a a particular reason with a class your thinking of?

[Tavar]

Well, different patterns would lend themselves to different builds. For instance, different skills totals, or you could make it so you don't lose caster levels with certain classes.

[randomhero00]

Well, different patterns would lend themselves to different builds. For instance, different skills totals, or you could make it so you don't lose caster levels with certain classes.

Which way would be best? So I can make a case when I ask.

[Douglas]

If you're allowed to, say, state that your gestalt levels are levels 1, 2, and 6, you could take a casting PrC that loses one level of casting and gestalt that one level with a level in the base casting class, keeping your casting at full progression despite your choice of PrC. If they have to be levels 1, 2, and 3, you wouldn't be able to do that.

[randomhero00]

If you're allowed to, say, state that your gestalt levels are levels 1, 2, and 6, you could take a casting PrC that loses one level of casting and gestalt that one level with a level in the base casting class, keeping your casting at full progression despite your choice of PrC. If they have to be levels 1, 2, and 3, you wouldn't be able to do that.

Ahh I see, clever. All I was thinking about was getting to the PrC earlier. Like I said, I think of designing them as if I was starting at level 1 and heading all the way up to 20. Glad I asked for help.

[Tavar]

I'd say that the most reasonable patterns are 3,5,7 or 2,4,6. The best is probably 5,6,7, but it's also abusive, and lopsided.

Probably the best thing you could do with your levels would be to use them to qualify for a Dual progression class, but that probably won't fly. If you can, make sure to use either one of the incarnum or Warlock dual progressions; the Dm might allow them because they're usually not that great, so it's not a huge boost in raw power.

[randomhero00]

He responded; it looks like anything goes.

Why Incarnum or Warlock PrCs?

[Douglas]

Standard DMM(Persist) ClericZilla... turned up to 11:

Human or Strongheart Halfling, depending on whether you want to be medium or large when you cast Righteous Might.
Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) for the first 5 levels. Take the Destroy Undead alternate class feature from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft pages 206-207. Take Undeath and Planning as your domains.
At level 5, continue Cloistered Cleric and take a gestalt level in Death Delver from Heroes of Horror, gaining Rebuke Undead.
At level 8, start Sacred Exorcist, gaining Turn Undead.
Put your other two gestalt levels wherever you like, they're secondary and not necessary for the main thing.
Take 2 flaws. For the bonus feats, take Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell).
For your racial bonus feat, level 1 feat, and level 3, 6, and 9 feats, take Extra Turning.

You will end up with 6 copies of Extra Turning. Also get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium) and one Nightstick. This will get you 3 base + 24 Extra Turning + 2 Holy Symbol + 4 Nightstick = 33 + charisma modifier uses of each of Turn Undead, Rebuke Undead, and Destroy Undead. That's 99 + 3*charisma turn-equivalents to fuel Divine Metamagic. With a +2 charisma bonus, that's enough to Persist 15 spells. Have fun.

Oh, don't forget to stock up on a Ring of Enduring Arcana (Complete Mage) to make your buffs harder to dispel. Sadly, most of the other caster level boosters either require feats or are beyond your budget.

[randomhero00]

Thanks for the detailed post, and something to consider. But I wouldn't be able to cast the best buff spell, Righteous Might until level 9 (and by then the game would be nearly over). The only other good one to persist would be divine power (doesn't seem worth it but I could be wrong). Maybe I'm missing a few key spells to persist (castable at 7th level)?

[Douglas]

Maybe I'm missing a few key spells to persist (castable at 7th level)?
A "few", yes.

Divine Favor
Divine Power
Bless
Prayer
Invisibility Purge
Freedom of Movement

Now let's branch out from core into the Spell Compendium:
Healing Lorecall
Grace
Ring of Blades
Mass Lesser Vigor (yay, unlimited out of combat healing)
Lesser Holy Transformation
Recitation
Greater Resistance (you don't actually need Persist on this one, it's 24 hours already)

If your DM says touch spells qualify for Persist (debatable, depending on whether he considers it to be a fixed 0 range from your touching appendage or a varying range depending on reach from your space):
Shield of Faith
Protection From <alignment>
Death Ward
Air Walk
Neutralize Poison (or Delay Poison if you're running out of 4th level slots)
Spell Immunity
Conviction
(Lesser) Vigor
Brambles (or Spikes)
(Greater) Blindsight
Shield of Warding
Sheltered Vitality

There are quite a few more in other books as well. I remember finding some decent ones in PHB2 a while back, even if your DM rules out touch spells for Persist. There are also a few more spells even in core and Spell Compendium that I did not least but might be useful anyway depending on the campaign and/or your remaining options for more buff spells.

When you get to level 9 and 5th level spells, don't forget Righteous Wrath of the Faithful in addition to Righteous Might.

Check the Team Solars link in my sig for a really comprehensive list of Persistable or long duration buffs that stack. A lot of them are too high level for you, not on the cleric list, or require DM approval of "touch" as a "fixed" range, but there should be more than enough to take every use of Persist you've got regardless.

[Tavar]

Well, a Main concern most have is power in return for nothing, which gestalt dual progression tends to lead to. The Incarnum or Warlock dual progression classes don't give that much power, so they're more likely to be allowed. Looks like you aren't going to run into that problem, though.

[Jack_Simth]

Thanks for the detailed post, and something to consider. But I wouldn't be able to cast the best buff spell, Righteous Might until level 9 (and by then the game would be nearly over). The only other good one to persist would be divine power (doesn't seem worth it but I could be wrong). Maybe I'm missing a few key spells to persist (castable at 7th level)?
Yes.

Mass Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) - Fast Healing 1. For multiple party members (at this caster level, you'll need 2-3 castings to cover the entire party... but well worth it)

Recitation (Spell Compendium) - +2 (or +3, if you can convert them to your deity) Luck to AC, saves, and attack.

Elation (Book of Exalted Deeds) - +2 Morale to Str and Dex, +5 foot to your move.

Prayer (PHB)

Bless (PHB)

Basically, if you stack enough X-random spells with different bonus types, you get the party WIZARD hitting things like an independant FIGHTER would.

Oh yes, and this is ignoring the personal spells, like Divine Favor, that make a Cleric a 'Zilla.

[Glimbur]

Well, a Main concern most have is power in return for nothing, which gestalt dual progression tends to lead to. The Incarnum or Warlock dual progression classes don't give that much power, so they're more likely to be allowed. Looks like you aren't going to run into that problem, though.

Another perk of Incarnum is that it scales (slightly) with hit dice, in that as you get more levels you get the ability to put more essentia into one receptacle.

[oxinabox]

Lets see if i can remember how to do this.

A gish.
Focuses on Buffing him self up then kill things with his great sword.
While whereing armour.

Race: Aesh Rakju Illuminum: Use STR to detrimine bonus spells. also +2 CL (at lvl 2)

Abilities: STR is by far you most important stat.
INT comes in artound 3rd, Just keep it high enough that you can castall your spells, don't worry about saving thows, you're only buffing yourself

1 Wizard (Sp Abjuration) //fighter. Feat: combat casting, Bonus Feat: Power Attack
2 Wizard // fighter Bonus Feat: ??
3 wizard // warblade. Feat: Improved Power Sigel (and additional +1 CL)
4 Warblade
5 Spell Sword **
6 Abjurant Champion, Feat:Extend Spell*,
7 Abjurant Champion
8 Jade Pheonix Mage
9 Jade Pheonix Mage


*assuming it's ruled that this stacks with the abjurants champions class feature that "works like extend spell"

**you can now cast in a tistle-down padded, twightlighted mythral fullplate (IIRC)

Use Critical strike (swift action) to boost your self.
at highter lvls use Quickened true strike, and power attack away you whole attack bonus.
don't forget to prepare utility spells.

I's been ages since itouched dnd, esp in a optimising sense. but the above is somehting i would love to play.

[randomhero00]

hehe, guess I missed a few :)

What's the point of Death Delver? I'm not at all familiar.

Should I PrC? Any ideas on using the gestalt levels? I'm liking clericzilla more and more since my party never has tanky OR healy characters (annoying).

Thanks.

Oh and why cloistered cleric? I'm kind of missing out on armor and weapons if want to be a melee cleric. Or does Death delver take care of that?

[Douglas]

What's the point of Death Delver? I'm not at all familiar.
Specifically in the context of this build, Rebuke Undead for more DMM. That's it. That's the one and only reason I put it in there. You also get Deathwatch at will as a swift action Extraordinary ability, and 1 or 2 level 1 spell slots with a very short spell list. You could take a second level in it for immunity to fear effects, but that's easy to get without spending valuable class levels on it and your will save should be rather high anyway.

Oh, and the prereqs are trivial. +2 base will save and some skills you'd probably take anyway.


Should I PrC? Any ideas on using the gestalt levels? I'm liking clericzilla more and more since my party never has tanky OR healy characters (annoying).
It sounds like your DM wants powerful enough characters that he'll probably allow this, so: get "free" Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion)) from the Frog God's Fane location in Complete Scoundrel (costs 2000 gp of your Wealth By Level to stick this in your backstory), and take 2 levels of Divine Oracle at levels 6 and 7. This gets you evasion.

My build as posted already has you going into Sacred Exorcist at level 8, though you don't need to keep going in that for level 9 if you don't want to.


Oh and why cloistered cleric? I'm kind of missing out on armor and weapons if want to be a melee cleric. Or does Death delver take care of that?
Because it gets you lots of benefits and few or no disadvantages. More skill points, knowledge domain (which you might want to give up for free Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion), bardic knowledge, and a few extra spells on your class list, all for the measly cost of a one step hit die reduction and poor BAB that won't matter because you'll have Divine Power all the time. You can deal with the weapon and armor proficiencies with one of your gestalt levels.

Speaking of your gestalt levels, I think a 2 level dip in Fighter would be a good use of the remaining ones not spent on Death Delver. That would get you all the proficiencies you need, plus Power Attack and one other Fighter feat.

[randomhero00]

I had a thought. What about cleric//wizard 3 mystic theurge 4? Sure I miss out on some turn attempts to fuel DMM but how much? Not all that much I don't think? And to boot I now have wizard casting for free. Which I think I can also persist for buffs? Or does it only work on divine? Still, full spell casting progression on both sides.

[olentu]

I had a thought. What about cleric//wizard 3 mystic theurge 4? Sure I miss out on some turn attempts to fuel DMM but how much? Not all that much I don't think? And to boot I now have wizard casting for free. Which I think I can also persist for buffs? Or does it only work on divine? Still, full spell casting progression on both sides.

I recall that divine meta magic was only for divine spells. Though one could probably get around this with the alternative source spell or southern magician feats.

[magic9mushroom]

Super-high optimised without massive shenanigans? Tainted Scholar.

[randomhero00]

I'll bet a cleric//wizard 3 mystic theurge 4 focusing more on quicken cleric spells and casting wizard spells normally in the same round would be pretty sweet though. Could easily persist the best divine buffs, then throw on some wizard buffs and mix it up gish style too when I felt like it. (just not sure about the feats at this level...need to actually work it out, might not have enough turning attempts for it to really work.)


Super-high optimised without massive shenanigans? Tainted Scholar.

The thought had crossed my mind :D

[Gnaeus]

Can you take RHD/LA as one side of the Gestalt? If so that opens a lot of doors. Things like Pixie, or Marrulurk, or template stacking.

[Gnaritas]

I'll bet a cleric//wizard 3 mystic theurge 4 focusing more on quicken cleric spells and casting wizard spells normally in the same round would be pretty sweet though. Could easily persist the best divine buffs, then throw on some wizard buffs and mix it up gish style too when I felt like it. (just not sure about the feats at this level...need to actually work it out, might not have enough turning attempts for it to really work.)


If you take the Undeath Domain and Planning domain you can take 2x Extra Turning, Persistent Spell and DMM. With the stick and symbol you end up with 3+12+3+4=22+Cha.
If you take Quicken it goes down 4 attempts, which i doubt is worth it.
There are plenty of 24 hr or hr/lvl buffs for you to use all those slots for though (Greater Luminous Armor) or spells that you cast as a swift action anyway (Extended Wraithstrike, though i dont think gishing is the way).

Do you know your ability-scores?

[randomhero00]

You will end up with 6 copies of Extra Turning. Also get a Reliquary Holy Symbol (Magic Item Compendium) and one Nightstick. This will get you 3 base + 24 Extra Turning + 2 Holy Symbol + 4 Nightstick = 33 + charisma modifier uses of each of Turn Undead, Rebuke Undead, and Destroy Undead. That's 99 + 3*charisma turn-equivalents to fuel Divine Metamagic. With a +2 charisma bonus, that's enough to Persist 15 spells. Have fun.


eh how does 33 turning attempts become 99 attempts to fuel DMM?


If you take the Undeath Domain and Planning domain you can take 2x Extra Turning, Persistent Spell and DMM. With the stick and symbol you end up with 3+12+3+4=22+Cha.
If you take Quicken it goes down 4 attempts, which i doubt is worth it.
There are plenty of 24 hr or hr/lvl buffs for you to use all those slots for though (Greater Luminous Armor) or spells that you cast as a swift action anyway (Extended Wraithstrike, though i dont think gishing is the way).

Do you know your ability-scores?

Its a 28 or 30 point buy, I forget which. Edit: actually, I spose that would be 2 extra feats. one for DMM and one for quicken. Combine that with even less (8 less I think) attempts...yeah, probably not going to want to do that at this level. Unless I used super cheese and got multiple nightsticks, which I don't think I'm willing to do.


Can you take RHD/LA as one side of the Gestalt? If so that opens a lot of doors. Things like Pixie, or Marrulurk, or template stacking.
RHD? Yeah, I can use the gestalt levels to buy off a race's LA.

[Douglas]

eh how does 33 turning attempts become 99 attempts to fuel DMM?
It's 33 Turn attempts, 33 Rebuke attempts, and 33 Destroy attempts. All of them can be used to fuel DMM.

[randomhero00]

It's 33 Turn attempts, 33 Rebuke attempts, and 33 Destroy attempts. All of them can be used to fuel DMM.


If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day.
Ahhhh clever, I just got it. I had to look up extra turning. I didn't realize it gave the extra turning to each type of turning, not just a general +4.

Err edit: wait, is that what you meant? I reread it and it says you need the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature.

[Douglas]

I suppose that sentence could be interpreted to mean that you must be able to, for example, turn water creatures in order to get the multiple benefit, but that conflicts with the Special section and is obviously not RAI.

Special
You can gain Extra Turning multiple times. Its effects stack. Each time you take the feat, you can use each of your turning or rebuking abilities four additional times per day.

Even if your DM goes with that interpretation, you could pick up one of the elemental domains to get turning/rebuking of some elemental subtypes, that would be enough to trigger the conditional "+4 to each" clause, and once that clause is in effect it does not distinguish between opposite abilities for the same creature type and similar abilities for different creature types; they all get +4 each, regardless.

The intent is obviously +4 uses/day for each Turn or Rebuke ability you've got regardless of whether they're all for the same creature type, the writers just had the elemental domains in mind rather than the possibility of someone getting both Turn Undead and Rebuke Undead.

Destroy Undead is not technically a Turn or Rebuke ability, but it explicitly equates its uses per day to what you'd get for Turn Undead and states it can fuel Divine feats.

[randomhero00]

well my mystic theurge couldn't get the crazy high turn attempts then, which I was fine with the less cheesy option but after fiddling with the stats it looks like MAD is going to be too annoying to play him. So it looks like I may be going with the more overpowered ClericZilla option because I don't have the more overpowerered stat buy option. Ironic :D

[Douglas]

Heh, I can imagine your DM going "you have HOW many buffs active, again?" incredulously.

Have you asked your DM about Persisting touch range spells yet?

[randomhero00]

Heh, I can imagine your DM going "you have HOW many buffs active, again?" incredulously.

Have you asked your DM about Persisting touch range spells yet?

Nope, because I haven't decided if I'll self-impose my own ban on those or not yet. Can you give me a quick summary/argument for it? Or a link to a thread? I'm sure this must have been discussed in great detail at some point.

[Douglas]

It's a very basic issue of interpretation.
1) "Touch" means 0 distance from your touching appendage. This is fixed, and therefore qualifies for Persistent Spell.
2) "Touch" means distance equal to your reach from your space. This varies with your reach and is therefore not fixed and not eligible for Persistent Spell.

Pick which meaning of "touch" you like better, and from there the eligibility for Persistent Spell is clear.

I, personally, think option 1 is the more sensible interpretation because in my opinion the range of a spell is the distance the spell has to cover without assistance and takes full line of effect denial to block rather than just partial obstructions like bars, but there's no official ruling either way.

[randomhero00]

I agree. Touch seems to mean physical contact, i.e. "0" fixed space between you as its range, not the length of your reach.

I could touch belly buttons if I wanted to heal you. Fact that would make a funny cleric...

Demented Cleric- "Ok, I'm going to miraculously heal your wounds; pull down your pants."
Fighter- "Uhhhh is this really necessary?!"
Demented Cleric *in a high pitched voice*- "I have to touch you to make it work!" Now don't look at me while I do this!"