Some quick Dragons questions

[Boci]

1st. So, a dragon full attacks with all its natural weapons at full attack bonus right? (Assuming it burns two feats on multiattack and improved multiattack.)

2nd. That gives a large dragon 6 attack right? Can they use them all on the same target?

3rd. A dragon adds its full strengths bonus to its bite, but only half to every other attack right?

4th. Dragons are typically under CRed, or so I hear, so what would recommend as being the maximum CR dragon to pit against a party? Party level+2?

Thanks in advance.

[Voice of Reason]

1) Correct, assuming that it is allowed to make a full-attack action and you take Multiattack and Improved Multiattack feats.

2) Correct: Bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, and a tail slap.

Edit: Yes, they can all be on the same target or divided amongst whatever targets are within reach, at the dragon's discretion.

3) Correct.

4) I'm afraid I can't venture an opinion here.

[Mongoose87]

CR is a load of bullocks. You need to judge by the power level of your own party.

[Boci]

CR is a load of bullocks. You need to judge by the power level of your own party.

True. What I mean is roughly how much under CR are dragons compared to other monsters? Should I assume they are 1 CR more than indicated?

[Runestar]

Dragons apply 1.5 str damage to their tail attacks.

I think their cr variance also depends on how effectively you optimize them and use their spellcasting abilities in combat. If I let it prebuff with long-duration spells and augment its combat routine with swift spells, it will be more challenging than a dragon who does not use any spells.

A dragon with greater heroism, bite of the werebear, superior magic fang, arcane spellsurge and knowledge devotion, is clearly much more deadly than a core dragon who simply moves and attacks.

You may want to use the xorvintaal template to make its difficulty less variable.

[Boci]

Dragons apply 1.5 str damage to their tail attacks.

I think their cr variance also depends on how effectively you optimize them and use their spellcasting abilities in combat. If I let it prebuff with long-duration spells and augment its combat routine with swift spells, it will be more challenging than a dragon who does not use any spells.

A dragon with greater heroism, bite of the werebear, superior magic fang, arcane spellsurge and knowledge devotion, is clearly much more deadly than a core dragon who simply moves and attacks.

Okay, thanks for the advice.


You may want to use the xorvintaal template to make its difficulty less variable.

Isn't that a template that removes their spellcasting in return for more melee power? Where is it found?

[KillianHawkeye]

Isn't that a template that removes their spellcasting in return for more melee power? Where is it found?

Monster Manual V.

[Boci]

Monster Manual V.

Dammit, don't hav e access to it, and crystalkeep doesn't have it. Oh well, I guess I could treat it as swapping caster levels for bonus feats on a 2 for 1 nasis. Less powerful, but more reliable and less complicated.

[*.*.*.*]

Dammit, don't hav e access to it, and crystalkeep doesn't have it. Oh well, I guess I could treat it as swapping caster levels for bonus feats on a 2 for 1 nasis. Less powerful, but more reliable and less complicated.

If you have access to ToB, swap maneuvers for those spells instead of feats.

[Sinfire Titan]

About #4: The reason people say Dragons are under-CR'ed is because they don't play them intelligently. Dragons are Gishes with better stats and 9th level spellcasting. Don't play them like tanks; buff them before combat and never let them enter melee willingly.

The MM just gives you the total stats, it doesn't give them feats or spells/day. The sample Dragons are horrifically underpowered because of their feat/spell selection (seriously, why would a Red Dragon take Fireball as a spell when it has a Breath Weapon that does better damage and a wider area?). The Draconomicon, Races of the Dragon, and Dragon Magic are all good books for a Dragon's feats. Spells from the SC, CM, PH2, and a few other sources will dramatically improve their casting abilities. PrCs will also help by giving them class features (A Juvenile Black Dragon with Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5 will be a better threat than a Very Old Black Dragon). The Draconomicon PrCs kinda suck though.

The Xorvintaal template is a very good way to optimize them without even trying. The Dragons of Eberron splat introduced a way to give Dragons Martial Maneuvers, so Tiger Claw makes them an even bigger threat! Add in Warblade levels or sub out the Sorcerer casting for Swordsage/Warblade advancement.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

About #4: The reason people say Dragons are under-CR'ed is because they don't play them intelligently. Dragons are Gishes with better stats and 9th level spellcasting. Don't play them like tanks; buff them before combat and never let them enter melee willingly. *nudge* Under-CR'd means they're too good for their CR. [/whisper]
Look at a Dragon's stats at CR 11, no optimization. Adult Black Dragon, since it's the first one I came to. 200 HP, large size, Flight, AC 27, minor SR, 3rd level spells, 6-attack full-attack, +24 AB, +6 Str mod. Yeah. CR 11. I recommend running.

[Sinfire Titan]

*nudge* Under-CR'd means they're too good for their CR. [/whisper]
Look at a Dragon's stats at CR 11, no optimization. Adult Black Dragon, since it's the first one I came to. 200 HP, large size, Flight, AC 27, minor SR, 3rd level spells, 6-attack full-attack, +24 AB, +6 Str mod. Yeah. CR 11. I recommend running.

Whoops. Got that mixed up. Still they aren't meant to be played as pure tanks (which a large number of people play them as). And even more people try to put them in enclosed spaces, like a cave (which is why they get killed so fast).

Still, even 200hp at 11 level isn't that much (Chargers can still cut it's HP in 2 rounds). The SR is underpowered at that level, and an AC in the mid-30's is expected at that level (not that hard to get).

[Boci]

If you have access to ToB, swap maneuvers for those spells instead of feats.

How muc does that power the dragon down? They cannot (or should not) use strikes unless they allow full attacks, so that limits them to counters and boosts, which are weaker than spells. They can be used more often a day, but that does not come up that often. The constant benefit of a stance is going to be weaker than most biffs, which will last the fight, so that might bring them down to their listed CR with respects to other monster types.