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Rasman
2010-02-02, 01:55 AM
I've heard people talk about the "Dungeon Crasher" build a lot and how it can do some rediculous damage, but no one has ever actually said what the build consists of, other than the fact that it's a fighter build. What feats exactly compose the Dungeon Crasher build and other than saying "you run people into walls" how does it work?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-02, 02:01 AM
Duneon Crasher is an ACF in Dungeonscape. The point of it is to get as high a bull-rush mod as possible, ensure there's always something available to run someone into, the Bull-Rush the opponent into it repeatedly. I like Raptoran+Ground for that. War Hulk is great for it, too, since it boosts Str and Bull-Rush doesn't need BAB.

Eldariel
2010-02-02, 02:03 AM
Well, Dungeoncrasher is an alternative class feature for Fighter in Dungeonscape. It makes you better at breaking stuff, surviving traps and the like in exchange for two feats (2nd and 6th levels). Basically, better at surviving in dungeons. It also enables you to Bull Rush people to walls for massive damage; 4d6+2xStr on level 2 and 8d6+3xStr on level 6.

This combined with ability to fly means there's almost always a wall (the ground) available and then you pick up a feat that allows Bull Rushing people while hitting (e.g. Knockback) and full attack people into ground (with or without some help from things that allow bull rush-as-trip (e.g. Rampaging Bull Rush [RoS]); stands to reason that prone people bull rushed do get slammed to the ground) for literally massive damage.


EDIT: Bloody ninjas, showing their heads where they don't belong. Thought this was a Fighter-thread...

Rasman
2010-02-02, 02:18 AM
so, effectively, you only need 6 levels of fighter to make a dungeon crasher build?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-02, 02:20 AM
so, effectively, you only need 6 levels of fighter to make a dungeon crasher build?You'll notice occasional references to Fighter being a 1, 2, or 6 level class? That's why.

Seffbasilisk
2010-02-02, 02:22 AM
Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Eldariel
2010-02-02, 02:25 AM
Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

Rasman
2010-02-02, 02:28 AM
Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

wouldn't Jortenbrud Feat (or however you spell it) work just as well?

Eldariel
2010-02-02, 02:29 AM
wouldn't Jortenbrud Feat (or however you spell it) work just as well?

Not strictly speaking, no. Powerful Build works since it's specifically spelled out in the feat that it works, but Jotunbrud has...well, there's no precedent for it making you count as Large for qualifications.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-02, 02:35 AM
Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.Winged Half-Ogre Dungeoncrasher 6/Barb 1/War Hulk 10. Use the last level on commoner or something. War Hulk is too awesome to not take.

Eldariel
2010-02-02, 02:36 AM
Winged Half-Ogre Dungeoncrasher 6/Barb 1/War Hulk 10. Use the last level on commoner or something. War Hulk is too awesome to not take.

Losing some iteratives does cut into your damage quite notably though, especially if Skillful weapons or such quick patches aren't available.

Bayar
2010-02-02, 05:50 AM
Warforged is unfortunately slightly subpar as that means you aren't playing a Large race which makes Knockback off-limits without basic trickery (and losing your key abilities in Dead Magic Zones sucks for a martial type); I personally prefer Goliath Barb/War Hulk.

Yes, but the synergy with Warforged Juggernaut cannot be ignored.

Soranar
2010-02-02, 05:54 AM
wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

AslanCross
2010-02-02, 06:01 AM
wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

It also requires spellcasting, which kind of ruins the whole build.

Some levels in a ToB class would also help, if only for access to Charging Minotaur (Warblade would probably be the best since you can replenish your maneuvers quickly and often and the levels stack with fighter). Even better, the maneuvers give you something else to do when you find yourself in a position where you can't bull rush.

Soranar
2010-02-02, 06:14 AM
Well instead of going fighter 6/Barbarian 1/War hulk 10
you go fighter 6/Hexblade 1(best spontaneous I could find to fit)/Dragon Disciple 10

only problem is that the strength bonus is not scaled like war hulk, but at least you get a BAB progression so you can always just hit something

Darrin
2010-02-02, 06:28 AM
I've heard people talk about the "Dungeon Crasher" build a lot and how it can do some rediculous damage, but no one has ever actually said what the build consists of, other than the fact that it's a fighter build. What feats exactly compose the Dungeon Crasher build and other than saying "you run people into walls" how does it work?

Well, in my mind "Dungeon Crasher" and Person_Man's "Flaming Homer" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) build are somewhat synonymous. It certainly was a big part of the inspiration behind my King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5897646) build.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-02, 06:29 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22

and

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248

are the awesome versions.


EDIT: Hey, look, a ninja.

Grumman
2010-02-02, 07:19 AM
you go fighter 6/Hexblade 1(best spontaneous I could find to fit)/Dragon Disciple 10
Hexblade is a Paladin-style half-casting class: it can't cast spells until level 4.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-02, 07:26 AM
He meant Duskblade I think.

Gnorman
2010-02-02, 07:27 AM
He meant Duskblade I think.

Let's hope. Otherwise that's going to be a hard sell of a build.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-02, 08:53 AM
Mix Dungeon Crasher fighter, Barbarian, and Warforged Juggernaut for Bullrush glory.

Fighterk/Kensai with Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, and the Sizing weapon enchantment on his Unarmed Strikes.

Signmaker
2010-02-02, 09:01 AM
Fighterk/Kensai with Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Bull Rush, and the Sizing weapon enchantment on his Unarmed Strikes.

If you get enough Kensai Levels, as well as a necklace of natural attacks (or telekinetic throw), you can also tack on Triple-Throw. In other words, you Buddha-palm craters.

Person_Man
2010-02-02, 10:52 AM
I see that all the good advice has pretty much already been given. To summarize:

You can improve your Bull Rush with any of the following:

Brutal Surge weapon enhancement: Free Bull Rush Con bonus times per day. Magic Item Compendium.
Factotum 3: Int to Str checks.
Improved Bull Rush: +4.
Karmic Strike: Enemy hits you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
Knockback: Free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack an enemy. Requires Large or bigger size, or Powerful Build.
Marshal 1: Cha to Str checks.
Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld: 2 + (2 * essentia) to Str checks.
Robilar's Gambit: Enemy swings at you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
Shield of the Severed Hand: Free Bull Rush once per round when an enemy attacks and misses you, often preventing a full attack. Requires True Believer. Comp Divine and Magic Item Compendium.
Shock Trooper: Steer your Bull Rush, Trip enemies when you knock them into each other. See Flaming Homer.
Size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732): Enlarge Person, Expansion, Giant Size, Polymorph, etc.
Strength bonus: War Hulk, Kensai, magic items, etc.
Step of the Wind stance (Setting Sun 1): +4 when in difficult terrain.
Warblade 11: Int to Bull Rush (and most other opposed checks).
Warforged Juggernaut 5: Class level to Bull Rush checks. Also grants moderate damage bonuses on Charge attacks, and a excellent list of construct immunities.


Which combo you pick basically depends on your stats, ECL, books allowed, and what your other build goals might be. Note that many other abilities/feats grant you a bonus to resist Bull Rushes (like Dwarvern Stability), which does not count when you initiate them.

Dungeoncrasher is a great mid level option, particularly so if you play in a large party, with plenty of opportunities to create AoO for your friends by Bull Rushing enemies directly past them and into other enemies, Tripping both enemies. But it loses much of it's usefulness at higher levels because Bull Rushing your enemy often prevents you from making a full attack, and taking 6 levels of Fighter prevents your from getting access to high level maneuvers, psionics, spells, capstone abilities, etc.

Also note that Dungeoncrasher is a poor idea against some enemies, either because they are immune to Bull Rush attacks (Swarm, Incorporeal), or because they are so ridiculously big and/or strong that your chance of success is negligible. So have a backup plan that doesn't depend on Str checks, such as a Daze attack, spells, maneuvers, soulmelds, psionics, etc.

Gametime
2010-02-02, 11:36 AM
It also requires spellcasting, which kind of ruins the whole build.


Not necessarily; there's some precedent for barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple being a decent build. Access to first level buff spells can make your bull rushing better; you just have to build the character with that in mind.

I could see Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10/whatever 3 being passable. You'd have Enlarge Person for yourself, at least. You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

Blackfang108
2010-02-02, 12:26 PM
You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

That's why I prefer Duskblade instead of Sorceror for this: All Knowledge skills ARE class skills. Granted, the List isn't Great, but you can actually USE your spells.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-02, 12:28 PM
Not necessarily; there's some precedent for barbarian/sorcerer/dragon disciple being a decent build. Access to first level buff spells can make your bull rushing better; you just have to build the character with that in mind.

I could see Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple 10/whatever 3 being passable. You'd have Enlarge Person for yourself, at least. You'd probably need Able Learner or something to get those Knowledge ranks without completely killing your skills, of course.

But you can't use Enlarge Person after you finish DD since you are no longer a person.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-02, 12:37 PM
Well, you could always go half-minotaur 1 (buy it off)/fighter 6/ardent 1/illithid slayer 10/ToB class 3, taking mantles that allow you access to expansion and metamorphosis.

Practiced Manifester is practically a given, of course.

Person_Man
2010-02-02, 12:47 PM
But you can't use Enlarge Person after you finish DD since you are no longer a person.

Correct. But you can use Alter Self (presumably through a scroll or wand), presumably to turn yourself into a Dragon one size category larger.

However, I personally think that Dragon Disciple is a poor choice. 10 levels for +8 Str (only +4 bonus to Bull Rush), +2 Con, +2 Int, +4 Cha, and a bunch of mediocre class abilities that can be duplicated with affordable magic items and feats is ripoff.

Xenogears
2010-02-02, 01:56 PM
wouldn't Dragon Disciple be superior to War Hulk ? Instead of +10 str you gain +8 with Con +2, Int +2, Cha +2, flight and AC +4

.....Warhulk gives +2 STR per level. It gives +20 STR in total. Dragon Disciple is less than half that.

9mm
2010-02-02, 02:04 PM
.....Warhulk gives +2 STR per level. It gives +20 STR in total. Dragon Disciple is less than half that.

you also know what's sexy with Warhulk? Legacy Champion. +2 strength and BAB? yes please!

Xenogears
2010-02-02, 02:05 PM
you also know what's sexy with Warhulk? Legacy Champion. +2 strength and BAB? yes please!

Gestalt is a warhulks wetdream...

Kylarra
2010-02-02, 02:07 PM
Uncanny trickster is also nice.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-02, 02:36 PM
Yeah, Warhulk gets silly in gestalt.

Akal Saris
2010-02-02, 02:53 PM
I think uncanny trickster/legacy champion and warhulk have some issues because warhulks can't have/use int-based skills, which interferes with the knowledge (history) ranks and whatnot. I don't remember, it's been a while.

How about Half-giant fighter 6/war mind 10/warblade 3? (1 LA) Half-giant gives power points (same as a power point reserve, isn't it? Otherwise a level of...something...is necessary) to qualify for war mind, as well as powerful build, while war mind gives expansion. Use the education feat for the ranks in knowledge (psionics), and you have a simple and effective build.

Person_Man
2010-02-02, 02:55 PM
you also know what's sexy with Warhulk? Legacy Champion. +2 strength and BAB? yes please!

An excellent choice - 3/4 BAB, adds UMD to your class Skills, and provides 8/10 progression of all class features plus a bunch of minor Weapon of Legacy stuff. But I wouldn't even bother. A weapon with the Skillful enchancement (Complete Arcane) puts your BAB at 3/4, and grants you proficiency with whatever the weapon is (presumably an exotic weapon). Just be sure to use locked gauntlets and make it out of Aurorum.

Draz74
2010-02-02, 03:12 PM
Just be sure to use locked gauntlets and make it out of Aurorum.

Hmmmm ... or be an Unarmed Swordsage/Fighter/Warhulk/Kensai who upgrades his unarmed strike with Skillful? There's an intriguing character concept ...

Silly, but intriguing.

JaronK
2010-02-02, 04:22 PM
This all works quite well with Improved Trip and Shock Trooper (knock people through other people, and get extra attacks for it). My Bulldozer shield build was based on this... basically Barbarian 2 (Whirling Frenzy, Lion Totem and Wolf Totem)/Feat Rogue 2/Fighter 6/War Hulk 10 on an Enlarge Person'd Water Orc. Use Shield Slam and Shield Charge so everyone you hit on the charge is dazed and tripped, and Knockback so they're smashed back through other enemies (tripping them as well) and everybody goes back into walls. All kinds of fun.

JaronK

Fluffles
2010-02-02, 04:47 PM
Half-Ogre Fighter 6 / Warhulk 10 / Dustform + Incarnate construct / Necropolitan / Evolved undead.

:)

herrhauptmann
2010-02-02, 06:33 PM
I think uncanny trickster/legacy champion and warhulk have some issues because warhulks can't have/use int-based skills, which interferes with the knowledge (history) ranks and whatnot. I don't remember, it's been a while.
How about Half-giant fighter 6/war mind 10/warblade 3? (1 LA) Half-giant gives power points (same as a power point reserve, isn't it? Otherwise a level of...something...is necessary) to qualify for war mind, as well as powerful build, while war mind gives expansion. Use the education feat for the ranks in knowledge (psionics), and you have a simple and effective build.

As soon as you take a level in warhulk, any int/wis/cha based skills you have (except intimidate) are reduced to 0, and you can't repurchase.


Not strictly speaking, no. Powerful Build works since it's specifically spelled out in the feat that it works, but Jotunbrud has...well, there's no precedent for it making you count as Large for qualifications.

I thought powerful build just gave you larger size weapons. It also allows you to qualify for feats and PrC's which say "Large size or larger" (like hulking hurler)?
Jotunbrud gives you a boost to opposed rolls if and when being larger is beneficial, it doesn't actually make you large sized.

How about the ubiquitous 1 level dip in barbarian? Go to CChamp for Spirit Lion totem (pounce), and to Unearthed Arcana for Whirling Frenzy rage. (I always viewed a character like this to be a battle top (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uw5crBtIqs).) Makes for an odd visual, but effective in places where the flying dungeoncrasher isn't viable, like in a dungeon with ceilings less than 20ft.

Xenogears
2010-02-02, 09:22 PM
As soon as you take a level in warhulk, any int/wis/cha based skills you have (except intimidate) are reduced to 0, and you can't repurchase.



I thought powerful build just gave you larger size weapons. It also allows you to qualify for feats and PrC's which say "Large size or larger" (like hulking hurler)?
Jotunbrud gives you a boost to opposed rolls if and when being larger is beneficial, it doesn't actually make you large sized.

How about the ubiquitous 1 level dip in barbarian? Go to CChamp for Spirit Lion totem (pounce), and to Unearthed Arcana for Whirling Frenzy rage. (I always viewed a character like this to be a battle top (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uw5crBtIqs).) Makes for an odd visual, but effective in places where the flying dungeoncrasher isn't viable, like in a dungeon with ceilings less than 20ft.

1.) IIRC War Hulk says "You are treated as having 0 ranks in all Int, Wis, or Cha skills (except Intimidate)" Not sure if that makes a difference or not tho.

2) Some of the feats in Races of Stone say that Powerful Build is acceptable when the Prereqs say "Large or Larger sized."

Serpentine
2010-02-02, 09:30 PM
I see that all the good advice has pretty much already been given. To summarize:

You can improve your Bull Rush with any of the following:

Brutal Surge weapon enhancement: Free Bull Rush Con bonus times per day. Magic Item Compendium.
Factotum 3: Int to Str checks.
Improved Bull Rush: +4.
Karmic Strike: Enemy hits you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
Knockback: Free Bull Rush whenever you Power Attack an enemy. Requires Large or bigger size, or Powerful Build.
Marshal 1: Cha to Str checks.
Mauling Gauntlets soulmeld: 2 + (2 * essentia) to Str checks.
Robilar's Gambit: Enemy swings at you, you hit them back, and use Brutal Surge or Knockback to Bull Rush them away from you, preventing a full attack.
Shield of the Severed Hand: Free Bull Rush once per round when an enemy attacks and misses you, often preventing a full attack. Requires True Believer. Comp Divine and Magic Item Compendium.
Shock Trooper: Steer your Bull Rush, Trip enemies when you knock them into each other. See Flaming Homer.
Size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127732): Enlarge Person, Expansion, Giant Size, Polymorph, etc.
Strength bonus: War Hulk, Kensai, magic items, etc.
Step of the Wind stance (Setting Sun 1): +4 when in difficult terrain.
Warblade 11: Int to Bull Rush (and most other opposed checks).
Warforged Juggernaut 5: Class level to Bull Rush checks. Also grants moderate damage bonuses on Charge attacks, and a excellent list of construct immunities.
I'll have to show this to my Boy. He's going to play a Favoured Soul/Dungeon Crasher with a legacy item belonging to a solar god of strength and nobility in my game. I'm thinking of letting him use my Dwarven Knight as a wall where walls are absent, except that because she's currently elf'd she'll take damage from it, too.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-02, 10:34 PM
1.) IIRC War Hulk says "You are treated as having 0 ranks in all Int, Wis, or Cha skills (except Intimidate)" Not sure if that makes a difference or not tho.

"

That's what I meant when I said "reduced to 0." Regardless, because you act as if you've got 0 ranks in each skill, it doesn't matter how many points you put into UMD or sense motive, or spell/psicraft with later levels, once you're a warhulk, you'll always have 0 ranks in those skills.

At least, that's my interpretation. You might be able to bend the phrasing to mean something else, but that's what I think the designers intended with the PrC. Big and dumb. Scary as heck, but his brain's not his strong point.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 12:39 AM
-snip-(I always viewed a character like this to be a battle top (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Uw5crBtIqs).)-snip-
Did you say BATTLE TOP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOhRmt2x3s&feature=related)?
I don't know why I thought of this.

Asbestos
2010-02-03, 01:45 AM
Did you say BATTLE TOP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOhRmt2x3s&feature=related)?
I don't know why I thought of this.
Uh, maybe because its the exact same thing but for a different generation?

Tops, they will always be lame toys no matter how many times they slam into each other.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 01:48 AM
Uh, maybe because its the exact same thing but for a different generation?

Tops, they will always be lame toys no matter how many times they slam into each other.
An anime/cartoon is the same thing as a toy? Huh.
I never watched it, though, which is why I don't understand why it came to mind.

Asbestos
2010-02-03, 02:39 AM
An anime/cartoon is the same thing as a toy? Huh.
I never watched it, though, which is why I don't understand why it came to mind.

Because its one of those toy-based anime. At one point you could go out and buy Beyblades (though of course, they aren't possessed by spirits or whatever the premise of that cartoon is)

So, I don't see why its surprising that a toy might make you think of a cartoon based on an extremely similar toy.

Eldariel
2010-02-03, 02:41 AM
Because its one of those toy-based anime. At one point you could go out and buy Beyblades (though of course, they aren't possessed by spirits or whatever the premise of that cartoon is)

So, I don't see why its surprising that a toy might make you think of a cartoon based on an extremely similar toy.

This is just the Law of Animization: If X exists, there's an anime of it.

herrhauptmann
2010-02-03, 02:54 AM
Did you say BATTLE TOP (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOhRmt2x3s&feature=related)?
I don't know why I thought of this.

I was gonna link to that instead, but the video I used was too ridiculous to pass up.

Mongoose87
2010-02-03, 02:55 AM
This is just the Law of Animization: If X exists, there's an anime of it.

That reminds me of another rule about things that exist...

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 03:06 AM
I was gonna link to that instead, but the video I used was too ridiculous to pass up.
I quite see your point.

Mongoose, that's why Nidoking is considered the sexiest Pokemon.

Eldariel
2010-02-03, 03:15 AM
That reminds me of another rule about things that exist...

Family forum...

Quietus
2010-02-03, 03:35 AM
Hmmmm ... or be an Unarmed Swordsage/Fighter/Warhulk/Kensai who upgrades his unarmed strike with Skillful? There's an intriguing character concept ...

Silly, but intriguing.

.... Lightning Mace.

Aptitude fists.

Brutal air drumming, man!

Bayar
2010-02-03, 07:36 AM
I quite see your point.

Mongoose, that's why Nidoking is considered the sexiest Pokemon.

You know that THAT statement is not true, right ?

Honeko
2010-02-18, 06:18 AM
A quick question... The ground can be considered a wall right?

So then can't you technically "Spear" someone to the ground using a bull rush? As I read Bull Rush it seems to me as it's a more or less a tackle, so why can't you just tackle them to the ground instead of a wall or similar?

Or is that something more like a bull rush trip... which I believe could also be possible and count for Dungeon crasher right?

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-18, 08:28 AM
If you're above them, you can. Or if you have shock trooper.

Honeko
2010-02-18, 04:46 PM
Shock Trooper says to the left or right...


Directed Bull Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make
a successful bull rush attempt as part of a charge. For every
square you push your foe back, you may also push that foe one
square to the left or right.

So you can't in effect lift the opponent you bull rush off the ground to slam him into the ground?

Or in other words, unless you are above them due to flying or size, you can't bull rush someone into ground.

Correct?

Draz74
2010-02-18, 04:51 PM
Or in other words, unless you are above them due to flying or size, you can't bull rush someone into ground.

Correct?

More or less. Though the physicist in me wants to argue that right and left are relative, and that if you turn sideways (flying? running on walls?) then "right or left" will be "into the ground" from your point of view. :smallwink:

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-18, 09:14 PM
I jump, and choose to count my left and right as up and down...it's all fairly relative.

AbyssKnight
2010-02-19, 04:17 PM
I also like Cleric 4, with Competition and Strength domains.
Competition grants +1 to opposed rolls (like, um, Bull Rush), making up for the loss of 1 BAB.
Strength domain will let you boost your strength by 4 once per day, and Enlarge Person is the 1st level domain spell.

And you get access to all other Cleric wands and scrolls.

strider24seven
2010-02-19, 04:27 PM
Three levels of Factotum adds INT to Bull Rush checks.

For all those that don't go HULK SMA... I mean War Hulk. :smallwink: