PDA

View Full Version : Party about to die?



Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 10:32 AM
Yesterday i had my 2nd DnD session as a DM. Our group has played DnD for about 3 years now, most have played for much longer.

I will make the story as short as possible.

The party needed to retrieve a disk from a researcher who has spent the last 8 years trying to figure out the meaning of the disk. He has recently discovered it is the key to a forgotten dungeon and he knows where the dungeon is.

The party is sort of like a resistance/underground group in this military city. They need to retrieve this disk tonight, because a group of soldiers will head for the dungeon in the morning. This will give them 8 hours headstart if they manage to not raise alarm.

They hardly make an effort to keep quiet, but i gave them the benefit of the doubt. They retrieve the Disk and leave the house where it was found.

They needed to leave through the harbor, because the gates are too well guarded. There are two small guard towers on each side of the harbor each with just one guard. They would only need to take down one guard so they can leave the harbor unnoticed on that side. They manage to take down the guard without him ringing the bell next to him. However one of them (dunno the word for this) unlights the torch there. The guard in the other tower notices this and yells "Samuel, you ok?". One of them replies with something like "No worries, it just went out", they quickly go for the boat and leave unnoticed. At this point i let someone take an intelligence check, he rolls 20 so i tell him "When you go to the boat you realise you do not know where to go once you have reached the horses." He does nothing with this information.

After they leave, obviously the other guard notices the lights are not back on after a few minutes, takes a look and notices the guard is not there, neither is the bell (both thrown in the water) and raises the alarm.

The party hears the alarm as they reach the coast next to the city where they had already taken measures that horses will be ready at the stables for them. That is about 400 ft from the gate, but still night so they remain hidden.

The horses are ready and i ask where they want to go. "I will look at the disk to find out where to go." i reply "The researcher has spent 8 years trying to figure that out, you do not have a clue". (They could have taken his notes or ask the researcher instead of killing him).

They argue for some bit, "Lets just go to a mountain it has to be at a mountain right?" and stuff like that, but also my 3rd option arised "We can follow the guards that leave the city, they might know where they were heading tomorrow mourning", sounds like a plausible remark not? well it was ignored, the first remark to go to a random mountain was about to be the one the party choses.
I interrupt the discussion with the sound of hooves approaching from the city towards them. Instead of hiding, one of them goes to stand in the middle of the road to challenge them. He is a large creature, and used the belt of growth to become Huge, so the soldiers are a bit intimidated and tend to return the 400 ft to the city to get some more soldiers, of which there are plenty in this military city.
2 of the players are hiding, 2 of the players have gone to the roof of the stables for some ranged combat, 2 of them are actually following the guards.....towards the gate....

The session ended.

Now for the next session, i cannot let them engage this military city without dying, it is illogical. The reinforcements will be overwhelming and they will die, retreating after engaging seems hard too, the horses will outrun them.
Even if they do get clarity of mind and the first thing the party (especially the ones engaging) does is run for it, they will have tons of soldiers looking for them, tracking them all night. They will need to be smart and lucky to survive.

Is this unreasonable? Was i expecting too much of the party?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 10:37 AM
I'm not sure it's clear what the objective was. You said it was simply "retreive the disks", which they did accomplish(albeit, not in an ideal way, but hey). Do they know they have to go to this dungeon, and if so, why?

Be aware that players, when given objectives, tend to pursue them in ways you didn't plan for, and if the objectives aren't interesting/rewarding, may not pursue them at all.

What level are they, btw? This makes a huge difference as to if they can successfully engage an army, or more likely, a portion of one.

kamikasei
2010-02-02, 10:39 AM
...my 3rd option arised "We can follow the guards that leave the city, they might know where they were heading tomorrow mourning", sounds like a plausible remark not? well it was ignored...

Where did this suggestion come from? In character, who made it?

Lysander
2010-02-02, 10:41 AM
Kill em all and start a new game. But not unfairly, just explicitly state how many enemies are coming and then roll combat normally. Maybe they'll learn caution for next time.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 10:47 AM
I'm not sure it's clear what the objective was. You said it was simply "retreive the disks", which they did accomplish(albeit, not in an ideal way, but hey). Do they know they have to go to this dungeon, and if so, why?

Be aware that players, when given objectives, tend to pursue them in ways you didn't plan for, and if the objectives aren't interesting/rewarding, may not pursue them at all.

What level are they, btw? This makes a huge difference as to if they can successfully engage an army, or more likely, a portion of one.

They knew they were to go to the dungeon (hence the night headstart if the alarm was not raised). This was clear to them.

They are level 6, the soldiers are war-trained and most are level 3 (they know this to some extend, they fought some of them). Some are higher. There are tons of soldiers in the city. I suppose about a 100 will actually come out of the city to engage them, which will easily overwhelm them. And even if they don't more reinforcements will arive.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 10:49 AM
Where did this suggestion come from? In character, who made it?

This was in character, by one of the 6 players, the one who was appointed the "leader" of the mission.

kamikasei
2010-02-02, 10:53 AM
This was in character, by one of the 6 players, the one who was appointed the "leader" of the mission.

Ah okay. The way you'd phrased it made me think it might have come from a DMPC. The presence of an NPC acting as a mouthpiece for the DM's suggestions might have provoked a reaction of "well we're not doing what he says, anyway", but I guess that's not the case.

Were the players taking the game seriously, or fooling around? If they were just playing for laughs, they may not take a (well-deserved) TPK too badly.

cheezewizz2000
2010-02-02, 10:56 AM
Non-lethal damage. Capture and take the disk. Throw them in a dungeon. Boom, new objective: get back out, re-steal the disk and show some sense. Perhaps there is someone in the dungeon with them who has similar goals to them and did something similar. He can sugest they find the professor's notes and chide them for killing first and not asking any questions.

Kill him off within the session because DMPCs are annoying for enveryone.

Danger with this is someone bolts and then you have a split party. He has two options: Solo adventure to bust them out or he gets to play the DMPC's accomplace, also in the dungeon. Obviously let him switch back to his original character when they re-meet up and when his new character dies off.

To ensure capture, have a couple of battlefield controlly wizards put a lot of save-or-suck AOE spells (grease, web etc) around the base of the barn to keep the archers from fleeing. Invisibility and cross-class ranks in hide are your friends (can't hit what you can't true-see). Have the soldiers pull some ranged weapons and throw things like ranged pin, ranged trip etc (complete warrior, they work how you think they work) at them. Lots of gribbly status effects and less direct damage. Make them fear you, not for the massive amounts of damage, but the massive amounts of saves and checks they have to make to get out.

It's time for this **** to get real.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 10:57 AM
They knew they were to go to the dungeon (hence the night headstart if the alarm was not raised). This was clear to them.

And do they know this IC or OOC, and if IC, how did they learn this information exactly?


They are level 6, the soldiers are war-trained and most are level 3 (they know this to some extend, they fought some of them). Some are higher. There are tons of soldiers in the city. I suppose about a 100 will actually come out of the city to engage them, which will easily overwhelm them. And even if they don't more reinforcements will arive.

Do a hundred soldiers show up every time a guard goes missing or something happens? This doesn't strike me as terribly realistic, especially if they all show up at once. Sure, once there's an actual battle, reinforcements can be expected, but that doesn't seem like normal procedure unless unmentioned variables are in play.

And a six man level 6 party can handle a rather goodly amount of level 3s.

On a side note, this is 3.5, right? What are the classes involved, and have the players played before?

Edit: Yes, if you are running a DMPC, kill him now. Make sure he dies dramatically to the oncoming soldiers, which might just serve as a warning that it's time to run away.

Killer Angel
2010-02-02, 11:04 AM
OK, probably you can do something believable. a guard is vanished, a group of peoples is escaping and a huge enemy (magic!) is facing a patrol. It’s not exactly as the city is under attack... many soldiers and officiers will be on alarm, but I doubt the whole army will arise: it's night, sentinels will go to their post, some units will be awaken, and so on. When the reports will arrive, a “ready to strike” squad, will pursuit the group. Prepare a difficult fight, even potential deadly for one or more PC, but giv’em a chance.
A “real” hunt with overhelming forces, will start only after a couple of hours or more (let them know this IC, with some int roll), and after the discovery of what they’ve stolen.
What to do with the disk but without info about the dungeon, is upon them.

cheezewizz2000
2010-02-02, 11:13 AM
Do a hundred soldiers show up every time a guard goes missing or something happens? This doesn't strike me as terribly realistic, especially if they all show up at once. Sure, once there's an actual battle, reinforcements can be expected, but that doesn't seem like normal procedure unless unmentioned variables are in play.


The fact that one of the players turned himself huge may be enough to pull out 100 soldiers. It's dark and not unreasonable to assume that a giant is about. I'd get a local garrison to deal with that if I was a warlord and overwhelming force is sometimes the best way to ensure minimal casulties and minimal cost. Soldiers are expensive to train, especially to level 3 or above.

akma
2010-02-02, 11:13 AM
It seems that they screwed up so much they deserve to die. You can`t let them screw up forever without consequences.
Do that a few soldiers will reach them every few rounds, so they could get a chance of escaping. For the sake of simplicity, I suggest that 10 soldiers will reach them every 5 rounds.



Do a hundred soldiers show up every time a guard goes missing or something happens? This doesn't strike me as terribly realistic, especially if they all show up at once.


You forgot that one of the players turned to a giant and scared away some guards, and then they ran to call reinforcments.

Douglas
2010-02-02, 11:13 AM
Sounds like some combination of bad communication, faulty player assumptions about what to expect, or stupid players. It's hard to tell which is the most important factor without hearing both sides.

Bad communication: None of us were there and we're only getting a report from one side of it. It might be possible that you just didn't manage to communicate the situation well enough or left out information you didn't realize you needed to state.

Faulty player assumptions: This is only your second session. The players are used to a different DM. They could be assuming, maybe because it's how the previous DM worked or because they think you'll be more timid because you're new at this, that you will hand them a level-appropriate or otherwise winnable encounter regardless of what realism might dictate. Or maybe the previous DM just didn't think through realistic consequences of things as thoroughly or in the same way as you do.

Stupid players: Your players are idiots.

On the basis of what's been posted so far, I would guess that faulty assumptions is the primary cause of this debacle, with player stupidity and miscommunication both contributing but to a lesser degree. If that is the case, I think the best thing you can do here is play hardball. Shatter their assumptions thoroughly and with potentially drastic consequences, up to and including a TPK. Prove that their assumptions about everything always being winnable or level appropriate are wrong and that holding to them is extremely dangerous. Explain afterwords why they were fighting unbeatable forces, and that they really do need to think through logical realistic consequences of their actions. Then have them make new characters, possibly even an entire new party, and start a new campaign with your DMing style firmly established in your players minds.

Alternatively, alter your style to match your players' assumptions. I'd go with the realism, though.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 11:17 AM
Were the players taking the game seriously, or fooling around? If they were just playing for laughs, they may not take a (well-deserved) TPK too badly.

We kid around a lot during the game, out of character.

But we take the game itself pretty seriously and i have never seen such stupidity in the time i was a player in the same group.

It is one thing to forget the knowledge of the dungeon's location, but another to ignore the intelligence check that told you so.

It is one thing to ignore the one and only sane option available, but another to engage a group of soldiers 400 ft from their city.


Non-lethal damage. Capture and take the disk. Throw them in a dungeon. Boom, new objective: get back out, re-steal the disk and show some sense.

This will be hard, i will comment on this in the next post.

cheezewizz2000
2010-02-02, 11:27 AM
This will be hard, i will comment on this in the next post.

Why will this be hard? At worst, you have your warriors take a -4 to attacks to deal non-lethal damage. Easy options are to say: They're armed for law enforcement, they have a sword, a shield and a sap and will swap to the sap when they want to capture, not kill. Perhaps a couple are armed like retarii and have a net. Perhaps there's a monk in there who finally has a chance to shine.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 11:27 AM
And do they know this IC or OOC, and if IC, how did they learn this information exactly?



Do a hundred soldiers show up every time a guard goes missing or something happens? This doesn't strike me as terribly realistic, especially if they all show up at once. Sure, once there's an actual battle, reinforcements can be expected, but that doesn't seem like normal procedure unless unmentioned variables are in play.

And a six man level 6 party can handle a rather goodly amount of level 3s.

On a side note, this is 3.5, right? What are the classes involved, and have the players played before?

Edit: Yes, if you are running a DMPC, kill him now. Make sure he dies dramatically to the oncoming soldiers, which might just serve as a warning that it's time to run away.


They know this IC and OOC. One of them is a "spy" and has gathered this information. This is clear to all characters as they were at the meeting where the mission was explained.

The house of the researcher was next to the harbor and guarded. The missing guard let to not seeing any guards at the researchers house which led to the discovery of several dead bodies. The alarm bell has been ringing for quite some time now, they know the disk is missing when the alarm bell rang. Once the bell rings, more bells are rang (cause they hear the 1st) and so the city is alarmed. All soldiers wake up. One thing leads to another and 10 minutes later a few soldiers take some horses to go along the road towards the dungeon. Once they are encountered some have retreated immediatly, the others once they were engaged. It takes 2 rounds to get back to the city where there are plenty of soldiers (barracks at the gate houses seems obvious).

A party of 6 can handle a few, maybe 30. However this party is not super optimized, neither are all 6 engaging, only 2 are currently engaging the soldiers.

There is no DMPC and all players are pretty experienced (at least 100 sessions, not with me as DM). The classes are Warblade, Warblade, Ranger, Rogue, Bard and some kind of Werebear.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 11:37 AM
Sounds like some combination of bad communication, faulty player assumptions about what to expect, or stupid players. It's hard to tell which is the most important factor without hearing both sides.

Bad communication: None of us were there and we're only getting a report from one side of it. It might be possible that you just didn't manage to communicate the situation well enough or left out information you didn't realize you needed to state.

Stupid players: Your players are idiots..

Bad Communication is what i was worried about. But i cannot make it clearer then actually saying after an intelligence check: "You realise you have not yet retrieved the location of the dungeon"
And it is know to the players that one cannot do whatever one wants. In the last campaign our druid was engaged by guards whenever he went into a town/city while wildshaped and we were imprisoned by guards when we had an encounter in a city (with assassins), we were blamed for murder. It was clear to all players then to not engage those guards.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 11:42 AM
Why will this be hard? At worst, you have your warriors take a -4 to attacks to deal non-lethal damage. Easy options are to say: They're armed for law enforcement, they have a sword, a shield and a sap and will swap to the sap when they want to capture, not kill. Perhaps a couple are armed like retarii and have a net. Perhaps there's a monk in there who finally has a chance to shine.

Would the same soldiers that retreated from a huge monster (Half Ogre Werebear) try to capture it instead of kill it?

They are not armed for law enforcement, this is a military city, in wartime. These are soldiers, trained to kill the enemy.
However what are the rules for nets, and would that have an effect on a huge creature?

cheezewizz2000
2010-02-02, 11:50 AM
Would the same soldiers that retreated from a huge monster (Half Ogre Werebear) try to capture it instead of kill it?

They are not armed for law enforcement, this is a military city, in wartime. These are soldiers, trained to kill the enemy.
However what are the rules for nets, and would that have an effect on a huge creature?

Half-ogre werebear? Jeeze. I hope he's only level 3 or so. If he's still huge, no. It can only be used on creatures within a size catagory of you. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#net) are the net rules. As for if they are trained to kill, not capture, then perhaps they will focus their efforts on killing the biggest threat (the wearbear) and then capturing the humans. Everyone loves more slaves. Perhaps the lord wants to know what they know about the disk and that's why he has ordered them to be kept alive. I know that you want to keep this as realistic as possible, but being captured is better than being killed outright, produces a better story and allows the campaign to continue.

All in all it depends on whether you want this campaign to continue or not. 6 level 6s vs a handful of level 4-6s and a whole mess of level 3s? They won't survive that fight. They'll put up a good fight and a lot of people will die on both sides, perhaps a TPK will occur. Bare in mind that the fight will last a while though, and constant dice rolling is not that fun, so bring to bare as many ways of stopping the fight to your advantage as quickly as possible. THAT is more realistic than swamping them and will be more fun in the end for you and your players.

Edit: Though those warblades will be tricksy if they have iron heart surge. You may want to paralyse them and rule that because they can't take actions, they can't use maneuvres. It's a bit of a lousy thing to rule, because that's exactly the situation I think IHS was designed for, but then again letting them use it and letting them shine might be the more fun option, and you can always hit them with something else.

Archer #1: "Ranged pin!"
Warblade: "Iron Heart Surge!"
Archer #2: "Ranged trip!"
Warblade: "Nerts"

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 11:57 AM
You forgot that one of the players turned to a giant and scared away some guards, and then they ran to call reinforcments.

I don't deny that soldiers responding may be appropriate, but the idea that there are a hundred soldiers chilling there waiting in the middle of the night, as the initial response force is a bit of a stretch. It'd take some amount of time to gather a force this large unless there is an odd circumstance that required 100 armed men be ready to go at this point. Not counting guards, because presumably they wont be stupid enough to leave everything unguarded whenever an alarm gets raised.

Now sure, if they stay and fight long enough....eventually, more guys will come. They're going to have to consider their options at some point, but they're not to the point of no return yet.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 12:04 PM
First off, I'd allow the Bard a Bardic knowledge check to see if he can figure out what's on the disc. Bard pick up a lot of that stuff, and it's not unreasonable that he'd recognize something that it took a less well versed researcher a long time to figure out.

Secondly, I feel that the party was kind of let down by you: you gave them a single way to discover the location of the dungeon (the researcher and his notes), and one option to find it afterwars (follow the soldiers). Following a group of soldiers into a dangerous dungeon doesn't sound like a very good plan, so I can see their hesitance to do that...I'd at least give them a chance to, if they're creative, discover the disc's meaning.

Finally, your average city militia (as stated by the Arms and Equipment guide) is a level 1 warrior with stats of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. A guard sergeant might be level 2, and a captain might be level 3. All warriors. An elite guard might be level 2-3 Fighters. Unless this city is some sort of world superpower fielding an unbeatable army, even two level 6 PCs could deal enough damage to force a retreat until things like siege weapons or the king's personal guard could be called in to deal with the issue...and that probably takes a while to clear with the authorities.

In short, while the party has made some fairly stupid decisions, they were put in a rather difficult place: go somewhere (you have no idea where, and no way of finding out), or follow a heavily armed guard contingent and then deal with them in addition to the dungeon, and hope not to be seen on the way, because if you are you either all die, or you win and then don't know where you're going.

Hell...if they can't read the disc, why did they even need to retrieve it? I'd hand them a few more chances, as I don't think this is deserving of a TPK. A capture and escape scenario, possible...but not a TPK.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 12:30 PM
Secondly, I feel that the party was kind of let down by you: you gave them a single way to discover the location of the dungeon (the researcher and his notes), and one option to find it afterwars (follow the soldiers). Following a group of soldiers into a dangerous dungeon doesn't sound like a very good plan, so I can see their hesitance to do that...I'd at least give them a chance to, if they're creative, discover the disc's meaning.

Finally, your average city militia (as stated by the Arms and Equipment guide) is a level 1 warrior with stats of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. A guard sergeant might be level 2, and a captain might be level 3. All warriors. An elite guard might be level 2-3 Fighters. Unless this city is some sort of world superpower fielding an unbeatable army, even two level 6 PCs could deal enough damage to force a retreat until things like siege weapons or the king's personal guard could be called in to deal with the issue...and that probably takes a while to clear with the authorities.

Yes, they needed to either search the house for hints on the location of the dungeon or interrogate the researcher. The other options consisted of a party of soldiers they could have handled, either at the location of the dungeon, or along the route, this time remembering to leave one alive.

I feel that as a DM i have the opportunity to claim that the soldiers are level 3. Besides, it is not that this information is new to them, they know that the soldiers are about that level.


In short, while the party has made some fairly stupid decisions, they were put in a rather difficult place: go somewhere (you have no idea where, and no way of finding out), or follow a heavily armed guard contingent and then deal with them in addition to the dungeon, and hope not to be seen on the way, because if you are you either all die, or you win and then don't know where you're going.

Hell...if they can't read the disc, why did they even need to retrieve it? I'd hand them a few more chances, as I don't think this is deserving of a TPK. A capture and escape scenario, possible...but not a TPK.

You seem to claim that if you are seen, it does not come to your mind to not make the same mistake again and not kill all of those guards. Or search their bodies for the map they might have.

The Disk is needed to open the dungeon, the party knows this.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 12:42 PM
You seem to claim that if you are seen, it does not come to your mind to not make the same mistake again and not kill all of those guards. Or search their bodies for the map they might have.

No such claim is explicit. It really looks like you WANT to blame stuff on the players here.


The Disk is needed to open the dungeon, the party knows this.

Then this further resembles a railroad plot.

Dekkah
2010-02-02, 12:53 PM
Would the same soldiers that retreated from a huge monster (Half Ogre Werebear) try to capture it instead of kill it?

They are not armed for law enforcement, this is a military city, in wartime. These are soldiers, trained to kill the enemy.
However what are the rules for nets, and would that have an effect on a huge creature?

An other option would be, when it becomes obvious that your side is winning the soldiers leader could call for a surrender. Timing is everything for this tough... if you call it before the players feels they will loose, they wont comply (sometimes, players arent logic and ignore it anyway).
I dont think it would be unrealistic for soldier to demand a surrender to the players (it will save the life of their soldiers, and they might want to interrogate the players).

Also, it let the game continue and oyu can use your material instead of rebooting the game.

Kylarra
2010-02-02, 12:57 PM
frankly after such heavy railroading, should they decide to retreat, I'd just put them at the dungeon in question after a bit of trouble. Roll meaningless dice if you really want to make it seem random and not like fudging.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 12:58 PM
No such claim is explicit. It really looks like you WANT to blame stuff on the players here.


No, i currently see it as their own fault, that they indeed ARE to blame, but i do not WANT to and am trying to see if that is correct or if i am expecting to much from the players.

I am repeating myself now, but like i said before. I can understand they forget the information about the dungeon, but why ignore the huge hint i give.
I can imagine following the group of soldiers might sound risky, but confronting them 400ft from the city is a better option?

But back to your reaction:

My players have not done this, so why would i blame them for something they did not do. However if they had decided that the plan is to follow the soldiers to the dungeon, and they are discovered, should i expect them to remember to keep one alive or search for a map on one of the bodies?

I believe they should, if they don't i consider it a mistake.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 01:01 PM
To take a slightly different viewpoint...why SHOULD they go to the dungeon, instead of slaughtering soldiers and perhaps going to the dungeon later?

A similar conversation had with a recent DM:

Me: How many guards are there(Im aware from killing some that they outlevel me)?
DM: Both the platform and crowd are surrounded by too many guards for you to fight.
Me: How many is that?
DM: 45 or so. *puts a pile of tokens on the mat*
Me: I cast an invisible wall of fire in a circle around them.

Sometimes, there really is no reason to retreat, even in the face of overwhelming numbers, or the DM thinks it's logical. A decent party can kill a LOT of lower level guards.

Harperfan7
2010-02-02, 01:01 PM
Sounds to me like they deserve to die (which sounds bastardly, I know).

Sometimes if you stare down a gun barrel and pull the trigger, you die, you know?

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 01:02 PM
An other option would be, when it becomes obvious that your side is winning the soldiers leader could call for a surrender. Timing is everything for this tough... if you call it before the players feels they will loose, they wont comply (sometimes, players arent logic and ignore it anyway).
I dont think it would be unrealistic for soldier to demand a surrender to the players (it will save the life of their soldiers, and they might want to interrogate the players).

Also, it let the game continue and oyu can use your material instead of rebooting the game.

That is a good option to keep in mind. The captain has asked for a surrender when he first noticed the player in the middle of the road. I can imagine him doing so again.

It would however create a whole different path. As i mentioned, this is my 1st time DM-ing, and (like i said to the players) i wanted to keep a set path for the 1st few sessions to get a bit used to DM-ing.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 01:04 PM
I think you are expecting to much from them. They had one shot at getting out of the situation: wait and follow the guards. In what would then be broad daylight, 400ft from the gates, that's a bad option. Trying to move horses quietly at night is a bad option. As a result, they've been discovered, and, at 400ft from the "heavily guarded gates," have little chance of getting away. They obviously can't follow the expedition now, as it won't leave until they're taken care of.

If the guards immediately came out of the gate, rather than investigating the dock (I'd imagine that, in a military city, the occasional violence against a guard is the norm), that implies that they somehow know that the disc has been taken, and suspect where the PCs are. That makes escape a rather impossible option, and also makes following the guards impossible (as the guards need the disc as well, and wouldn't leave without it).

I can't help feeling like you're expecting them to somehow come up with a Royal Flush in a game where you've taken all their cards away. That, in my mind, is expecting to much of them.

In short, the PCs made one bad decision (not finding out where the dungeon is), and, as a result, are completely screwed. I find that rather unfair, especially since you're not giving them another way to discover its location. If I were one of your PCs, I'd be quite irate at this turn of events, and probably just cut my losses and leave, letting the guards have whatever is in the dungeon. Obviously I can't really get to it.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 01:05 PM
frankly after such heavy railroading, should they decide to retreat, I'd just put them at the dungeon in question after a bit of trouble. Roll meaningless dice if you really want to make it seem random and not like fudging.

This is what i am hoping for, that they (or at least the majority of the party) retreat a.s.a.p.
The option of following a group of soldiers might still be valid, though maybe more complicated.
The soldiers do not know that the party does not know the location of the dungeon. They might even believe the party is there to delay the soldiers so the ones with the Disk get more of a headstart.
I will not however just randomly let them arrive at the dungeon.

Kylarra
2010-02-02, 01:07 PM
This is really similar to that other thread about a problem player, where does your desire for realism/verisimilitude overrule the idea of fun?

Note, I am in no way necessarily advocating that player stupidity should be rewarded or ignored, but in cases like this, sure it might be realistic for them to get lost in the woods given that they ignored the two ways to get to the dungeon that the DM pointed out, but would that be fun to play?

You put them in a heavily railroaded situation (if you didn't take the researcher's notes you're screwed) with a questionable backup plan (following a specific group of soldiers in broad daylight) and you're surprised that they're not following your rails? I'd cut them a break.


If I were one of your PCs, I'd be quite irate at this turn of events, and probably just cut my losses and leave, letting the guards have whatever is in the dungeon. Obviously I can't really get to it.I'd just destroy/hide the key and lay low for a while personally. No need to get there before everyone else when I have the only key or no need to let other people get to it if I can prevent everyone from having it.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 01:09 PM
You put them in a heavily railroaded situation (if you didn't take the researcher's notes you're screwed) with a questionable backup plan (following a specific group of soldiers in broad daylight) and you're surprised that they're not following your rails? I'd cut them a break.

Here we go. A nicely summarized version of what I was trying to say on the bottom of the last page. Much more to the point than mine was. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 01:09 PM
No, i currently see it as their own fault, that they indeed ARE to blame, but i do not WANT to and am trying to see if that is correct or if i am expecting to much from the players.

The situation is neither just their fault or just your fault. It is both, since both you and them participated to this point. I'd suggest that it's NOT expecting too much for you to expect players to follow your plotline to the letter, since that implies that this expectation is legitimate.


I am repeating myself now, but like i said before. I can understand they forget the information about the dungeon, but why ignore the huge hint i give.

If you give them information that they choose not to use, that's that. Perhaps that method would have been easier, but if you believe they HAVE to follow your hints, it's not really a hint, now is it?


I can imagine following the group of soldiers might sound risky, but confronting them 400ft from the city is a better option?

Characters do not have to take the best option, and sometimes will not. Yes, combat has inherent risks, and perhaps they could have accomplished the mission in a safer way. They don't HAVE to take the ideal way though.


But back to your reaction:

My players have not done this, so why would i blame them for something they did not do. However if they had decided that the plan is to follow the soldiers to the dungeon, and they are discovered, should i expect them to remember to keep one alive or search for a map on one of the bodies?

I believe they should, if they don't i consider it a mistake.

No. If they keep one alive, or search for a map, good for them. If they choose to use some other method, that's also fine.

If you give the players a challenge, how they meet that challenge is ultimately up to them. Don't try to micromanage them into solving it the same way you would.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 01:14 PM
I think you are expecting to much from them. They had one shot at getting out of the situation: wait and follow the guards. In what would then be broad daylight, 400ft from the gates, that's a bad option. Trying to move horses quietly at night is a bad option. As a result, they've been discovered, and, at 400ft from the "heavily guarded gates," have little chance of getting away. They obviously can't follow the expedition now, as it won't leave until they're taken care of.

If the guards immediately came out of the gate, rather than investigating the dock (I'd imagine that, in a military city, the occasional violence against a guard is the norm), that implies that they somehow know that the disc has been taken, and suspect where the PCs are. That makes escape a rather impossible option, and also makes following the guards impossible (as the guards need the disc as well, and wouldn't leave without it).

I can't help feeling like you're expecting them to somehow come up with a Royal Flush in a game where you've taken all their cards away. That, in my mind, is expecting to much of them.

In short, the PCs made one bad decision (not finding out where the dungeon is), and, as a result, are completely screwed. I find that rather unfair, especially since you're not giving them another way to discover its location. If I were one of your PCs, I'd be quite irate at this turn of events, and probably just cut my losses and leave, letting the guards have whatever is in the dungeon. Obviously I can't really get to it.

They had one option to find the location of the dungeon while grabbing the Disk, they had another option to find the location of the dungeon when i told the player he realised he did not know the location of the dungeon, they had another option when the "Follow the guards to the dungeon" was offered.

They were not discovered, the horses where set out to set foot to the location of the dungeon. At the very least four players realised this, i believe all of them did. When 5 players hide (at first) and then you decide to stand in the middle of the road, i believe that to be another mistake.

One of the players has Darkvision, Scent and Track and would have been able to follow the horses to the dungeon.

Had they led the soldiers pass it would have all worked out.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 01:18 PM
I'd just destroy/hide the key and lay low for a while personally. No need to get there before everyone else when I have the only key or no need to let other people get to it if I can prevent everyone from having it.

This is also a decent option. I can put them on a side track for a few weeks then let the Dungeon story come back.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 01:24 PM
If you give them information that they choose not to use, that's that. Perhaps that method would have been easier, but if you believe they HAVE to follow your hints, it's not really a hint, now is it?


No, they do not have to. But they have to deal with the consequense....well i have, since if they do not know the location of the dungeon i need to make up a new story, which i hadn't planned for.


Characters do not have to take the best option, and sometimes will not. Yes, combat has inherent risks, and perhaps they could have accomplished the mission in a safer way. They don't HAVE to take the ideal way though.

No. If they keep one alive, or search for a map, good for them. If they choose to use some other method, that's also fine.

If you give the players a challenge, how they meet that challenge is ultimately up to them. Don't try to micromanage them into solving it the same way you would.

Yes, they can do whatever they want, and try to solve things the way they want. I they find a clever (realistic) way to get to the dungeon i will allow it. If they however decide to assault a city, they die.

Kylarra
2010-02-02, 01:30 PM
No, they do not have to. But they have to deal with the consequense....well i have, since if they do not know the location of the dungeon i need to make up a new story, which i hadn't planned for.Honestly, wherever they go could plausibly be the location of the dungeon. Schrodinger's Gun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitleocg6iflv079q?from=Main.SchrodingersGun) in action.


Obligatory Tropes warning.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2010-02-02, 01:33 PM
No, they do not have to. But they have to deal with the consequense....well i have, since if they do not know the location of the dungeon i need to make up a new story, which i hadn't planned for.

So the consequence for not taking the only option presented (realizing that they "don't know where the dungeon is" isn't an option if there's no way of figuring it out aside from following the guard) is either having a whole new adventure or dying? This is why you, as a DM, should always have contingency plans: in this case, provide a number of ways the PCs could discover the location, either with outside help or by themselves. You gave them 2 options (neither particularly viable, given that, without the key, the soldiers wouldn't have bothered going to the dungeon anyway), but flat out denied them the chance to do it themselves...I'd rethink that angle of it.


Yes, they can do whatever they want, and try to solve things the way they want. If they however decide to assault a city, they die.

This sort of makes sense. But it doesn't look like they're assaulting the city. They're just confronting guards who they thought were out to kill them. Makes sense to me. If they had decided to launch a 6-man invasion force, then I'd expect them to die.

Anyway, I've said my bit. I don't think this is worthy of a TPK, as I think that the fault lies on both sides: your PCs didn't take the smartest course of action, and your plot has a bit of railroading and not a lot of room for PC shenanigans. You said this is your 2nd session as a DM: as someone who has DMed a lot, let me tell you that the PCs will always throw a wrench in your carefully laid plans, and it helps the game flow better if you work around it rather than throwing a TPK at them. Don't tell them what to do: let them do it themselves.

True, sometimes it really changes the world. But, in my mind, watching something happen to the world around them when the could have prevented it works much better than killing them off.

In this case, if you really do want to punish them for this (and I advise against it, for all the reasons I previously mentioned), I'd do the following: capture them, imprison them, and have the guards take the key (provided the PCs can't get around the inevitable search somehow) and proceed to the dungeon without them. Maybe the guards will all die terribly at the hands of the dungeon, but they might possibly accomplish what they set out to do, forcing the PCs to work extra hard to avoid whatever the repercussions are.

TPKs aren't fun for anyone...do your best to avoid them if you want an RP-centric game. Let the PCs see the negative results of their actions, and maybe they'll think better next time.

Jayabalard
2010-02-02, 02:15 PM
You put them in a heavily railroaded situation (if you didn't take the researcher's notes you're screwed) with a questionable backup plan (following a specific group of soldiers in broad daylight) and you're surprised that they're not following your rails? I'd cut them a break.I don't really think railroaded is the right term for this. He's letting the players do what they want, and it sounds like he's letting them do it in a fairly sandbox fashion. The players knew, both IC and OOC what they were doing, what items they needed, and what information they needed. They have, so far, come up with some pretty terrible ways of finding that dungeon.

Now, if the players had come up with something reasonable, and the DM had told them "no, that won't work, you missed your rails" then I'd agree with "railroaded" ... but it doesn't sound like that was the case.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 02:20 PM
They had one option to find the location of the dungeon while grabbing the Disk, they had another option to find the location of the dungeon when i told the player he realised he did not know the location of the dungeon, they had another option when the "Follow the guards to the dungeon" was offered.

They were not discovered, the horses where set out to set foot to the location of the dungeon. At the very least four players realised this, i believe all of them did. When 5 players hide (at first) and then you decide to stand in the middle of the road, i believe that to be another mistake.

One of the players has Darkvision, Scent and Track and would have been able to follow the horses to the dungeon.

Had they led the soldiers pass it would have all worked out.

Why would soldiers go to a dungeon they cannot enter, due to lack of a key? That doesn't seem plausible.

Also, your PCs are outside of town. They are fighting guards, sure, with all that entails, but that does not constitute an invasion. If they decide to go all chaotic stupid and invade everything, well, consequences are in order.

This is not the case. They're fighting soldiers that are clearly identified as antagonists, and doing so in a somewhat logical fashion.

When "not doing what I want" leads to "you all die", then yes, it IS railroading.

Jayabalard
2010-02-02, 02:23 PM
Why would soldiers go to a dungeon they cannot enter, due to lack of a key? That doesn't seem plausible.To prevent the people who stole the key from being able to enter? To set up a base of operations for the people who will be entering, once they have the key. Seems pretty straightforward and logical to me.


When "not doing what I want" leads to "you all die", then yes, it IS railroading.I don't think the DM has even implied that, anywhere. He has, in fact, specifically said that if they come up with something clever he'd allow it. But by his examples, they've mostly come up with ideas that are the opposite of clever.

I agree, the situation, as presented, was too difficult for the party; this is a failure on the players part (not clever enough) and the GM's part (expected them to be too clever). As the GM does more games with this particular party, you'll probably get better at gauging this

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 02:45 PM
To prevent the people who stole the key from being able to enter? To set up a base of operations for the people who will be entering, once they have the key. Seems pretty straightforward and logical to me.

Why? We have no reason to believe that the military knows the players are intent on going to the dungeon. Taking the key to something may serve purposes other than "to open it".

Hell, most of these guards probably know nothing more about these characters than that they're at the center of this latest escapade. Information sharing in a quasi-medevial world can hardly be expected to be ideal.

He's still never answered the question of WHY the characters should want to go through this dungeon, btw. Surely they have an actual reason for such escapades?

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 04:19 PM
So the consequence for not taking the only option presented (realizing that they "don't know where the dungeon is" isn't an option if there's no way of figuring it out aside from following the guard) is either having a whole new adventure or dying? This is why you, as a DM, should always have contingency plans: in this case, provide a number of ways the PCs could discover the location, either with outside help or by themselves. You gave them 2 options (neither particularly viable, given that, without the key, the soldiers wouldn't have bothered going to the dungeon anyway), but flat out denied them the chance to do it themselves...I'd rethink that angle of it.

I never forced them into attacking the guards. And they knew very well they were not attacked (it was pitch dark, they could not have been spotted).

And why would the guards not go to the dungeon even if they do not have the key? they know where the dungeon is, and they might as well assume they are going straight for the dungeon, or at least they will assume the option of the key going straight there.


This sort of makes sense. But it doesn't look like they're assaulting the city. They're just confronting guards who they thought were out to kill them. Makes sense to me. If they had decided to launch a 6-man invasion force, then I'd expect them to die.

They did not only confront the guards, the guards retreated and they are still engaging them towards the city.


He's still never answered the question of WHY the characters should want to go through this dungeon, btw. Surely they have an actual reason for such escapades?

The dungeon is said to contain powerfull items, the leader of the "Underground/Resistance" has asked them to retrieve those items.

Jayabalard
2010-02-02, 04:28 PM
Why? We have no reason to believe that the military knows the players are intent on going to the dungeon. It's not really necessary that the military know that the players are intent on going to the dungeon; if someone steals the key to something, then it's quite logical to add something else to protect that thing, since the lock isn't going to be any protection anymore. You don't need to know what the person who stole the key is going to do, you add guards so that you know what he isn't going to do, namely: "go to the something and unlock it"

I mean, if I were one of the city leaders, and we were planning on sending a missions somewhere in the morning, and someone stole the key for that somewhere and killed the researcher involved during the night and generally made a nuisance of themselves so that the alarm has been raised, then I would almost certainly send out at least part of those soldiers as advance party immediately, to set up a defense at that somewhere.


Taking the key to something may serve purposes other than "to open it". such as? I can't think of much of anything that isn't much more far fetched than sending guards to guard it after the key is stolen.

About the only possibility: steal the key to prevent the city from being able to send their mission, but that still seems a bit daft; I mean, once you have the key, why wouldn't you send your own mission to get the treasure?


Hell, most of these guards probably know nothing more about these characters than that they're at the center of this latest escapade.They don't need to know; they just need report to their leaders that "X researcher has been killed" and "no we couldn't find that disc thingy you wanted us to check on" and then to be given orders as a result of that. There's no reason that wouldn't happen within hours in a city, especially since there's already a planned mission to the dungeon early the next morning, and since the alarm had already been raised due to the PC's activities earlier that night.

Gnaritas
2010-02-02, 04:39 PM
You said this is your 2nd session as a DM: as someone who has DMed a lot, let me tell you that the PCs will always throw a wrench in your carefully laid plans, and it helps the game flow better if you work around it rather than throwing a TPK at them.

You are making it sound like there is going to be a TPK because they did not follow my exact plan and this is my revenge.
That is not true, there are tons of things that could have happened that was not according to my plan that would have led to situations i would have to improvise on, i may not have been happy about (since i told the players i wanted a straightforward plan for the first few (three?) sessions).

But the course of action they have chosen is suicidal if they continue along that path. That has nothing to do with not following "my plan".

Jayabalard
2010-02-02, 04:41 PM
But the course of action they have chosen, is suicidal, if they continue. That has nothing to do with not following "my plan".This group may need a little more than subtle hints; try saying "what you're doing is suicidal; I'm not trying to kill you, but if you throw yourself in front of a bus, you're going to get run over. There's only so many times I can make the bus swerve out of the way before suspension of disbelief just becomes too difficult."

Give them a couple of very clear ways out of the mess, to survive, that is. Then just recycle that dungeon elsewhere in the campaign.

Runeclaw
2010-02-02, 05:28 PM
I think some people have been a bit harsh on you, but yes, you should always expect PCs to do things you don't expect, and you can never assume games will unfold the way you envision. And often times ideas that seem obvious to you just don't occur to players.

For the situation at hand, there are a number of valid possible outcomes that don't involve TPKs, most of which have been touched on.

Assuming the guards retreating towards the city make it back inside the walls to summon reinforcements, a large force won't be mustered quickly or quietly. Make it explicitly clear to the PCs the a large force is being gathered and armed. Ideally, they rethink their plans and hide.

If not, then fight them. It sounds like you have to win any such fight to be true to your setting, but as others have mentioned, this doesn't mean you have to kill them all. Even apart from nets or nonlethal damage, it may be possible to knock them down without killing them outright. Try to hit them with large volleys of relatively low damages, so as not to drop them to dead on one hit. If you're not philosophically opposed to it, possibly fudge any rolls that would kill them outright, so they are just in negative HP. The soldiers could be motivated to stablize and capture disabled characters for imprisonment and interrogation.

Also surrender is a valid option. PCs rarely think of this, but if the enemy is clearly described as too powerful to beat, and they have reason to believe a surrender would be honored, then it should be a viable option. Finally, retreat is also possible. Even with the horses giving the soldiers better movement, its night, so if they can slip away, they might be able to hide.

Also, it doesn't have to be the same outcome for all, although this may mean you split the party and have to run scenes seperately for a little while. Some could escape, some could be captured. Some might even die (a death or two shouldn't be the end of the world as long as some survive).

Captured PCs should be stripped of all weapons, armor, and magic, including spellbooks and the like. If soliders have any reason to suspect some are spell casters, you might bind and gag them - but don't let the soldiers act on any knowledge they don't have IC. The dungeon or prison they are placed in should be difficult, but posisble, for them to escape from. Their possessions should be locked up somewhere where they can eventually find them again when they do get free.

The key to handling TPK situations with anything other than predator or mindless beasts is to invent some reason why the bad guys capture rather than kill. Make the defeat just an introduction to a new challenge - but don't strip it of teeth completely. The fact that they were defeated should suck, but needn't end the game.

If some PCs escape and some PCs are captured, split time between the two groups. Presumably the free PCs will attempt a rescue while the imprisoned try to escape. These seem mutually exlusive, but it will suck for either group to completely fail. Therefore the thing to do is typically something along the lines of allowing the imprisoned PCs to escape the cell but to still be stuck within the castle/dungeon/prison/whatever (perhaps looking for their stuff) and then have the rescuing group manage to sneak or fight their way in and meet them half way.

Jayabalard
2010-02-02, 05:39 PM
Assuming the guards retreating towards the city make it back inside the walls to summon reinforcements, a large force won't be mustered quickly or quietly.It won't be particularily slow either; it's a militaristic city, that's already on alert due to activities during the night.


Make it explicitly clear to the PCs the a large force is being gathered and armed. Ideally, they rethink their plans and hide.Agreed; be very very obvious about it.


If you're not philosophically opposed to it, possibly fudge any rolls that would kill them outright, so they are just in negative HP.Again, agreed. You might even want to talk to the players about it so that they understand that they just suicided, so that that don't make this sort of behavior a habit.

frogspawner
2010-02-02, 06:07 PM
The option of following a group of soldiers might still be valid, though maybe more complicated.
The soldiers do not know that the party does not know the location of the dungeon. They might even believe the party is there to delay the soldiers so the ones with the Disk get more of a headstart.
Not complicated.

If these soldiers typically know where the dungeon is, any prisoner could tell them, if interrogated.

Also, if the soldiers really believe this party might merely be a 'delaying force', a minor force may come out to engage them - while other soldiers ride by to the dungeon - and then retreat back to the safety of the city when their allies have got by. The players might even work out why the riders by-passed them. Failing that, a dying soldier could utter some helpful last words... "Got to get past... got to protect dungeon from rebels... urgh". OK?

The players will have been punished enough by any losses inflicted by the minor force, and the fact that there will now be riders defending the dungeon, and the main exploration force may now set out earlier, reducing their precious 8-hour lead further...

Premier
2010-02-02, 06:29 PM
There's something some people here seem to have forgotten:

TPKs are part of the game. If the PCs make certain decisions, and the setting's own logic would dictate that they die because of these decisions, then let them die. Many 3/4E players and DMs seem to have this assumption that TPKs are somehow "bad game" and should be avoided whatever the cost. What they fail to see is that taking away the chances of losing takes the excitement of the game away. It's like playing chess but with a houserule that you can't be checkmated - pointless.

Now, don't go out of your way to punish your players just because they made some choices you haven't expected. But if they make stupid choices like rushing at an army, let them reap the fair and impartial fruit of their actions. Just let events run their course as they would - say, if a bunch of NPCs were substituted for the PCs.

Splendor
2010-02-02, 07:59 PM
Do they even want to go to the dungeon?

A huge creature is not going to be able to sneak around and follow a group of guards. Well maybe if he's like a mile behind them.

This leader of the underground resistance might he not have contacts inside the guards who can find the location of the dungeon from the notes? Heck maybe the researchers maid would listen to him rant for hours about his research and she knows right where the dungeon is.

The city doesn’t know who took it (after all no one saw the 30’ tall werebear, cause it was night). What if the person who stole the key is taking it back to the person who hired them? Maybe ransom demands for the key will be coming. Maybe a rival city plans to send their own army up to the dungeon. The researcher’s notes could be horribly disorganized or in code, maybe it’ll take the city a week just to figure out his notes and how to find the dungeon without the researcher. Guards aren’t the best people to keep a secret. Once the guards know the location of the dungeon, I'd expect the thieves’ guild to know about 5 minutes later and other adventuring groups to know within a week. Heck the guards were going to set out the next day? The thieves’ guild guys probably left last week for the dungeon. But only a key can open it? Really how about 50 guys with mining picks, dynamite, and spells are always helpful (knock, scrying, legend lore, contact other plane, commune, commune with nature, dimension door, stone shape, gaseous form, passwall). Wouldn’t it be funny if the PCs get there and find out someone else just mined around the entrance weeks ago and already got everything.

Why would the guards go to the dungeon? If you have to have the disc to open the dungeon and the PCs stole the disc, why would they go? Wouldn't the city just hire some bounty hunters to go capture the PCs?
They’re going to set up a base to wait for the PCs? What if they never show up? After all they didn't take any of the notes on how to find the dungeon, and a researcher took EIGHT years to find it.
I wouldn't even send guards to the dungeon for a couple days. I would be investigating the theft and sending bounty hunters to find the HUGE WEREBEAR that was in the road outside the city.

Do you know how quickly people respond to a fire? Now imagine a 30' tall bear approaching your city. Think the guards are going to take their sweet time getting together? Nope. That alarm bell rings and you're going to have ever guard, army member and militia rushing to the walls with bows.

If they attack the city, kill the huge werebear right off the bat and let the others flee. Really a huge werebear at 6th level?

Let them roam around the mountains. And when they get tired remind them that there were notes at the researcher’s house. Those notes should still be in the city.

Gnaritas
2010-02-08, 05:28 PM
It all seemed to work out (thanks to some of the tips you guys gave me).

Most of the original group of soldiers that went out of the city and retreated, were called together by the captain to move around the party with him, thinking the group was there to delay them.

Backup from within the city-gates came when I sent some Knights towards the party (they got slaughtered, pretty quickly) and let the archers at them.
In groups of 8 soldiers i send in 3 forces of soldiers, they handled the first wave, and should have retreated before the 2nd wave arived, but their coordination failed leaving on of them "behind" being attacked by the 2nd wave. The killed some of them, but had to retreat before the 3rd wave arrived.
I had to fudge a roll or two to make a party member survive, and since i only send footsoldiers in the end, they could not follow the party on horse.

This ended the session and they might pick up the hint that they can follow the soldiers that went passed them (Scent+Track).