PDA

View Full Version : (4e) Templates, minions, and existing monsters



Choco
2010-02-02, 01:35 PM
1.) What happens to the level/XP of a Solo monster when I apply a template to it or otherwise boost it? So far I have been handling it the 3.5 way (ignore useless CR, eyeball everything) and looking at solo monsters of a higher level and comparing HP, abilities, defenses, etc. to guess at a level.

2.) If I take a regular monster and just drop it's HP down to 1 and possibly drop it's defenses a bit, can that then count as a minion, as in 1/4 of a monster for the purposes of designing an encounter? I always find myself wanting to put minions into fights but not having any minions available at the party's level that would fit the encounter. Is there any way to do this via the rules anywhere?

Edge of Dreams
2010-02-02, 02:10 PM
1.) What happens to the level/XP of a Solo monster when I apply a template to it or otherwise boost it?

2.)Is there any way to do this [create minions] via the rules anywhere?

1) There's not supposed to be any such thing as a templated solo. A template is supposed to turn a normal into an elite or an elite into a solo. I suppose you could put a template on a solo but ignore the HP increase and treat it as 1-2 levels higher. I would never apply the HP increase from a template to a solo though, it would make them way way too long and boring of a fight.

EDIT: The DMG also specifies exactly how to increase/decrease a monster's level by up to 5. Basically, you add/subtract 1 to/from all defenses and attack rolls per level changed, and 1 to/from damage per 2 levels changed. Also, adjust HP accordingly.

2) DMG has rules in the monster customization section for making minions. Basically it goes like this:
-Minions should never require bookkeeping beyond tracking how many are on the map and where.
-Minions always have 1 hp.
-Missed attacks never hurt minions.
-Minion attacks always do the same amount of damage every time (to save rolling). Pick a value for their damage that seems about average.
-Minions should not have any encounter, daily, or recharge abilities (again, for no bookkeeping)
-XP for minions is 1/4 normal for level.

hamishspence
2010-02-02, 02:12 PM
I suppose you could take Draconomicon 2's Elite template as the baseline for downgrading a Solo into an Elite- then apply your preferred template to turn it back into a Solo.

Thus, you could have a Dragon Wizard, Warlock, etc, or a Chaos Warrior Dragon, or something else.

Choco
2010-02-02, 02:15 PM
1) There's not supposed to be any such thing as a templated solo. A template is supposed to turn a normal into an elite or an elite into a solo. I suppose you could put a template on a solo but ignore the HP increase and treat it as 1-2 levels higher. I would never apply the HP increase from a template to a solo though, it would make them way way too long and boring of a fight.

EDIT: The DMG also specifies exactly how to increase/decrease a monster's level by up to 5. Basically, you add/subtract 1 to/from all defenses and attack rolls per level changed, and 1 to/from damage per 2 levels changed. Also, adjust HP accordingly.


2) DMG has rules in the monster customization section for making minions. Basically it goes like this:
-Minions should never require bookkeeping beyond tracking how many are on the map and where.
-Minions always have 1 hp.
-Missed attacks never hurt minions.
-Minion attacks always do the same amount of damage every time (to save rolling). Pick a value for their damage that seems about average.
-Minions should not have any encounter, daily, or recharge abilities (again, for no bookkeeping)
-XP for minions is 1/4 normal for level.

Ah, I kinda figured as much about the templated solos. Guess I have to continue eyeballing it.

As for the minions, I completely forgot about that section. Luckily I remembered enough to do basically all of what was mentioned except the encounter/daily/recharge powers. Of course I never used one, but they were on the list...

Thanks, this seems to have answered my questions.

EDIT:

I suppose you could take Draconomicon 2's Elite template as the baseline for downgrading a Solo into an Elite- then apply your preferred template to turn it back into a Solo.

Thus, you could have a Dragon Wizard, Warlock, etc, or a Chaos Warrior Dragon, or something else.

Hmmm, that is also a good idea. I do not have either of the Draconomicons though, so I'm gonna have to work on that next time I have some spare money to throw around.

hamishspence
2010-02-02, 02:23 PM
Draconomicon 1 handled it's Warlock Dragon slightly differently making it slightly more powerful- since its breath weapon didn't get downgraded to Encounter Power.

Basically, it advanced it a few levels, and added a lot of warlock powers- possibly based on the assumption that the action economy wouldn't make access to all those powers game-breaking.

So, they've already statted offical monsters that are basically, to all intents and purposes, templated solos, so just adding powers and Hit Dice does have precedent.

So- just advancing the target solo, say, 5 levels, and adding the appropriate powers, could work.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-02, 02:25 PM
1) There's not supposed to be any such thing as a templated solo. A template is supposed to turn a normal into an elite or an elite into a solo. I suppose you could put a template on a solo but ignore the HP increase and treat it as 1-2 levels higher. I would never apply the HP increase from a template to a solo though, it would make them way way too long and boring of a fight.

I wouldn't up the level for adding a template to a solo. Up level typically involves more effective attacks (better to hit and damage) and higher defenses and HP. NOT just adding more powers.

You only get so many actions per turn, 200 powers that are all appropriate for a level 10 monster is still a level 10 monster, just an excessively complicated one.

A well designed solo should already be doing damage with multiple attacks every round, it's biggest limit is action economy; which isn't helped by adding a few more powers; so if all you're doing is adding more level appropriate powers then don't up the level.

If I added a template to a solo I'd most likely just add the powers, maybe downgrade one of the existing powers, and call it a day, leaving the creature as a solo of the same level. (Basically what Edge of Dreams recomends.)


EDIT: The DMG also specifies exactly how to increase/decrease a monster's level by up to 5. Basically, you add/subtract 1 to/from all defenses and attack rolls per level changed, and 1 to/from damage per 2 levels changed. Also, adjust HP accordingly.

2) DMG has rules in the monster customization section for making minions. Basically it goes like this:
-Minions should never require bookkeeping beyond tracking how many are on the map and where.
-Minions always have 1 hp.
-Missed attacks never hurt minions.
-Minion attacks always do the same amount of damage every time (to save rolling). Pick a value for their damage that seems about average.
-Minions should not have any encounter, daily, or recharge abilities (again, for no bookkeeping)
-XP for minions is 1/4 normal for level.

Don't use average damage. Monster builder or the DMG II will give you typical minion damage at a given level, but it's a lot closer to minimum than to average (I've used half average and it comes quite close to the DMG II standard and allows some variation between different minion attacks).


I suppose you could take Draconomicon 2's Elite template as the baseline for downgrading a Solo into an Elite- then apply your preferred template to turn it back into a Solo.

Thus, you could have a Dragon Wizard, Warlock, etc, or a Chaos Warrior Dragon, or something else.

I did that for one monster just as a test. It basically comes out, "downgrade one significant recharge power to encounter; remove one minor or immediate reaction attack power, and add the template's powers".

Works OK, and you don't need a hard rule to do it.

I don't like most templates, they mostly DON'T give minor or reaction powers or area effects, and thus don't do anything for action economy and the ability to harm multiple foes at once, which is the big thing elites and solos need that standards don't.

DougL

hamishspence
2010-02-02, 02:30 PM
Class templates? That is, the method of upgrading a standard monster to an elite monster by adding a few of the powers from a PC class?

These might synergize well with a solo, if picked carefully.

Hal
2010-02-02, 02:45 PM
I always find myself wanting to put minions into fights but not having any minions available at the party's level that would fit the encounter. Is there any way to do this via the rules anywhere?

I never picked up the MM, so I don't know if they still have a nice table putting all the book's monsters in order of difficulty (CR in 3.5, so here either by level or by XP). Still, my preferred solution has always been to refluff monsters to suit your needs. For example, you need level 10 minions to be goblins, but the only level 10 minions you can find are dragonlings. I just use the same stat block, but change any description to be goblinoid. Claw/bite? No, axe attack. You get the idea.

Mando Knight
2010-02-02, 03:01 PM
I never picked up the MM, so I don't know if they still have a nice table putting all the book's monsters in order of difficulty (CR in 3.5, so here either by level or by XP).
Yep, still in there, and it also lists their role in the same line.

For solo monsters getting class powers, I usually don't sweat it if it's a reasonable number of powers that are already similar to what the monster already has. I'll throw in at-wills on the fly, and drop in a few thematic encounter powers. Then I check the new powers' damage output and scale the static modifiers according to the monster level. I'd recommend holding back on granting multiple encounter or daily powers to a monster without also leveling it up and swapping out old powers, however, since a monster that uses 2 high-damage encounter powers and 4 medium/low-damage at-wills is weaker than a monster that uses 6 different high-damage encounter powers and no at-wills.

Another mechanic you can steal is Bahamut's breath weapon: it's three different powers that use the same "slot," so all three are expended and recharged together, even though Bahamut only uses one at a time.

Draz74
2010-02-02, 03:18 PM
2.) If I take a regular monster and just drop it's HP down to 1 and possibly drop it's defenses a bit, can that then count as a minion, as in 1/4 of a monster for the purposes of designing an encounter? I always find myself wanting to put minions into fights but not having any minions available at the party's level that would fit the encounter. Is there any way to do this via the rules anywhere?

I'm under the impression that Minions are supposed to have low damage and 1 HP, but have normal Defenses and attack roll bonuses for a monster of their level.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-02-02, 04:08 PM
The D&D Adventure Tools (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Tools.aspx) allows you to build Minions and pretty much anything else.

Buy DDI for one month ($10) and you'll get the full version of the monster builder and the fully updated Character Builder - and you can keep both after your month subscription has expired.