3.5: Demogorgon for the 20th Level Party: Can it be done?

[MandibleBones]

Anyone who has seen the end of the Savage Tide campaign arc knows that Demogorgon is a tough fight (in the way that the Pacific Ocean is sort of damp). During this fight, your party is about 20th level. Admittedly,
You have the help of, if all goes well, no less than all three Eladrin Lords, Orcus, Grazz't, Iggwilv the Witch Queen, several minor demon lords, a couple of devils, Demogorgon's own general and a vast army of demons and Eladrin,
but this is still the same block of stats and tactics that took down, in less than two turns, my 25th-level Batman abjurer (who, by the way, soloed Orcus).

So I'm wondering: CAN a four-person party of 20th Level characters beat him? How would YOU do it?

[arguskos]

Considering that the Prince of Demons has like four printed stat blocks, it really depends which one we're discussing. I'm not familiar with the Savage Tides block though. If it's like the FC1 block, you can't really. He has astral projection and project image, making it rather tough to pin the real fellow down.

If you managed to lock him in one spot, well, his touch AC is comically low. Just orbnuke him into tomorrow.

[hamishspence]

Basically, it's the FC1 block upgraded to CR 33, following the FC1 suggested rules for upgrading demon lords. It has a few extra powers, as the rules suggest.

[arguskos]

Basically, it's the FC1 block upgraded to CR 33, following the FC1 suggested rules for upgrading demon lords. It has a few extra powers, as the rules suggest.
Well, unless his touch AC and immunities got some strong increases, just find him, and orbnuke him into next week. It might take a few, given that he's CR 33 and likely has 1000+ hp.

If orbs aren't in use, well, use some other strong attack trick to knock him down. Maw of Chaos comes to mind as a good spell. The Mailman build could do it no sweat. Similar stuff would be my advice.

A straight-up fight, even against the FC1 version, will end in everyone getting slaughtered. He hits pretty hard, does it a lot, has a lot of life, and some strong non-touch defenses. I highly recommend you either use minions/demons/devils to absorb his actions and weaken him, or break out some strong, if cheesy, tactics to hammer him down.

[hamishspence]

The adventure itself has ways of reducing his capabilities so he's not at "full power"

Them vs a full-power CR 33 Demogorgon might be a little nasty.

He still has a bad touch AC though- making this his weak spot.

[MandibleBones]

Orbnuking him into next week worked, but even with quickened orbs it's just not fast enough. Those two full attacks per round, overcoming pretty much everything, are brutal. How does one get by those?

[arguskos]

If it's not fast enough, you're not hitting hard enough. Last I saw, a dedicated orbificer can get 500+ damage per orb, and can toss out like 4 a round or something crazy. If that's not enough to melt Demo's face, uh... damn.

In order to avoid his attacks, stack miss chances and similar stuff. Have Superior Invisibility. Be Astrally Projected too. Stuff like that.

[Draz74]

As far as locating him goes ... does he have anything that would make him immune to Metafaculty? If not, many a Level 20 Psion or Ardent could find him, no problem.

[hamishspence]

In order to avoid his attacks, stack miss chances and similar stuff. Have Superior Invisibility. Be Astrally Projected too. Stuff like that.

Demogorgon comes with a undispellable True Seeing as standard, making this method difficult.

[MandibleBones]

If it's not fast enough, you're not hitting hard enough. Last I saw, a dedicated orbificer can get 500+ damage per orb, and can toss out like 4 a round or something crazy. If that's not enough to melt Demo's face, uh... damn.

Clearly I am missing out on the good stuff - how does one do 500+ per orb? And 4 per round? I suppose Twin Spell would get you two of them, but...

[Milskidasith]

Clearly I am missing out on the good stuff - how does one do 500+ per orb? And 4 per round? I suppose Twin Spell would get you two of them, but...

Twinned Quickened Repeated Energy Adamixture'd Searing Spell'd Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire (or if he's immune to fire, some other orb; fire just comes with daze) with an add on of sonic damage, and a bunch of CL increasers for your other feat slots. That would give you, IIRC, full damage in two elements, half of it ignoring immunity, dealing 9 per caster level in each element, 8 times per turn, with more if you use ways to get more swift actions.


It takes a lot, but Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix, and high spellcraft can do wonders.

[Douglas]

It takes a lot, but Arcane Thesis, Incantatrix, and high spellcraft can do wonders.
High spellcraft isn't really relevant to Incantatrix Orb abuse. The abilities that use spellcraft have to be applied either to someone else's casting or after the fact. The only Incantatrix abilities relevant to the Orbs are the bonus metamagic feats and Improved Metamagic.

Now if you get some way to make yourself eligible for the "someone else", such as the Wu Jen spell Body Outside Body and having the clones use Cooperative Metamagic on you, that's another matter, but that's a tad harder to pull off.

[faceroll]

Well, unless his touch AC and immunities got some strong increases, just find him, and orbnuke him into next week. It might take a few, given that he's CR 33 and likely has 1000+ hp.

The problem is getting enough rounds to do that.


If orbs aren't in use, well, use some other strong attack trick to knock him down. Maw of Chaos comes to mind as a good spell. The Mailman build could do it no sweat. Similar stuff would be my advice.

Maw of Chaos does nothing to demons.


A straight-up fight, even against the FC1 version, will end in everyone getting slaughtered. He hits pretty hard, does it a lot, has a lot of life, and some strong non-touch defenses. I highly recommend you either use minions/demons/devils to absorb his actions and weaken him, or break out some strong, if cheesy, tactics to hammer him down.

Good advice. His ability to take a lot of actions is rather powerful.

If you can get out in the open, where you have hundreds of feet between him and you, you may fare better.

[MandibleBones]

Good advice. His ability to take a lot of actions is rather powerful.

Unfortunately, he ALSO has an army of demons... and anything smaller than, say, a Balor is unlikely to even faze him.


If you can get out in the open, where you have hundreds of feet between him and you, you may fare better.

Except he has a base move of 60 or more and can take one of his two full rounds to run all-out and the other to full attack.

[Volos]

You could just convince him to stand still long enough with a proper diplomancy roll. -joke-

[Mordokai]

It is supposed to be a boss fight to an epic adventure path. If that is not hard, then I don't know what IS.

All the post formating is strictly optional :smalltongue:

[MandibleBones]

Well, yes, and level 25 wizards aren't supposed to be able to solo it anyway. It's more of a though exercise: what party would you use?

It's immune to a lot of elemental stuff, has epic damage reduction, et cetera.

[arguskos]

The problem is getting enough rounds to do that.
You need ONE. Use Greater Celerity. Issue solved.


Maw of Chaos does nothing to demons.
Totally forgot that clause. Good catch.


Good advice. His ability to take a lot of actions is rather powerful.

If you can get out in the open, where you have hundreds of feet between him and you, you may fare better.
Eh, yeah, but he also has greater teleport, making distance a non-issue.

Best way to do this is still go first, orb him to oblivion and back. Now, if the CR 33 Demogorgon has ways to go first as well, or Time Stop, or gets a surprise round... ya'll are shafted.

Also, should you actually have to do this the hard way, use something like Gate to go and get a scary critter, like a Dream Larva or something. It'll at least stand for a few rounds, buying you time to breach his defenses and attack again.

EDIT: My ideal level 20 would be the following:
-The Mailman (to actually kill Demogorgon)
-A Malconvoker (to get minions to absorb hits and draw aggro from the Mailman)
-A Rogue of some kind with HiPS (from the Dark template) who has a way to make some devastating sneak attacks and who can UMD scrolls of Gate for things like Dream Larva.
-The King of Pong, to control Demogorgon's hordes of minions.

[Douglas]

I don't think I have the stat block in question to check myself, but I'm curious: how would Team Solars (see sig) fare against this version of Demogorgon?

[FishAreWet]

I don't think I have the stat block in question to check myself, but I'm curious: how would Team Solars (see sig) fare against this version of Demogorgon?

One of them would utterly destroy him.

He's not that strong. Any team of optimzed level 25 should be able to dominate him, especially if they have Epic Spells...

[Mordokai]

Well, yes, and level 25 wizards aren't supposed to be able to solo it anyway. It's more of a though exercise: what party would you use?

It's immune to a lot of elemental stuff, has epic damage reduction, et cetera.

Mandatory note: I haven't played that adventure, or any of the adventures in ST adventure path. However, since I didn't expected my group to ever play that particular adventure path (let alone finish it), I did read it. Which gives me a little insight on everything.

With that in mind... I believe the real challenge of that particular adventure is to knock the big D down to his CR 23 version. It is not an easy task by any measure, but is it possible. Be it by a really smart, lucky or metagaming party, it is possible. The five tasks you are given are hard, but if you manage to complete them all, you've made a HUGE progress. With Iggwilv's help, you CAN finish the big guy, at least at his CR 23 version. His CR 33 version is just loco and I think if anybody wants to fight that, they are either crazy, deity or just found themselves in wrong adventure.

[faceroll]

Except he has a base move of 60 or more and can take one of his two full rounds to run all-out and the other to full attack.

That's what superior invisibility is for. Chain ocular persist that on the whole party. True Sight only goes out to 120'.


You need ONE. Use Greater Celerity. Issue solved.

Can you get enough actions to bring him down in 1 round? I don't know how much HP he's got. I guess if you're using Dragonlance, you could probably murder him with that poorly worded feat.


Eh, yeah, but he also has greater teleport, making distance a non-issue.

You just need to stay out of range of his true seeing. Then he'll have difficulty finding you, especially given that you have a ton of allies for him to focus on.

[arguskos]

Can you get enough actions to bring him down in 1 round? I don't know how much HP he's got. I guess if you're using Dragonlance, you could probably murder him with that poorly worded feat.
The Mailman certainly can. Granted, I don't want to test it, but I have faith a truly nutter orb mage could end him in one round.


You just need to stay out of range of his true seeing. Then he'll have difficulty finding you, especially given that you have a ton of allies for him to focus on.
True, but he's probably got an Int of 30+. He can deduce your general area from where you spell originated from, and teleport close enough. You might get a round, then you have to rely on allies (also called sacrifices).

Ideally, that one round will end him, but he's tough and smart, so in case it doesn't, you need every ally you can lay your grubby little paws on. I still suggest Gate to get scary stuff. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

Twinned Quickened Repeated Energy Adamixture'd Searing Spell'd Maximized Empowered Orb of Fire (or if he's immune to fire, some other orb; fire just comes with daze) with an add on of sonic damage, and a bunch of CL increasers for your other feat slots. That would give you, IIRC, full damage in two elements, half of it ignoring immunity, dealing 9 per caster level in each element, 8 times per turn, with more if you use ways to get more swift actions.


Searing Spell goes through immunity.

[Flickerdart]

True, but he's probably got an Int of 30+. He can deduce your general area from where you spell originated from, and teleport close enough. You might get a round, then you have to rely on allies (also called sacrifices). :
Contingency Dimension Door. He teleports? So did you, and yours went first. This buys you an extra nuking round before you have to rely on Craft Contingent Spell or mooks with Benign Transportation scrolls.

[faceroll]

Searing Spell goes through immunity.

Half of a searing spell.

[Flickerdart]

There's a Cold version of Searing that does full damage, isn't there?

[hamishspence]

Piercing Cold, yes.

However, it has text stating explicitly that it does not work on creatures with the Cold subtype. Searing Spell has no such text for creatures with the Fire subtype.

[Douglas]

Piercing Cold does half damage to immune creatures, just like Searing Spell. It's actually worse in that some creatures (those with the cold subtype) are still immune despite the feat.

[Draz74]

Incidentally, since Douglas posted in this thread, I'm sure you could take four characters out of his Team Solars, level them up to 20, and that they could then take on Demogorgon. :smallamused:

[JaronK]

I don't know the stat block, but what stops a solid charger from one round TKOing this guy? If his touch AC is weak, all you have to do is have Wraithstrike up and running (which can be hard to do on a lot of chargers, but is by no means impossible).

By level 20, you should easily be able to do 2k+ in a round.

JaronK

[MandibleBones]

I don't know the stat block, but what stops a solid charger from one round TKOing this guy? If his touch AC is weak, all you have to do is have Wraithstrike up and running (which can be hard to do on a lot of chargers, but is by no means impossible).

By level 20, you should easily be able to do 2k+ in a round.

JaronK

Because he's got reach out to like 40 feet, will almost certainly hit on a AoO, and can then trip, grab, or do any number of other nasty things.

[Volkov]

Unfourtunately, Demogorgon has a level 23 Lich Wizard named the Blood Empress at his beck and call(she lives there, so he can boss her around), Twelve high level death knights, including Kargoth the Betrayer, and an advanced balor. Not to mention that he has Dagon as an Ally, who is only slightly less powerful than Demogorgon if not his equal or superior, as well as Malcanthet, who is only a little less powerful than Dagon, as well as other Demon Lord allies, compared to most Demon Lords, Demogorgon's list of allies is fairly long, If you are going to fight him, you are going to have to fight all of them. That and an army of Demons so vast that they'd be able to overrun the flanness in a day, tops. If he can call in his friends, any level 20 party is screwed, simply because of the Epic level Lich.

[hamishspence]

In the Savage Tide path as in Dungeon, it is possible to gain her support against him, so you won't have to fight her.

[Volkov]

In the Savage Tide path as in Dungeon, it is possible to gain her support against him, so you won't have to fight her.

The Blood Empress or Malcanthet?

[MandibleBones]

Also, Malcanthet sits out so she can claim she was supporting whichever side won.

If Dagon is comparable in power to CR32 Orcus, he's a pushover. The problem is the difference in power between CR32 Orcus and CR33 Demogorgon is so vast, it's amazing.

If that ram-headed undead pig-demon didn't have that stupid artifact, he wouldn't have even damaged my Abjurer.

[ZeroNumerous]

... , any level 20 party is screwed, simply because of the Epic level Lich.

... Any level 20 party at all? Any non-theoretical optimization party is screwed, I agree. But any party at all? I disagree immensely there.

[Volkov]

Also, Malcanthet sits out so she can claim she was supporting whichever side won.

If Dagon is comparable in power to CR32 Orcus, he's a pushover. The problem is the difference in power between CR32 Orcus and CR33 Demogorgon is so vast, it's amazing.

If that ram-headed undead pig-demon didn't have that stupid artifact, he wouldn't have even damaged my Abjurer.
He's probably stronger. He was so powerful none of the Eladrin when they invaded the Abyss, or any of the Tanar'ri when they overthrew the other Obyriths, nor even the queen of chaos herself dared to lift a finger against him. Yes, the queen of fricken chaos who killed Obox-ob's true form. And his aspect is as powerful as Orcus, and this is a pale shadow of his former power, and yet the queen was scared enough of Dagon to not make a move against him. Of course, if you are standing against Demogorgon, you can expect support from Graz'zt, Orcus, and The Lords of the nine. Bel and Asmodeus Especially.

[Volkov]

... Any level 20 party at all? Any non-theoretical optimization party is screwed, I agree. But any party at all? I disagree immensely there.

Epic Magic>Anything any nonepic party can do.

[faceroll]

Can Team Solar handle 3 Greater Dispel Magics/round?
Do the enemies have access to Disjunction?


Epic Magic>Anything any nonepic party can do.

You mean epic magic with arbitrarily high DC mitigation and an unlimited amount of time.

[Volkov]

Can Team Solar handle 3 Greater Dispel Magics/round?
Do the enemies have access to Disjunction?



You mean epic magic with arbitrarily high DC mitigation and an unlimited amount of time.

The Day an level 20 wizard beats someone who has three on him who is equally if not more competent and has been around for hundreds of years longer to research more Epic spells is the day when an Iron Colossus mates with an Great Wyrm Rust Dragon.

[The Glyphstone]

The Day an level 20 wizard beats someone who has three on him who is equally if not more competent and has been around for hundreds of years longer to research more Epic spells is the day when an Iron Colossus mates with an Great Wyrm Rust Dragon.

Incarnate Construct?:smallsmile:

It's still a Colossal Giant, though it loses all the cool abilities. Half-Rust Dragon Colossi ahoy!

[faceroll]

The Day an level 20 wizard beats someone who has three on him who is equally if not more competent and has been around for hundreds of years longer to research more Epic spells is the day when an Iron Colossus mates with an Great Wyrm Rust Dragon.

Dude, as long as we're using custom stuff, you don't even need to be epic level. You just have a wish trap that makes you items with epic spells in it.

[Volkov]

Dude, as long as we're using custom stuff, you don't even need to be epic level. You just have a wish trap that makes you items with epic spells in it.

Which the lich would have already done before the wizard was a speck in his father's eye.

[MandibleBones]

Okay, leaving the Epic Wizard out of the equation (since ST does not list her as one of DG's allies), and leaving Epic Spells out on the allies' side (since I've never actually played a game with a DM who allowed Epic Spellcasting, including the one that went to 25...

Not sure about Team Solar.

[Volkov]

You still have Dagon to deal with, and an army of balors. The Balors would overwhelm and defeat the Solar's with their vorpal blades. Then they'd attack your party and decapitate you into extinction.

[MandibleBones]

Well, ruling out the fact that you have your OWN army of Balors fighting theirs, and Orcus, Grazz't, Iggwilv, Morwel, Faerinaal, Gwynarwhyf, Charon the Boatman, and whoever else you can dig up (Pazuzu comes to mind) to fight against Dagon and whatever other Demon Princes Demo can dig up, I'm really only worried about Big D himself here.

[Volkov]

Well, ruling out the fact that you have your OWN army of Balors fighting theirs, and Orcus, Grazz't, Iggwilv, Morwel, Faerinaal, Gwynarwhyf, Charon the Boatman, and whoever else you can dig up (Pazuzu comes to mind) to fight against Dagon and whatever other Demon Princes Demo can dig up, I'm really only worried about Big D himself here.

Charon is a Yugoloth, and thus wouldn't have any balors.

[MandibleBones]

Charon is a Yugoloth, and thus wouldn't have any balors.

And your Balors don't belong to Charon, so that works out quite nicely.

[ZeroNumerous]

Epic Magic>Anything any nonepic party can do.

Pun-Pun. Oh, look. I won.

[JaronK]

Because he's got reach out to like 40 feet, will almost certainly hit on a AoO, and can then trip, grab, or do any number of other nasty things.

Well, luckily there are ways to ignore AoOs. I'd probably send in a Necropolitan (for the immunities, disguised as something living) Orc with the full Spirited Charge and Shock Trooper lines, and a level of Warblade for Battle Leader's Charge or something similar. That ought to do the trick.

JaronK

[Volkov]

If all else fails, Demogorgon has a crap ton of artifacts lying around to blast your party with. Also, if threatened, he can simply retreat to the City in his layer, which has tens of thousands of demons at the very least.

[faceroll]

Which the lich would have already done before the wizard was a speck in his father's eye.

That means absolutely nothing.


You still have Dagon to deal with, and an army of balors. The Balors would overwhelm and defeat the Solar's with their vorpal blades. Then they'd attack your party and decapitate you into extinction.

Balor army. lol. What genius put that together.

[FishAreWet]

He can be one hit by any optimized charger.
He can be one hit by any optimized blaster.

The answer is yes. Even at level 20 I'd bet. You don't let him get near you. You have contingencies and Celerity. Team Solar would stomp him. Like, I'm confused why anyone is questioning it how hard they would stomp him.

[Volkov]

He can be one hit by any optimized charger.
He can be one hit by any optimized blaster.

The answer is yes. Even at level 20 I'd bet. You don't let him get near you. You have contingencies and Celerity. Team Solar would stomp him. Like, I'm confused why anyone is questioning it how hard they would stomp him.

Ten thousand balors>Solars.

[faceroll]

Ten thousand balors>Solars.

I'm pretty sure I could kill an infinite amount of balors if any balor was within 100 feet of at least 3 other balors and I got to go first.

Death Throes makes balors about the worst possible choice to mass, as once four of them pop, they all go BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.

[FishAreWet]

Ten thousand balors>Solars.

10000 of anything holding a Vorpal weapon>Anything with a head.

That's a good point. It's also not what the thread was about. I don't think Demogorgon is 10000 Balors. And if he's allowed to bring his army, can't you bring yours? You're level 20, your diplomacy mod is in the 100s. Ask Zaphkiel and the rest of Mount Celestia to hep you out.

[Drakevarg]

I'm pretty sure I could kill an infinite amount of balors if any balor was within 100 feet of at least 3 other balors and I got to go first.

Death Throes makes balors about the worst possible choice to mass, as once four of them pop, they all go BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM.

Balors average out at 290 HP. They can handle Death Throes to the face.

[faceroll]

10000 of anything holding a Vorpal weapon>Anything with a head.

Unless, for some reason, you've decided to make your army highly explosive.

[faceroll]

Balors average out at 290 HP. They can handle a Death Throes to the face.

But can they handle three or four? Remember, Volkov is swarming the Solars with Balors, for some bizarre reason. Given a certain density of Balors, the minimum you have to kill to kill all of them is hilariously low.

[FishAreWet]

Balors average out at 290 HP. They can handle Death Throes to the face.

100 damage, reflex for half. Assuming they make every save, kill 6 of them and you killed all of them. Team Solar doesn't care. Why? Evasion.

[Drakevarg]

Consider the fact that 10000 exploding balors would also destory everything in about a mile radius.

And it's 85 damage, reflex for half. Balors have DR. And you can't guarentee the Solars would make Evasion 10000 times. Especially considering Solars don't have Evasion.

[jseah]

How about immunity to death by damage?

Regeneration + Energy Immunity / Type + Deathless/Necropolitan

That should get rid of alot of threats.

[faceroll]

Consider the fact that 10000 exploding balors would also destory everything in about a mile radius.

And it's 85 damage, reflex for half. Balors have DR. And you can't guarentee the Solars would make Evasion 10000 times.

Team Solar goes first, thanks to Celerity, Foresight, Superior Invisibility, etc etc etc.

They kill six balors from 101 feet away in the surprise round. Thousands of Balors just blow up, because they were standing too close together.

[edit]
Team Solar is composed of 5 level 20 characters and one actual Solar. They all parade around Shapechanged into Solars, though. Or something like that. They are also immune to death from damage.

[MandibleBones]

Consider the fact that 10000 exploding balors would also destory everything in about a mile radius.

And it's 85 damage, reflex for half. Balors have DR. And you can't guarentee the Solars would make Evasion 10000 times. Especially considering Solars don't have Evasion.

But Team Solar does - at least, most of them do. And rings of Evasion are cheap.

[FishAreWet]

Consider the fact that 10000 exploding balors would also destory everything in about a mile radius.

And it's 85 damage, reflex for half. Balors have DR. And you can't guarentee the Solars would make Evasion 10000 times. Especially considering Solars don't have Evasion.

DR doesn't apply and SRD says 100. Maybe there is an inconcsistency.

ANNNND we're talking about Team Solar, not a team of solars.

[ZeroNumerous]

Balor stat block (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor).

"... immunity to electricity, fire, poison ..."

[faceroll]

DR doesn't apply and SRD says 100. Maybe there is an inconcsistency.

ANNNND we're talking about Team Solar, not a team of solars.

DR actually does apply, since it's non-elemental damage from an Ex source.


Balor stat block (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor).

"... immunity to electricity, fire, poison ..."

Death Throes damage is untyped.

[Volkov]

10000 of anything holding a Vorpal weapon>Anything with a head.

That's a good point. It's also not what the thread was about. I don't think Demogorgon is 10000 Balors. And if he's allowed to bring his army, can't you bring yours? You're level 20, your diplomacy mod is in the 100s. Ask Zaphkiel and the rest of Mount Celestia to hep you out.

To kill demogorgon is to give the devils a permanent advantage in the blood war, Zaphkiel won't help. And if the devils have an advantage, over time they will conquer the demons and everyone is screwed.

Don't forget, each balor can summon more demons. And if Demogorgon doesn't want to be blown up, he just flees to the city and the party is swamped by his tens if not hundreds of thousands of utterly loyal, stark raving, foaming at the mouth mad demons.

[MandibleBones]

To kill demogorgon is to give the devils a permanent advantage in the blood war, Zaphkiel won't help. And if the devils have an advantage, over time they will conquer the demons and everyone is screwed.

Considering Demogorgon's goal here is to Unmake Creation, I think Zaphkiel might consider making an exception just this once.

[Volkov]

Considering Demogorgon's goal here is to Unmake Creation, I think Zaphkiel might consider making an exception just this once.

If Demogorgon loses, Asmodeus wins, and vice versa it's as simple as that. Once the demons are subjected, Asmodeus will ally with the Oinoloth and the General of Gehenna and storm the upper planes and we all become slaves to the baatezu forever.

[MandibleBones]

If Demogorgon loses, Asmodeus wins, and vice versa it's as simple as that. Once the demons are subjected, Asmodeus will ally with the Oinoloth and the General of Gehenna and storm the upper planes and we all become slaves to the baatezu forever.

All of which can possibly be prevented.

If creation is unmade, it's not exactly like there's anywhere to go from there.

[Volkov]

All of which can possibly be prevented.

If creation is unmade, it's not exactly like there's anywhere to go from there.

Evil outsiders vastly outnumber good ones, it is a bygone conclusion that the only reason why good still exists is because evil is too busy pummeling itself to wipe it out. Take away the blood war and the upper and middle planes go down hard.

[Optimystik]

Evil outsiders vastly outnumber good ones, it is a bygone conclusion that the only reason why good still exists is because evil is too busy pummeling itself to wipe it out. Take away the blood war and the upper and middle planes go down hard.

Actually, if the Neutral planes allied with the Good ones against Evil, they'd probably hold the line.

The problem is that existence wouldn't survive a conflict on that scale longer than a few moments.

[Volkov]

Actually, if the Neutral planes allied with the Good ones against Evil, they'd probably hold the line.

The problem is that existence wouldn't survive a conflict on that scale longer than a few moments.
The Far Realm beings might keep existence around to amuse themselves. After all, they are obscenely powerful. Not to mention, Kurtlmak can provide the Baatezu with a stream of soldiers of an truly obscene size. And since the kobold petitioners would be constantly going to war, there would be no space problems in his Realm, which means, with all the kobolds dying in the universe, Hell's armies are going to swell to an number so obscenely large that words would not describe it. Same goes for Maglubiyet.

[Douglas]

Can Team Solar handle 3 Greater Dispel Magics/round?
The lowest DC to dispel any of Team Solar's buffs is 50. A natural 20 with the maximum bonus from caster level for GDM will only get you 40. To have any chance at all of dispelling even a single spell, you would have to get a minimum of +10 above and beyond the dispel check's caster level cap. This is possible, certainly, but it requires a very specialized build.


Do the enemies have access to Disjunction?
Team Solars can block the first dozen or so Disjunctions cast at them. If you manage to do them all in one round that would decrease the limit a bit, but they would still be able to handle at least six.


Ten thousand balors>Solars.
I believe he was referring to Team Solars from my sig, not an army of actual Solars from the Monster Manual.


You still have Dagon to deal with, and an army of balors. The Balors would overwhelm and defeat the Solar's with their vorpal blades. Then they'd attack your party and decapitate you into extinction.
Check the party linked in my sig, as that is what is actually under discussion here. If you read that and still think an army of Balors would win...

[Volkov]

The lowest DC to dispel any of Team Solar's buffs is 50. A natural 20 with the maximum bonus from caster level for GDM will only get you 40. To have any chance at all of dispelling even a single spell, you would have to get a minimum of +10 above and beyond the dispel check's caster level cap. This is possible, certainly, but it requires a very specialized build.


Team Solars can block the first dozen or so Disjunctions cast at them. If you manage to do them all in one round that would decrease the limit a bit, but they would still be able to handle at least six.


I believe he was referring to Team Solars from my sig, not an army of actual Solars from the Monster Manual.


Check the party linked in my sig, as that is what is actually under discussion here. If you read that and still think an army of Balors would win...
If that won't work, how about millions of demons of all kinds, the cults of Demogorgon and his allies, thousands of fiendish and half-fiend creatures, at least a dozen demon lords and princes, thousands of yugoloth mercenaries, Ao knows how many artifacts, at least one god, hundreds of death knights, vampires, and liches, the fact that Demogorgon can more or less alter his layer at a whim, the demons all of his demons can summon, thousands of constructs, and the fact that balors can cast implode.

[absolmorph]

If that won't work, how about millions of demons of all kinds, the cults of Demogorgon and his allies, thousands of fiendish and half-fiend creatures, at least a dozen demon lords and princes, thousands of yugoloth mercenaries, Ao knows how many artifacts, at least one god, hundreds of death knights, vampires, and liches, the fact that Demogorgon can more or less alter his layer at a whim, the demons all of his demons can summon, thousands of constructs, and the fact that balors can cast implode.
Ten bucks on Team Solar.

[FishAreWet]

If that won't work, how about millions of demons of all kinds, the cults of Demogorgon and his allies, thousands of fiendish and half-fiend creatures, at least a dozen demon lords and princes, thousands of yugoloth mercenaries, Ao knows how many artifacts, at least one god, hundreds of death knights, vampires, and liches, the fact that Demogorgon can more or less alter his layer at a whim, the demons all of his demons can summon, thousands of constructs, and the fact that balors can cast implode.

What is your point? That you can imagine a theoretical non-stated out army that is capable of beating Team Solar?

[absolmorph]

What is your point? That you can imagine a theoretical non-stated out army that is capable of beating Team Solar?
Pun-pun creates simulacrum of himself.

[Volkov]

What is your point? That you can imagine a theoretical non-stated out army that is capable of beating Team Solar?

Demogorgon has access to resources most BBEG can only dream of. And that would be his total army. Totaling omewhere in the hundreds of millions.

[Runestar]

IIRC, there are avenues the party can pursue to bring demogorgon down to its cr23 FC1 incarnation. It's tough but ultimately, I think any solo BBEG loses to the party for one inescapable reason - the party outactions it 6:1 (or in this case, just 3:1).

So any time your party can successfully get extra actions and / or deny demogorgon the use of its actions, and sustain this advantage over a period of time, victory should be yours. Slowly but inexorably. That is why battlefield control is so much sought-after and highly rated. :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Demogorgon has access to resources most BBEG can only dream of. And that would be his total army. Totaling omewhere in the hundreds of millions.

Does he carry this gigantic army around with him 24/7 wherever he goes? I'm sure the original scenario was to attack Demogorgon, not be attacked by him. If Big D is only dangerous because of this omgwtfbbq army of doom that you've put forth, then it's trivial for a 20th level party to ambush him, he's not known for any sort of oracular powers. It'll just be him and his closest allies versus the group, and the OP specifically mentioned that most of his traditional friends can either be turned against him or convinced to sit it out.

[Volkov]

IIRC, there are avenues the party can pursue to bring demogorgon down to its cr23 FC1 incarnation. It's tough but ultimately, I think any solo BBEG loses to the party for one inescapable reason - the party outactions it 6:1 (or in this case, just 3:1).

So any time your party can successfully get extra actions and / or deny demogorgon the use of its actions, and sustain this advantage over a period of time, victory should be yours. Slowly but inexorably. That is why battlefield control is so much sought-after and highly rated. :smallsmile:
Demogorgon calls on Dagon, Zuggtomy, Belcheresk, and Illsiadhur. Robbing the party of any action advantages. He doesn't have such a high intelligence and charisma score for nothing.

[Volkov]

Does he carry this gigantic army around with him 24/7 wherever he goes? I'm sure the original scenario was to attack Demogorgon, not be attacked by him. If Big D is only dangerous because of this omgwtfbbq army of doom that you've put forth, then it's trivial for a 20th level party to ambush him, he's not known for any sort of oracular powers. It'll just be him and his closest allies versus the group, and the OP specifically mentioned that most of his traditional friends can either be turned against him or convinced to sit it out.

I don't think you can convince Dagon, Illsiadhur, or Belcheresk to turn on him. Not so sure on Zuggtomy. Dagon is definitely going to side with Demogorgon to the end though, as it was Dagon who helped Demogorgon rise to power, I don't think he'd let go of such an investment while he still lives.

[The Glyphstone]

How do Dagon, Illsiadhur, and Belcheresk match up against Orcus, Grazz't, and Igglwilv? They're the three demon lords explicitly called out as backing you.

[Runestar]

Demogorgon calls on Dagon, Zuggtomy, Belcheresk, and Illsiadhur. Robbing the party of any action advantages. He doesn't have such a high intelligence and charisma score for nothing.

Demogorgon doesn't really have any abilities which let him summon other demon lords. I am talking about taking on the FC1 version as written. Even the module flat-out assumes you are facing him alone.

Plus, demons are chaotic....:smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

Iggwilv is human, Grazz't is specified in the previous adventure as not present (unless you're using a homebrew variant of Savage Tide)

The upgraded CR 33 Dungeon version has the ability to summon up to 30 HD of demons per day These may not be demon lords.

The Dragon Demonomicon version is similar in stats, but the value given is 90 HD- maybe in Savage Tide, when you encounter him, he's already summoned 2/3 of the demons he wants to summon for the day?

[arguskos]

How do Dagon, Illsiadhur, and Belcheresk match up against Orcus, Grazz't, and Igglwilv? They're the three demon lords explicitly called out as backing you.
Not a contest really. Orcus and Grazz't are the two prime Demon Princes other than Demogorgon himself. Iggwilv is... honestly kinda irrelevant in this circumstance. Much as I love 'er, she doesn't have the raw power to stand in this crowd. I mean, she had to research a unique Epic spell to bind Grazz't, and it wasn't even a guarantee. :smalltongue:

Now, Dagon is one of the mightiest of the Obryith lords left, right up there with Obox-ob. If he was directly involved, he and Demo would probably be able to take Orcus and Iggy, given that Grazz't simply withdraws and wanders off to go be awesome elsewhere. Belcheresk is... well, he's nice to have around, but he's not gonna stand up to Orcus directly for more than a few moments probably.

Of course, this is some hard speculation, given that the likelihood of Dagon showing up is... well, small honestly. He has so many plots rolling at once, he has better things to do than save Demogorgon if he's in over his heads.

[hamishspence]

Depends on how close the Savage Tide campaign being used is, to the Dungeon magazine version.

In that version, Dagon is lurking somewhere near, not to aid Demogorgon if he's attacked, but to seize his "Prince of Demons" rank if he is slain- a whole bunch of the major characters, if they survive to that point, all make level checks to "grab the throne"

This can include the players.

[FishAreWet]

This can include the players.

AHAHAHA omg that's awesome

[Volkov]

Don't forget, Obox-Ob also wants dibs on his former title. Obox-ob vs Dagon vs Orcus vs Grazzt would be an awesome fight to watch.

[MandibleBones]

Don't forget, Obox-Ob also wants dibs on his former title. Obox-ob vs Dagon vs Orcus vs Grazzt would be an awesome fight to watch.

As I've said previously, Orcus shouldn't even count there. I mean, he's not a pushover when he's wielding The Last Word, but it would suck for him to be disarmed... which is the first thing Grazz't would do before withdrawing from the contest and making popcorn to watch.

[hamishspence]

Dungeon's updated version of Orcus (in the issue before the last printed one) retains a slightly weaker version of the old Last Word power.

One of the early free online Dragon magazines, has the updated 3.5 stats for Grazz't.

Hmm- how would they stack up against each other?

[Mordokai]

Don't forget, Obox-Ob also wants dibs on his former title. Obox-ob vs Dagon vs Orcus vs Grazzt would be an awesome fight to watch.

Obox-Ob can be brought to your side to help you as well. Well, more specifically, one of his aspects can do that. If you release it to the Lemoriax, just the sight of it weakens Demogorgon down on CR for two full points.

Not sure if he makes a grab for the throne at end though. Among others are Dagon, Orcus, the remaining clones of Demogorgon, Malchanchet, players... but I honestly can't remember Obox-Ob being one of them.

[Volkov]

Obox-Ob can be brought to your side to help you as well. Well, more specifically, one of his aspects can do that. If you release it to the Lemoriax, just the sight of it weakens Demogorgon down on CR for two full points.

Not sure if he makes a grab for the throne at end though. Among others are Dagon, Orcus, the remaining clones of Demogorgon, Malchanchet, players... but I honestly can't remember Obox-Ob being one of them.

Obox-ob was the first prince of demons, his true form, which would kill Demogorgon with ease, was slain by the queen of chaos so that she could replace him with Miska the wolf spider, after he was beaten by the wind dukes of Aqaa and the Obyriths fell, Demogorgon took the title for himself what we see now is actually an aspect, an aspect which is as mighty as Dagon himself. He was the closest to upsurping Demogorgon, he was about to consume an entire planet to boost his power back to his former levels, but a band of adventurers stopped his cult at the last second. But he has other planets getting close to that goal.

[SoC175]

If all else fails, Demogorgon has a crap ton of artifacts lying around to blast your party with. Also, if threatened, he can simply retreat to the City in his layer, which has tens of thousands of demons at the very least.
Unfortunately the city is currently under siege by two legions send by Orcus. However Demogorgon's retreat into Abyssm is a possibility, but if he does, he's likely to lose his mcguffin to the party so it's a success anyway.

He's probably stronger.
BTW, Dagon in his true form is CR 30, thus below CR 32 Orcus even if both aspect's are equal (CR 22 each)

Demogorgon calls on Dagon, Zuggtomy, Belcheresk, and Illsiadhur. Dagon just watches, Zuggtmoy doesn't come, Belcheresk is busy commanding Demogorgon's fleet vs. Charon's fleet (as are basically all of his other high-ups, since the plane is under invasion from both demon armies and celestial armies).

The Dragon Demonomicon version is similar in stats, but the value given is 90 HD- maybe in Savage Tide, when you encounter him, he's already summoned 2/3 of the demons he wants to summon for the day?
Well, he just had a one vs. duell against Orcus and then went straight to defend his capital from Orcu's legions when he noticed the PCs approaching his mcguffin and he teleports straight to them

Not a contest really. Orcus and Grazz't are the two prime Demon Princes other than Demogorgon himself. Iggwilv is... honestly kinda irrelevant in this circumstance. Much as I love 'er, she doesn't have the raw power to stand in this crowd. Strange as it is: She does. I would even go so far to place her on top. Demorgogon may be CR 33 and Orcus CR 32, but they all have monster-builds. Iggliv however has a PC-build and a very strong one (Wizard26/Archmage4 and she actually has epic spellcasting and and also Improved Spell Capacity (x2)).

Obox-ob was the first prince of demons, his true form, which would kill Demogorgon with ease, He may or may not be able to kill Demogorgon, in either case it wouldn't be easy for either of them. The Tanar'ri princes have matured and grown in power since the days of old. Today the rival the power that the Obyriths wielded at their own height (e.g. Orcus, Grazzt and Demogorgon now outstrip Dagon in personal power).

Actually Mishka was able to rival most Obyrith lords in power even back when the Obyrith still ruled (thus preventing the uncontrolled rise of Tanar'Ri lords would have been a priority task for the Obyriths if not the Queen's actions had occured)

what we see now is actually an aspect, an aspect which is as mighty as Dagon himself. He was the closest to upsurping Demogorgon, he was about to consume an entire planet to boost his power back to his former levels, but a band of adventurers stopped his cult at the last second. But he has other planets getting close to that goal.
Actually all "demonlords" in FC1 are supposed to be mere aspects (per designer's word on Enworld), it just wasn't said as clearly as it was supposed to be said in FC1.

The full powered versions of some of them appeared in subsequent issues of Dragon Magazine and Dungeon Magazine. While full-powered Obox-Ob was unfortunately not among them (what a kick-ass article that would have been), the last of the articles was pretty clear that only the reign Prince of Demons should be CR 33 and all other demons (whether they're Tanar'Ri, Obyrith, Loumara or whatever else lurks in the Abyss) should only go up to CR 32.