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ApatheticDespot
2010-02-02, 04:57 PM
I'm planning a major adventure for my players to deal with as a major turning point in the campaign, and I need feedback on an idea I'm toying with. The party is going to have to seek something out in the catacombs under a ruined city, and naturally to get there they must fight their way through the city itself. This being such an important adventure I need a suitably significant enemy to control the ruins: I need a Dragon.

I was reading through the Draconomicon to choose the kind of Dragon, and the one that caught my eye was the Rust Dragon. It fits the draconic archetype while being different enough from the standard colour coding to be unique and memorable, to say nothing of how well it fits the theme of a ruined and decaying city. The problem is that its breath weapon and bite attack both cause metal items to rust instantly, like a rust monster writ large. Dropping one on an unsuspecting party would be, as far as I'm concerned, one of the biggest **** moves in D&D. Naturally I'm going to give the party lots of warning and time to prepare and find alternate, nonmetal equipment, but that still leaves the party under some nasty disadvantages.

My question for my fellow DMs is two fold: Do you think this would still be a bad idea prep, time or not, and what if anything should be effective in protecting metal items from being destroyed?

Flickerdart
2010-02-02, 05:01 PM
A Rust Dragon's hoard is likely to contain items impervious to rusting, items that a canny sneak can pilfer before the battle begins. Give them some hints, and if they don't send scouts, then it's their own fault for being rash against a boss.

pffh
2010-02-02, 05:01 PM
You can always give it a big ass hoard (with some blatant upgrades for part the rusted stuff) so the players can replace the lost gear.

What I would do with it is write down all the metal gear and it's price next to it (or an upgraded version of it next to it (nothing much just say a +1 upgrade or something). Then I would simply add the worth of the lost items*11.237% (rounded down, weird number so the players don't figure out what you did) in gems to the hoard you planned.

arguskos
2010-02-02, 05:01 PM
...does it have to be a RUST dragon? I mean, there's hordes of dragons you can choose from. The Dragon Compendium has the Orange, Purple, and Yellow Dragons, if you want another chromatic that is still a twist and unknown to your players.

Personally, I don't mind Rust Dragons, but your players almost certainly will if they feel you weren't clear enough (and anything short of "there is a Rust Dragon; it will eat your metal, take precautions" will not be clear enough for someone).

If you fear, even a little, that your players will be angry, then use a different dragon, such as the Orange or something.

Person_Man
2010-02-02, 05:02 PM
I used one in a one-shot campaign. It was an awesome encounter. However, I would never use one in a non-one shot campaign unless everyone was playing a non-caster build, and the Rust Dragon was protecting a huge hoard of treasure. Destroying everyone's stuff just isn't fun.

arguskos
2010-02-02, 05:04 PM
I used one in a one-shot campaign. It was an awesome encounter. However, I would never use one in a non-one shot campaign unless everyone was playing a non-caster build, and the Rust Dragon was protecting a huge hoard of treasure. Destroying everyone's stuff just isn't fun.
...why all NON-casters? Wouldn't a group of all casters have a much better time against the Rust Dragon? :smallconfused:

MickJay
2010-02-02, 05:04 PM
Make your party stumble on a relatively fresh corpse, clad in completely rusted armour (leather straps, tunic etc are still good). This should be a sufficient hint...

Flickerdart
2010-02-02, 05:04 PM
I used one in a one-shot campaign. It was an awesome encounter. However, I would never use one in a non-one shot campaign unless everyone was playing a non-caster build, and the Rust Dragon was protecting a huge hoard of treasure. Destroying everyone's stuff just isn't fun.
Or if everyone were playing VoP characters. The Dragon breathes rust at them for a while, gets tired and leaves.

Volkov
2010-02-02, 05:50 PM
Every fighter has nightmares of Rust Dragons. So your party fighter is probably going to sulk in a corner sucking his thumb. As will anyone else who relies heavily on metal. Also, when they are entering it's layer, show that more or less all the metal is heavily rusted, and fresh, if acid drenched corpses have had all their metal gear rusted away, while everything else on them merely shows acid damage.

The_Pyre
2010-02-02, 06:03 PM
Why not change its breath weapon to deal regular damage? :smallconfused:

Volkov
2010-02-02, 06:04 PM
Why not change its breath weapon to deal regular damage? :smallconfused:

Because if weren't acid, it wouldn't make much sense for it to corrode metal now would it?

Cieyrin
2010-02-02, 06:32 PM
...does it have to be a RUST dragon? I mean, there's hordes of dragons you can choose from. The Dragon Compendium has the Orange, Purple, and Yellow Dragons, if you want another chromatic that is still a twist and unknown to your players.

Personally, I don't mind Rust Dragons, but your players almost certainly will if they feel you weren't clear enough (and anything short of "there is a Rust Dragon; it will eat your metal, take precautions" will not be clear enough for someone).

If you fear, even a little, that your players will be angry, then use a different dragon, such as the Orange or something.

I'd heartily recommend a Purple Dragon, b/c how do you forget a dragon that, for one form of their breath weapon, has essentially a Light Saber attack?

As for old Rusty, it's not like it's the end of the world for meleers to fight a Rust Dragon, as there are quite a couple weapon and armor enhancements, some of which are quite inexpensive, that makes them immune to rust. Everbright, Durable, etc. cover you, so if there's a Party artificer that can buff major items or, if they can get more time to prepare, they can get their personal equipment permanently boosted with 'em, which is a nice boost regardless to have for these situations.

Them's my 2 Durable coppers. Take as you will.

Arcane_Secrets
2010-02-02, 07:54 PM
One option is that perhaps you could have your players find a magical item (perhaps a ring or something similar) that protects them from rust effects. This could be made plausible within the campaign by exploring an abandoned construct-builders laboratory and finding it in the left behind debris as the creator never had the chance to finish whatever they were doing that would have incorporated it.

Alternately, they could find a place where the rust dragon attacked previously, and the item was left behind on the corpse for some reason. The rust dragon managed to kill them despite their having the item (possibly because there weren't enough beings in that party to defeat it then).

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-02-02, 08:14 PM
Personally, I don't mind Rust Dragons, but your players almost certainly will if they feel you weren't clear enough (and anything short of "there is a Rust Dragon; it will eat your metal, take precautions" will not be clear enough for someone).
A good way to give exactly this warning in-game is to let them witness the dragon making a meal of a bunch of metal-clad NPC adventurers in a situation that doesn’t put the PCs at risk. If you are having trouble coming up with a scenario that will prevent the PCs from getting involved with that before they are ready, instead have them meet the survivor of a similar massacre and give them an eyewitness account instead.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-02, 08:20 PM
Ive used a rust dragon exactly once. It's a fun way to get cocky types actually scared.

However, like all sorts of fear inducing things, it shouldn't be used willy nilly. Provide ample warning, so they only have themselves to blame when they heedlessly disregard the many signs. Fresh corpses in rusted armor everywhere is a good start.

If they don't recognize it, make sure to give knowledge checks and so forth to give them ample chance to react properly.

And of course, they are best used extremely rarely. Targetting equipment should be done very seldomly anyhow, and it's easy to cross the line from "oh crap, what is THAT" to "Ok, now the DMs just being a jerk".

ApatheticDespot
2010-02-02, 10:45 PM
One quick clarification, the players won't be going to this city until after having done significant research (to even find out that that's where they need to go will take a few major adventures) and I intend for them to know about the rust dragon and it's abilities potentially weeks in advance of actually meeting it. I view a dragon as being less a monster than a one-being adventuring party only stronger, smarter, richer and with more time to plan; in a straight fight between a dragon and a party the dragon should win. I intend to make fighting a dragon an epic undertaking requiring preparation and planning even without the rust powers so the party is going to have enough time to raid the tomb of a noted psychic warrior for crystal weapons or whatever they come up with. My real concern is that virtually every magical item contains some metal, and while rising against adversity to defeat a challenge with only your withs and resourcefulness is fun, a fighter who's fullplate is hidden in a bag of holding usually isn't a happy fighter.

Serpentine
2010-02-02, 11:14 PM
One option is that perhaps you could have your players find a magical item (perhaps a ring or something similar) that protects them from rust effects. This could be made plausible within the campaign by exploring an abandoned construct-builders laboratory and finding it in the left behind debris as the creator never had the chance to finish whatever they were doing that would have incorporated it.

Alternately, they could find a place where the rust dragon attacked previously, and the item was left behind on the corpse for some reason. The rust dragon managed to kill them despite their having the item (possibly because there weren't enough beings in that party to defeat it then).This could be incorporated into a wider hint of "everything metal is rusted away": come across a whole party of dead adventurers. Every piece of armour and metal on all the corpses is nothing but red dust, except on one body that appears to have met a different death to the others and happens to have a distinct looking [rust-resistant item].

Hawriel
2010-02-02, 11:22 PM
Rust Dragon,,,,I love it!

To protect against the rust effects I would turn to the wizards. You can creat oils and spells that would protect against the rust effect. It wouldnt be permanent. Although If the wizard in the party crafted items he could creat an enchantment. The creation of which could be a side plot to your campaign.

Zaydos
2010-02-02, 11:30 PM
I've used rust dragons twice. The first time was a wyrmling, I forget what happened but it didn't breathe once and well it convinced me never to use the "Double 20s = Death" rule (besides the fact that I got it 3 times against PCs in/almost in a row making them go bug eyes and me nudge dice, it was how they finally killed it too).

The second time they were asking for it. Or to be literal they bought its egg from a goblin. It was saving its breath weapon for when it could catch multiple enemies, but its rusting bite still took out the knight's armor (he bought better armor afterward). It was fun and memorable though (especially since they raised the egg).

Coidzor
2010-02-03, 12:39 AM
<_< Prepare them for it by having some regular rust monsters and then some kind of half-Rust Dragon Rust Monster as a mini-boss earlier in the ruins?

Kyeudo
2010-02-03, 01:13 AM
If you need a quick and dirty solution, throw the melee a bone and have them find a Deep Crystal Sword or a suit of Mundane Crystal Full Plate. Work it into early treasure, make sure they'll think it useful to be wearing by deploying a few Rust Monsters early (like Coidzor suggests), and make sure they see the signs of Big Rusty ahead of time. If they fail to take the hint that they should stow the metal items, its their fault.

Superglucose
2010-02-03, 01:46 AM
A Rust Dragon's hoard is likely to contain items impervious to rusting, items that a canny sneak can pilfer before the battle begins.
Gold and Platinum.

flare'90
2010-02-03, 03:30 AM
Can i suggest this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137185) (only if you are familiar with ToB)?

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-03, 04:40 AM
if you want to completely nuke your PCs equipment, pair the Rust with a Sand Dragon from Sandstorm.

This dragon breaths a magical sandstorm able to destroy all items under a certain hardness.

So, one dragon will nuke the metal equipment, the other one capes, mantles and wands (assuming I assigned correctly hardness).

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

HAHAHA,

Ah.

*Coughs*

Bayar
2010-02-03, 06:07 AM
Dont forget, gold never rusts.

Coidzor
2010-02-03, 06:08 AM
Dont forget, gold never rusts.

That's part of why it's known as a noble metal. :D

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 06:09 AM
Aren't rust monsters (and rust dragons) capable of causing practically any metal to rust, not just iron/steel?

Bayar
2010-02-03, 07:30 AM
Aren't rust monsters (and rust dragons) capable of causing practically any metal to rust, not just iron/steel?

The metal is incapable of rusting. That would be like claiming that Ironwood rusts just because it has Iron in it's name.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 07:33 AM
"Corrode or "crumble"- then- sometimes D&D rules override the laws of chemistry.

A rust dragon lays its antennae on a gold or platinum item, and as I recall, while it may take a little longer, there will still be a messy pile of "broken-down" metal.

Going by this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm

rust monsters will target gold and silver items, it's just they target them last.

Bayar
2010-02-03, 07:39 AM
"Corrode or "crumble"- then- sometimes D&D rules override the laws of chemistry.

A rust dragon lays its antennae on a gold or platinum item, and as I recall, while it may take a little longer, there will still be a messy pile of "broken-down" metal.

Going by this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rustMonster.htm

rust monsters will target gold and silver items, it's just they target them last.

Devour =/= corrode.


The creature is relentless, chasing characters over long distances if they still possess intact metal objects but usually ceasing its attacks to devour a freshly rusted meal.

The creature targets the largest metal object available, striking first at armor, then at shields and smaller items. It prefers ferrous metals (steel or iron) over precious metals (such as gold or silver) but will devour the latter if given the opportunity.

It might eat them, but it does not corrode them.

Starbuck_II
2010-02-03, 07:50 AM
This dragon breaths a magical sandstorm able to destroy all items under a certain hardness.

So, one dragon will nuke the metal equipment, the other one capes, mantles and wands (assuming I assigned correctly hardness).
*Coughs*
Worn/carried objects are protected unless they roll a nat 1. That is just how D&D rolls.

Frozen_Feet
2010-02-03, 07:50 AM
I belong to a school of DMs who absolutely love blowing up stuff, because I like to discourage over-reliance on items. As long as you give them a way to kill the dragon without metal items, your good - seeing that you're planning to give them loads of prep time, you're already doing that.

Just make sure that the risk is worth the cost - whatever the players gain by winning the dragon should outweigh what they lose.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 08:01 AM
If the guy is wearing Gold Armour or Adamantine Armour, what happens to it when the monster "strikes first at armour, then at shields"?

If I recall my PHB correctly, it will still be destroyed by the "rust" effect.

Similarly, if you whack a rust monster with a gold or adamantine or platinum sword, it will corrode, since the rules say "Any metal weapon corrodes, not "any ferrous metal weapon corrodes"

Bayar
2010-02-03, 08:31 AM
If the guy is wearing Gold Armour or Adamantine Armour, what happens to it when the monster "strikes first at armour, then at shields"?

If I recall my PHB correctly, it will still be destroyed by the "rust" effect.

Similarly, if you whack a rust monster with a gold or adamantine or platinum sword, it will corrode, since the rules say "Any metal weapon corrodes, not "any ferrous metal weapon corrodes"

Yeah, looked at Gold as weapon and armor special material in Magic Of Faerun. No anti corrosive property listed so RAW it will rust as any other metal.

I concede this debate (although, as a chemist, I still find it retarded. But so is dunking you head in a bucket of water and healing yourself by drowning so who am I to judge).

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 08:35 AM
I figure its a case of "rust" being a very badly chosen word for what the monster (and the dragon) does, but we're stuck with it.

I'd probably describe the result as:

"Your metal item crumbles into fine powder" whatever the item is, with iron/steel ones adding "which is rust-red"

Thus, the monster or dragon can scoff it up after the fight.

Kaiyanwang
2010-02-03, 08:41 AM
Worn/carried objects are protected unless they roll a nat 1. That is just how D&D rolls.

I probably misinterpreted this:



Originally posted by Sandstorm

Acreature caught in a fl aywind, or any object with hardness less than 5, takes 1d4 points of lethal damage per round instead of the nonlethal damage dealt by a Material Plane sandstorm.


I guess you mean that the text assumes an object not held or worn..

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-02-03, 09:53 AM
My real concern is that virtually every magical item contains some metal, and while rising against adversity to defeat a challenge with only your withs and resourcefulness is fun, a fighter who's fullplate is hidden in a bag of holding usually isn't a happy fighter.
I don’t know if there’s an official spell to do it, but perhaps give them access to some sort of magic (item) that protects against rust effects. To keep the fear of the rust in them, make sure there aren’t enough uses to protect everything— just enough items to keep the encounter from feeling unfair.

And if you have a chance, grant them access to this magic an adventure or two before the dragon comes up. That way it doesn’t feel too contrived. Of course if you can nudge them into actively looking for such a spell/item while they do their research and preparation, that won’t be contrived, either.

Person_Man
2010-02-03, 09:58 AM
...why all NON-casters? Wouldn't a group of all casters have a much better time against the Rust Dragon? :smallconfused:

To be more specific, I should have said I would only use a Rust Dragon against a party of all non-casters OR all casters. Either everyone should be equally nerfed by losing their equipment, or no one should be.

Although now that I think about it, at least the Monk would be useful for an encounter (assuming everyone else in the party was a non-caster).

Choco
2010-02-03, 10:06 AM
Although now that I think about it, at least the Monk would be useful for an encounter (assuming everyone else in the party was a non-caster).

Naw, even with opportunity attacks, a raging unarmed barbarian without the Improved Unarmed Combat feat or armor would still likely be more useful than a monk. Though I guess the monk would be less useless than usual.

Anyway, go ahead and use your Rust Dragon if your players are roleplayers, they should enjoy it. If they are rollplayers on the other hand, you may as well just go "dungeon of the week" from published adventures/dungeon delve and call it good.

Kulture
2010-02-03, 12:19 PM
I actually have fond memories of rust dragons because on a pbp game I was allowed a zombie rust great wyrm as an undead minion from the start of the campaign (level 15) because it was a high power campaign.

I can personally attest to the havoc it can wreak, especially at high levels when their skin disolves metal weapons under a +5 enhancement bonus.

This gets especially bad with zombie ones as they're half normal CR, making the great wyrm (with more HP than bloody KYUSS!) only CR13.

It's not a fight you throw at them lightly.

Kol Korran
2010-02-03, 12:34 PM
i haven't read through the whole thread, so i apologize if i'm repeating something. though a brief skimming suggested i'm not.

Wizards once did a rust monster makeover (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060714a) which kinda changed the basic way the Rust power works- no longer save or suck. instead:


Rust (Su): A rust monster that makes a successful touch attack with its antennae causes the target metal to corrode, warp, and crack. Any metal weapons, armor, and shields carried by a creature struck are weakened by this effect. The bonus to AC provided by an armor or shield drops by 2, to a minimum of 0. Weapons suffer a –2 penalty on attacks and damage, with a maximum penalty of –6. Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save to resist this effect. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.

These penalties last for 10 minutes. A rust monster that spends 5 minutes devouring a metal object (whether magical or mundane) transforms it into rust, destroying it permanently.

A metal weapon that deals damage to a rust monster also suffers this warping and corroding effect. Wooden, stone, and other nonmetallic weapons are unaffected

this could work well for your dragon- it makes the metal items suck, but gradually, and not permenantly (which is importent with players too attached to their shinies).

just thought to suggest this. hope it helps,
Kol.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 12:41 PM
The 4E rust monster in MM2 works a little like this as well- maybe the makeover was prototype for the 4E one.

Kol Korran
2010-02-03, 12:52 PM
the general idea of "lets turn save or suck to several saves/ gradual change instead" started in 3.5 makeovers, along with the medusa and a few others. but i guess you're right- these ideas were taken over into 4E. the game still have save or suck, but fewer, and then you usually have saving throws on following rounds.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 12:59 PM
Yes. I've seen the occasional complaint about the new rust monster- that permanently losing items was the whole point.

It may depend on how the players see it.

Fizban
2010-02-03, 04:19 PM
While making the penalties temporary is nice, it takes all the bite out of the monster since permanently destroying metal is what it does. If you wanted to make it less arbitrary you could use the penaties, and then if not washed off thoroughly within a minute the item is destroyed. It gives the players a chance if they hurry up and finish the fight, but if it goes badly then it goes badly. When in doubt, postpone inevitable death, but make sure it's still deadly.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 04:46 PM
Still capable of destroying them- get it rusting, hit it with their Encounter power (which has the Reliable keyword) and it's destroyed.

However, kill the monster, and you have the item's value in residuum in its stomach.

ericgrau
2010-02-03, 04:55 PM
Giving them warning will drop the effective challenge, so that'll combat the weaker gear. If that's not enough, wait until they're higher level and make it even easier.