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Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 08:01 PM
The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Six points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules. Except that sudden strike counts.

GO!

EDIT: Sudden strike counts, upped points per die to 6.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-02, 08:07 PM
The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Three points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules.

GO!

Does Sudden strike count as sneak attack for your purposes?

Splendor
2010-02-02, 08:07 PM
UA's fighter variant on page 58. Get's sneak attacks instead of bonus feats.
BAB attack of 20, 10d6 sneak attack. That's 40 with out adding any magic items, racial abilities or odd prestige classes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-02, 08:07 PM
There should also be points for being able to bypass SA immunity and being able to apply it in more situations. SA, by itself, is fairly craptastic. Being able to apply SA as a touch or ranged touch attack should also count instead of BAB, because it makes it so much easier to hit with.

Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 08:13 PM
I'll allow Sudden Strike to count. I'm also going to up the points per die, because the Sneak Attack Fighter is a boring winner.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-02, 08:15 PM
half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

UglyPanda
2010-02-02, 08:20 PM
I'm not participating, but I have a few questions since the rules will inevitably be changed:
-What about feats and abilities that improve the amount of sneak attack without increasing dice (Craven, Deadly Precision)?
-Are you counting number of dice pulled off in a full attack action, or the number of dice per attack? In other words, do builds that get more attacks per round get more points?
-What about Iaijutsu focus?
-What about builds that can give themselves more actions (Time stands still, that Factotum ability)?
-Since there are probably temporary buffs and 1/day abilities (Chameleon, Factotum), what is the minimum number of rounds the amount of sneak attack has to be active?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 08:22 PM
If we restrict to Core, we can get Rogue 19/Assassin 1 for 11 Sneak Attack die, and a BAB of 14, for a total of 80 points using your new numbers or 36 using your old. I believe this is the best one can do using core.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-02, 08:23 PM
half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

Do bloodline levels advance sneak attack?

Xey42
2010-02-02, 08:24 PM
rogue 3, wizard 3, unseen seer 2, uncanny trickster 10; assassin 1, sa fighter 1 somewhere in there.. take hunters eye in unseen seer with practiced spellcaster, martial study to get assassins stance. 18 sneak attack dice (2 rogue, 1 unseen seer, 5 trickster, 1 assassin, 1 fighter, 6 hunters eye, 2 assassins stance), 14 bab using fractional (i think)

faceroll
2010-02-02, 08:28 PM
If you pick up Arcane Disciple, have 7 levels of wizard casting and three levels of incantatrix, you can get full BAB with war domain.

Eldariel
2010-02-02, 08:32 PM
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7/Arcane Trickster 8. +8d6 base dice.

Feats:
Extend Spell
Persistent Spell
Martial Study: Cloak of Deception
Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance
Arcane Disciple: War
Metamagic School Focus: Evocation
Practiced Spellcaster

Trait:
Spellgifted: Divination.

Caster Level Boosting:
UMD Beads of Karma +4
Orange Prism Ioun Stone +1
Ring of Arcane Might +1
Robe of Arcane Might +1 Competence
Magical Tattoo +1
Band of Spell Enhancement +2
Adept Spirit +1 Insight
Spell Enhancer +2

This gives you a total of CL 36 for Hunter's Eye. Then you, using normal slots, persist:
Divine Power (with help from Metamagic School Focus)
Hunter's Eye
Sniper's Shot
Guided Shot
Golemstrike/Vinestrike/Gravestrike

No range limit on SAs, able to hit targets with Concealment with SA, etc. Hunter's Eye gives you +1d6 SA per 3 caster levels, so CL 36 means you get +12d6 SA giving you +20d6 SA total. +22d6 with Assassin's Stance. Divine Power means you have full BAB.


Better caster can beat this rather easily (I didn't, for example, use Shapechange into that one creature with inherent ~+7d6 SA nor did I really optimize the Caster Level; Divine does that better as do tricks), but this is a decent baseline. I also didn't bind anything nor did I use soulmelds. All of those add more too.

BAB 20 = 10 points.
SA +22d6 = 132 points.
Total: 142 points.

Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 08:44 PM
I'm not participating, but I have a few questions since the rules will inevitably be changed:
-What about feats and abilities that improve the amount of sneak attack without increasing dice (Craven, Deadly Precision)?
-Are you counting number of dice pulled off in a full attack action, or the number of dice per attack? In other words, do builds that get more attacks per round get more points?
-What about Iaijutsu focus?
-What about builds that can give themselves more actions (Time stands still, that Factotum ability)?
-Since there are probably temporary buffs and 1/day abilities (Chameleon, Factotum), what is the minimum number of rounds the amount of sneak attack has to be active?


Single attack
Score is by dice
I have no idea how Iaijutsu focus works
Extra actions don't help

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-02, 08:48 PM
half a dozen classes that provide SA, and bloodline levels.

Legacy Champion has a better BAB.

Best way to do this? Rogue1/Spellthief1/Sneak Attack Fighter3/Assassin3/Arcane Trickster1/Swordsage2/Nightsong Enforcer1/Ninja1/Unseen Seer1/Avenging Executioner1/Master of Masks1(Assassin Mask)/Spellwarp Sniper2/Invisible Blade1/Binder1 (some bind that gives SA)

So, here's the dice we have:

16d6 Sneak Attack total (using Assassin's Stance from Swordsage, and Assassin's Mask from MoM). Not counting any vestiges which grant additional Sneak Attack dice.

16*6 = 96 points right there. Heck, at 48 points, it beats the straight SA fighter hands down.

Boci
2010-02-02, 08:49 PM
Legacy Champion has a better BAB.

But bloodlines advance all your classes.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-02, 08:50 PM
But bloodlines advance all your classes.

No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-02-02, 08:50 PM
I have no idea how Iaijutsu focus works


Find a flat-footed person.
Draw a melee weapon.
Attack said flat-footed person.
Make an Iaijutsu Focus check (it's a charisma-based skill)
Deal extra d6s of damage based on your check result.


No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

If a character has levels in two or more classes in addition to his bloodline levels, each class gains the benefit of adding the bloodline levels when calculating abilities.

lolwut

Coidzor
2010-02-02, 09:03 PM
So what's the limit on the number of bloodlines one can take? As otherwise that basically just adds 3 SA per source of SA per 3 level bloodline, right?

Mushroom Ninja
2010-02-02, 09:05 PM
A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. It counts as a normal class level (with no class skills) for the purpose of determining maximum skill ranks. Levels of bloodline never result in XP penalties for multiclass characters.

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that bloodlines advance SA at all as it is a class feature.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-02-02, 09:16 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3084.0

i win

Mongoose87
2010-02-02, 09:20 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3084.0

i win

I think you probably do.

d13
2010-02-02, 09:24 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem that bloodlines advance SA at all as it is a class feature.



A bloodline level grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features.

(...)

Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (...)

Is says that it doesn't GRANT class features, but it says that it advances any character abilities based on its level.

JaronK
2010-02-02, 09:32 PM
The challenge: as many Sneak Attack Dice as you can get in 20 levels.

The score: Six points per die.

The bonus: Extra point for every point of BaB over 10.

The Prize: A coveted e-cookie.

The rules: There are no rules. Except that sudden strike counts.

Human Factotum 4/Rogue 16 with two flaws, and 13 Fonts of Inspiration (three as Rogue bonus feats). Normally you have 8d6 sneak attack, but then you use the Factotum 4 ability to get one sneak attack die per inspiration point. Your base is 3 Inspiration points, but 13 Fonts of Inspiration gives you 91 more to a total of 94 Inspiration points. This you convert into 94d6 sneak attack.

Total sneak attack (one round per encounter) is 102d6 per attack.

Note that you could then UMD a wand of Hunters Eye (+1d6 sneak attack for every three caster levels) if someone would make you one of sufficiently high level.

And you're still an incredibly flexible build. Total points by your rules: 617.

Option 2 (The horribly cheesy option): Archivist 19/Sacred Exorcist 1. Use a Consumptive Field loop to boost your caster level as high as you can, then persist Hunter's Eye. Use a Bead of Karma when you start. If you just cast 6 Consumptive Fields and 5 Greater Consumptive Fields (assuming a pretty conservative number here, minimal numbers of bonus spells through stats) and use them on bags of rats, and had a starting caster level of 24 (Bead of Karma), your total caster level becomes 2053 (assuming GCF overlaps with and does not stack with Consumptive Field... if it does the number is much higher). Persist Hunter's Eye at this point and now you have 684d6 sneak attack on every attack, but it lasts all day. Wheee! I'd recommend persisting Divine Power and Giant Size at this point for all kinds of mayhem.

So, I've probably been ninja'd at this point, but hopefully option two beats other entries by an order of magnitude. That would be nice.

Total points by your rules on this guy: 4114 (when persisting Divine Power for full BAB).

JaronK

JaronK
2010-02-02, 09:33 PM
Is says that it doesn't GRANT class features, but it says that it advances any character abilities based on its level.

It was errataed. It doesn't work for sneak attack or animal companions (much to my chagrin, as that errata killed the Ubermount build). Basically, it only works for things that specifically say "X effect based on character level." Rogues don't say they get 1d6 sneak attack/2 character levels, they just have a table entry that specifically says when they get it. And then they specifically nerfed animal companions. See the errata for more details.

JaronK

SurlySeraph
2010-02-02, 09:46 PM
Human Rogue 2/ Spellthief 1/ Ninja 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 5/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/ Ronin 1/ Zhentarim Spy 1/ Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Master of Masks 1/Archivist 4

Take the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye.

Feats: Craven, Deceitful, Persuasive, Improved Initiative, EWP (Bastard Sword), Daring Outlaw, Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

Equipment: Bracers of the Hunter (+1d6), Mantle of the Predator (+1d6), Rogue's Vest (+1d6), Deadly Precision Assassination weapon (+3d6), Wand of Critical Strike (+1d6), Ankh of Ascension (+4 caster level), Bead of Karma (+4 caster level)

Cast Hunter's Eye (CL 12) for +4d6 SA

This ends up with 26d6+20 SA and I think 11 BAB (would be a lot more if fractional BAB was allowed, of course). This is about the most you can do without massive Font of Inspiration, Polymorph, CL-boosting via Consumptive Field, and the various other tricks you see above that make 26d6 look like peanuts, though if anyone has more classes that give you +1d6 SA at first level please do mention them.

JaronK
2010-02-02, 09:55 PM
Wait, I can improve that Archivist a lot. Take a level of Tainted Sorcerer (UA) and in fact you might as well go Binder 1/Archivist 3/Anima Mage 10/Tenebrous Apostate 5/Tainted Sorcerer 1 so you can have endless all day metamagics and full binding. Get your Wisdom up to a base of 30 (shouldn't be too hard by level 20). Let your taint score get to 59 (you can regulate it by casting Restoration and the like to keep from going crazy) and we'll assume you have an Orange Ioun Stone to make up the caster level difference. You now have bonus spells as though your casting stat were 69. IIRC that gives you 7 bonus 4th level spells and 6 bonus 7th level spells, so now you can Consumptive Field 12 more times compared to that first entry.

Your caster level is now around 266369, giving 88789d6 sneak attack per attack. Persist as many spells as you want (as long as you're binding Naberius). Even the last consumptive field lasts 18 days due to the incredible caster level, so many things don't even need to be persisted (you might as well extend them though). Of course, you need an insane number of rats to make this work. But still, you can have Shapechange, Girallion's Blessing, Divine Power, Giant Size, and a host of other insane buffs up too.

So... that ought to win by a few orders of magnitude. 532744 points, by the way.

JaronK

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-02, 10:01 PM
Just don't forget to make it an outsider for Polymorph: Kelvezu to get another +8d6 sneak attack.

Boci
2010-02-02, 10:15 PM
No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

By common sense yes, but not by RAW.

JaronK
2010-02-02, 11:01 PM
No, it advances *ONE* of your classes. Try again.

They explicitly advance all of your classes... but they don't advance sneak attack, so it's irrelevant.

JaronK

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 12:36 AM
They explicitly advance all of your classes... but they don't advance sneak attack, so it's irrelevant.

JaronK
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Include the character's bloodline level when calculating any character ability based on his class levels (such as caster level for spellcasting characters, or save DCs for characters with special abilities whose DCs are based on class level). The character doesn't gain any abilities, spells known, or spells per day from the addition of his bloodline levels, though—only the calculations of his level-based abilities are affected. You appear to be in error.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 12:43 AM
Please see the errata on the subject. It's the errata that does this. Quoting pre-errata material hardly helps. They specifically mention Druid Animal Companions and Sneak Attack.

Not that it matters too much, because Bloodlines won't get anywhere NEAR what Factotums or Hunter's Eye can do.

JaronK

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 12:49 AM
Please see the errata on the subject. It's the errata that does this. Quoting pre-errata material hardly helps. They specifically mention Druid Animal Companions and Sneak Attack.
JaronKNo errata listed for UA on the Wizard's site. Link?

JaronK
2010-02-03, 12:57 AM
No errata listed for UA on the Wizard's site. Link?

You know, I looked too, and couldn't find it now. It's definitely there somewhere though, because I remember how miffed I was about the Animal Companion thing (I really liked the Ubermount build!). Where it's gone, I don't know.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it might be the main 3.5 FAQ here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

I can't expand it for some reason though.

JaronK

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 01:11 AM
You know, I looked too, and couldn't find it now. It's definitely there somewhere though, because I remember how miffed I was about the Animal Companion thing (I really liked the Ubermount build!). Where it's gone, I don't know.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it might be the main 3.5 FAQ here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a

I can't expand it for some reason though.

JaronKSee my sig. :smallwink: This is the reason for it.
What class features do my character’s bloodline levels
(from UA) stack with? Do they stack with only one class or
with all my classes? Do they stack with other class levels for
the purpose of meeting prerequisites?
Your bloodline levels stack with your normal class levels
“when calculating any character ability based on . . . class
levels” (UA 19). The key word here is “calculate”—it means
when you use the level as part of some mathematical
determination of the class feature’s power or uses. Abilities that
say “add your class level” count, but abilities that say “a
character of level X gains this effect” don’t.
Examples from the PH where bloodline levels would stack
with normal class levels include the bard’s bardic knowledge
and uses of bardic music per day; the cleric and paladin’s
effective turning level; the druid and ranger’s wild empathy;
the druid’s HD limit for wild shape; the monk’s wholeness of
body, abundant step, diamond soul, quivering palm, and empty
body; the paladin’s smite evil and lay on hands; and perhaps
most importantly, caster level.
Many class features improve as you gain levels but aren’t
specifically calculated with class level. A rogue’s sneak attack,
for example, improves at a fixed rate, but it doesn’t specifically
use your class level to calculate its value in the way that the
abilities listed above do. The same is true of a monk’s unarmed
damage, AC bonus, and unarmored speed bonus, of a
barbarian’s number of rages per day, and so on. Similarly, it
doesn’t add to the power of your animal companion, familiar,
or special mount.
Your bloodline levels never actually grant you new class
features. A 2nd-level bard with one bloodline level doesn’t gain
inspire competence (although he can use his bardic music three
times per day).
Your bloodline levels stack with all of your class levels for
this purpose. A 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level druid with one
bloodline level has a caster level of 3rd for both classes, turns
undead as a 3rd-level cleric, and adds +3 (plus his Charisma
modifier) to wild empathy checks just as a 3rd-level druid.
Bloodline levels don’t stack with class levels for the
purpose of meeting prerequisites (such as the minimum fighter
level for selecting Weapon Specialization).Spoiler contains the FAQ you were talking about. Bold sections are outright lies by whatever idiot wrote it. IMHO, of course.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 01:19 AM
See my sig. :smallwink: This is the reason for it. Spoiler contains the FAQ you were talking about. Bold sections are outright lies by whatever idiot wrote it. IMHO, of course.

Something is not wrong simply because it inconveniences you

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 01:23 AM
Something is not wrong simply because it inconveniences you
Your bloodline levels stack with your normal class levels “when calculating any character ability based on . . . class
levels”...A rogue’s sneak attack for example, improves at a fixed rate, but it doesn’t specifically use your class level to calculate its value in the way that the abilities listed above do.
This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter.How is that not "calculated based on Rogue level"?

JaronK
2010-02-03, 02:45 AM
I believe the logic here is that the Rogue ability is descriptive, not proscriptive. In other words, it's in the table, and it's just telling you "here's how it advances." This is different from, for example, the Binder's Effective Binder Level, which is strictly guided by your class level.

This is made wierder by the Animal Companion bit, where it specifically says it's based on Druid level.

Basically as far as I can tell any ability that says "your X is based on class level" should work with Bloodlines, and any ability that's in the table won't do so. Rogues get 1d6 sneak attack at level 1 and this increases as per the table once per two Rogue levels, but it never specifically says "your sneak attack is X based on class level." It's just that Rogues happen to get sneak attack at every odd level as per their table, and the text describes this behavior. If Bloodlines did work for sneak attack, you could have a 5th level Rogue not gaining 1d6 sneak attack because he'd taken a bloodline level, thus making the table wrong... so that's what the FAQ is trying to prevent. So it works great for things like Initiator Level and Effective Binder Level and Caster Level and the save DCs of a Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura, but not sneak attack and Fighter Feats and the like.

Does that make sense? I'm not totally sure it does. But the FAQ is there whether we like it or not, and it gives rules which are written down. It is thus RAW, even if FAQs in general should not change RAW from a general design point of view. And Sneak Attack is specifically not allowed to advance via Bloodlines... there's no confusing the FAQ's meaning there.

JaronK

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 03:00 AM
I believe the logic here is that the Rogue ability is descriptive, not proscriptive. In other words, it's in the table, and it's just telling you "here's how it advances." This is different from, for example, the Binder's Effective Binder Level, which is strictly guided by your class level.

This is made wierder by the Animal Companion bit, where it specifically says it's based on Druid level.

Basically as far as I can tell any ability that says "your X is based on class level" should work with Bloodlines, and any ability that's in the table won't do so. Rogues get 1d6 sneak attack at level 1 and this increases as per the table once per two Rogue levels, but it never specifically says "your sneak attack is X based on class level." It's just that Rogues happen to get sneak attack at every odd level as per their table, and the text describes this behavior. If Bloodlines did work for sneak attack, you could have a 5th level Rogue not gaining 1d6 sneak attack because he'd taken a bloodline level, thus making the table wrong... so that's what the FAQ is trying to prevent. So it works great for things like Initiator Level and Effective Binder Level and Caster Level and the save DCs of a Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura, but not sneak attack and Fighter Feats and the like.Except the FAQ says that Bloodlines advance Smite Evil, which does both. -_-

JaronK
2010-02-03, 06:02 AM
Except the FAQ says that Bloodlines advance Smite Evil, which does both. -_-

Smite Evil's bonus to damage is "one point per paladin level." That's what it's talking about. Using the FAQ logic, you would not get additional uses per day, but you would get the increased damage. It actually is internally consistant.

JaronK

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-03, 01:03 PM
Human Rogue 2/ Spellthief 1/ Ninja 1/ Sneak Attack Fighter 1/ Swashbuckler 5/ Assassin 1/ Nightsong Enforcer 1/ Ronin 1/ Zhentarim Spy 1/ Shadow Thief of Amn 1/Master of Masks 1/Archivist 4

Take the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye.

Feats: Craven, Deceitful, Persuasive, Improved Initiative, EWP (Bastard Sword), Daring Outlaw, Martial Study (any Shadow Hand maneuver), Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance)

Equipment: Bracers of the Hunter (+1d6), Mantle of the Predator (+1d6), Rogue's Vest (+1d6), Deadly Precision Assassination weapon (+3d6), Wand of Critical Strike (+1d6), Ankh of Ascension (+4 caster level), Bead of Karma (+4 caster level)

Cast Hunter's Eye (CL 12) for +4d6 SA

This ends up with 26d6+20 SA and I think 11 BAB (would be a lot more if fractional BAB was allowed, of course). This is about the most you can do without massive Font of Inspiration, Polymorph, CL-boosting via Consumptive Field, and the various other tricks you see above that make 26d6 look like peanuts, though if anyone has more classes that give you +1d6 SA at first level please do mention them.

Just as a play off yours:
Spellthief 1/ninja 1/rogue2/sa fighter 1/wizard1/Unseen seer 4/assasin 1/
nightsong enforcer1/ ronin 1/ zhentarim spy 1 /Mole 1(dragon)/shadow theif of amn 1/
master of mask 1/SS 1/psyonic rogue 1/psyonic assasin 1

Take the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye.(unseen seer)

Feats: Deceitful, Persuasive, Improved Initiative, EWP (Bastard Sword),
master spell theif,practice spell caster


Equipment: Bracers of the Hunter (+1d6),
Mantle of the Predator (+1d6), Rogue's Vest (+1d6),
Deadly Precision Assassination weapon (+3d6),
Ankh of Ascension (+4 caster level), Bead of Karma (+4 caster level)

Cast Hunter's Eye (CL 19) for +4d6 SA

So thats 29d6 sneack attack... no idea about the bab...
though Honestly if i where to optimise this a bit more i would drop 1d6 sneak attack
(mole)
Shift the rogue 2 to rogue 1 and make ninja 2
Grabing a level of barbarian and make the race half delkyr or the psionic aberation one...

Combat would go...
round 1 alterself into a grell(i think)
round 2 swift action invis(ninja) charge at closest baddy...
pounce for all 10 tenticles which will get SA...
thats 280 SA if all the attacks hit.


Don't know if that counts.

Mongoose87
2010-02-03, 01:06 PM
Don't know if that counts.

Sorry, it's per attack.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-02-03, 01:14 PM
Sorry, it's per attack.

Thats fine I still have 29 even with out the alter self.

Akal Saris
2010-02-03, 03:07 PM
If this post reinforces anything for me, it's that persistent/quickened Hunter's Eye is an incredible spell once you get a solid CL.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:15 PM
In all fairness, the CLs I was using via Consumptive Field loops were far above "solid." And that character's strength was increased by 2 for each point of cast level gained due to CF, so the sneak attack didn't even matter at that point... his strength was over a half a million.

But yes, Hunter's Eye is a solid uncapped spell, and casters can still do everything better.

JaronK

Douglas
2010-02-03, 03:46 PM
In all fairness, the CLs I was using via Consumptive Field loops were far above "solid." And that character's strength was increased by 2 for each point of cast level gained due to CF, so the sneak attack didn't even matter at that point... his strength was over a half a million.
Unless you have some way of getting around the cap on the bonus of half your pre-bonus caster level, the fact that it doesn't stack means it tops out at 1 short of doubling caster level.

Caster level 20 base.
Consumptive Field 1: +10 bonus, 30 total.
Consumptive Field 2: +15 bonus, doesn't stack with first, 35 total.
Consumptive Field 3: +17 bonus, 37 total.
Consumptive Field 4: +18 bonus, 38 total.
Consumptive Field 5: +19 bonus, 39 total.
Consumptive Field 6 and all subsequent: +19 bonus, 39 total.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:54 PM
Here's how it works. Every time you cast the spell, it doesn't stack, but it has a limit of 50% higher than your caster level at the time you cast it.

So if I have a CL of 24, and I cast Consumptive Field, then my max is now 36 (24+12). If I cast Consumptive Field again, my max is now 50% higher than 36, or 54 (36+18), though note that I need 30 dead rats on my second casting to get that high (because it overwrites and does not stack with the first casting). If I cast Consumptive Field again, my caster level is 54 so my maximum is now (54+27) 81, requiring the death of 57 rats on this casting.

This continues up very rapidly.

I'm not sure what exactly you're doing with your math there. It looks like you're assuming the increases is capped by half the difference, but it's not... it's capped by half the starting caster level. What I'm doing is a standard Consumptive Field loop, and applying it to an uncapped spell (Hunter's Eye). That's all, really.

JaronK

Douglas
2010-02-03, 04:08 PM
Here's how it works. Every time you cast the spell, it doesn't stack, but it has a limit of 50% higher than your caster level at the time you cast it.
No, that's not how it works. It does not have a cap of final caster level = 1.5 * previous, it has a cap of bonus = .5 * previous caster level.


So if I have a CL of 24, and I cast Consumptive Field, then my max is now 36 (24+12).
Correct.


If I cast Consumptive Field again, my max is now 50% higher than 36, or 54 (36+18)
No, it is not. Your maximum bonus is 18. This is added to your non-boosted caster level of 24 because the same spell does not stack with itself, giving you 24+18 = 42 caster level.


I'm not sure what exactly you're doing with your math there. It looks like you're assuming the increases is capped by half the difference, but it's not... it's capped by half the starting caster level.
The increase is capped by half the starting caster level, yes, but it is applied to the non-boosted caster level because multiples of the same spell do not stack.


What I'm doing is a standard Consumptive Field loop, and applying it to an uncapped spell (Hunter's Eye). That's all, really.
What you're doing is a standard confusion of the stacking rules and their interaction with Consumptive Field. This is far from the first time I've seen this exact mistake.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 04:20 PM
Holy crap you're right. Huh, I guess I hadn't looked at that spell in too long.

Well, that means the Archivist entry would top out at a caster level of 47 (starting at 24) as written yielding an obviously much lower sneak attack value. Huh. Not sure how to get it really high again... I'd need some other method of getting an insane caster level, and I can't think of any offhand. If Greater Consumptive Field stacks with the lesser kind, you could get to 93, which still yields 31d6, but that's just not as impressive.

So I guess the Factotum entry's going to have to be the best then. That one I'm sure works. It could be improved by being an Elf and having someone use the Dark Chaos Shuffle on you, but that's about it.

JaronK

olentu
2010-02-03, 04:26 PM
Holy crap you're right. Huh, I guess I hadn't looked at that spell in too long.

Well, that means the Archivist entry would top out at a caster level of 47 (starting at 24) as written yielding an obviously much lower sneak attack value. Huh. Not sure how to get it really high again... I'd need some other method of getting an insane caster level, and I can't think of any offhand. If Greater Consumptive Field stacks with the lesser kind, you could get to 93, which still yields 31d6, but that's just not as impressive.

So I guess the Factotum entry's going to have to be the best then. That one I'm sure works. It could be improved by being an Elf and having someone use the Dark Chaos Shuffle on you, but that's about it.

JaronK

Circle magic perhaps.

sofawall
2010-02-03, 04:26 PM
At that point though, the amount of int you need to get the next Font of Inspiration starts to become a very real factor.

EDT: Silly ninjas, getting in my way, obscuring my target.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 05:09 PM
True enough. An Int of 30 is pretty reasonable at level 20, so getting 13 or so Fonts is pushing it but doable. The Dark Chaos Shuffle would set your number of Fonts incredibly high, making it much more of an issue. But you could probably cheese out in some way to make it work.

JaronK