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View Full Version : Suggestions for a Necromancer build?



ZombieGenesis
2010-02-02, 08:56 PM
Since I've never made a Necromancer build before I was curious if anyone on the forums had any suggestions. Books, classes, feats, anything really that could give me a good foundation to work with.
Up until now I've been using just basic materials so I think it about time I try experimenting.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-02, 09:08 PM
Obligatory Link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0)

Also it depends on which kind of necromancer you want to play, it is basically divided in:

Master of undeads: Hordes and hordes of undead minions to do the work for you. Cleric or Dread Necro

Master of Negative Energy: Wizard with a fetish for negative energy spells, basically enervation and/or evocation spells modified with uttercold metamagic.

Mesh: Can have hundreds of minions or impose negative levels like there is no tomorrow, Dread necro.

Either way the hand book has much more better suggestions for it.

And now I'll ninja or be ninja'ed

Splendor
2010-02-02, 09:09 PM
Cleric most likely as base class.
Horned Harbinger as prestige (faith and pantheons page 197) this allows just tons of undead minions.
All the libris mortis corpse crafting feats.
Necromatic Presence, Necromatic Might.
Undead Leadership feat, get a vampire.
Maybe Wormbound feat DR343 pg 76.

Oh and if you do decide to become a undead and don't want the LA of most undead, look at the Necropolitan template in the Libris Mortis pg 115.

Edit found Horned harbringer class online http://www.angelfire.com/d20/vaelos/Horned_Harbinger.html

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 09:12 PM
Since I've never made a Necromancer build before I was curious if anyone on the forums had any suggestions. Books, classes, feats, anything really that could give me a good foundation to work with.
Up until now I've been using just basic materials so I think it about time I try experimenting.

What type of necromancer do you want to be?

If you want to focus on raising undead then a straight cleric is your best bet.

If you want to be more of the "I can raise dead and also suck your life out of you" then a necromancy specialized wizard is generally better.

The Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror class is fun. Unfortunately, they don't get Animate Dead until 8th level. Some DM's will bump the spell level for Animate Dead down to a third level spell for them to put them on par with clerics. See if your DM will do this.

A straight 20 Dread Necromancer is very effective. DN 15/Archmage 5 is another simple build. If you are trying to optimize the DN then it makes more sense to PRC out at level 9 since 10 is not impressive and 9 is close to a dead level (any DN should take Tomb-Tainted Soul at level 1, making the level 9 effect almost useless). If you want to insanely optimize your Dread Necromancer, you can use the DN Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook). The Revised Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook) which is of more general interest for optimizing necromancers is also worth a look.

If you are willing to allow homebrew or the like, you may want to look at Katarl's variant Corpsecrafting rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59582) and the Ashen Necromancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72954) which is a base class for making really powerful undead (warning, combining these systems could be bad). Another good thing to look at which has a mix of both homebrew and official material is the Complete Lich (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29570).

Third party books to consider: I've heard good things about Hollowfaust but have never taken a look myself. Don't use Secret College of Necromancy, a third party book by Green Ronin. While it has some good ideas and a handful of nice spells, its base Necromancer class is ridiculously overpowered and many of the spells don't have enough stat to figure out how they would actually work.

industrious
2010-02-02, 09:13 PM
Dread Necromancer 20 from Heroes of Horror. Or Dread Necromancer 10/Walker in the Waste(From Sandstorm) 10.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-02-02, 10:45 PM
Tack on the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis (no LA!) to Dread Necromancer for super happy fun times.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-02, 10:49 PM
You're probably better off with just Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis) than Necropolitan for a Dread Necromancer. Losing your constitution score hurts, and being subject to all the weaknesses of other undead hurts even more. There are few things more annoying than ending up turned.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 10:50 PM
Tack on the Necropolitan template from Libris Mortis (no LA!) to Dread Necromancer for super happy fun times.

This doesn't work so well if you go up to level 20 as a straight DN since you get the LA from that and a lot of the abilities of being a lich then don't stack. If you do this, you need someone at level 19 to kill you, burn your body, and then true resurrect you without the Necropolitan template so you can then take the 20th level as a lich without the LA. This is very cheesy.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-02, 11:04 PM
Actually, Necropolitan doesn't have any LA. It has a one-time XP cost.

And generally, it's better to PrC out of Dread Necromancer long before level 20.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-02, 11:09 PM
Actually, Necropolitan doesn't have any LA. It has a one-time XP cost.

And generally, it's better to PrC out of Dread Necromancer long before level 20.

Maybe but I believe it is a sturdy class that can be taken to 20 without too much trouble, besides in my book becoming the best undead ever is simply awesome

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 11:11 PM
Actually, Necropolitan doesn't have any LA. It has a one-time XP cost.


Er, yes. Not sure why I thought it did. I must be confusing it with something else. Looking at the DN handbook (which I linked to earlier) they note that you need a True Resurrection to gain the Lich template from Necropolitan which may be what I was thinking of. But that's a very RAWish reading. I suspect that most DM's would simply allow the switch over.



And generally, it's better to PrC out of Dread Necromancer long before level 20.

Yeah, I know, I in fact mentioned that above. But some people like to go for complete classes with less PrCing. But really, I'm not aware of any optimized DN that has more than 8 levels of DN.

tyckspoon
2010-02-02, 11:15 PM
Maybe but I believe it is a sturdy class that can be taken to 20 without too much trouble, besides in my book becoming the best undead ever is simply awesome

It is, but if your situation is be Undead *now* with Necropolitan or be undead an indeterminate level of levels later when you finally hit 20, why would you wait? Even if you're starting a game at high levels 4-6 levels is a long time to wait for your undead transformation, and if you're playing at low levels Necropolitan is likely to be the only practical way you can be undead. "Don't be a Necropolitan, it interferes with eventually becoming a Lich" seems like very short-sight advice for anything except a character springing into existence at level 20.

JaronK
2010-02-02, 11:20 PM
I actually like pure DN. The Fear Aura is great, and it increases with class level. Your maximum undead controlled is also class level based, though admittedly I was never able to come close to maxing it anyway.

There's also a nice Necromancer variant in UA that's worth looking at.

JaronK

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-02, 11:24 PM
It is, but if your situation is be Undead *now* with Necropolitan or be undead an indeterminate level of levels later when you finally hit 20, why would you wait? Even if you're starting a game at high levels 4-6 levels is a long time to wait for your undead transformation, and if you're playing at low levels Necropolitan is likely to be the only practical way you can be undead. "Don't be a Necropolitan, it interferes with eventually becoming a Lich" seems like very short-sight advice for anything except a character springing into existence at level 20.

My point was that the capstone of Dread Necro was enough for me to take the class to level 20.
I am fully aware that becoming an undead 17 levels earlier and at a negileble cost it is in fact much better and rewarding in short term, plus if you get the caster that will make you a necropolitan have the corpsecrafter line and doing it on a desecrated area things just get silly.

And that makes me think if it would be worthwhile to wait till level 6 to get leadership and make sure your cohort have those feats...

JoshuaZ
2010-02-02, 11:32 PM
My point was that the capstone of Dread Necro was enough for me to take the class to level 20.
I am fully aware that becoming an undead 17 levels earlier and at a negileble cost it is in fact much better and rewarding in short term, plus if you get the caster that will make you a necropolitan have the corpsecrafter line and doing it on a desecrated area things just get silly.

And that makes me think if it would be worthwhile to wait till level 6 to get leadership and make sure your cohort have those feats...

RAW, I'm not sure the Corpsecraft trick works. Don't have LM on me at hand, but I think Corpsecrafter is RAW wise restricted to undead created with spells. The desecrated trick does work since it just says "An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD. "

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-02, 11:46 PM
RAW, I'm not sure the Corpsecraft trick works. Don't have LM on me at hand, but I think Corpsecrafter is RAW wise restricted to undead created with spells. The desecrated trick does work since it just says "An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +1 hit points per HD. "

It says any undead creater or raised by a necromantic spell but since the rite of becoming necropolitan requires Arcane casting level it is IMHO not too far-fetched to treat it as a spell.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-02, 11:58 PM
It is, but if your situation is be Undead *now* with Necropolitan or be undead an indeterminate level of levels later when you finally hit 20, why would you wait? Even if you're starting a game at high levels 4-6 levels is a long time to wait for your undead transformation, and if you're playing at low levels Necropolitan is likely to be the only practical way you can be undead. "Don't be a Necropolitan, it interferes with eventually becoming a Lich" seems like very short-sight advice for anything except a character springing into existence at level 20.

Tomb Tainted gives you all the benefit of Necropolitian without blocking you from getting a free Litch template at level 20

If it didn't suck so hard, I'd almost suggest True Necromancer, just for the Desecrate radius. Sadly, it fails entirely.

EDIT: Actualy... maybe not. With Arcane Disciple, you can get the Death domain, throw that onto the Dread Necromancer... you'd have no lost levels, at least...

JoshuaZ
2010-02-03, 12:05 AM
If it didn't suck so hard, I'd almost suggest True Necromancer, just for the Desecrate radius. Sadly, it fails entirely.

It doesn't suck quite as much if you are intending to start in epic levels as I understand it (I've never played epic). In that case, you can use TN and MT to get 9th level spellcasting on both sides at 21 or 22. And then you progress with MT all the rest of the way.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 12:12 AM
If there was some way to cast Summon Undead II as a divine spell as a Dread Necromancer (who casts arcane, unfortunately, otherwise it would be perfect single-class entry), then a four level dip would be perfect.

Anyone know how to cheese this requirement?

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 12:19 AM
If there was some way to cast Summon Undead II as a divine spell as a Dread Necromancer (who casts arcane, unfortunately, otherwise it would be perfect single-class entry), then a four level dip would be perfect.

Anyone know how to cheese this requirement?Southern Magician from OA works, IIRC.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 12:54 AM
Then a four-level dip in True Necro might be the perfect way to end Dread Necro... you get a Desecrate aura for free. No lost caster levels, either

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 01:03 AM
Then a four-level dip in True Necro might be the perfect way to end Dread Necro... you get a Desecrate aura for free. No lost caster levels, eitherDon't forget that level one of TN only advances Divine, which I don't know a way around. And what do you mean, p4 levels is a perfect way to end DN? DN gives you 8 levels, WitW gives you 10, you only have 2 left. If you're going fear-based, you have 7 left. I can't think of any DN build that uses exactly 8 levels of PrCs.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 01:04 AM
Also, there's a ring that just gives you a (admittedly shorter range) desecrate aura. That's far more worthwhile. DN 8/Palemaster 2/WitW 10 might make sense, if getting enough Onyxes is a problem and you can't Spellstitch.

JaronK

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 01:08 AM
Don't forget that level one of TN only advances Divine, which I don't know a way around. And what do you mean, p4 levels is a perfect way to end DN? DN gives you 8 levels, WitW gives you 10, you only have 2 left. If you're going fear-based, you have 7 left. I can't think of any DN build that uses exactly 8 levels of PrCs.

You got that backwards... the first level of TN only advances Arcane, not Divine. Since we're not using Divine casting... not a problem.

And why 8 levels of DN? Go with DN6/TN4/WitW10

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 01:16 AM
You got that backwards... the first level of TN only advances Arcane, not Divine. Since we're not using Divine casting... not a problem.

And why 8 levels of DN? Go with DN6/TN4/WitW102nd level then, sorry. I block as much of that class from my mind as possible.

And DN 8 gets you a good familiar, an Advanced Learning, another use of your neg energy burst(eh, but decent), and Undead Mastery. Basically, any DN will stay until 6 because you have to, 7 because the familiar is good, and then 8 gets you an Advanced Learning and better tanks, so it's worth it for the cost of 1 level.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 01:22 AM
2nd level then, sorry. I block as much of that class from my mind as possible.

And DN 8 gets you a good familiar, an Advanced Learning, another use of your neg energy burst(eh, but decent), and Undead Mastery. Basically, any DN will stay until 6 because you have to, 7 because the familiar is good, and then 8 gets you an Advanced Learning and better tanks, so it's worth it for the cost of 1 level.

Actually, it is more worth it to delay Advanced Learning to get a higher level spell known. Familiars are either worse than worthless or utter crack, depending on if you use cheese or not, so that's a non-issue. So again... not an issue.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-03, 01:26 AM
Actually, it is more worth it to delay Advanced Learning to get a higher level spell known. Familiars are either worse than worthless or utter crack, depending on if you use cheese or not, so that's a non-issue. So again... not an issue.The advanced learning comes at a level you want it, level 8, and would still come up in an ECL 20 build even if you delayed it. And check out the familiar list for DNs. It's actually pretty good without cheese.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 01:45 AM
The advanced learning comes at a level you want it, level 8, and would still come up in an ECL 20 build even if you delayed it. And check out the familiar list for DNs. It's actually pretty good without cheese.

Indeed. Ghostly Visage is particularly powerful, as it can effectively give you (Ex) Mind Blank at will.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 02:50 AM
Actually, it is more worth it to delay Advanced Learning to get a higher level spell known.

You'd have to delay by two levels to get better Advanced Learning (unlike with Beguilers) and in fact some of the best DN Advanced Learning spells are low level. Black Sand, Ghoul Glyph, and Shivering Touch come to mind. Of course, there are great higher level spells like Animate Dread Warrior, Awaken Undead, and Haunt Shift, but delaying ALs is less important for Dread Necromancers than for, say, Beguilers.


Familiars are either worse than worthless or utter crack, depending on if you use cheese or not, so that's a non-issue. So again... not an issue.

Dread Necro familiars are actually incredible. Ghostly Visages give Mind Blank at will and a paralyzing fear effect that can be in addition to anything else you do, and they can dominate enemies for 24 hours at a time. That's not cheese, that's just what they do.

And the DN 8 ability is quite nice, especially because unlike Corpse Crafter it'll work with spell likes (Spellstitching is SO nice).

JaronK

Jarrick
2010-02-03, 09:06 AM
The Deadwalker's ring from complete mage gives undead you create +2HP/HD Though it doesn't stack with desecrate, it's just as good. Oh, and Undead Mastery (The Dread Necro's 8th lv. ability) also dramatically increases the size of your control pool. Very useful for controlling those 20hd ettin zombies, 10-headed hydra zombies, and those 19hd skeletal storm giants.
...
...
My DM is always stuffing us into smaller and smaller dungeons for this reason... :smalltongue:

Edit: Dread necro is also good to stick with because it increases your rebuking. Right now, I command through rebuking a Corpse (BoVD) Kelvezu Demon (MM2) that has an AC of 50 that I possess using Magic Jar (Works on anything with an intellegence score). Or at least I did until I died and came back as a ghost. Now I can possess him at will. It makes melee a cool option for my otherwise crippled (RP Flaw: Slow) Karrnathi ex-captain of the 607th skeletal archers.

MandibleBones
2010-02-03, 09:41 AM
What about the Ur-Priest trick, since being a Dread Necro 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / True Necromancer 8 might actually be appropriate here? 9th Level Arcane and Divine spells with an evil/necro flavor at 20?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-03, 12:27 PM
What about the Ur-Priest trick, since being a Dread Necro 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / True Necromancer 8 might actually be appropriate here? 9th Level Arcane and Divine spells with an evil/necro flavor at 20?

That build works not because TN is good at all, but that because Ur-Priest is so overpowered that it makes this build work ok anyways. Even then, you could have 8 levels of Mystic Theurge there instead and you get one more level of DN and UP casting that way.

MandibleBones
2010-02-03, 01:13 PM
That build works not because TN is good at all, but that because Ur-Priest is so overpowered that it makes this build work ok anyways. Even then, you could have 8 levels of Mystic Theurge there instead and you get one more level of DN and UP casting that way.

True enough. I was thinking from a flavor perspective while keeping the optimizing side of things as well. You're absolutely right I'd go MT instead of TN, though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 02:32 PM
I was looking at a single-class entry into TN explicitly for the Desecrate thing, not make a Double-Plus Good MT, although it does have merits...

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:41 PM
What about the Ur-Priest trick, since being a Dread Necro 10 / Ur-Priest 2 / True Necromancer 8 might actually be appropriate here? 9th Level Arcane and Divine spells with an evil/necro flavor at 20?

You will only have 8th level divines with that build. True Necro 8 adds 6 cleric levels to your Ur-Priest 2, not 7.

MandibleBones
2010-02-03, 02:51 PM
You will only have 8th level divines with that build. True Necro 8 adds 6 cleric levels to your Ur-Priest 2, not 7.

Ah. My bad. Would DN 9 / UP 2 / TN 9 do the 9/9, or would this just hurt the DN classes? (Don't have access to my books right now).

Regardless, it's apparently not the same as what the OP wanted.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:54 PM
Ah. My bad. Would DN 9 / UP 2 / TN 9 do the 9/9, or would this just hurt the DN classes? (Don't have access to my books right now).

Regardless, it's apparently not the same as what the OP wanted.

You now have Divine 9ths (Ur-Priest 9) but only 8ths in Arcane (DN 16.)

AirGuitarGod32
2010-02-03, 02:55 PM
No love for Death Lord? Its Necromancer, but better.

Here's my combo: DN 8/Ur Priest 3/Conteplative 1/TN 6

Picketh your favorite Undead-Oriented domain and have fun!

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 03:20 PM
You will only have 8th level divines with that build. True Necro 8 adds 6 cleric levels to your Ur-Priest 2, not 7.

How so? You only loose Divine at the 1st level of TN. 2nd looses a level of Arcane, and after that it promotes both sides.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-02-03, 09:44 PM
You're probably better off with just Tomb-Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis) than Necropolitan for a Dread Necromancer. Losing your constitution score hurts, and being subject to all the weaknesses of other undead hurts even more. There are few things more annoying than ending up turned.

Yeah, but think of all the immunities you get to make up for it. There are plenty of ways to bolster turn resistance, be they feats or magic items. And you get d12 HD, which are very nice. If you take this route, you can actually wade into melee at lower levels without too much worry. It also lets you pick up some pretty sweet undead-only feats, such as Lifesense from Libris Mortis.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, think of the flavor (and not the taste kind, I'm pretty sure you lose that)! What is cooler than being an undead without your party even realizing (Disguise is a DN class skill)??