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elliott20
2010-02-03, 12:10 AM
As part of the Age of Warriors project (look in my sig for those of you who are curious), one of the ideas I was toying with was to get some of the vets here to help put together a guide on creating/using monsters with martial initiator powers. We've already seen some great homebrew monsters that have this and they look fantastic.

The point of this thread is for people to discuss how you can modify existing monsters within the MM to the same effect, some guidelines on how to do so, rules surrounding it such as CR modification, and so on.

So, with that in mind, here some basic concepts I was thinking about.

Somebody else wrote up a guide for GMs on how to run monsters and what not. One of the key things he said there is that one of the good ways you can modify a monster's feat list is to give them the martial study feat in place of an existing feat to give them some more firepower. This is a great concept, but I think this idea deserves more exploration.

The most pertinent questions in my mind are:

1. What kind of maneuvers/stances would fit best with what type of monster
2. How do you use them in combat
3. How does this modify their GM related stats like CR and such?

For humanoid like monsters, this would be a rather trivial thing, since you would basically treat them like any other martial initiate with maybe some additional synergies to go around.

But what happens when you want to say, give an awaken boar martial maneuvers? i.e. give the boar stone dragon maneuvers to use along with it's gore attack makes it a pretty interesting challenge.

So, what do you guys think of this idea?

Zom B
2010-02-03, 08:16 AM
Let me just say I misread the title of this thread and got a mental image of an orc stopping in the middle of combat to ask for a player's hand in marriage.

I've always been a supporter of monsters whose tactics go beyond "see if we can make them fall down in a pool of our blood while we build a wall around them with our dead". I'd never considered using ToB on them, though.

Sereg
2010-02-03, 11:00 AM
Definately a good idea. I do not feel qualified to contribute though.

elliott20
2010-02-03, 12:30 PM
a lot of this will really become a matter of optimizing. Maybe we should bring this topic out to the general D&D discussion and ask the posters there, since this is strictly speaking, not as much of a homebrew anymore.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 12:44 PM
You mean giving them Martial Study as a bonus feat? If they just take the feat normally it shouldn't adjust their CR at all, it's the same as any other feat. On the other hand, you could give a monster maneuvers as if they were a crusader/swordsage/warblade of their CR, and that might warrant a slight CR increase. On the other hand there is such a thing as an action economy, and it also depends on how much a monster benefits from the addition. So, as a general rule of thumb, I'd say the martial study feat doesn't warrant a CR increase, but giving a monster maneuvers as a warblade of their (newly adjusted) CR should increase their CR by about 2, or at least that's what I would think. Edit: For example I would imagine an Ogre (normally CR 3) capable of using warblade maneuvers as a 5th level warblade would be about CR 5.

elliott20
2010-02-03, 08:20 PM
Yeah, but then by that point it's basically the same thing as stacking class levels on a monster, so I guess we can always just calculated THAT way. Of course, getting those rules straight between LA, ECL, CR is another story all together.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 08:28 PM
Yeah, but then by that point it's basically the same thing as stacking class levels on a monster, so I guess we can always just calculated THAT way. Of course, getting those rules straight between LA, ECL, CR is another story all together.

Hmm, how do monsters work with IL if you do it that way? I guess you could say their initiator level is half their HD plus their levels in initiator classes, to a max of their CR. In that case if their HD is enough to give them initiator level = CR then a martial adept class is an associated class level, otherwise it is non-associated. Anyways like I said if they just take the feat no CR adjustment is really necessary.

elliott20
2010-02-03, 08:30 PM
Yeah I suppose.

It's just that some feats are so much better than others. But of course, if we are going to adjust CR simply because of bad feat choice, an NPC fighter would be getting CRs all over the place instead of just being based on their level. So yeah, I agree.

So the next question is... WHAT should monsters pick?

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 08:41 PM
Yeah I suppose.

It's just that some feats are so much better than others. But of course, if we are going to adjust CR simply because of bad feat choice, an NPC fighter would be getting CRs all over the place instead of just being based on their level. So yeah, I agree.

So the next question is... WHAT should monsters pick?

Most monsters are more straightforward if you just give them big damaging maneuvers.

DracoDei
2010-02-03, 08:47 PM
Yes, but that gets rather boring after a while, wouldn't you say?

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 09:00 PM
Yes, but that gets rather boring after a while, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps, but making DMing easier is never a bad thing. At any rate different maneuvers are suitable for different monsters. I'm now tempted to make a prestige class for dragons like the ones in the Draconomicon, except it will grant maneuvers.

Glimbur
2010-02-03, 09:10 PM
It's interesting to give them things to do with their Swift action, like Boosts or Sudden Leap. Maneuverability things, for example the Shadow Hand teleports, can also be useful.

But honestly, the best way for an ogre to enter the room is by Mountain Hammering the door.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-03, 11:42 PM
Oddly enough, my thoughts on the matter vary. Part of this is because, while it makes sense that monsters can't produce the same effect regularly, the idea of them taking a moment to get their head together is altogether even sillier.

If anything, I'd rule that monsters use one of the following:
The Crusader recharge system, meaning that they cycle through abilities somewhat randomly. Certainly suits animal intelligence and instinct...
One action every [insert time period], probably the 1d4 of a breath weapon. I used this with my modified initiator system and it worked well enough with characters [see A Question of Tome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130012)]. In fact, i'm willing to contribute those feats to the book if they would help for monsters.
Some kind of tiered ability use like I used on the Bowback Monkupine [one to three manoeuvres on a tier, the use of one shunts you to the next tier, each beyond the first having a stance connected to it, which in turn contains a new set of one to three manouvres]

The Martial Study solution is simple but runs slap into the problem that the three monsters in the TOB itself had: they're supposed to be innate martial terrors and yet they have sod all manoeuvres and can only use them once!

A secondary concern that's worth spending a moment on is what kinds of natural weapon match with which kinds of discipline weapons? I can see TOM Deadly Dancers pulling off Diamond Mind or Iron Heart manoeuvres but i can't see a boar managing them [aside from maybe the disarmy, trippy IH ones using its tusks...].

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 03:46 AM
What about the Setting Sun ones? A well timed Ballista throw, for example- using the horns to send an enemy flying back into his allies with great force.

Eldan
2010-02-04, 03:58 AM
It would very much depend on the monster, I'd think. And the more intelligent the critter, the more tactical the maneuvers. A shadow hand pixie assassin? Pretty terrifying, if done right, I'd assume.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 05:18 AM
I was really thinking in terms of non-humanoid creatures: pixies are humanoid, albiet winged and are thus not an issue, simply becoming a host for class levels.

Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand and White Raven aren't really problematic as they're relatively simple to think about, with Setting Sun being solid enough to be imaginable.

Mountain Hammer can function with anything that relies on brute force.

The ones that cause issues are Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, which are based on skill at arms, usually with pointy weapons. That said, IH can be used fairly simply as it's mostly utilitarian [stances non-withstanding] and DM isn't really something most monsters are capable of because it requires Concentration for the most part [bit difficult to imagine on a non-humanoid, non-aberration]

No real comment on Devoted Spirit or Desert Wind. I'm sure they could find niches but both involve channelling stuff. Fire elementals creatures and celestials aside, i can't seem all that much call for them.

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 05:19 AM
A pack of White Raven wolves might be pretty alarming.

Eldan
2010-02-04, 05:37 AM
True... but then I doubt that normal wolves would be able to study maneuvers. Winter wolves, or worgs, on the other hand...

For Diamond Mind, I could well see several outsiders being interested in the style. Some Yugoloth are big on the entire mind over matter thing, and I can imagine the Modrons being all over it.

Also, Desert Wind is basically perfect for the Firre Eladrin.

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 05:46 AM
i can't see a boar managing them [aside from maybe the disarmy, trippy IH ones using its tusks...].

Main reason I mentioned it was this.

The notion of an exceptionally legendary wild boar with Setting Sun maneuvers, or wolf pack with White Raven manuevers, could be a good way to alarm the PCs when one or two of the manuevers are used.

It would be a bit like spell-like abilities, but for manuevers- they aren't very intelligent, they just "have a knack" so to speak.

For example, if the setting was medieval Europe, the Wolf with the manuevers, would be a Big-Name wolf, say, the dreaded Beast Of Gevaudan.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 06:01 AM
True... but then I doubt that normal wolves would be able to study maneuvers. Winter wolves, or worgs, on the other hand...

For Diamond Mind, I could well see several outsiders being interested in the style. Some Yugoloth are big on the entire mind over matter thing, and I can imagine the Modrons being all over it.

Also, Desert Wind is basically perfect for the Firre Eladrin.

I believe the point of this discussion was about monsters using, rather than studying, manoeuvres. Anything that has two feet, two hands and a head, plus an intelligence bigger than 3 can successfully study as a martial class and no comment needs to be made about it.

Where things are actually interesting for the GM is including such abilities as part of the abilities of beasts, tentacular horrors and serpantine menaces.

Yes, Hamish, that would be pretty frightening. It has a certain merit, given how dangerous canines are in real life, it'd be interesting to see pack tactics be actually grizzly, probably with a smart alpha in charge.

Wouldn't the following be more interesting to run as a GM?
Tigers that actually use Tiger Claw techniques
A stone eating Bulette using Stone Dragon
Advanced Chokers with Shadow Hand and Setting Sun
A flame maned fire elemental beast Lion using Desert Wind
A tainted Otugyh with Far Realm
Chuuls with Ocean Soul/the other one
A clan of martial mindflayers with most of their psionics swapped out for a crusader progression of Diamond Mind
A white pelted alpha in a wolf pack who's bays count as White Raven manoeuvres
Just a few off the top of my head...

P.S. Elliot? If i ask nicely, can the Bow-back and the Mountain Eater be put on the list of critters or were they caboshed while i wasn't paying attention? http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134487

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 06:05 AM
This list sums it up pretty well.

Not everybody may like a ToB-heavy campaign, but the notion definitely stirs the imagination.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 06:11 AM
Probably a safe bet that anyone reading this section of Age of Warriors does though...

Eldan
2010-02-04, 06:19 AM
Ah. Sorry then, I seem to be a little slow today.

Let's see...

The Tiger Claw Tiger just makes sense.
A giant turtle with defensive maneuvers?
The legendary Chtonic Serpent Kraken?
A bird of prey, say an eagle, with grappling maneuvers could work pretty well. Giant Eagle if you want to use it against PCs.

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 07:11 AM
Even if only the leader of a pack is a high level creature with White Raven maneuvers, it can still make the low level ones much more useful.

The Unholy Scion template from Heroes of Horror can be applied to animals and humanoids, is very similar to half-fiend (but with no minimum Int restriction, and no bat-wings- creature is almost indistinguishable from base. It also boosts Int massively)

An Unholy Scion at the head of a group- especially a group of Small creatures with the Swarmfighting feat (allowing 3 to occupy the same square) and a lot of levels of Warblade (White Raven speciality) could exploit the high level powers very well.

Maybe the discipline could be named in the first place for the exploits of an especially savage flock of ravens, lead by an Unholy Scion raven with white feathers?

Oslecamo
2010-02-04, 07:39 AM
If you just consider that racial HD count for half initiator level, just give the monsters ToB levels and go to town. From my experience it works pretty well and it sure suprises the players.

I don't see any need to link certain kinds of monsters to certain kind of maneuvers. A tiger teleporting or a spider bursting in flames is all fine and dandy in the crazy world of D&D.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 08:24 AM
Key point here is that they're all nifty ideas but in cases where it doesn't make sense to just slap character levels on the beast, we could do with a nice fallback recharge method for the manoeuvres. Something that makes them about as powerful as spell-like abilities.

I'd suggest either a plug and play table with a set arrangement of things on it [derived in some mutually agreeable manner] or a distinct refreshment method [i'm favouring spending a round out of combat, without attacking at range] for monsters to refresh their stuff...

elliott20
2010-02-04, 08:54 AM
Mulletmanalive, they certainly should have made it in. I think the only reason they didnt was because I haven't updated the main archive post in like... forever.

Hey, just to make sure I don't forget, or at least I know where to find it when I get around to it, you can always just drop them into the archive thread in my sig.

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 10:12 AM
So- does my suggested possible origin for the name of White Raven for that discipline seem interesting? or a bit silly?

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 11:02 AM
i think it's a fine idea; i just fundamentally dislike the Warblade so i'd prefer to see it have a unique regeneration method or use crusader levels.

In this case, i feel a little more justified as a] tiny creatures with too many hp seem silly, b] i can't really see a raven strategist flourishing [an issue with the warblade] and c] its non-strike attacks are more or less pointless so it doesn't serve it to remain in combat to regenerate with a standard attack.

Is there a particular reason why you've taken to unholy scion? I've heard this before but i've never really gotten a "bury them in corpses" vibe from White Raven...

hamishspence
2010-02-04, 11:17 AM
Mostly because it produces a very high Int on an ordinary animal. And it doesn't much affect the creature's appearance- usually something subtle like eye colour, or skin colour, rather than horns, spikes, bat wings, etc.

Though Awakened Animal could work, as well.

The highest level White Raven powers enable an enormous quantity of creatures to attack the target at once, gain a bonus to hit for every one that's attacking, and a big bonus to damage.

Result- if the target is large enough, you can swarm it from all sides with so many creatures (with them all being certain to hit) that within a round or so, the creature is down.

Though I'd probably go with something slightly bigger- Small birds + Swarmfighting, rather than Tiny birds- maybe advanced ravens?

It doesn't have to be a warblade per se- but it does need high level warblade-type powers.

jiriku
2010-02-04, 11:17 AM
Monsters with several maneuvers can actually get by pretty well without a recharge method, especially if their maneuvers are situational, such as most counters and movement-enhancing maneuvers. Creatures usually get killed so quickly in combat that they really won't be fighting long enough to use more than 2-4 maneuvers.

From my experience, crusader levels are a nightmare for the DM when it comes to combat management. Imagine you create five or six identical creatures, each with five maneuvers readied. Each of your creatures will randomly start with different maneuver, and every round gain a new random maneuver. It's a huge pain in the butt to track the maneuvers currently available to each creature independently. ("He uses Shield Counter against your attack! Oh wait, no, it was the other guy who has Shield Counter granted right now.")

Drolyt
2010-02-04, 11:32 AM
Monsters with several maneuvers can actually get by pretty well without a recharge method, especially if their maneuvers are situational, such as most counters and movement-enhancing maneuvers. Creatures usually get killed so quickly in combat that they really won't be fighting long enough to use more than 2-4 maneuvers.

From my experience, crusader levels are a nightmare for the DM when it comes to combat management. Imagine you create five or six identical creatures, each with five maneuvers readied. Each of your creatures will randomly start with different maneuver, and every round gain a new random maneuver. It's a huge pain in the butt to track the maneuvers currently available to each creature independently. ("He uses Shield Counter against your attack! Oh wait, no, it was the other guy who has Shield Counter granted right now.")

The crusader method is weird to begin with. The Warblade gets the best recovery for no easily explained reason. The Swordsage recovery means that not taking Adaptive Style is stupid.

Oslecamo
2010-02-04, 06:09 PM
The crusader method is weird to begin with. The Warblade gets the best recovery for no easily explained reason.

The warblade also learns less maneuvers and can ready less at a time. A
reasonable drawback for the ease of spamming them.

Crusaders are insane psycopaths whose main feature is "smite whatever's in front of me" and heal themselves by violence, so of course they get their maneuvers at random. Others call it divine inspiration. Crusaders call it "The voices on my head".



The Swordsage recovery means that not taking Adaptive Style is stupid.

I could say the same thing for natural spell. And Divine metamagic. And font of inspiration. All feats clearly made for a single class, and so damn good you have no reason to not take them.

Mulletmanalive:You're not being very logic there:
1-You don't want tiny monsters to have too much HP.
2-On the other hand, you want them to have spammable maneuvers.
3-BUT if the monsters have low HP, what makes you think they'll live enough time to use a maneuver more than once?

If anything, I would just say that they auto-recharge every 5 turns, wich is the average time for an ecounter. But they being 1 shot per battle never gave me any trouble. Suprise the party, then fall back on other abilities.

Mulletmanalive
2010-02-04, 07:37 PM
From my point of view, it is logical. The point of discussion is about the White Raven. While you might think "oh it's a legend, it must by default be powerful" i don't agree with that sentiment.

With repeated uses of it's core buffs, it can turn a collection of low power creatures into a dangerous force, ravens being pretty flimsy creatures but difficult to hit.

Setting up a situation where you're either faced with a massively powerful White Raven and puny normal ones is anticlimactic because characters of too low level can't actually fight the white raven without being one-shotted, while the remainder would be instantly toasted by the first fireball in play if the party could face the raven itself.

Conversely, if it's only ever accompanied by advanced ravens, it's not really the White Raven that's worthy of legend when the supporting ravens can quite happily lay waste to swathes of the countryside with their 6-8HD.

I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be more powerful than a raven, just that the previous suggestion of "just slap some Warblade levels on it" won't make it legendary, it'll make it fall into one of the above.

In the White Raven's case especially, the disengaging recharge makes for dynamic combat, especially considering the large number of Flyby Attack packing ravens it's going to have with it.

hamishspence
2010-02-05, 03:43 AM
True- I was thinking of it at the peak of its power- but it doesn't have to be- it can be making full use of its capability to use manuevers from very early on.

Its not the only possible "name origin" story- but it's the one that first sprung to mind.

Oslecamo
2010-02-05, 09:57 PM
From my point of view, it is logical. The point of discussion is about the White Raven. While you might think "oh it's a legend, it must by default be powerful" i don't agree with that sentiment.
But it's the basic D&D sentiment. With great powers come great buckets of HD. Otherwise the White Raven would've just be one shoted by some random angry archer/sliner, and your legend ends right there.



With repeated uses of it's core buffs, it can turn a collection of low power creatures into a dangerous force, ravens being pretty flimsy creatures but difficult to hit.

And what happens to your low HP raven horde when someone remembers to shoot a fireball at it?



Setting up a situation where you're either faced with a massively powerful White Raven and puny normal ones is anticlimactic because characters of too low level can't actually fight the white raven without being one-shotted, while the remainder would be instantly toasted by the first fireball in play if the party could face the raven itself.

It's even more anticlimatic your way. If the White Raven can spam maneuveres at low levels, then the party is going down. Hard. They have too little HP and AC. A vanilla band of ravens is a dangerous threat against a party under level 5. Give them martial training and they become even more dangerous. Give them spammable maneuvers and you end the session so you can make new characters.



Conversely, if it's only ever accompanied by advanced ravens, it's not really the White Raven that's worthy of legend when the supporting ravens can quite happily lay waste to swathes of the countryside with their 6-8HD.

Or, the White Raven is actualy smart enough to disperse his weack troops so the first area spell shot won't taken them all down. Anyway, a "legend" under CR 4 in D&D is no legend at all. Even the town guard would stomp over it with enough casualities.



I'm not suggesting that it shouldn't be more powerful than a raven, just that the previous suggestion of "just slap some Warblade levels on it" won't make it legendary, it'll make it fall into one of the above.

What? A legend that can take an arrow and not instantly die? Gritty system where legends die just as your common mortal is in the other thread if I remember correctly.



In the White Raven's case especially, the disengaging recharge makes for dynamic combat, especially considering the large number of Flyby Attack packing ravens it's going to have with it.
No, it makes for a boring combat at best, and TPK at worst. Boring because most low level PC abilities will be useless, forcing them to either ready attacks and wait for the ravens to close by or just pling at the ravens with whatever ranged weapon they have at hand. The PCs can't flank. They PCs can't charge. And the party's crusader will be pretty pissed off that some random raven can spam WR maneuvers, while he's stuck with his random paranoia .

deuxhero
2010-02-05, 10:32 PM
I'm now tempted to make a prestige class for dragons like the ones in the Draconomicon, except it will grant maneuvers.

Wyrm of War archetype, DoE.

Drolyt
2010-02-05, 11:07 PM
Wyrm of War archetype, DoE.

Not familiar with it. What is DoE?

hamishspence
2010-02-06, 06:59 AM
Dragons Of Eberron.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 11:54 AM
Dragons Of Eberron.

Don't have it. Could you summarize?

hamishspence
2010-02-06, 05:58 PM
To sum up:

They are upgrades to existing true dragons. If the true dragon has the ability to cast cleric spells, and domain spells, the upgrade replaces cleric spells & domain spells (But not arcane spells).

Since technically, dragons even without these clerical abilities can take the archetypes, those that do, effectively get good powers for free.

Wyrm of War has two options- the fighter version, and the martial version.

The fighter version gets proficiency with all armor (including shields) all simple and martial weapons, and a bonus feat for every 4 hit dice it has. These feats may be fighter bonus feats, or combat-related feats tied to dracoic abilities (such as Wingover).

The martial version counts sorcerer level as initiator level for determining maneuvers and stances known and readied (doesn't say what class it uses though, for readying purposes). However, to learn a maneuver or stance, it must permanently sacrifice a sorcerer spell slot of the same level.

My guess is, use Swordsage as a guideline for detemining how many stances it may have, and how many maneuvers it can have readied at once.

And only Tiger Claw maneuvers are suggested.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 06:08 PM
To sum up:

They are upgrades to existing true dragons. If the true dragon has the ability to cast cleric spells, and domain spells, the upgrade replaces cleric spells & domain spells (But not arcane spells).

Since technically, dragons even without these clerical abilities can take the archetypes, those that do, effectively get good powers for free.

Wyrm of War has two options- the fighter version, and the martial version.

The fighter version gets proficiency with all armor (including shields) all simple and martial weapons, and a bonus feat for every 4 hit dice it has. These feats may be fighter bonus feats, or combat-related feats tied to dracoic abilities (such as Wingover).

The martial version counts sorcerer level as initiator level for determining maneuvers and stances known and readied (doesn't say what class it uses though, for readying purposes). However, to learn a maneuver or stance, it must permanently sacrifice a sorcerer spell slot of the same level.

My guess is, use Swordsage as a guideline for detemining how many stances it may have, and how many maneuvers it can have readied at once.

And only Tiger Claw maneuvers are suggested.

That's actually quite interesting, although I'm not sure it's a great trade off. At least, isn't a Dragon's CL far lower than it's CR? I'm not sure they can get any really good maneuvers that way. Although, if they had maneuvers of an IL equal to their CR they might be too strong for most groups. Well, most Dragon's didn't need access to Cleric Spells anyways. I might try that in an adventure soon.

hamishspence
2010-02-06, 06:19 PM
Given several chromatics don't come with cleric spells- and can take the archetypes anyway- it can be a case of getting a lot and giving up nothing.

The martial initiator variant of Wyrm of War at least has to pay sorcerer slots to get manuevers.

And Loredrakes, while better at casting, get their racial Hit Dice downgraded to D8.

While Tiger Claw is the norm- I would not be averse to the idea of a Shadow Dragon Wyrm of War with Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Or a Red Dragon with Desert Wind manuevers.

DracoDei
2010-02-06, 06:40 PM
Wing Dragons would be a good match for Shadow-Hand and/or Setting Sun.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 07:00 PM
Given several chromatics don't come with cleric spells- and can take the archetypes anyway- it can be a case of getting a lot and giving up nothing.

The martial initiator variant of Wyrm of War at least has to pay sorcerer slots to get manuevers.

And Loredrakes, while better at casting, get their racial Hit Dice downgraded to D8.

While Tiger Claw is the norm- I would not be averse to the idea of a Shadow Dragon Wyrm of War with Shadow Hand maneuvers.

Or a Red Dragon with Desert Wind manuevers.

Well, the fighter version is a case of getting a lot and giving up (almost, for dragon's with cleric spells) nothing. But the Initiator version has to give up spell slots, and I'm not sure that's necessarily worth it, at least not when the dragon oriented spells from the Draconomicon are allowed. Of course I don't know why I'm worried about optimizing an NPC, I guess I'm too used to player's with broken characters. Those rules are still cool though, and I think I would use whatever maneuvers I deemed appropriate. They are NPCs after all, no reason to follow guidelines on what maneuvers they are allowed.

hamishspence
2010-02-06, 07:08 PM
Yup- I figure that dragons with full arcane casting and full swordsage or warblade initiator power is a bit much though.

It's a case of "what's a fair opponent for the party".

TXorvintaal dragons from MMV go even further- Xorvintaal is a template that can be applied to any true dragon, causing them to lose spellcasting and spell resistance.

In exchange, they have have an array of exotic abilities. This allows the DM to create dragons with interesting powers (and they don't all have the same powers) which aren't just "dragon-shaped wizards" so to speak.

The Sovereign Archetypes fall mid-way between the two- they only give up cleric & domain spells, they only have a few special powers.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 11:47 PM
Yup- I figure that dragons with full arcane casting and full swordsage or warblade initiator power is a bit much though.

It's a case of "what's a fair opponent for the party".

TXorvintaal dragons from MMV go even further- Xorvintaal is a template that can be applied to any true dragon, causing them to lose spellcasting and spell resistance.

In exchange, they have have an array of exotic abilities. This allows the DM to create dragons with interesting powers (and they don't all have the same powers) which aren't just "dragon-shaped wizards" so to speak.

The Sovereign Archetypes fall mid-way between the two- they only give up cleric & domain spells, they only have a few special powers.

Now MMV I have. I always thought the Xorvintaal fluff was kinda weird, but it's really cool once you get over the weirdness, and it's a pretty interesting template for making your Dragons more memorable foes. I still think that spellcasting is probably a more powerful option, especially if the Draconomicon is used, since there are some really useful sorcerer/wizard spells specifically designed for Dragons. Even without the Draconomicon there are several really useful spells, especially at epic levels when they can learn things like Time Stop and Mordenkainen's Disjunction, but even at low levels there are some great battlefield control spells they could use. The biggest difference is that with alternate options like Xorvintaal or the initiator thing the abilities tend to more directly improve the Dragons attacks, whereas a Dragon with spellcasting has to be creative to get the most out of his spells since he is invariably a lower spellcaster level then he is CR. This is less true once you get to the highest level Dragons, which can cast 9th level spells and can take Epic Spellcasting, thus turning them into spellcasters who happen to be Dragons, but I imagine those are rather rare in most campaigns (the ELH tends to see very little use).

Edit: I just realized I am both off topic and that I have no idea where I am going with this.

elliott20
2010-02-07, 08:46 AM
Dragons with desert wind discipline would probably be a little redundant, wouldn't it?