Drugs

[Lvl45DM!]

OK ive got a player who plays a druid, and decided that the druid is a stoner. Its just a massive joke filled with hilarity, but he tried to use it to get into a guardhous by getting high with the guards...just wondering what people thought in game effects of sweet mary jane on characters

[magic9mushroom]

OK ive got a player who plays a druid, and decided that the druid is a stoner. Its just a massive joke filled with hilarity, but he tried to use it to get into a guardhous by getting high with the guards...just wondering what people thought in game effects of sweet mary jane on characters

There's drug descriptions in the BoVD. For some reason, it lists taking drugs as evil.

[BigBadBugbear]

I think (also from personal experience, whoohoo for being from Holland)

Weed, 'the good stuff'
Fort
DC 13
Initial Damage
Roll d8
1. Munchies (Must eat, feels the really really strong urge to eat)
2. Calm Emotions (As the spell for 1 hour)
3. Happiness (+1 morale bonus on all rolls)
4. Hideous Laughter (As thew spell for 1 hour)
5. Obsession (Crave for one item not in your possession, chosen randomly.Must do anything to get and keep the item.)
6. Lascivious (Well... 'you know'... for an hour...)
7. Bad trip (1d4 wisdom damage, )
8. Roll twice (yes it stacks...., double effects stacks in intensity not in duration)
Secondary Damage
1d2 dex, 1d2 int, 1d2 cha

We actually use this in our campaigns as an house rule..

[Simba]

I think (also from personal experience, whoohoo for being from Holland)

Weed, 'the good stuff'
Fort
DC 13
Initial Damage
Roll d8
1. Munchies (Must eat, feels the really really strong urge to eat)
2. Calm Emotions (As the spell for 1 hour)
3. Happiness (+1 morale bonus on all rolls)
4. Hideous Laughter (As thew spell for 1 hour)
5. Obsession (Crave for one item not in your possession, chosen randomly.Must do anything to get and keep the item.)
6. Lascivious (Well... 'you know'... for an hour...)
7. Bad trip (1d4 wisdom damage, )
8. Roll twice (yes it stacks...., double effects stacks in intensity not in duration)
Secondary Damage
1d2 dex, 1d2 int, 1d2 cha

We actually use this in out campaigns as an house rule..

Sounds reasonable to me.

[Zincorium]

That seems... a bit strong.

But then, you did say you were from Holland. Perhaps that's the origin of the discrepancy.

[hamishspence]

There's drug descriptions in the BoVD. For some reason, it lists taking drugs as evil.

BoVD is divided into multiple sections- "taking drugs" isn't in the Evil Acts section, but in a later section, along with things like Execution (specifically stated in BoED to be not inherently evil)

So, while risky, it doesn't have to be evil in the setting.

[Optimystik]

As hamish pointed out, the only link between Evil and Drugs in BoVD is forcing others to become addicted. The drugs themselves are not evil, and there are some nice rules there (such as withdrawal symptoms and overdosing.)

[Tyndmyr]

Actually, in one of my current campaigns, we have a CW Samurai(yes, yes, I know) who is a drug pusher. Evil, obviously, but he's constantly selling opium, which leads to all manner of hilarity.

The best part was when he was trying to calculate out how much opium he could afford to order from his home country, and noticed they import Iron. "If only we had some way of getting iron", he mused...until the other players pointed out I knew wall of iron.

Yay for breaking the economy not being my fault this time(directly, at least).

[UglyPanda]

As hamish pointed out, the only link between Evil and Drugs in BoVD is forcing others to become addicted. The drugs themselves are not evil, and there are some nice rules there (such as withdrawal symptoms and overdosing.)You forget that the book includes drugs such as Liquid Agony, which is acquired by using a spell to torture someone for several hours.

So the evil isn't just in addiction, but the method in which you acquire said drugs.

[hamishspence]

True- I think here its a "if the paladin samples it, will they instantly Fall?" question.

I'd say yes, if it was something like liquid agony.

Possibly not, if it wasn't anything like that.

[magic9mushroom]

Well, they are listed in a chapter called "evil equipment", it says that drug addiction is a "horrible trait common to the evil and perverse", drug use as a component of a spell gives it the [Evil] descriptor...

[hamishspence]

So is execution equipment.

That said, the addiction is probably the major problem.

Champions of Ruin mentions it as part of the "cultural issue" description- somebody from one D&D culture may have a more liberal interpretation than somebody from another- and drugs are the example- for some cultures, its a part of "spiritual exploration" for others, its an abomination.

[magic9mushroom]

So is execution equipment.

That said, the addiction is probably the major problem.

Well, executions are also implied to be evil.

[hamishspence]

But explicitly called out as "Not Evil" in BoED.

Painful and horrible executions might be classed as "Death by torture"- but instant death ones, would not be out of place even in a country run by paladins or Exalted characters- reformation is ideal, but sometimes not feasible.

BoED has its own flaws, but that, isn't one of them.

[Optimystik]

Yay for breaking the economy not being my fault this time(directly, at least).

If I was a CW Samurai, I'd hop up on shrooms myself :smalltongue:


You forget that the book includes drugs such as Liquid Agony, which is acquired by using a spell to torture someone for several hours.

So the evil isn't just in addiction, but the method in which you acquire said drugs.

That one is bad, I agree. But there are plenty of mundane ones.


Well, they are listed in a chapter called "evil equipment", it says that drug addiction is a "horrible trait common to the evil and perverse", drug use as a component of a spell gives it the [Evil] descriptor...

Context is important here. Is it Evil to take them yourself? Just as it probably wouldn't be Evil to torture/execute yourself.

It is classed as "Evil equipment," because a vile character would slip drugs into your drink/inject them into your arm while sleeping, etc. to get you hooked and have a customer for life.

For the latter two, that is a general D&D aversion to squicky behavior, like Blood Magus in CArc being barred from LG alignment. It is silly, but not unique to BoVD by any means.

[magic9mushroom]

Context is important here. Is it Evil to take them yourself? Just as it probably wouldn't be Evil to torture/execute yourself.

Well, according to more heavy implication it is Evil to torture yourself. Remember the rules for masochism in that book? :smallamused:


It is classed as "Evil equipment," because a vile character would slip drugs into your drink/inject them into your arm while sleeping, etc. to get you hooked and have a customer for life.

For the latter two, that is a general D&D aversion to squicky behavior, like Blood Magus in CArc being barred from LG alignment. It is silly, but not unique to BoVD by any means.

It most certainly is silly, and the motivation of WotC is quite transparent.

[Optimystik]

Well, according to more heavy implication it is Evil to torture yourself. Remember the rules for masochism in that book? :smallamused:
***
It most certainly is silly, and the motivation of WotC is quite transparent.

Again, this is the aversion to squicky behavior previously discussed. BoED unfortunately both contradicts and endorses this view.

It contradicts it from the standpoint of Good - your actions must benefit another (without expecting compensation) to be truly Good - so why then is it possible to be Evil without actually hurting another?

Taking drugs by yourself, and torturing yourself, only hurt you - therefore, should not be Evil.

But then it goes on to endorse the viewpoint, by exalting ascetic behavior - even if nobody else is around to be inspired by your example.

So eating poorly and being fat is Evil, while starving yourself and being thin is Good - even if you're alone. Not the most enlightened of viewpoints, and a source of substantial frustration on my part. Nevertheless, I'm not about to throw the good out with the bad when reading these sources.


The bottom line, as far as the OP is concerned, is that BoVD has good rules on drug use. He doesn't have to use the obviously questionable ones like Agony. He can even take those rules as a base, and homebrew his own.

[magic9mushroom]

Again, this is the aversion to squicky behavior previously discussed. BoED unfortunately both contradicts and endorses this view.

It contradicts it from the standpoint of Good - your actions must benefit another (without expecting compensation) to be truly Good - so why then is it possible to be Evil without actually hurting another?

Taking drugs by yourself, and torturing yourself, only hurt you - therefore, should not be Evil.

But then it goes on to endorse the viewpoint, by exalting ascetic behavior - even if nobody else is around to be inspired by your example.

So eating poorly and being fat is Evil, while starving yourself and being thin is Good - even if you're alone. Not the most enlightened of viewpoints, and a source of substantial frustration on my part. Nevertheless, I'm not about to throw the good out with the bad when reading these sources.


The bottom line, as far as the OP is concerned, is that BoVD has good rules on drug use. He doesn't have to use the obviously questionable ones like Agony. He can even take those rules as a base, and homebrew his own.

Well, as I said, it's obvious why the rules are that way. The ultimate metagame you might say.

[Optimystik]

Well, as I said, it's obvious why the rules are that way. The ultimate metagame you might say.

You mean Concerned Mother? The overdeity that can even boss Ao around? :smallamused:

[magic9mushroom]

You mean Concerned Mother? The overdeity that can even boss Ao around? :smallamused:

Precisely.

[Ormur]

If you're heavily addicted that might push you into some evil behavior to get your fix like in the real world but by itself taking mundane drugs shouldn't be evil. It's not terribly responsible but hardly worse than say killing people that threaten you and looting them.

[Raendyn]

I am at the momment playing a campaign where my char is font of drugs.

My arguments here will be:

BovD is not ment to be used by players,its clearly stated somewhere in the1st 3-4 pages.

Have there been any update for 3.5e? Both Bovd &CoRuin are 3.0e books
if i recall correctly.

Also,torturing yourself is not laways masochism.Imagine that you are a slave/prisoner & your captor(let's say wizard) wants 1 dose of liquid pain per day.in the cage there are yourself & 2 14-year old boyz & you harm yourself so the wizard picks you instead of the kido's for the extraction.
Or : Let's say that in order for a world saving spell to work you need liquid pain as extra material component...
Both sounds pretty good acts of self harming.self sacricifing tbh.

Lastly let's say that you need a drug from CoRuin (the 1 that in creases DC) in order to have a chance agains the dicator-evil-cleric who you just chalenged to a duel 1v1 in order to save the vilage w/o risking inosent live's(isn't that a good act?):smallredface:

things are not black & white here.same goes for executions.
& my char uses a lvl 2(maybe 3) spell from BovD to create drugs from water/wood/etc & then he sells them.thats evil cause he knows he harms ppl for personal gain.
But if some1 was forced to use this spell & then the adiction-resisting 1 & take the drugs for a good reason?

[hamishspence]

BoVD is 3.0- however, CoRuin is 3.5.

BoVD is for DMs to tell when players have committed evil acts- and it does say, that sometimes context is important.

3.0 sources are generally valid for 3.5 (several 3.5 sourcebooks use BoVD content) however some of the classes may need updating- changes to skills, Damage Reduction, etc.

[JoshuaZ]

BoVD is based on middle American values as being absolute standards of morality. Thus, some spells for example are listed as [evil] solely because they have a drug component to them.

Aside from problems with alignment systems in general, use of drugs in a setting where they aren't illegal and aren't harming anyone should arguably be neutral. If a given drug is illegal then its use is chaotic. Only if the drug fundamentally does something bad (like requiring torturing sentient people to make like one drug in BoVD does) should it be necessarily evil. However, if drugs are smuggled or sold by organized crime, then purchasing them is arguably evil as well. It should be setting dependent.

[UglyPanda]

BoVD is based on middle American values as being absolute standards of morality. Thus, some spells for example are listed as [evil] solely because they have a drug component to them.One: Do not bring up middle America as anything but a geographic location or politics. It's against the rules.
Two: Liquid Pain does not have the evil descriptor.
Three: Hell, the spell Addiction does not have the evil descriptor.
Four: There is a spell that renders you immune to drug addiction in the same book.

[hamishspence]

Neither does the Extract Drug spell- the normal way of obtaining several of them- cast spell on a piece of metal- the metal weakens, and you have a does of one of them. Different ones created depending on the objects from which they are being extracted.

Some spells require you to be under the influence of a particular drug to cast them though. And may have the Evil descriptor.

[Akal Saris]

As a sidenote, my poisons guide for 3.5 also has a section for drugs in the 3.5 books at the very end of the guide, for those interested in using them as a buff or whatnot. The section is on using them in 3.5 combat rather than the moral implications though :P

There's one silly trick you can do with one of the drugs, which is taken through the blood and has an overdose effect of death - stab somebody with a blade coated with it twice for a death attack via OD.

Here's the section, cut+pasted (though the original is color-coded).

Drugs

Drugs, first appearing in the Book of Vile Darkness, are similar to poisons, except in 3 ways:

1. They require Craft (Alchemy) to create, but function like poisons, including initial and secondary effects over the period of a minute.
2. They have addictions that come with them, along with a variety of beneficial and damaging effects. For example, a drug might give a +2 bonus to strength for an hour, but deal 4 wisdom damage.
3. If you're hit by the same drug twice within a specific period, you suffer an overdose effect, often quite debilitating.

How to apply them:
Ingested drugs: a mister from DoTU can apply them to a wounded target unless the target succeeds a DC 15 Reflex save, but otherwise these won't apply in combat, so I won't focus on them too much.
Inhaled: Some of these can be bottled and thrown like an inhaled poison - I'll mention it if they can be.
Injury: Only one of these exists, but it's the best out there.


Specific drugs:

Book of Vile Darkness:
Agony (liquid pain): Notable because it's also used as a material component or as a substitute for experience in spells, I believe - but also hard to obtain, requiring a 4th level spell with a 1 day casting time. Anyhow, this is an ingested drug, so might as well move along. The secondary effect is nice for sorcerers and the like though.
Baccaran: Another ingested one, this time with a nice side benefit for clerics who take it.
Devilweed: It's a cigarette (or a joint). You can create it with Minor Creation, but it has no particular combat use for you, though it is dirt cheap and gives a nice little strength buff, so I'd actually smoke them as a melee type and pretend to be Dirty Harry or something.
Luhix: Jackpot! This is an injury drug (Fort DC 25 or -1 to all ability scores), and the overdose effect is death (Fort DC 25). It's expensive, but also made from plant material, so you can make it with Minor Creation.
Mordayn Vapor: Unfortunately, it requires steeping in tea, and the overdose isn't too dangerous either compared with Luhix. However, those that try it immediately want more, which you can create using the Extract Drug spell - so it's not too difficult to get the overdose effect.
Mushroom Powder: Eh, weak buffs and a difficult delivery method along with a weak overdose effect.
Redflower Leaves: Ingested and low DC.
Sannish: The OD effect creates a 3.0 status effect - hrmph. Eh, it's ingested anyhow.
Terran Brandy: It's green alcohol that gives a solid CL buff, but it's expensive and the OD effect is weak. Still, cute idea.
Vodarre: Ingested and a weak DC.

Lords of Darkness:
Haunspeir: Ingested and a weak DC.
Jhuid: same as Devilweed
Kammarth: A contact poison, but only DC 10. Still, 2 hits leaves an opponent paralyzed, and it's moderately cheap too.
Katakuda: Eh, no immediate or OD effects.
Oruighen: Okay, this is actually a very nice poison, not a drug. It's basically Mace. Make a melee touch attack to throw tiny pellets at your opponent to blind him and give -2 to saves, skill checks, and attacks. Very cheap at 20g!
Panaeolo: Ingested and a weak DC. How many of these does the game even need?
Rhul ("Battlewine"): It turns you into a barbarian! Very useful, actually, even if the OD effect is pretty weak.
Sakrash: Ingested and a weak DC. Also weird.
Sezarad Root: Ingested and a weak DC. Also weird, but kinda useful to munch on.
Tekkil: Ingested and a weak DC.
Ziran: Ingested, but a decent DC.

Conclusions: Luhix is the only one worthwhile as a standard poison, though some of the others have other uses.

[Lvl45DM!]

I really dont want a drug based campaign. Its just this one guy, who isnt a stoner in real life or anything, heard the description i gave of druid (hippie) and said, ok so ive got all sorts of herbs and weeds in a kit that helps me cure pain? so i have pot? SWEET!
Its a neutral act as far as im concerned but if he keeps it up theres gonna be long term damage. For now its just kind of a great way to intorduce people to DandD in a humourous way. He got the bad guys bodyguards stoned and actually helped save the party.

[magic9mushroom]

As a sidenote, my poisons guide for 3.5 also has a section for drugs in the 3.5 books at the very end of the guide, for those interested in using them as a buff or whatnot. The section is on using them in 3.5 combat rather than the moral implications though :P

There's one silly trick you can do with one of the drugs, which is taken through the blood and has an overdose effect of death - stab somebody with a blade coated with it twice for a death attack via OD.

Here's the section, cut+pasted (though the original is color-coded).

Drugs

Drugs, first appearing in the Book of Vile Darkness, are similar to poisons, except in 3 ways:

1. They require Craft (Alchemy) to create, but function like poisons, including initial and secondary effects over the period of a minute.
2. They have addictions that come with them, along with a variety of beneficial and damaging effects. For example, a drug might give a +2 bonus to strength for an hour, but deal 4 wisdom damage.
3. If you're hit by the same drug twice within a specific period, you suffer an overdose effect, often quite debilitating.

How to apply them:
Ingested drugs: a mister from DoTU can apply them to a wounded target unless the target succeeds a DC 15 Reflex save, but otherwise these won't apply in combat, so I won't focus on them too much.
Inhaled: Some of these can be bottled and thrown like an inhaled poison - I'll mention it if they can be.
Injury: Only one of these exists, but it's the best out there.


Specific drugs:

Book of Vile Darkness:
Agony (liquid pain): Notable because it's also used as a material component or as a substitute for experience in spells, I believe - but also hard to obtain, requiring a 4th level spell with a 1 day casting time. Anyhow, this is an ingested drug, so might as well move along. The secondary effect is nice for sorcerers and the like though.
Baccaran: Another ingested one, this time with a nice side benefit for clerics who take it.
Devilweed: It's a cigarette (or a joint). You can create it with Minor Creation, but it has no particular combat use for you, though it is dirt cheap and gives a nice little strength buff, so I'd actually smoke them as a melee type and pretend to be Dirty Harry or something.
Luhix: Jackpot! This is an injury drug (Fort DC 25 or -1 to all ability scores), and the overdose effect is death (Fort DC 25). It's expensive, but also made from plant material, so you can make it with Minor Creation.
Mordayn Vapor: Unfortunately, it requires steeping in tea, and the overdose isn't too dangerous either compared with Luhix. However, those that try it immediately want more, which you can create using the Extract Drug spell - so it's not too difficult to get the overdose effect.
Mushroom Powder: Eh, weak buffs and a difficult delivery method along with a weak overdose effect.
Redflower Leaves: Ingested and low DC.
Sannish: The OD effect creates a 3.0 status effect - hrmph. Eh, it's ingested anyhow.
Terran Brandy: It's green alcohol that gives a solid CL buff, but it's expensive and the OD effect is weak. Still, cute idea.
Vodarre: Ingested and a weak DC.

Lords of Darkness:
Haunspeir: Ingested and a weak DC.
Jhuid: same as Devilweed
Kammarth: A contact poison, but only DC 10. Still, 2 hits leaves an opponent paralyzed, and it's moderately cheap too.
Katakuda: Eh, no immediate or OD effects.
Oruighen: Okay, this is actually a very nice poison, not a drug. It's basically Mace. Make a melee touch attack to throw tiny pellets at your opponent to blind him and give -2 to saves, skill checks, and attacks. Very cheap at 20g!
Panaeolo: Ingested and a weak DC. How many of these does the game even need?
Rhul ("Battlewine"): It turns you into a barbarian! Very useful, actually, even if the OD effect is pretty weak.
Sakrash: Ingested and a weak DC. Also weird.
Sezarad Root: Ingested and a weak DC. Also weird, but kinda useful to munch on.
Tekkil: Ingested and a weak DC.
Ziran: Ingested, but a decent DC.

Conclusions: Luhix is the only one worthwhile as a standard poison, though some of the others have other uses.


Link to the original?

[elonin]

Unless there is a dnd source elsewhere I'd just give pot a 13 will save and 1d2 wisdom 1d2 dex and a secondary save of 1d2 wisdom 1d2 dex.

[Lvl45DM!]

Well yes Elonin that would be the easiest, but also its kinda boring for gameplay.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Link to the original?

See his sig or Linky (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)

[SaintRidley]

Perhaps his Goodberry spell should be refluffed as summoning magic mushrooms?

[elonin]

Well yes Elonin that would be the easiest, but also its kinda boring for gameplay.

Guess that is true and if you as the dm want to add some trouble just roll for wandering monsters to take advantage of the pc in their compromised situation.

[Rainbownaga]

The problem I have with the BoVD drug discription is that it's impossible to be an addict for very long without dying.

According to the book, every month in which you are addicted, your addiction raises by one catagory, meaining that even the mildest of drugs are likely to start causing major damage if you miss your hit.

Oh, and you have to time your hits exactly because when the duration drops to 1 day, it is almost impractical to not end up either getting your dose late or getting both within the 24 hour OD range.