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View Full Version : The Voldemort Solution: Making Multiple Phylacteries



Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-03, 08:21 AM
Lord Voldemort in the Harry Potter series had many of the characteristics of a D&D Lich. Sort of. You know what I mean.
He had a bunch of nearly indestructable thingies that he kept bits of his soul in to avoid destruction - sort of like the Lich's Phylactery.

Inspired by this, I was wondering - is there any reason why a lich in D&D can't make multiple Phylacteries, and thus increase his chances of survival?

Obviously, i could just make something up - this is D&D, and I'm a DM - but I'd rather use existing material if there is any.


Is there a core solution?
Is there a splatbook solution?
Has anyone already homebrewed this idea?

(Brushing aside such objections as "Horcruxes are not phylacteries", and other Potter nit-picking, of course.)

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 08:22 AM
Yes- Champions of Ruin has an epic spell allowing a lich to make multiple phylacteries, or possibly split one into multiple objects- either way, enemy must destroy them all.

Aumvor's fragmented phylactery is the name of the spell.

Obrysii
2010-02-03, 08:33 AM
Dry Liches, from Sandstorm, do not have ordinary phylacteries. Instead they split their souls into 8 ceramic jars that have Hardness 20.

Demiliches, from the Epic Level Handbook, have 8 soul gems instead of a single phylactery, in addition to its original phylactery.

Lich Kings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124144), one of my creations, can use the phylacteries of the eight Lich minions it has, in addition to its own phylactery.

So a Dry Demilich King would have 25 phylacteries. :p

Tulio d Bard
2010-02-03, 08:43 AM
Dry Liches, from Sandstorm, do not have ordinary phylacteries. Instead they split their souls into 8 ceramic jars that have Hardness 20.

Demiliches, from the Epic Level Handbook, have 8 soul gems instead of a single phylactery, in addition to its original phylactery.

Lich Kings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124144), one of my creations, can use the phylacteries of the eight Lich minions it has, in addition to its own phylactery.

So a Dry Demilich King would have 25 phylacteries. :p

What's the thing with number eight?

Obrysii
2010-02-03, 08:50 AM
What's the thing with number eight?

No idea. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 08:58 AM
What's the thing with number eight?

It might actually be the number 9 there, if you count the lich itself as being a soul location.

Also, in biblical lore, the number 8 signifies a new beginning. The 8th day is the first day of the new week, Noah was the 8th person to leave the ark after the flood, circumcision was performed on the 8th day etc.

Eloel
2010-02-03, 08:59 AM
No idea. Maybe it's just a coincidence?

It's Acererak playing games on your mind.

There's no mind control, citizen. Go back to your fun.

hamishspence
2010-02-03, 08:59 AM
8 appears to be the signature number (and unlucky number) of Discworld- 8 colours of magic, 8 levels of wizardry- the 8th son of an 8th son will be a wizard, and so on.

AstralFire
2010-02-03, 09:00 AM
The following are common numbers in magic:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13...

SolkaTruesilver
2010-02-03, 09:08 AM
The following are common numbers in magic:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13...

I see what you did there :smallamused:

Emmerask
2010-02-03, 09:30 AM
What's the thing with number eight?

And eight can also be interpreted as the infinity symbol as in will have infinite life.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-03, 12:03 PM
And eight can also be interpreted as the infinity symbol as in will have infinite life.

Only if you, or the numeral, have fallen over.

Thanks for the help, chaps and chapettes! It's good to know I'm not breaking too many rules with my terrible plans to Riddle up my BBEG.

Magnor Criol
2010-02-03, 12:06 PM
Dr. Wily had a thing for 8 robot masters. Perhaps he was a lich. :smalltongue:


So a Dry Demilich King would have 25 phylacteries. :p

What if all of his minions were Dry Liches too?

Arakune
2010-02-03, 12:17 PM
Dr. Wily had a thing for 8 robot masters. Perhaps he was a lich. :smalltongue:



What if all of his minions were Dry Liches too?

Please don't. Now the world have more phylacteries than liches.

valadil
2010-02-03, 12:31 PM
I've always wanted to run a lich with false phylacteries that are identical to the real one. Have the lich use something common, like say, 1gp as his phylactery. Then drop it in a dragon's hoard. Have fun sorting all that gold.

Jarrick
2010-02-03, 12:36 PM
Please don't. Now the world have more phylacteries than liches.

:smallamused:
I think I just had an evilgasm...

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 12:39 PM
I've always wanted to run a lich with false phylacteries that are identical to the real one. Have the lich use something common, like say, 1gp as his phylactery. Then drop it in a dragon's hoard. Have fun sorting all that gold.

I think a coin between 1 and 2 feet across (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) wouldn't be that hard to spot.


Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-03, 12:42 PM
I think a coin between 1 and 2 feet across (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) wouldn't be that hard to spot.An aurorum or riverine tower shield built for a Tiny creature? There aren't that many creatures that would be wielding that in battle, meaning that the chances of its being sundered are slim (even if anybody is able to actually do so).

Eloel
2010-02-03, 12:42 PM
What if all of his minions were Dry Liches too?

That is, brilliant!

26 Demiliches, all phylacteries of the other 26, all on a different plane.

Gotta catch 'em all! In 1d4 days too...

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 12:43 PM
I think a coin between 1 and 2 feet across (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) wouldn't be that hard to spot.

Could we then cast Shrink Item, then undetectable aura on it?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 12:48 PM
Could we then cast Shrink Item, then undetectable aura on it?

Undetectable/Magic Aura yes, Shrink Item no.


You are able to shrink one nonmagical item...


As a magic item, it receives saving throws against magical effects that can affect objects.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 12:51 PM
Hmm, I suppose then, barring finding some other means to shrink it...I'll have to find a common tiny object. It would have been hilarious, though, to see a gold coin expand immensely in combat when a random dispel goes off. Instant crazy hook.

Yknow, corpses are objects. Raise dead isn't too expensive. Could you make tiny creatures your phylacteries? Preferably of a good, incredibly long lived or immortal race.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 01:10 PM
Make a Tiny corpse your phylactery, then raise it? Interesting.

Though he might wonder why he has 40 HP and Hardness 20. :smallwink:

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-03, 01:45 PM
Undetectable/Magic Aura yes, Shrink Item no.Isn't the rule that spells only check for applicability when they're cast, and affect the target afterward even if something renders it inapplicable? Although gained immunities (such as through mind blank) may render the effect null while in...err...effect...?

Mordokai
2010-02-03, 01:52 PM
That is, brilliant!

26 Demiliches, all phylacteries of the other 26, all on a different plane.

Gotta catch 'em all! In 1d4 days too...

Thus beggins the most wacky race of all times...

Awesome idea :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2010-02-03, 02:03 PM
I think a coin between 1 and 2 feet across (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) wouldn't be that hard to spot.

Coin was just an example. If a phylactery has size requirements, use a rock. Put it in an abandoned dwarven mine. The whole point is to hide it in plain site by surrounding it by many, many identical objects.

hewhosaysfish
2010-02-03, 02:03 PM
What's the thing with number eight?

I think they're just trying to one-up Voldemort.

"Only 7? You *****! And you call yourself a Dark Lord!"

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:31 PM
Coin was just an example. If a phylactery has size requirements, use a rock. Put it in an abandoned dwarven mine. The whole point is to hide it in plain site by surrounding it by many, many identical objects.

True, but there are two problems with that:

1) It's still a magical (and very evil) rock;

2) No matter what precautions you take, Legend Lore and Metafaculty can find you out.

Quite simply, it's impossible for a lich to hide his actions completely, due to needing to be level 11+.


Isn't the rule that spells only check for applicability when they're cast, and affect the target afterward even if something renders it inapplicable? Although gained immunities (such as through mind blank may render the effect null while in...err...effect)...?

Not sure what you mean... the rules text is that a phylactery is Tiny, and magical. You could shrink it down below that before making it your phylactery, and even permanency it, but once it becomes a phylactery it will be Tiny again (and immune to further shrinkage.)

Zanatos777
2010-02-03, 02:35 PM
Dry Liches have 5 canopic jars, not 8.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 02:38 PM
True, but there are two problems with that:

1) It's still a magical (and very evil) rock;

2) No matter what precautions you take, Legend Lore and Metafaculty can find you out.

Quite simply, it's impossible for a lich to hide his actions completely, due to needing to be level 11+.
Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm), Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm), Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)
Make 'em permanent. Your rock is now extremely difficult to find.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:50 PM
Undetectable Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm), Magic Aura (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm), Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm)
Make 'em permanent. Your rock is now extremely difficult to find.

Legend Lore. Now I have an image of you casting a bunch of spells on a rock.

Area Dispel where I saw the rock. There it is!

IvanGS
2010-02-03, 02:50 PM
Could a lich PaO his phylactery into a human or <member of his race> that looks highly similar to how he did in life, help it get levels as a wizard, help it become a lich, who would then repeat the process?

Would this result in a lich chain in which you have to kill them all in order to kill the original as well?

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 02:54 PM
Legend Lore. Now I have an image of you casting a bunch of spells on a rock.

Area Dispel where I saw the rock. There it is!
I created the phylactery in my lair. Where I created it, there's another rock that looks similar but is completely mundane. I moved my phylactery into the depths of an abandoned mine, which is filled with all sorts of nasty cave animals. Filled by my completely trusted lieutenant, who achieved that rank post-mortem, since I don't want anyone to know about my phylactery's hiding place.

EDIT: I just checked, and Legend Lore doesn't work that way, according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/legendLore.htm).
Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).
It says nothing about images.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:58 PM
I moved my phylactery into the depths of an abandoned mine

Legend Lore. I see where you moved it.

EDIT: And don't get me started on Metafaculty.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 03:00 PM
Could a lich PaO his phylactery into a human or <member of his race> that looks highly similar to how he did in life, help it get levels as a wizard, help it become a lich, who would then repeat the process?

Would this result in a lich chain in which you have to kill them all in order to kill the original as well?

Can a single object be a phylactery for multiple liches? See also, the dry lich group of liches.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 03:00 PM
Legend Lore. I see where you moved it.

EDIT: And don't get me started on Metafaculty.
I covered Legend Lore already, you've been giving it a higher function than it has.
And I don't know what you mean by Metafaculty.

Obrysii
2010-02-03, 03:01 PM
Dry Liches have 5 canopic jars, not 8.

Really? It's been a long time since I looked at the template.

Randalor
2010-02-03, 03:03 PM
Wait, there's a legend that the Lich cast spells on a bunch of rocks? Your lich must be pretty boring if that's the only legend about him :smallamused:

Plus would Legend Lore actually tell you which dwarven mine he tossed the rock into *easy solution, cast spells on a bunch of rocks, put them in different mines, valleys, gorges, ect*, or just that he put the enchanted stones into dwarven mines?

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-02-03, 03:03 PM
I think a coin between 1 and 2 feet across (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreatu resInCombat) wouldn't be that hard to spot.

Originally Posted by Libris Mortis
Regardless of the phylactery’s form, its game statistics remain the same: size Tiny, hp 40, hardness 20, break DC 40.



Other forms of phylacteries can exist, such as rings, amulets, or similar items.
Those are some pretty frickin’ big rings and amulets.


If a phylactery has size requirements, use a rock.
There is no size requirement Core. It looks to me like the author of Libris Mortis decided the stats for the example box phylactery should apply to all phylacteries.

Interesting point, I believe the example phylactery was likely inspired by Tefillin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tefillin), also called phylacteries. Tiny is pretty big for one of those. Such an object would be Diminutive, or maybe Fine.

valadil
2010-02-03, 03:06 PM
True, but there are two problems with that:

1) It's still a magical (and very evil) rock;

2) No matter what precautions you take, Legend Lore and Metafaculty can find you out.


It is. That immortal lich is gonna have a lot of time to enchant neighboring rocks though.

I'm still not sure Legend Lore would work. I'd say that one's up to the DM. Where can I read Metafaculty?

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 03:06 PM
Wait, there's a legend that the Lich cast spells on a bunch of rocks? Your lich must be pretty boring if that's the only legend about him :smallamused:

Plus would Legend Lore actually tell you which dwarven mine he tossed the rock into *easy solution, cast spells on a bunch of rocks, put them in different mines, valleys, gorges, ect*, or just that he put the enchanted stones into dwarven mines?
My point exactly.
Also, the lich didn't hide it himself, he had his buddy do it, then killed his buddy, all very quiet-like.


It is. That immortal lich is gonna have a lot of time to enchant neighboring rocks though.

I'm still not sure Legend Lore would work. I'd say that one's up to the DM. Where can I read Metafaculty?
Legend Lore tells you legends. Legends are, as a general rule, way crazier than what actually happened.

Riffington
2010-02-03, 03:09 PM
Isn't the rule that spells only check for applicability when they're cast, and affect the target afterward even if something renders it inapplicable?

It's certainly a rule that permits a lot of shenanigans, but I haven't found any actual support for it.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-03, 03:13 PM
Don't bother throwing the rock in a specific location, make it more pebble sized and throw it in the ocean.

Fiery Diamond
2010-02-03, 03:14 PM
I have no idea what metafaculty is, and hope someone will enlighten, but as a DM I would say that Legend Lore would not work unless there actually existed legends about that Lich casting spells on rocks. And if I were the Lich, I wouldn't let others know that I cast spells on rocks. No knowledge, no legend. Therefore, Legend Lore doesn't work. Pretty simple, really.

Calimehter
2010-02-03, 03:18 PM
The MM says that "each lich must make its own phylactery" and must use the Craft Wonderous Item feat to do so. Does that mean that using a pre-existing dead body (for purposes of raising later) would be a no-no per RAW? Or am I reading too much into that, and using a dead body as the 'starting material' for a Wonderous Item would be allowed?

If you can, I can just imagine all the other nifty Wonderous Items one would want to make from dead bodies so that they could be raised later.

"Say, Bob, no need to thank us for having you Raised. You'd do the same for us I'm sure. Now about that extra orifice you've got there . . . well, the party always wanted a Handy Haversack, and it just seemed like a good idea at the time . . . why are you looking at me like that, Bob? Bob?"

JoshuaZ
2010-02-03, 03:18 PM
I have no idea what metafaculty is, and hope someone will enlighten, but as a DM I would say that Legend Lore would not work unless there actually existed legends about that Lich casting spells on rocks. And if I were the Lich, I wouldn't let others know that I cast spells on rocks. No knowledge, no legend. Therefore, Legend Lore doesn't work. Pretty simple, really.

Metafaculty is a very powerful 9th level psionic power. The power is in core psionics and specifically penetrates all non-epic shielding of divination and the like. However, it is only accessible to a specific type of Psion (a Seer) and also takes 1000 xp to use. Moreover, I don't see anything in the text that would obviously let one find the phylactery unless the phylactery is specifically still within the lich's possession.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 03:21 PM
Metafaculty only helps with creatures. You could use it to see the lich itself, but the phylactery is out of view.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 03:51 PM
I covered Legend Lore already, you've been giving it a higher function than it has.

No, I haven't, actually.


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.

Stashing a phylactery counts as a "key deed" no matter which way you slice it.

As for Metafaculty:


Any significant activities or actions the creature has undertaken in the previous 8 hours, including details such as locales traveled through, the names or races of those the creature fought, spells it cast, items it acquired, and items it left behind (including the location of those items)

It's a small window, but will spot the phylactery without fail if used in that window.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 03:52 PM
The place a lich stashes his phylactery counts as a "key deed" no matter which way you slice it.

Nope. Thats a location, not an act. And the act of hiding need not be performed by the lich.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 03:53 PM
Nope. Thats a location, not an act.

See Edit, and the spell specifically says "the place."


And the act of hiding need not be performed by the lich.

So you see who they gave it to. Or better yet, get Lore about the phylactery itself.

Wolfram
2010-02-03, 03:55 PM
It might actually be the number 9 there, if you count the lich itself as being a soul location.

Also, in biblical lore, the number 8 signifies a new beginning. The 8th day is the first day of the new week, Noah was the 8th person to leave the ark after the flood, circumcision was performed on the 8th day etc.

In Judaism, 7 shows the normal and secular (7 days a week. the 7 days it took G-d to create the universe.) 8 is beyond the mundane. That's why, in addition to what you cite above, many Jewish festivals last 8 days- Passover, Chanukah and the days between Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 03:58 PM
You can also use Discern Location. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) Mind Blank beats it... but you can't Blank a phylactery - it's not a creature.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 04:00 PM
As I said, the lich doesn't hide their phylactery. They give it to someone who won't talk about it, who then hides it. When the person gets back, the lich kills them.
All their key deeds are done away from their phylactery's hiding place, and they part ways with their phylactery well past the length of time Metafaculty allows for.
And Legend Lore tells you where they do their key deeds. The lich never needs to enter the mine, or do anything there. Just send someone who they can kill there to hide it. Thus, it's outside of a place where a key deed was preformed.
And someone who they can trust but can kill with no issue in their plans would hardly be legendary, putting them outside the realm of Legend Lore.

EDIT: Also, I already stated that the phylactery has Nondetection, Undetectable Alignment and Magic Aura on it. And you can't assume you've touched it (a requirement for locating objects).

JoshuaZ
2010-02-03, 04:04 PM
You can also use Discern Location. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm) Mind Blank beats it... but you can't Blank a phylactery - it's not a creature.

Discern Location says:


To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.

I don't think the lich needs to worry about people using Discern Location.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:07 PM
So you then know:

A. The phylactery is a rock.

B. It was hidden by your then-trusted Lieutenant, who is long since dead.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:08 PM
As I said, the lich doesn't hide their phylactery. They give it to someone who won't talk about it, who then hides it. When the person gets back, the lich kills them.
All their key deeds are done away from their phylactery's hiding place, and they part ways with their phylactery well past the length of time Metafaculty allows for.
And Legend Lore tells you where they do their key deeds. The lich never needs to enter the mine, or do anything there. Just send someone who they can kill there to hide it. Thus, it's outside of a place where a key deed was preformed.
And someone who they can trust but can kill with no issue in their plans would hardly be legendary, putting them outside the realm of Legend Lore.

EDIT: Also, I already stated that the phylactery has Nondetection, Undetectable Alignment and Magic Aura on it. And you can't assume you've touched it (a requirement for locating objects).

And as I already stated, you can Legend Lore about the phylactery itself - it has a caster level of 11+, therefore you can find it no matter what.


For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

Therefore, all phylacteries are level 11 minimum, making them valid targets for Legend Lore.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if nobody talks about it.


These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:14 PM
So you know say...this dry lich made rocks of all his phylacteries. One of them was chucked in a mine somewhere. One was thrown into an ocean. One is part of a golem, and so forth.

How does this in any way help you? You still have a very large world, with a number of objects out there in very nondescript places and appear to be completely ordinary. It doesn't really solve your problem of locating them all.

Vorpalbob
2010-02-03, 04:16 PM
My friends say this is a bad idea, but don't really know why;

A lich gets a random floating space rock, makes it his phylactery, casts Continency (automatic teleport from it to his hideout) and teleports it to the far reaches of the galaxy.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:17 PM
So you know say...this dry lich made rocks of all his phylacteries. One of them was chucked in a mine somewhere. One was thrown into an ocean. One is part of a golem, and so forth.

How does this in any way help you? You still have a very large world, with a number of objects out there in very nondescript places and appear to be completely ordinary. It doesn't really solve your problem of locating them all.

Focus on one at a time - say, the one in the mine. Legend Lore until you can zero in on it.


If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).

It is different from other "give me a hint" spells - the result gets better each time you cast it, rather than regurgitating the original result.

While the adventurers are out hunting down the lich, have a bard or cleric somewhere do nothing but cast this spell, eat, and sleep. Eventually, he will find everything you need.

Or the Lich will go after your "computer" - so you lay a trap for him.

Unless you find a way of making a level 10 lich, Legend Lore is fullproof - given enough time.


My friends say this is a bad idea, but don't really know why;

A lich gets a random floating space rock, makes it his phylactery, casts Continency (automatic teleport from it to his hideout) and teleports it to the far reaches of the galaxy.

It reaches the Far Realm, and gets eaten by a gruecosmic horror. The lich can make no other ones.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:21 PM
Here's a way to beat it, make a deal with the forces of the far realm, who are powerful enough to defy the rules and do so on a whim. Your Legend lore is foiled.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:22 PM
My friends say this is a bad idea, but don't really know why;

A lich gets a random floating space rock, makes it his phylactery, casts Continency (automatic teleport from it to his hideout) and teleports it to the far reaches of the galaxy.

Probably because when you reappear there, you'll be terribly bored.


No, legend lore does not automatically get better. The clues it gives you may lead you to interesting things, sure, resulting in an eventual gain from recasting it, but it is hardly automatic.

Besides, the lich may not even know where his phylacteries are. In fact, nobody may. It's not a legend then. Generally known or not has nothing to do with it...but if NOBODY knows, it's not a legend.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:27 PM
Unless you find a way of making a level 10 lich, Legend Lore is fullproof - given enough time.

I disagree with even this, but hey, even if this were true...making a phylactery works off caster level. Legend Lore works off character level.

IE, any item that boosts caster level allows you to merrily make it as a level 10 character.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:34 PM
No, legend lore does not automatically get better. The clues it gives you may lead you to interesting things, sure, resulting in an eventual gain from recasting it, but it is hardly automatic.

If a lich has gone to all that trouble to hide its phylactery, do you have anything better to do with your actions than cogitate the universe finding it?


Besides, the lich may not even know where his phylacteries are. In fact, nobody may. It's not a legend then. Generally known or not has nothing to do with it...but if NOBODY knows, it's not a legend.

If nobody knows, that counts as "information which is not generally known."

Call it an imprint on the Astral Plane, a spike in the Ether, whatever - the point is, the spell lets it be located.


I disagree with even this, but hey, even if this were true...making a phylactery works off caster level. Legend Lore works off character level.

IE, any item that boosts caster level allows you to merrily make it as a level 10 character.

The phylactery has a caster level equal to what you had when you made it. Boosting it temporarily to make the phylactery won't help, because it will keep that high caster level even when yours goes back to normal.

The lich will be harder to find, but also less dangerous, if he stays below level 10.


Here's a way to beat it, make a deal with the forces of the far realm, who are powerful enough to defy the rules and do so on a whim. Your Legend lore is foiled.

There's nothing in the text of Legend Lore that says it can be blocked. (Unlike other divinations like COP and Discern Location.)

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:38 PM
If a lich has gone to all that trouble to hide its phylactery, do you have anything better to do with your actions than cogitate the universe finding it?



If nobody knows, that counts as "information which is not generally known."

Call it an imprint on the Astral Plane, a spike in the Ether, whatever - the point is, the spell lets it be located.



The phylactery has a caster level equal to what you had when you made it. Boosting it temporarily to make the phylactery won't help, because it will keep that high caster level even when yours goes back to normal.

The lich will be harder to find, but also less dangerous, if he stays below level 10.



There's nothing in the text of Legend Lore that says it can be blocked. (Unlike other divinations like COP and Discern Location.)

What part of "Can defy the rules and do so on a whim" do you not seem to understand?

Beorn080
2010-02-03, 04:39 PM
What if you had a Dry Demilich King, who had Dry Demilich Kings as minions, with Dry Demilichs as their servants. Would the High King get everyone's phylactery?

Query, if a phylactery is on the astral plane, does it get destroyed?

Also, from what I can tell of legend lore, if you cast it again without doing anything, you still get the same results. The results merely lead to a place where you can then get more information from. Simply spamming Legend Lore won't get you a perfect answer over a few months time.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:39 PM
What part of "Can defy the rules and do so on a whim" do you not seem to understand?

The part where that's not stated anywhere except in your post?


Query, if a phylactery is on the astral plane, does it get destroyed?

Several things that live there can eat it, but I don't think it would spontaneously corrode just being there.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 04:40 PM
The correct way to hide a phylactry is to hide it in a bag of holding. And destroy the bag. You will never ever get it. Ever. Lost forever, mate. And don't try to claim "but then the lich will reappear in nothingness." The lich entry says nothing about where the lich reappears.

Also its always a good idea to place some traps on the phylactry. Like geas. And animate object. And mind blank. Hey what do you know all scrying spells fail. And after 8 hours not even metafacualty will work.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:41 PM
The part where that's not stated anywhere except in your post?



Several things that live there can eat it, but I don't think it would spontaneously corrode just being there.


Here's a way to beat it, make a deal with the forces of the far realm, who are powerful enough to defy the rules and do so on a whim. Your Legend lore is foiled.
Do you see it now?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:44 PM
Do you see it now?


The part where that's not stated anywhere except in your post?


Did you see that?

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:44 PM
If nobody knows, that counts as "information which is not generally known."

Call it an imprint on the Astral Plane, a spike in the Ether, whatever - the point is, the spell lets it be located.

By that definition, legend lore can find out absolutely anything, because everything is somehow related to someone over 11th level.

It entirely ignores the purpose of the spell, which is explicitly to remember legends. Something can be a legend even if say...it was only a local legend, or a legend only known many, many years ago. If nobody knows it at all, or did, then no, it's not a legend.


The phylactery has a caster level equal to what you had when you made it. Boosting it temporarily to make the phylactery won't help, because it will keep that high caster level even when yours goes back to normal.

It will. However, that's irrelevant, as legend lore is keyed to character level, not caster level.


The lich will be harder to find, but also less dangerous, if he stays below level 10.

Character level. He can still advance via level adjustment, templates, hit die, etc. It's not usual, granted, but there are plenty of ways to gain power without gaining levels. Presumably, you chill at the gaining power stage until you feel confident enough to resume the level gaining.


There's nothing in the text of Legend Lore that says it can be blocked. (Unlike other divinations like COP and Commune.)

Specific overrides general. Something that specifically say it overrides it(or all divinations) does so.

As a fun side note, the only items mentioned as allowable by the spell as a target is "the major magic items they wield", when describing characters of level 11+. Who wields a phylactery?

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:45 PM
Did you see that?

The stronger Entities of the Far Realm are so powerful as to be so far beyond the gods as the gods are above a level one commoner. The rules don't apply to something that powerful

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 04:48 PM
And as I already stated, you can Legend Lore about the phylactery itself - it has a caster level of 11+, therefore you can find it no matter what.



Therefore, all phylacteries are level 11 minimum, making them valid targets for Legend Lore.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter if nobody talks about it.
It says nothing about caster level, only CHARACTER LEVEL.
Phylacteries are not characters.
And you would get the information that it's in a mine. Maybe a legend or two of a man who hid a lich's phylactery in an abandoned mine and was killed. After a few castings, you might even find out the general location of the mine. Hell, you might even eventually find the mine.
But then you have to find the rock itself. In a mine.
The lich would have plenty of time to get to you and distract you, kill you, point you in the wrong direction, etc.
In short, Legend Lore won't find the phylactery, it will merely narrow it down to a mine. Maybe even a single tunnel in the mine.

To make it more difficult, the lich could have a bunch of undead miners working there. Fill a few tunnels with rocks. Make more tunnels, and fill more tunnels with rocks. Then, anyone who tries to find the phylactery has to go through thousands of rocks. It'll take a really long time. Time enough for the lich to discover your attempts and kill you. Then have his phylactery moved and repeat the entire process.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:51 PM
The stronger Entities of the Far Realm are so powerful as to be so far beyond the gods as the gods are above a level one commoner. The rules don't apply to something that powerful

A source would be nice.

And why wouldn't those uber-beings squash you and your phylactery for having the temerity to use them as a hiding place anyway?


By that definition, legend lore can find out absolutely anything, because everything is somehow related to someone over 11th level.

Now you're getting it. Great spell, eh? :smallsmile:


It entirely ignores the purpose of the spell, which is explicitly to remember legends.

Except for that "information which was never generally known" clause.

Not "legends which were never generally known." Information.


It will. However, that's irrelevant, as legend lore is keyed to character level, not caster level.

It says "11th level or higher." It doesn't specify character vs. class vs. whatever kind of level.

Items don't have character levels in any event, yet the spell can specifically provide information on items. (See below.) Specific trumps general.


Specific overrides general. Something that specifically say it overrides it(or all divinations) does so.

And what exactly would that overriding thing be?


As a fun side note, the only items mentioned as allowable by the spell as a target is "the major magic items they wield", when describing characters of level 11+. Who wields a phylactery?


Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:52 PM
A source would be nice.

And why wouldn't those uber-beings squash you and your phylactery for having the temerity to use them as a hiding place anyway?



Now you're getting it. Great spell, eh? :smallsmile:



Except for that "information which was never generally known" clause.

Not "legends which were never generally known." Information.



It says "11th level or higher." It doesn't specify character vs. class vs. whatever kind of level.

Items don't have character levels in any event, yet the spell can specifically provide information on items. (See below.) Specific trumps general.



And what exactly would that overriding thing be?

As a fun side note, the only items mentioned as allowable by the spell as a target is "the major magic items they wield", when describing characters of level 11+. Who wields a phylactery?[/QUOTE]
The Same reason the Outer Gods often do things for mortals, you amuse them, thus they do you favors.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 04:53 PM
Let's not forget that every casting takes 2d6 weeks, and costs 250g for components. It also means the caster cannot do jack else during that time.

How expensive is it to hire a level 13 wizard for a few years, hmm?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:54 PM
The Same reason the Outer Gods often do things for mortals, you amuse them, thus they do you favors.

And when a rival one to the one that likes you squashes your phylactery?

Still waiting on that source btw.



How expensive is it to hire a level 13 wizard for a few years, hmm?

Proably a lot cheaper than letting a lich that hates your party run around unchecked because you can't kill it permanently.

(FYI, you can hire bards - much cheaper.)

"I'm useful!"

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:55 PM
And when a rival one to the one that likes you squashes your phylactery?

Still waiting on that source btw.

Father Ilymic is a CR 18 monster and is described as a mere mote of thought given flesh in the elder evils book, thus we can extrapolate that the greater powers in that place are so monstrously and hideously powerful as to be beyond stats.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 04:57 PM
Father Ilymic is a CR 18 monster and is described as a mere mote of thought given flesh in the elder evils book, thus we can extrapolate that the greater powers in that place are so monstrously and hideously powerful as to be beyond stats.

Great. So why does he care about your soul-thingamabobber again? Or keep a god/high level party away from it?

Never mind just accidentally eradicating it with a vagrant sneeze or something.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 04:59 PM
Great. So why does he care about your soul-thingamabobber again? Or keep a god/high level party away from it?

Never mind just accidentally eradicating it with a vagrant sneeze or something.

Gods who dare challenge the powers of the Far realm in their home tend to not come back in one piece, or come back at all. And if the Lich does something funny for mr.waaaghIeatzyoursoulzlawlz he will do things for the Lich.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 05:00 PM
Now you're getting it. Great spell, eh? :smallsmile:

Or perhaps you're using common words in the english language, such as "legends" incorrectly. It only ever claims to allow you to learn legends about an important person, place, or thing.

It then defines an important person, place or thing as "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds."
If it does not fall into those categories, it's not something legend lore will help at all with.



Except for that "information which was never generally known" clause.

Not "legends which were never generally known." Information.

Only if you ignore every other part of that sentence which specifies that the information brought back is a legend.

"When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known."

So, no, it sitll has to be a legend.


It says "11th level or higher." It doesn't specify character vs. class vs. whatever kind of level.

Quoting again for you: "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,”

So no...thats not caster level or anything else. It's the level of the character.


Items don't have character levels in any event, yet the spell can specifically provide information on items. (See below.) Specific trumps general.

Continue reading. It allows you to target the major magic items wielded by those characters. So...that 12th level fighter, you can legend lore his sword.

That's the type of item it allows you to target, and it's the ONLY type of item it lists as being allowable to target.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 05:04 PM
Or perhaps you're using common words in the english language, such as "legends" incorrectly. It only ever claims to allow you to learn legends about an important person, place, or thing.

It then defines an important person, place or thing as "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds."
If it does not fall into those categories, it's not something legend lore will help at all with.

Last time I checked, "information" is a pretty broad category.


Only if you ignore every other part of that sentence which specifies that the information brought back is a legend.

The spell itself defines "legends" - everything related to level 11 and up.



Quoting again for you: "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,”

So no...thats not caster level or anything else. It's the level of the character.

It does not specifically say "character level" there, so other types of levels are not disallowed.

And again, items have no character level.


Continue reading. It allows you to target the major magic items wielded by those characters. So...that 12th level fighter, you can legend lore his sword.

That's the type of item it allows you to target, and it's the ONLY type of item it lists as being allowable to target.

Read the very first sentence: you can explicitly get legends about a thing.

Shhalahr Windrider
2010-02-03, 05:07 PM
As a fun side note, the only items mentioned as allowable by the spell as a target is "the major magic items they wield", when describing characters of level 11+. Who wields a phylactery?

Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsHtoL.html#legend-lore)

The 11th level thing is only a rule of thumb as to what is generally considered legendary and is in no way a limiting factor on what can be targeted by legend lore. A phylactery is vital to a lich’s existence. A phylactery belonging to a legendarily important lich will be legendarily important by extension due to this fact.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-03, 05:10 PM
The book of bad latin mentions that you can't make a second phylactery unless the rules say so.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 05:11 PM
Last time I checked, "information" is a pretty broad category.

Information is not the parent category. It's information as part of a legend.


The spell itself defines "legends" - everything related to level 11 and up.

It doesn't say that. It says "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds."

So no. NOT everything related to them. Merely those specific things.


It does not specifically say "character level" there, so other types of levels are not disallowed.

Level of character == character level. It does not mean "whatever type of level I want it to mean".

If you want it to mean a different type of level, you need to show why it means that type.


And again, items have no character level.

And thus, you can only use it on the major magic items listed as valid targes.


Read the very first sentence: you can explicitly get legends about a thing.

Yes. Things, people, and places. The spell text then describes WHAT things, people, and places are valid targets. You can't simply ignore those restrictions. Im beginning to think this is all a troll.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 05:11 PM
The book of bad latin mentions that you can't make a second phylactery unless the rules say so.

That's why we are using different templates.

Tyndmyr
2010-02-03, 05:13 PM
Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsHtoL.html#legend-lore)

The 11th level thing is only a rule of thumb as to what is generally considered legendary and is in no way a limiting factor on what can be targeted by legend lore. A phylactery is vital to a lich’s existence. A phylactery belonging to a legendarily important lich will be legendarily important by extension due to this fact.

Importance is not mentioned as a criteria for targetting. So while, yes, the phylactery is important to him, it's most certainly not a major magic item that he wields. It's thus not targetable by default.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 05:14 PM
As I stated, Legend Lore isn't enough to find the phylactery, only the mine the phylactery is in.
Finding the phylactery is easily made more difficult by putting a lot of similar rocks in the mine with it. And have undead toiling day and night to create more rocks.
The lich may not know where it is, but neither does anyone else. Have fun digging through rocks for a few months while the lich goes around merrily destroying everything you hold dear because you're trying to destroy his phylactery.

SoD
2010-02-03, 05:18 PM
Quoting again for you: "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,”

So no...thats not caster level or anything else. It's the level of the character.

Am I the only one thinking of an awakened phalactary with 11 levels in Barbarian?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 05:19 PM
Information is not the parent category. It's information as part of a legend.
...
It doesn't say that. It says "characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds."

So no. NOT everything related to them. Merely those specific things.

It is not limited to "those specific things" at all. The spell flat out states that this is a rule of thumb.

That is an inclusive, not exclusive statement.


Level of character == character level. It does not mean "whatever type of level I want it to mean".

If you want it to mean a different type of level, you need to show why it means that type.

And if you want to restrict to the specific term "character level" it needs to say "character level."


Yes. Things, people, and places. The spell text then describes WHAT things, people, and places are valid targets. You can't simply ignore those restrictions. Im beginning to think this is all a troll.

I'm the one trolling? Why would you possibly want a phylactery your players can't find? For the lulz?

I'm sorry they printed a spell that wrecks your 'unbeatable campaign,' but there it is.


As I stated, Legend Lore isn't enough to find the phylactery, only the mine the phylactery is in.
Finding the phylactery is easily made more difficult by putting a lot of similar rocks in the mine with it. And have undead toiling day and night to create more rocks.
The lich may not know where it is, but neither does anyone else. Have fun digging through rocks for a few months while the lich goes around merrily destroying everything you hold dear because you're trying to destroy his phylactery.

Once you're in the mine, cast it again.

And if you can't find the lich's phylactery, why are you wasting time going after the lich again?

Or better yet, your party goes to take on the lich, you park a level 8 bard in the mine to dig for you.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 05:25 PM
Am I the only one thinking of an awakened phalactary with 11 levels in Barbarian?
Win idea.
Or a level 11 Warforged Barbarian used as a phylactery.

Melamoto
2010-02-03, 05:28 PM
Once you're in the mine, cast it again.
Not so!
Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes.By being in the mine, you could gain more accurate legends about the mine itself, but not legends about the Phylactery simply by virtue that that's where the Phylactery is. If that was the case, it would not specifically differentiate between places and items.

And saying that it's "a rule of thumb" means that judgement goes to the DM, who will likely be the one with the lich.


And if you can't find the lich's phylactery, why are you wasting time going after the lich again?

Or better yet, your party goes to take on the lich, you park a level 8 bard in the mine to dig for you.
To be honest, this is all wrong. You guys are doing this all wrong. Legend Lore can indeed be abused to destroy the Phylactery, but not by having a bard dig for it.

Jeez guys, it's fairly simple. A phylactery has 40hp and 20 hardness. Therefore, you Legend Lore the mine, and detonate the mines in a way that deals at least 60 damage to everything in it, which a cave-in probably would cause. The rock is crushed. The end.


Win idea.
Or a level 11 Warforged Barbarian used as a phylactery.
I came up with the idea of a living spellbook who takes levels in Wizard.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 05:30 PM
Once you're in the mine, cast it again.

And if you can't find the lich's phylactery, why are you wasting time going after the lich again?

Or better yet, your party goes to take on the lich, you park a level 8 bard in the mine to dig for you.
But Legend Lore doesn't tell you the location, it tells you legends/legend-ish things about stuff. Don't confuse it with Discern Location and similar things.
Nondetection prevents scrying.
You have to hit EVERY SINGLE ROCK IN THE MINE with (Greater) Dispel Magic. Then check EVERY SINGLE ROCK to see if they're a phylactery.
As for it being beatable... Make a coil gun. Fire it repeatedly at the mine.
Fight amusing Theoretical Optimization of a lich who has time to prepare with amusing Theoretical Optimization that can destroy a planet.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 05:30 PM
Not so!By being in the mine, you could gain more accurate legends about the mine itself, but not legends about the Phylactery simply by virtue that that's where the Phylactery is. If that was the case, it would not specifically differentiate between places and items.

Why would you focus on the mine when you're already in it? Once inside, you would obviously focus on the phylactery itself.


And saying that it's "a rule of thumb" means that judgement goes to the DM, who will likely be the one with the lich.

Well obviously he can use fiat to stop anything you do. Such as withholding information when a spell specifically grants it.


To be honest, this is all wrong. You guys are doing this all wrong. Legend Lore can indeed be abused to destroy the Phylactery, but not by having a bard dig for it.

Jeez guys, it's fairly simple. A phylactery has 40hp and 20 hardness. Therefore, you simply need a powerful character to detonate the mines in a way that deals at least 60 damage to everything in it, which a cave in probably would cause. The rock is crushed. The end.

All he needs is a force chest around it (under a pile of rubble, and packed with mundane rocks) to ruin that plan.


But Legend Lore doesn't tell you the location, it tells you legends/legend-ish things about stuff. Don't confuse it with Discern Location and similar things.

Incorrect. Every casting brings you closer.


It often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time.

Simply focus on the phylactery rather than the mine. (Why would you try to find a mine you've already found, anyway?


Nondetection prevents scrying.
You have to hit EVERY SINGLE ROCK IN THE MINE with (Greater) Dispel Magic. Then check EVERY SINGLE ROCK to see if they're a phylactery.

If the DM keeps LL from working and the alternative is letting a lich run amok for eternity, what would you do? "Gosh, this is so tedious, I'd rather let him destroy all life instead so I can watch tv."

Melamoto
2010-02-03, 05:41 PM
Why would you focus on the mine when you're already in it? Once inside, you would obviously focus on the phylactery itself.The entire point of what I said is that you can't. You cannot specifically focus on the Phylactery for more accurate information unless you have it on hand. If you do not have the Phylactery with you at that very moment, then you may as well be at the bottom of the pits in Baator for all the spell cares.


Well obviously he can use fiat to stop anything you do. Such as withholding information when a spell specifically grants it.Nowhere in the spell does it specifically say that, you're just saying that the fact that there is a "rule of thumb" means that it specifically says that. That does not mean it specifically says that.

Here, let me check just to be sure;

Main Entry: spe·cif·ic
Pronunciation: \spi-ˈsi-fik\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin specificus, from Latin species
Date: circa 1631
1 a : constituting or falling into a specifiable category
b : sharing or being those properties of something that allow it to be referred to a particular category
2 a : restricted to a particular individual, situation, relation, or effect <a disease specific to horses>
b : exerting a distinctive influence (as on a body part or a disease) <specific antibodies>
3 : free from ambiguity : accurate <a specific statement of faith>
4 : of, relating to, or constituting a species and especially a biological species
5 a : being any of various arbitrary physical constants and especially one relating a quantitative attribute to unit mass, volume, or area
b : imposed at a fixed rate per unit (as of weight or count) <specific import duties> — compare ad valoremHmm...nope. I don't see any definition under which it is specifically mentioned.


All he needs is a force chest around it (under a pile of rubble, and packed with mundane rocks) to ruin that plan.
A Force Chest? Wouldn't that be very easy to detect (Before you say it, Nystul's Magic Aura only effects physical objects, which Force Chest is not)? Not to mention the complete waste of time going through all the trouble hiding your Phylactery if you're just going to go back to refresh the chest every 24 hours/level.


Incorrect. Every casting brings you closer.
Not quite. It is incremental based on how close you have achieved. These stages are:

You only know rumours - You get vague information
You know specific details - You get basic information
You have it on hand - You get detailed information

Being physically closer does not help you at all unless you happen to suddenly have the rock in your hand, in which case, why are you casting Legend Lore?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 06:06 PM
"At hand" means "nearby" not "physically in your hand."

The spell specifically grants "information."

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 06:07 PM
Incorrect. Every casting brings you closer.

Simply focus on the phylactery rather than the mine. (Why would you try to find a mine you've already found, anyway?

Each casting brings you closer, but it's a far cry from discern location. It gives you "legends" or similar information about things, possibly detailed. It does NOT give you a guide of how to find something, unless said guide is in a legend.



If the DM keeps LL from working and the alternative is letting a lich run amok for eternity, what would you do? "Gosh, this is so tedious, I'd rather let him destroy all life instead so I can watch tv."
Pummel the lich and repeat as many times as necessary until the phylactery is found.
Or, better yet, Temporal Stasis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm), find the phylactery, destroy it and then kill the lich.
Or just use my previously mentioned coil gun (I've seen a concept for it before, I'll find it if you want) to destroy the mine, then kill the lich.
Or use the coil gun to shot the lich then the mine.

AstralFire
2010-02-03, 06:12 PM
Beat the lich up and keep him encased in an anti-magic field. Drip holy water onto his forehead slowly and constantly. Hire a group of peasants who cannot sing to perform hymns of praise to the local good deity at random intervals of all hours of the day.

Give it enough time, he'll be babbling the phylactery location just to end it all.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 06:19 PM
Beat the lich up and keep him encased in an anti-magic field. Drip holy water onto his forehead slowly and constantly. Hire a group of peasants who cannot sing to perform hymns of praise to the local good deity at random intervals of all hours of the day.

Give it enough time, he'll be babbling the phylactery location just to end it all.
Lich's cannot feel pain. They only have a blunt mechanical approximation of touch. And if he doesn't know where it's at. That's a useless effort. Plus, he'd simply have his Lich lieutenant send in an army of zombies come in an kill everyone.

Melamoto
2010-02-03, 06:26 PM
"At hand" means "nearby" not "physically in your hand."At hand may not necessarily mean in your hand, but it does not mean "nearby" or "in the vicinity". It typically means that you have it in your possession and can focus on it, although that is one of the ambiguities in the spell.


The spell specifically grants "information."Why do you keep pushing this point? Here, from the SRD:

Legend lore brings to your mind legends about an important person, place, or thing. If the person or thing is at hand, or if you are in the place in question, the casting time is only 1d4×10 minutes. If you have only detailed information on the person, place, or thing, the casting time is 1d10 days, and the resulting lore is less complete and specific (though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time). If you know only rumors, the casting time is 2d6 weeks, and the resulting lore is vague and incomplete (though it often directs you to more detailed information, thus allowing a better legend lore result next time).

During the casting, you cannot engage in other than routine activities: eating, sleeping, and so forth. When completed, the divination brings legends (if any) about the person, place, or things to your mind. These may be legends that are still current, legends that have been forgotten, or even information that has never been generally known. If the person, place, or thing is not of legendary importance, you gain no information. As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,” as are the sorts of creatures they contend with, the major magic items they wield, and the places where they perform their key deeds.
There are only 3 uses of the word information in the context of the spell here (I've made sure to highlight them for you). There are 4 uses of the word legends, and 2 of lore. And the given uses of the word "information" refer to what you get from the legends, i.e. information in the same way that a rumour is information. And I'll also say that "information that has never been generally known", does not mean information that has never been known. It means obscure lore, known only by, say, a secret council of the molemen. Not known by only 1 person who is now dead. That is not a legend, in even the most obscure sense.


Lich's cannot feel pain. They only have a blunt mechanical approximation of touch. And if he doesn't know where it's at. That's a useless effort.They cannot feel physical pain as such, but having holy water dripped on your head as an undead should probably cause a lot of pain of supernatural origin. And for a being of pure evil and malevolence, having villagers singing holy songs of praise and goodness would drive you mad soon enough.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 06:32 PM
Each casting brings you closer, but it's a far cry from discern location. It gives you "legends" or similar information about things, possibly detailed. It does NOT give you a guide of how to find something, unless said guide is in a legend.

We've been over this. "Legend" in the context of the spell does not mean "here is an ancient story about X, in rhyming couplets." It means "X is level 11+, so it officially qualifies for cosmic attention."


Pummel the lich and repeat as many times as necessary until the phylactery is found.

That's a losing game. Every time you destroy the lich, he reappears with no loss of XP. But all he has to do is kill one or more of you, and you've lost levels and wealth bringing them back.

His XP can only go up, whereas carelessness or a poorly rolled save can set your team back much further. And even if you win every single encounter with him, none of that helps you find the phylactery.


Or, better yet, Temporal Stasis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/temporalStasis.htm), find the phylactery, destroy it and then kill the lich.

That won't work either. Liches are immune to Temporal Stasis - it requires a fort save and doesn't work on objects.


Or just use my previously mentioned coil gun (I've seen a concept for it before, I'll find it if you want) to destroy the mine, then kill the lich.
Or use the coil gun to shot the lich then the mine.

What in the Realms is a "coil gun?" And how does it help you find a phylactery?


At hand may not necessarily mean in your hand, but it does not mean "nearby" or "in the vicinity". It typically means that you have it in your possession and can focus on it, although that is one of the ambiguities in the spell.

Does it now? The Reincarnate spell also uses "at hand" - are the natural elements of the world in the caster's possession?


Why do you keep pushing this point?

Because you lot keep trying to redefine the word "Information."


Here, from the SRD:

There are only 3 uses of the word information in the context of the spell here (I've made sure to highlight them for you). There are 4 uses of the word legends, and 2 of lore. And the given uses of the word "information" refer to what you get from the legends, i.e. information in the same way that a rumour is information. And I'll also say that "information that has never been generally known", does not mean information that has never been known. It means obscure lore, known only by, say, a secret council of the molemen. Not known by only 1 person who is now dead.

Information that has never been known, has also never been GENERALLY known. All owls are birds.

And I already accounted for the use of the word "legend.' A legend is any being, or anything related to that being, who is 11+.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 06:33 PM
Well obviously he can use fiat to stop anything you do. Such as withholding information when a spell specifically grants it.While techinically correct, the spell does not say it grants information about phylactries. Nor does it specify accurate information, but legends. Which means that if it never was contained in legend its out, if there are false legends you can't tell the differance between the truth and lies. But liches would never spread false rumors of course.

Not only that the phylactry can be protected by trapping them with a mind blank trap. And yes, they can be the target of mind blank if they are intelligent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm). That only costs an extra 122000k. If we want to protect against metafacualty we simply need to buff the caster level to say... 20 something and guess what? The psion won't make the few thousand checks. 'Cause you know mind blank every round.

Edit:

Because you lot keep trying to redefine the word "Information."Legend lore says it often gets you enough information to make better castings, or it often directs you to better information. This does not mean always. Other than that it doesn't say you get better information

Volkov
2010-02-03, 06:36 PM
We've been over this. "Legend" in the context of the spell does not mean "here is an ancient story about X, in rhyming couplets." It means "X is level 11+, so it officially qualifies for cosmic attention."



That's a losing game. Every time you destroy the lich, he reappears with no loss of XP. But all he has to do is kill one or more of you, and you've lost levels and wealth bringing them back.

His XP can only go up, whereas carelessness or a poorly rolled save can set your team back much further. And even if you win every single encounter with him, none of that helps you find the phylactery.



That won't work either. Liches are immune to Temporal Stasis - it requires a fort save and doesn't work on objects.



What in the Realms is a "coil gun?" And how does it help you find a phylactery?



Does it now? The Reincarnate spell also uses "at hand" - are the natural elements of the world in the caster's possession?



Because you lot keep trying to redefine the word "Information."



Information that has never been known, has also never been GENERALLY known. All owls are birds.

And I already accounted for the use of the word "legend.' A legend is any being, or anything related to that being, who is 11+.
One cannot get information that doesn't bloody exist. And if no one knows it, it effectively doesn't exist.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 06:40 PM
While techinically correct, the spell does not say it grants information about phylactries.

All phylacteries are level 11 or higher, by the rules of creating a lich.

It's a rather arbitrary number - my belief is that they designed this spell to track down phylacteries, to counter DM shenanigans like the ones in this thread so far.


Nor does it specify accurate information, but legends. Which means that if it never was contained in legend its out, if there are false legends you can't tell the differance between the truth and lies. But liches would never spread false rumors of course.

A divination specifies if you can receive false information. If it does not, what you see is true, though it may be too vague to help you.

The spell specifically states that "it helps you find the place/thing in question" - falsehoods do the opposite of that.


Not only that the phylactry can be protected by trapping them with a mind blank trap. And yes, they can be the target of intelligent if they are intelligent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm). That only costs an extra 122000k. If we want to protect against metafacualty we simply need to buff the caster level to say... 20 something and guess what? The psion won't make the few thousand checks. 'Cause you know mind blank every round.

Mind Blank only works on creatures, and says nothing about blocking legend lore in any case. (Or rather, Legend Lore says nothing about being blocked by Mind Blank.)

If you need a picture as well, go with Vision.


One cannot get information that doesn't bloody exist. And if no one knows it, it effectively doesn't exist.

The only way for it truly not to exist is for the lich to have not created the item in the first place. The minute he does, reality itself has recorded his every move.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 06:42 PM
All phylacteries are level 11 or higher, by the rules of creating a lich.

It's a rather arbitrary number - my belief is that they designed this spell to track down phylacteries, to counter DM shenanigans like the ones in this thread so far.



A divination specifies if you can receive false information. If it does not, what you see is true, though it may be too vague to help you.

The spell specifically states that "it helps you find the place/thing in question" - falsehoods do the opposite of that.



Mind Blank only works on creatures, and says nothing about blocking legend lore in any case.
And if the Dry Demilich King has a contigency to toss sixty max hit dice Pit fiends at anyone who casts legend lore on any of his phylacterys?

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 06:42 PM
...to counter DM shenanigans...

Isn't that kinda impossible? What with the DMs having utter control as to how the rules work and whatnot?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 06:43 PM
And if the Dry Demilich King has a contigency to toss sixty max hit dice Pit fiends at anyone who casts legend lore on any of his phylacterys?

Legend Lore targets you, not the phylactery.


Isn't that kinda impossible? What with the DMs having utter control as to how the rules work and whatnot?

Well of course, but if your DM is houseruling that spells don't work, clearly you're not meant to beat that lich anyway, and are better off playing XBox or something.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 06:44 PM
Legend Lore targets you, not the phylactery.

Well anyone who dares to cast the spell on anything related to him in any way? Of course that'd mean that he'd be a threat to the planet, if not the universe itself, but anyone who can get that many templates stacked on top of themselves is already a class A threat to reality.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 06:46 PM
If Temporal Stasis doesn't work, use Imprisonment. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/imprisonment.htm)
And a coil gun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_gun) concept was created here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135812&highlight=coil&page=2) using conductor stones from Eberron.
It makes a wonderful boom.

Quietus
2010-02-03, 06:47 PM
I'd like to point out that the spell requires you to know at least RUMORS about it. If there are none to be had, then you get nothing.

Of course, someone COULD start rumors. Then the "information" you would get is exactly what those rumors give. If those rumors are false, you gain false information.


As a DM, however, would I totally screw over someone using Legend Lore? No, it's time consuming to do. I'd make some plot point that entails a time limit - better hope Legend Lore doesn't take too long to cast! - and while I would give you information, I wouldn't spill everything and lead you to the exact correct rock.


Example : A legend lore based off of simple rumors that Johnny the Lich hid his phylactery somewhere with the help of his friend George. I might give "George travelled to places x, y, and z between the time he was given the phylactery and the time he was confirmed dead".

You can then use Legend Lore to get information about each of those places, individually. Say it was "A mausoleum, a negative energy demiplane, a city beneath the waves, and a dwarven mine". Eventually, you'll get to the dwarven mine. If you GO TO THAT MINE, and LL, then you'll get something to do with George entering the mine with something heavy in his pack, and leaving it with nothing there.

Where do you LL from there? I'm not going to give you "The phylactery is a rock", nor will I give you "This is where you find the exact rock". I WILL give plot stuff such as an old map of the mines, which may show passages that have since been abandoned/blocked off. But I'm not going to give you information that doesn't exist in common rumor.

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 06:47 PM
Well of course, but if your DM is houseruling that spells don't work, clearly you're not meant to beat that lich anyway, and are better off playing XBox or something.

I personally would have no problem with him houseruling out something like Legend Lore, which based on what I've heard in this thread is a stupid-broken campaign breaker.

Instantly locating the MacGuffin is boring. Go on an epic quest. Isn't that why you're playing in the first place?

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 06:47 PM
Well anyone who dares to cast the spell on anything related to him in any way? Of course that'd mean that he'd be a threat to the planet, if not the universe itself, but anyone who can get that many templates stacked on top of themselves is already a class A threat to reality.

First of all, that would mean I am related to him (since I am the target of my LL) so I can't even buff myself in the morning without getting furpiled by Pit Fiends.

Second, if your DM is throwing 60 pit fiends at you for trying to find a lich's phylactery, that's a good sign that you're not welcome at his table.


I personally would have no problem with him houseruling out something like Legend Lore, which based on what I've heard in this thread is a stupid-broken campaign breaker.

Well I'd rather, y'know, find the phylactery, since it's really hard to kill a lich for good without knowing where that is and all.

And if your campaign can be ended in 2d6 weeks + 1d10 days + 1d4 X 10 minutes, so what? How much more time did you need, anyway?

Beorn080
2010-02-03, 06:54 PM
And this is why DMs hate non specific divinations spells, IE, every spell that doesn't have detect in its name.

Personally, I would make it in the shape of a dinner plate, and give it to a lord along with thousands of identical dinner plates. Now the PCs have to get in and smash thousands of plates in the lords castle, which will certainly tick him off. Half the plates should contain a steel plate with some form of symbol/exploding runes on both sides. Now you get some real fun. *Smash* "You see a piece of metal in the smashed rubble of the plate with a symbol of insanity on it."

Lamech
2010-02-03, 06:54 PM
All phylacteries are level 11 or higher, by the rules of creating a lich.

It's a rather arbitrary number - my belief is that they designed this spell to track down phylacteries, to counter DM shenanigans like the ones in this thread so far. If that was the point why not specify powerful magic items they use? This does not seem to be the case. One can point to any number of things that happen at level 11, such as geas.


A divination specifies if you can receive false information. If it does not, what you see is true, though it may be too vague to help you.

The spell specifically states that "it helps you find the place/thing in question" - falsehoods do the opposite of that.


though it often provides enough information to help you find the person, place, or thing, thus allowing a better legend lore result next timeIt might help you find something, it does not say will. There is a difference. Often =! always.

And no, divinations do not have to specify that they can reveal false information to do exactly that. Take see invisiblity. Now lets have an invisible wizard who used illusions to disguise himself. Would you argue that see invisiblity would also pierce the illusions? Or perhaps you would argue the wizard would not be seen? The simplest resoulution seems to be that false information is spit out. Not only that one could argue that bring false legends is not revealing false information at all. It is simply revealing information about the legends, and then the wizard can make conclusions from those that may or may not be accurate.




Mind Blank only works on creatures, and says nothing about blocking legend lore in any case. (Or rather, Legend Lore says nothing about being blocked by Mind Blank.)

If you need a picture as well, go with Vision.
gathering by divination spells or effectsErr... yeah it kind of does actually. Seeing as how your gathering information with a divination spell.

And if made intelligent... the hidey hole for the soul kind of is a creature...
Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

Oslecamo
2010-02-03, 06:56 PM
Second, if your DM is throwing 60 pit fiends at you for trying to find a lich's phylactery, that's a good sign that you're not welcome at his table.

The DM isn't throwing 60 pit fiends at you because you're trying to find a lich's phylactery. He's throwing 60 pit fiends at you because your character is clearly a cheesy munchkin who tries to auto-bypass all problems with a single action. Your character probably also believes all monsters auto fail saves and believes he should have infinite money, so why is he scared of just 60 balors? He should be drooling dreaming with the loot he'll get when he takes them down with cloudkill, not even remembering balors are immune to poison and can teleport!:smallwink:

There's this thing called "middle ground". Legend lore doesn't auto give you the location of the phylactry. It will probably give you the information of a dude who heard of a dude who worked for the lich once, so you can go and question him and after solving a lot of clues (and casting a lot of spells, not just one), you finally get to find a phylactry.

Melamoto
2010-02-03, 06:56 PM
Well I'd rather, y'know, find the phylactery, since it's really hard to kill a lich for good without knowing where that is and all.I'd just like to say let's drop this now. The spell is too ambiguous to have any definitive reading, and so it is entirely DM judgement what you get. If the DM says it gives direct information and can give exact locations, then that's what it gives. If the DM says it gives rumours and knowledge of legends, then that's what it gives. It's easy to see that this argument is going absolutely nowhere, based on the fact that there is not enough RAW to reach a clear solution.

Drakevarg
2010-02-03, 06:56 PM
Well I'd rather, y'know, find the phylactery, since it's really hard to kill a lich for good without knowing where that is and all.

And if your campaign can be ended in 2d6 weeks + 1d10 days + 1d4 X 10 minutes, so what? How much more time did you need, anyway?

If the phylactery is impossible to find using non-stupid spells, and there's no way to find it built into the plot, then the campaign is broken and you're absolutely right, just go play XBox.

Alternatively, if the lich is not an Omnicidal Maniac, join forces with him. If he rejects your application in the manner that such beings generally do, well, enjoy Ysgaard.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 07:04 PM
If the phylactery is impossible to find using non-stupid spells, and there's no way to find it built into the plot, then the campaign is broken and you're absolutely right, just go play XBox.

Did you even read the kinds of precautions they were using in this thread? Turning it into a rock, undetectable aura, undetectable alignment, throwing the rock in a mine, putting it on the Astral Plane...

So yeah, stupid times call for stupid measures.


The DM isn't throwing 60 pit fiends at you because you're trying to find a lich's phylactery. He's throwing 60 pit fiends at you because your character is clearly a cheesy munchkin who tries to auto-bypass all problems with a single action. Your character probably also believes all monsters auto fail saves and believes he should have infinite money, so why is he scared of just 60 balors? He should be drooling dreaming with the loot he'll get when he takes them down with cloudkill, not even remembering balors are immune to poison and can teleport!:smallwink:

How the hell is a 12-week spell "munchkinry?" If the DM's campaign has nothing to do or interrupt him for 12 weeks of casting, then the fault is with him, not the player.


There's this thing called "middle ground". Legend lore doesn't auto give you the location of the phylactry. It will probably give you the information of a dude who heard of a dude who worked for the lich once, so you can go and question him and after solving a lot of clues (and casting a lot of spells, not just one), you finally get to find a phylactry.

If you can use that to find it, great. But going to the dude, hearing what he has to say and using the info to Legend Lore again is plainly the intent of the spell. "It leads you to sources of information that ensure a better result next time."


It might help you find something, it does not say will. There is a difference. Often =! always.

All right, what probability would you ascribe? 50% of the time? 60%? 75%? Do you roll on a table? Guess what number the DM is thinking of?

What it doesn't say is "never," so it will work eventually if you have nothing else to try.

And no, divinations do not have to specify that they can reveal false information to do exactly that. Take see invisiblity. Now lets have an invisible wizard who used illusions to disguise himself. Would you argue that see invisiblity would also pierce the illusions?[/QUOTE]

This analogy doesn't even remotely make sense.
See Invisibility will always reveal invisible creatures. It won't lie to you and say "nothing here!" when there is in fact something invisible in front of you.

The illusions bit is incorrect interpretation of what you see, not a failure of the spell - it isn't designed to see through illusions.


Err... yeah it kind of does actually. Seeing as how your gathering information with a divination spell.

And if made intelligent... the hidey hole for the soul kind of is a creature...

Where in the spell description does it mention Mind Blank?

Lamech
2010-02-03, 07:05 PM
On a side note: Assuming the lich knows where the damn thing is one can simply use control undead on the lich.

If the lich doesn't one can: control undead the lich. Get the lich to polymorph himself into say... a human. Dominate him. Geas him. Use programmed amnisia or mind rape or what ever magic you need to convert him to the cause of good, in addition make sure that he thinks being a lich is torturing souls or something to continue to exist. (Bluff) Ressurect him because he now doesn't want to be an undead.

Feed him to a stray barghest. True ressurect him. If he returns to life go to: feed him to a barghest.

Iceforge
2010-02-03, 07:06 PM
Just posting to comment on the entire "legendary lore" debate going on here.

As a GM, I would laugh if a player tried to use that to get information which nobody knew, by citing the "was never generally known" as argumentation.

The intent of the formulation was clearly (as in anyone who is not trying to bend the rules in their favour can see it) formulated as you can recall LEGENDS, even if they was never generally (as in broadly) known, not that you can recall any information, even if not known by anyone.

Oslecamo
2010-02-03, 07:08 PM
With all due respect, if the lich is such a weakling that he allow himself to be dominated, why are you so worried about destroying his phylactry?

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 07:10 PM
Did you even read the kinds of precautions they were using in this thread? Turning it into a rock, undetectable aura, undetectable alignment, throwing the rock in a mine, putting it on the Astral Plane...

So yeah, stupid times call for stupid measures.
Which is why I suggested the coil gun.
The lich WILL go "KA-FRIKKIN'-BOOM!"

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 07:14 PM
As a GM, I would laugh if a player tried to use that to get information which nobody knew, by citing the "was never generally known" as argumentation.

The intent of the formulation was clearly (as in anyone who is not trying to bend the rules in their favour can see it) formulated as you can recall LEGENDS, even if they was never generally (as in broadly) known, not that you can recall any information, even if not known by anyone.

Even using your interpretation, one person knows - the lich himself.

Anyone he gives it to to hide it will also have known, even if he is killed and disposed of later.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 07:15 PM
Even using your interpretation, one person knows - the lich himself.

Anyone he gives it to to hide it will also have known, even if he is killed and disposed of later.

And if he doesn't because he had someone else hide it, then killed him and destroyed his soul?

ZeroNumerous
2010-02-03, 07:15 PM
While the adventurers are out hunting down the lich, have a bard or cleric somewhere do nothing but cast this spell, eat, and sleep. Eventually, he will find everything you need.

Uh, you'd need two people to do that. Legend Lore specifically does not allow you to sleep, eat or drink while casting the spell. This means that if you only know rumors your computer will die due to the 2d6 casting time.


Unless you find a way of making a level 10 lich, Legend Lore is fullproof - given enough time.

Make it on the PEP. Throw it in any random direction at all. Subjective gravity? No landmarks? At 2d6 weeks per cast, you'll definitely die of old age before you find the phylactery.

EDIT:


Even using your interpretation, one person knows - the lich himself.

Anyone he gives it to to hide it will also have known, even if he is killed and disposed of later.

Mindrape.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 07:20 PM
Uh, you'd need two people to do that. Legend Lore specifically does not allow you to sleep, eat or drink while casting the spell. This means that if you only know rumors your computer will die due to the 2d6 casting time.
Yes, it does. Those are routine activities.

During the casting, you cannot engage in other than routine activities: eating, sleeping, and so forth.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 07:21 PM
All right, what probability would you ascribe? 50% of the time? 60%? 75%? Do you roll on a table? Guess what number the DM is thinking of?

What it doesn't say is "never," so it will work eventually if you have nothing else to try.I would say under normal circumstances it will give you valid info or, if has fallen into folk lore possibly some false leads mixed in with the truth. If someone has delibritly taken percautions to keep anyone from knowing and then spread lies? Probably not going to get much good info.

And "X often happens" does not mean "there is a certain chance of you taking this activity and X happening." Example: "One can often buy alcohol in grocery stores". Would you disagree? But, "Lamech's prohabition party's approved grocery store" wouldn't sell you alcohol no matter how many times you tried. In some cases Legend Lore simply won't give you accurate information if the legends are all false. It still doesn't matter how many times you try.

This analogy doesn't even remotely make sense.
See Invisibility will always reveal invisible creatures. It won't lie to you and say "nothing here!" when there is in fact something invisible in front of you.

The illusions bit is incorrect interpretation of what you see, not a failure of the spell - it isn't designed to see through illusions.
And legend lore is designed to find legends. If those legends are wrong then you get bad information if you assume they are fact.



Where in the spell description does it mention Mind Blank?What? Its in mind blank's description! All information gathering divination spells are blocked. End of story.


This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects.
Are you going to tell me mind blank doesn't protect against mind affecting spells next? Mind blank protects against legend lore.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 07:36 PM
And if he doesn't because he had someone else hide it, then killed him and destroyed his soul?

Then it was still known at some point - just not generally known. Natch.


Make it on the PEP. Throw it in any random direction at all. Subjective gravity? No landmarks? At 2d6 weeks per cast, you'll definitely die of old age before you find the phylactery.

Hire a warforged bard. The lich is sparing no expense, why should you?


Mindrape.

He still knew, unless you bribe a deity to Alter Reality.


I would say under normal circumstances it will give you valid info or, if has fallen into folk lore possibly some false leads mixed in with the truth. If someone has delibritly taken percautions to keep anyone from knowing and then spread lies? Probably not going to get much good info.

The spell states it helps you. Relaying false information is not helping.


What? Its in mind blank's description! All information gathering divination spells are blocked. End of story.

Are you going to tell me mind blank doesn't protect against mind affecting spells next? Mind blank protects against legend lore.

Other divinations target their subject. Legend Lore doesn't.

In any case, you can't put additional magical properties into a phylactery - that includes making it an intelligent item.

Volkov
2010-02-03, 07:38 PM
Then it was still known at some point - just not generally known. Natch.



Hire a warforged bard. The lich is sparing no expense, why should you?



He still knew, unless you bribe a deity to Alter Reality.



The spell states it helps you. Relaying false information is not helping.



Other divinations target their subject. Legend Lore doesn't.

In any case, you can't put additional magical properties into a phylactery - that includes making it an intelligent item.
I'm not finished. Then uses wish to erase all knowledge of the location from existence.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 07:46 PM
I'm not finished. Then uses wish to erase all knowledge of the location from existence.

If we're allowing Wish abuse, why wouldn't I just Wish for your phylactery (and nothing else) to appear at my feet?

Volkov
2010-02-03, 07:49 PM
If we're allowing Wish abuse, why wouldn't I just Wish for your phylactery (and nothing else) to appear at my feet?
I wished that wouldn't be possible.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 07:50 PM
I wished that wouldn't be possible.

And I wished to unwish your wish :smalltongue:

And now we're reduced to "you're dead!" "nuh-uh!"

Volkov
2010-02-03, 07:52 PM
And I wished to unwish your wish :smalltongue:

And now we're reduced to "you're dead!" "nuh-uh!"

And I used a reality revision to undo your wish.

Ormur
2010-02-03, 08:42 PM
The problem with the argument that legend lore takes a long time to cast and therefore doesn't break your campaign is that the 7th level version (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vision.htm) of that spell takes very little time, only XP. If legend lore unfailingly lets you know of the phylactery's location given enough castings then Vision makes phylacterys an obstacle that can be solved with few castings of a 7th level spell plus teleport.

I'm also wondering if mind blank wouldn't block legend lore since it specifically blocks all divination (plus wish, miracle and specifically scrying) that tries to gather information on it. The problem is that the target must be a creature but it's doubtfull you can make a creature your phylactery. The lich could however make a tiny sapling it's phylactery, have awaken cast on it so it turns into a creature of the plant type and then cast mind blank on it.

Superglucose
2010-02-03, 08:47 PM
A Harry Potter campaign.

*thinks for a bit*

I could probably make that work. Heavy on the house-rules, but that's ok.

Crafty Cultist
2010-02-03, 08:48 PM
you could go the Sauron route and have your phylactery disgiused as some other magic item.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 09:15 PM
The spell states it helps you. Relaying false information is not helping.The word "help" is under the same sentence that says "often", so in many if not most circumstances one will get helpful information, but not necessarily all.



Other divinations target their subject. Legend Lore doesn't.
I don't accept that argument. It still forces scrying spells to skip over you. If someone used an AoE mind-affecting ablity would you be affected? Regardless if the "legend" only ever existed in the head of the lich "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts." part would still apply. And your hardly protected from such things if your thoughts can be read. No way legend lore can get at something with out it being known by someone at some point in time, which the mind blank will effectivly make the case. Or are you going to tell me legend lore will explain to a wizard how to abuse realitivity and go back through time? Or make a nuke?


In any case, you can't put additional magical properties into a phylactery - that includes making it an intelligent item.Why not?

P.S. I do have one question? Why doesn't the lich just lose it forever in one of the many ways to do that? Here's one: Plane of mirrors. Find all the mirrors, throw the phylactry in, and smash the last mirror. There is no information in the lich entry about where the lich respawns, so it can respawn in some nice and safe location.

Rupturing a bag of holding is slightly less epic, but works too.


Also to the point of the thread: If your not using the libris mortis one is free to say that a lich can make as many hidey-holes-for-the-soul as he cares to create. Even if you are the lich can just make a pre-made replacement along with almost ready clone, and simply return to life for several seconds before becoming a brand new lich.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 10:03 PM
The word "help" is under the same sentence that says "often", so in many if not most circumstances one will get helpful information, but not necessarily all.

So keep casting it until you do. "Often" is still > 50%.


I don't accept that argument. It still forces scrying spells to skip over you.

Scrying spells are different in a number of ways - they have saving throws (LL doesn't), they produce a sensor that can be fooled (LL doesn't) and they don't target the caster (LL does.)


Why not?


A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it.


P.S. I do have one question? Why doesn't the lich just lose it forever in one of the many ways to do that? Here's one: Plane of mirrors. Find all the mirrors, throw the phylactry in, and smash the last mirror. There is no information in the lich entry about where the lich respawns, so it can respawn in some nice and safe location.

Rupturing a bag of holding is slightly less epic, but works too.

Yes, I'm sure a DM can say "you can't find it" in response to any search attempts or Wishes. And a riveting campaign that would be.

KillianHawkeye
2010-02-03, 10:09 PM
I just want to point out that even if the Lich has an underling hide the phylactery in an unknown location and then kills him when he gets back from hiding it, there's still at least one person who knows the location:

Vecna.

As the God of Secrets and a Lich himself, it's basically Vecna's business to know all the secret hiding places of every phylactery anywhere. Of course, getting him to reveal that kind of information is a whole different problem.

Zaydos
2010-02-03, 10:31 PM
Just because it often gives you information doesn't mean that casting Legend Lore multiple times when it fails to give you anything useful the first time will the second. Often > 50%, yes, but it can mean on more than 50% of subjects it will 100% of the time with how the spell is worded. It specifies the information from the spell can change when you have more information not that it does if you don't gain any. As a player I would ask why it didn't work, and if the DM gave me an answer as to how the spell could fail I'd take it as information gained (that it was hidden in such a way that rumors about it never had a chance to exist, for example). As a DM if I decided it didn't work because there weren't legends/rumors I'd say make a knowledge (arcana) check to know why Legend Lore wouldn't work and if they made it point out that if there wasn't rumors/legends to begin with then it wouldn't work (although I'd be more likely to say "All those who have touched it have died, and none now know its location" or some such).

Beorn080
2010-02-03, 10:32 PM
Any divination that is repeatedly cast with no change in circumstance returns the same answer. And the information acquired from that divination doesn't allow you to get more, it lets you get clues that can lead you to the ability to get more. Can't just go "Legend lore bob" Bobs a lich "Legend lore bob the lich" Bob the lich hid 7 magical items that hold his soul "Legend Lore bob the lichs soul thingy's" He hid them here here and here. That just doesn't make sense.

Edit: Ninjad.

krossbow
2010-02-03, 10:43 PM
I liked the harry potter universe rule that a horcrux/phylactery was essentially someone's soul, so splitting it meant you were making it inherently more unstable (and each portion was semi-individual/sapient compared to the other parts).


its a good explanation of why people don't just make a billion phylacteries, and good campaign fodder.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 10:44 PM
Other divinations target their subject. Legend Lore doesn't.


Scrying spells are different in a number of ways - they have saving throws (LL doesn't), they produce a sensor that can be fooled (LL doesn't) and they don't target the caster (LL does.)
I'm sorry, what?

Narazil
2010-02-03, 10:47 PM
Legend Lore obviously wasn't intended to work like this, and probably doesn't.
Legend Lore. Lore on Legends. Not on random acts some unknown lich did at 3 AM near the dwarven mines - Legends. Yes, an 11th level character qualify as "Legendary".. But does it say always? If your Lich has kept out of the public searchlight from day one, he probably isn't exactly legendary.. And no one would care if he threw a stone in a mine.

With Optimystik's interpretation of Legend Lore, we can get all short of crazy shenanigans. Legend Lore: How to kill Ao? - It doesn't target him, he's over 11th level, correct? Totally works. :smallconfused:

Jack_Simth
2010-02-03, 11:05 PM
P.S. I do have one question? Why doesn't the lich just lose it forever in one of the many ways to do that? Here's one: Plane of mirrors. Find all the mirrors, throw the phylactry in, and smash the last mirror. There is no information in the lich entry about where the lich respawns, so it can respawn in some nice and safe location.

Rupturing a bag of holding is slightly less epic, but works too.
Well, it's not exactly RAW, but my table rules include undead needing a source of negative energy (similar to how a living critter needs food). For a Lich, that's his phylactery, so he has to keep it accessible enough that he can get to it on a daily basis ("natural" undead are supplied by the leftover emanations of whatever caused the problem area, controlled undead (Rebuke, the Animate Dead spell) are fed by their creator (hence the control limit), and most free-willed undead get their energy by leeching off the living (spectres, wraiths, wights, ghouls, vampires, and so on) although they can also feed on local energies if available.

absolmorph
2010-02-03, 11:08 PM
Legend Lore obviously wasn't intended to work like this, and probably doesn't.
Legend Lore. Lore on Legends. Not on random acts some unknown lich did at 3 AM near the dwarven mines - Legends. Yes, an 11th level character qualify as "Legendary".. But does it say always? If your Lich has kept out of the public searchlight from day one, he probably isn't exactly legendary.. And no one would care if he threw a stone in a mine.

With Optimystik's interpretation of Legend Lore, we can get all short of crazy shenanigans. Legend Lore: How to kill Ao? - It doesn't target him, he's over 11th level, correct? Totally works. :smallconfused:
Optimystik's interpretation is RAW. Technically.
He's changed whether or not it targets something (as shown in my last post) and claimed it gives information rather than legends (technically, it does both, since legends are a specific form of information).
And a level 11 character would, at the least, probably have rumors floating around about them. A level 11 lich would practically be guaranteed to have a few rumors floating around.
As for putting the stone in the mine, a legend may claim it's some really shiny thing. People like those, and it sounds cooler than "an enchanted rock".

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 11:11 PM
Any divination that is repeatedly cast with no change in circumstance returns the same answer. And the information acquired from that divination doesn't allow you to get more, it lets you get clues that can lead you to the ability to get more. Can't just go "Legend lore bob" Bobs a lich "Legend lore bob the lich" Bob the lich hid 7 magical items that hold his soul "Legend Lore bob the lichs soul thingy's" He hid them here here and here. That just doesn't make sense.

Except that's exactly what the spell does.


Yes, an 11th level character qualify as "Legendary".. But does it say always?

*facepalm*

Narazil
2010-02-03, 11:11 PM
Optimystik's interpretation is RAW. Technically.
He's changed whether or not it targets something (as shown in my last post) and claimed it gives information rather than legends (technically, it does both, since legends are a specific form of information).
And a level 11 character would, at the least, probably have rumors floating around about them. A level 11 lich would practically be guaranteed to have a few rumors floating around.
As for putting the stone in the mine, a legend may claim it's some really shiny thing. People like those, and it sounds cooler than "an enchanted rock".
We are well within "Drowning = Healing" RAW land for this.


Wait. It brings you legends on a subject - it doesn't create them? As in, it brings you currently existing legends on a subject?
I'm pretty sure there are no sung legends on the Invisible Lich sneaking of at 3 in the morning.


As a rule of thumb, characters who are 11th level and higher are “legendary,”

Rule of thumb is not always. It's probably meant for grandeur groups with Bards singing their every deed.


*facepalm*

And that is how you fare in a mature conversation. Sigh.

DarklingPerhaps
2010-02-03, 11:29 PM
I don't think Legend Lore would be able to find the phylactery. But it probably would give you a story about how the lich killed his trusted minion after the minion did something for him. And then a speak with dead might be able to find out some more information. Then once you were in the mine maybe true seeing or something throughout it.

It might make a good quest if your players would primarily casters who enjoyed the challenge of trying to find the right spells for the right tasks. Otherwise I probably wouldn't use it against my players.

Lamech
2010-02-03, 11:49 PM
So keep casting it until you do. "Often" is still > 50%.
That doesn't mean its just a random chance that is the same for every situation. For some situations, it may give you a mix of falsehoods and truths, for some it may give you great info, for some it may be next to useless.



Scrying spells are different in a number of ways - they have saving throws (LL doesn't), they produce a sensor that can be fooled (LL doesn't) and they don't target the caster (LL does.)Err... no? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneeye.htm); sort of, arcane eye gives you visual information, nothing about it being fooled, kind of like legend lore gives you legends nothing about it being false; some scrying spells lack targets, so whats your point?

I can certainly see this argument if say, mind blank only stopped spells that directly targeted the the protected person. But it doesn't make any exception like that. It specifically states that it protects against a scrying spell that DOES NOT target the protected person. Arcane eye is the example, it doesn't even have a target. In addition arcane eye doesn't directly gather information about the protected person (examines light), yet mind blank still stops said information gathering.

Of course the obvious counter here is "only applies to scrying spells", but "The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts." doesn't provide an exception for spells or devices that don't target the protected person. In fact devices that attempt to do that wouldn't even have targets or saving throws. Are you arguing that something counts as a legend even if no one ever knew about it ever? 'Cause that breaks the game.


Yes, I'm sure a DM can say "you can't find it" in response to any search attempts or Wishes. And a riveting campaign that would be.
The plane of mirrors would be "you can't get to it". Or "go find a plot token to get into the plane of mirrors to smash the defenseless magic toy." Bag of holding would hopefully be "go find a plot token to keep a lich dead"


Originally Posted by Libris Mortis
A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it.
Hmm... wasn't looking through that book. That is unfortunate. Can still make it into say... a zombie. And then plop the zombie on a mind blank trap.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 01:02 AM
And that is how you fare in a mature conversation. Sigh.


We are well within "Drowning = Healing" RAW land for this.


Yes, an 11th level character qualify as "Legendary".. But does it say always?

Irony.


I don't think Legend Lore would be able to
find the phylactery. But it probably would give you a story about how the lich killed his trusted minion after the minion did something for him. And then a speak with dead might be able to find out some more information. Then once you were in the mine maybe true seeing or something throughout it.

It might make a good quest if your players would primarily casters who enjoyed the challenge of trying to find the right spells for the right tasks. Otherwise I probably wouldn't use it against my players.

For the record, this is really how I would use the spell. But if a DM is going to pull the shenanigans in this thread - turning the phylactery into a lump of coal/rock and tossing it into a featureless mine in the EPoE/PEP/AP, then I'm well within my rights to break out the 2d6 weeks munchkinry in response.

And as I said before - if the GM's campaign isn't getting anywhere in the extreme amount of time it takes to cast this thing... what the hell is he doing?

And of course, Vision neatly gets around all the "legends are not information" lawyering that has been cropping up here as well. It explicitly gives you a picture, not fairytales or exposition.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-04, 03:53 AM
Um - all this Legend Lore chat is getting away from the point of the OP.

Finding one phylactery is tough, as you have to be relatively high level to cast the necessary Divinations - then get past all the defences.
More than one phylactery is going to be proportionally harder.
Each phylactery is going to have alarms and contingent spells on it.

That was why I asked if there were rules for making more than one. I already know how I'm going to hide them, and what the PCs will need to do to find them.

Lamech
2010-02-04, 04:14 AM
The Libris mortis says the lich isn't supposed to have more than one. The lich could have some set up stashed around to ressurect him if he dies, sitting next to a pre-made back-up, so he can ressurect himself and become a lich again if his first one is broken. There are several lich varieties with several. There is an epic spell to get many.

If you don't care what libris mortis says just give the lich as many as you feel like. It could also be some strange variety of lich that got some copies. Or it could have some personally research spell to get several copies. If you want the lich to have several hidey-holes it can.

lord_khaine
2010-02-04, 04:19 AM
For the record, this is really how I would use the spell. But if a DM is going to pull the shenanigans in this thread - turning the phylactery into a lump of coal/rock and tossing it into a featureless mine in the EPoE/PEP/AP, then I'm well within my rights to break out the 2d6 weeks munchkinry in response.



I agree a 100% with both this post and the one it was made in responce to.


Hmm... wasn't looking through that book. That is unfortunate. Can still make it into say... a zombie. And then plop the zombie on a mind blank trap.
i would say being a zombie is additional magical properties.


And that is how you fare in a mature conversation. Sigh.

Like this responce is any better?

Also this is quickly getting to the point where it would be easyer to just find a way to destroy the lich without messing around with his phylactery, to start with i recall 1 undead hunter prestice class being able to do so, and even if you fail in finding such a guy you can allways use PAO to turn the lich into a statue, and then see how well you can hide it.

Schylerwalker
2010-02-04, 04:44 AM
Could you make a 10th level lich via a Ring of Arcane Might?

Lamech
2010-02-04, 05:58 AM
i would say being a zombie is additional magical properties.

No? Animate undead is instantaneous. And zombies don't stop in anti-magic fields. I'm having a hard time seeing where this zombie=magical comes from.

lord_khaine
2010-02-04, 06:05 AM
No? Animate undead is instantaneous. And zombies don't stop in anti-magic fields. I'm having a hard time seeing where this zombie=magical comes from.

And im having a hard time seeing how the heck you make your Phylactery a zombie to start with.

Lamech
2010-02-04, 06:23 AM
Make the phylactery out of a tiny corspe. Cast animate dead on your phylactery/tiny corspe. Congrats you know have a undead phylactery.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 06:52 AM
Could you make a 10th level lich via a Ring of Arcane Might?

No, because the CL bonus applies only to casting spells.

Even if it did raise your CL for all purposes, the phylactery itself would still be 11 at creation, and thus legitimate for LL/Vision. Furthermore, you could still follow up on the activities taken by the lich while he was 11, since he would be "legendary" for that duration. Creating his phylactery would definitely be a "key deed."

Oslecamo
2010-02-04, 07:18 AM
Make the phylactery out of a tiny corspe. Cast animate dead on your phylactery/tiny corspe. Congrats you know have a undead phylactery.

Correction, you just have an undead, since animate dead strips the corpse of all non-offensive qualities, and I'm pretty sure being a phylactry counts as non-offensive. You just destroyed your own phylactry!

Lamech
2010-02-04, 07:28 AM
Correction, you just have an undead, since animate dead strips the corpse of all non-offensive qualities, and I'm pretty sure being a phylactry counts as non-offensive. You just destroyed your own phylactry!
It says that where exactly? That doesn't even make any sense. Your saying it loses all its qualities, like mass, hp, baron number, and charge? Unless your refering to "special qualities". Thats completely differant. But guess what else? Special qualities are Ex Sp or Su things. A magic item is none of those three.

Oslecamo
2010-02-04, 07:50 AM
Special qualities are Ex Sp or Su things. A magic item is none of those three.

Then what is it? I'm pretty sure that being a phylactry isn't a base statistic from a creature.

Actualy, nevermind that. Animate dead only works on mostly intact corpses. If you're arguing that the process of making a phylactry leaves the body mostly intact(and that it still counts as a body at all), then I don't know what to say.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-04, 08:00 AM
If you must have ambulatory phylacteries (which I don't think is a particularly good solution, BTW), why not make several standard phylacteries, and put them inside golems?

Me, I'm all for putting my multiple phylacteries in multiple hostile-to-life demi-planes, crammed full of traps and minions.

Sliver
2010-02-04, 08:55 AM
Then what is it? I'm pretty sure that being a phylactry isn't a base statistic from a creature.

Actualy, nevermind that. Animate dead only works on mostly intact corpses. If you're arguing that the process of making a phylactry leaves the body mostly intact(and that it still counts as a body at all), then I don't know what to say.

PAO won't work? PAO to a corpse and animate it..

Volkov
2010-02-04, 09:44 AM
The Libris mortis says the lich isn't supposed to have more than one. The lich could have some set up stashed around to ressurect him if he dies, sitting next to a pre-made back-up, so he can ressurect himself and become a lich again if his first one is broken. There are several lich varieties with several. There is an epic spell to get many.

If you don't care what libris mortis says just give the lich as many as you feel like. It could also be some strange variety of lich that got some copies. Or it could have some personally research spell to get several copies. If you want the lich to have several hidey-holes it can.

As we said before, Dry Demilich king= tons of Phylacteries.

absolmorph
2010-02-04, 04:39 PM
As we said before, Dry Demilich king= tons of Phylacteries.
Especially with some Dry Demilich King minions.

tahu88810
2010-02-04, 06:49 PM
The MM says that "each lich must make its own phylactery" and must use the Craft Wonderous Item feat to do so. Does that mean that using a pre-existing dead body (for purposes of raising later) would be a no-no per RAW? Or am I reading too much into that, and using a dead body as the 'starting material' for a Wonderous Item would be allowed?

If you can, I can just imagine all the other nifty Wonderous Items one would want to make from dead bodies so that they could be raised later.

"Say, Bob, no need to thank us for having you Raised. You'd do the same for us I'm sure. Now about that extra orifice you've got there . . . well, the party always wanted a Handy Haversack, and it just seemed like a good idea at the time . . . why are you looking at me like that, Bob? Bob?"

Well, I suppose one could sire a child while they were alive. They then would have partially created the dead body. They could then proceed to tack on that 'dead' part later, when they're ready to become a Lich...and voila, they've "made" the dead body. It just isn't a wondrous item, replace the eyes with gems or something.

Obrysii
2010-02-04, 07:45 PM
Especially with some Dry Demilich King minions.

I'll make a template, Emperor Lich, which is a template that goes on the Lich King template (renamed High Lich).

This allows you to dominate High Liches, and use their minion's phylacteries.

Melamoto
2010-02-05, 02:53 AM
I'll make a template, Emperor Lich, which is a template that goes on the Lich King template (renamed High Lich).

This allows you to dominate High Liches, and use their minion's phylacteries.

Then make the God Lich, who dominates Emperor Liches.

Gralamin
2010-02-05, 02:57 AM
Then make the God Lich, who dominates Emperor Liches.

The make the MetaGod Lich who dominates God Lichs. Then make a metametagod lich.... After a sufficient number of Metas, make the Pun-Pun Lich, which dominates all other Liches at the same time. Then a DM Lich which dominates the Pun-Pun Lich, the PCs, and the Players themselves.

You know, maybe following this progression is a bad idea.

Asbestos
2010-02-05, 03:09 AM
Hmm, I suppose then, barring finding some other means to shrink it...I'll have to find a common tiny object. It would have been hilarious, though, to see a gold coin expand immensely in combat when a random dispel goes off. Instant crazy hook.

Yknow, corpses are objects. Raise dead isn't too expensive. Could you make tiny creatures your phylacteries? Preferably of a good, incredibly long lived or immortal race.

No one seems to have much to say about this... is this possible? I mean, once raised they stop being an 'object' but does that mean they are no longer a phylactery too?

lord_khaine
2010-02-05, 03:31 AM
Make the phylactery out of a tiny corspe. Cast animate dead on your phylactery/tiny corspe. Congrats you know have a undead phylactery.

Well, its not like there are anything in the rules that support making a corpse your phylacteria, or that says its still a corpse after you are done with it.

absolmorph
2010-02-05, 03:54 AM
The make the MetaGod Lich who dominates God Lichs. Then make a metametagod lich.... After a sufficient number of Metas, make the Pun-Pun Lich, which dominates all other Liches at the same time. Then a DM Lich which dominates the Pun-Pun Lich, the PCs, and the Players themselves.

You know, maybe following this progression is a bad idea.
AND THEY'RE ALL PHYLACTERIES!
And they take 1d4 rounds to regenerate rather than 1d4 days!
We should probably stop now. This is getting ridi-
Scratch that, as soon as Dry Demilich King Liches with Dry Demilich minions were mentioned it got ridiculous.

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-02-05, 05:11 AM
Yeah, I had my answer in the first reply.

Thanks everyone.

Asbestos
2010-02-05, 01:04 PM
Well, its not like there are anything in the rules that support making a corpse your phylacteria, or that says its still a corpse after you are done with it.
Except that a tiny corpse is a tiny non-magical object... exactly what is required to make a phylactery!



Maybe this creates some weird undead?