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Grushvak
2010-02-03, 12:49 PM
The people I play with love their melee fighters. Their idea of a good time is standing toe to toe with an opponent and depleting their health before they run out themselves. Bluff, Diplomacy, infiltration, strategy; meh, waste of precious time that would be better spent making attack rolls with large-sized bastard swords and strength 26.

It's all fine. But here I come, playing a Changeling Factotum. A fragile one at that (took Quick trait for greater mobility and rolled rather low on hit die). In a group in which fights are mostly melee-melee-melee. I got over the fact that I won't get to use my social skills (Bluff, Disguise, Diplomacy) too often, and most of the campaign will be spent rolling 20-sided dice against monsters. However, my character just isn't tailored for that.

What are my options, aside from committing character suicide and resuming the game with the Shifter Druid I prepared? I can Alter-Self: Troglodyte and rely on inspiration for +int to-hit and damage, but that still makes me a subpar fighter. I can do what I did last game, which is to say delay actions until I see a role that needs filled (interrupting spellcasters, etc.), but it irritates the other players that I'm not "doing enough damage".

Any delicate way of bringing this up at the table?

Kylarra
2010-02-03, 12:59 PM
Knowledge Devotion and ask if you can retrain your social skills into knowledge ones.

Grushvak
2010-02-03, 01:02 PM
Knowledge Devotion and ask if you can retrain your social skills into knowledge ones.

I'm branching into Master of Masks next level for the gladiator mask. If I'm giving up on full Factotum progression, I might as well dip into Archivist or something for domains and devotions. Given, a level is more expensive than a feat, but I'm kind of feat-starved at the moment.

ericgrau
2010-02-03, 01:10 PM
Knowledge skills will let you identify monster weaknesses. Check out the skill rules.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-03, 04:57 PM
Scrap the factotum and play an artificer who will only give the fighter shiny new equips if they agree to play nice and think for a change :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2010-02-03, 05:52 PM
You're a factotum. So...you get spells. Spells like silent image, grease, glitterdust, web, and stinking cloud. I assume you tumble? Like to flank? Got any tanglefoot? Ever consider taking Staggering Strike? Caltrops much? You'll never be a melee dynamo, but that's not what you signed up for. You signed up to be the tricky man. Sounds like you need to bulk up on your tricks.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-04, 12:12 AM
Really, I'd recommend getting permission to rebuild your Char. You're a Factotum, that's pretty nice. Max Int, take Craven, Knowledge Devotion, and Wep Finesse, then spend every other feat on Font of Inspiration. You should be a good glass cannon, and still have enough skills for out of combat utility. not to mention things like UMD, healing, and SPELLS.

Harperfan7
2010-02-04, 12:15 AM
Beat them with sticks?

If you aren't already several levels in, why not multiclass to druid? Is your wisdom low?

Grushvak
2010-02-05, 05:06 PM
You're a factotum. So...you get spells. Spells like silent image, grease, glitterdust, web, and stinking cloud. I assume you tumble? Like to flank? Got any tanglefoot? Ever consider taking Staggering Strike? Caltrops much? You'll never be a melee dynamo, but that's not what you signed up for. You signed up to be the tricky man. Sounds like you need to bulk up on your tricks.

Hmm. You know what, that's really helpful. Sadly, I don't think most of this would come in handy in our game. I'm thinking the half-minotaur player has a deep-rooted passive-aggressive loathing of anything that casts spells. It was common for him to charge through the swarms I created with my warlock, then threaten to kill him afterwards because he received damage.

So yes, he'd charge through the silent image of a wall I cast on the corridor to prevent reinforcements from joining the battle. He'd charge through the Grease'd floor, thinking "he can easily pass the balance check on a 15 or above". He'd charge through the caltrops, he'd stand in the glitterdust, he'd charge right into the web. I have bags of marbles but I'm afraid of using them because I just know he's going to charge through them.

I'm dead serious. If a strategy can be ruined by a large creature charging, it won't be of any use here. I have to assume that every 5 square feet of the battlefield will have, at one moment or another of the encounter, a half-minotaur charging through it. So as it stands, my highest level spell slot (level 2) is entirely dedicated to alter self so I can get +7 NA from troglodyte when we go dungeon-delving.

At this point, I think I'm ranting more than I am actually looking for advice. I know how desperate this situation sounds and let me tell you, it is just as bad as it appears.

Person_Man
2010-02-05, 06:04 PM
I'm branching into Master of Masks next level for the gladiator mask. If I'm giving up on full Factotum progression, I might as well dip into Archivist or something for domains and devotions. Given, a level is more expensive than a feat, but I'm kind of feat-starved at the moment.

Did someone say Factotum/Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526)?

Grushvak
2010-02-05, 08:32 PM
Did someone say Factotum/Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526)?

As a matter of fact, I did! Haberdash was a rather big inspiration for this build, though I took some liberties with the feat selection. So, thanks for writing it. It's an extremely fun build, or at least it could be in a context that allows for more creative use of weapons and abilities than the one I'm playing in.

Still, I'm certain I'll get to use some of the more interesting tricks you outlined. Eventually. Maybe.

Myou
2010-02-06, 06:25 AM
Hmm. You know what, that's really helpful. Sadly, I don't think most of this would come in handy in our game. I'm thinking the half-minotaur player has a deep-rooted passive-aggressive loathing of anything that casts spells. It was common for him to charge through the swarms I created with my warlock, then threaten to kill him afterwards because he received damage.

So yes, he'd charge through the silent image of a wall I cast on the corridor to prevent reinforcements from joining the battle. He'd charge through the Grease'd floor, thinking "he can easily pass the balance check on a 15 or above". He'd charge through the caltrops, he'd stand in the glitterdust, he'd charge right into the web. I have bags of marbles but I'm afraid of using them because I just know he's going to charge through them.

I'm dead serious. If a strategy can be ruined by a large creature charging, it won't be of any use here. I have to assume that every 5 square feet of the battlefield will have, at one moment or another of the encounter, a half-minotaur charging through it. So as it stands, my highest level spell slot (level 2) is entirely dedicated to alter self so I can get +7 NA from troglodyte when we go dungeon-delving.

At this point, I think I'm ranting more than I am actually looking for advice. I know how desperate this situation sounds and let me tell you, it is just as bad as it appears.

....

Why are you not adressing this? It seems like the problem is his behaviour, not your melee abilities.

JeminiZero
2010-02-06, 06:34 AM
Hmm. You know what, that's really helpful. Sadly, I don't think most of this would come in handy in our game. I'm thinking the half-minotaur player has a deep-rooted passive-aggressive loathing of anything that casts spells. It was common for him to charge through the swarms I created with my warlock, then threaten to kill him afterwards because he received damage.

So yes, he'd charge through the silent image of a wall I cast on the corridor to prevent reinforcements from joining the battle. He'd charge through the Grease'd floor, thinking "he can easily pass the balance check on a 15 or above". He'd charge through the caltrops, he'd stand in the glitterdust, he'd charge right into the web. I have bags of marbles but I'm afraid of using them because I just know he's going to charge through them.


Maybe try focusing on spells that have no possibility of friendly fire? Buff spells might also help?

Math_Mage
2010-02-06, 06:39 AM
Why are you not adressing this? It seems like the problem is his behaviour, not your melee abilities.

Buff spells might also help?

QFT. On the one hand, V figured it out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html). On the other hand, V wasn't dealing with teammates who were actively TRYING to sabotage his combat role.

Grushvak
2010-02-06, 12:59 PM
....

Why are you not adressing this? It seems like the problem is his behaviour, not your melee abilities.

I think it's a lost cause. His old character was exactly the same.

I'll try assuming a complete support role. Buff the melee fighters. I have a wand of blur and a wand of mirror image: they'll learn to love that stuff. I'll teach them to rely on me for healing. And if they piss me off (ie: greater cleave the people I'm trying to trick/bluff into helping us), I'll take away these privileges.

As long as they believe I'm contributing nothing to the group (which is dead wrong, I didn't allow a single enemy caster to throw a spell in our last game), they won't let me have my fun.

Myou
2010-02-06, 01:36 PM
I think it's a lost cause. His old character was exactly the same.

I'll try assuming a complete support role. Buff the melee fighters. I have a wand of blur and a wand of mirror image: they'll learn to love that stuff. I'll teach them to rely on me for healing. And if they piss me off (ie: greater cleave the people I'm trying to trick/bluff into helping us), I'll take away these privileges.

As long as they believe I'm contributing nothing to the group (which is dead wrong, I didn't allow a single enemy caster to throw a spell in our last game), they won't let me have my fun.

It sounds like you need to bring this up with them. Is the DM aware? Or does the rest of the group think it's ok to treat you like that? If so, I'd leave now before things inevitably get nasty.