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Frosty
2010-02-03, 02:33 PM
I'm about to run a solo campaign and the player may choose a Spellthief. I like it very much thematically, and I'm sure books like Complete Scoundrel can only enhance it, but I hear that it is weak. Why is the class weak, and what kind of changes can be made to make the class better without multiclass shenanigans and exploits using feats like Master Spellthief? I'm using a lot of the Pathfinder base classes so I'd like to bring the Spellthief up to the level of the PF Rogue at least.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:38 PM
I don't think it's weak. It got low skill points for a skill monkey, and slow sneak attack progression, but the benefits outweigh the costs imo.

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-03, 02:40 PM
The fundamental problem with Spellthief is that they just aren't very good at the thiefing of spells. Their signature ability is nigh unusable against its intended targets due to the vast array of defenses available to mages, as well as its niche application and the general unreliability fundamental in its use.

Starscream
2010-02-03, 02:41 PM
Well, tier 4 is respectable at least. Not necessarily "weak", just not particularly strong.

I think its biggest problem is how MAD it is. You need int, cha, dex, and con. And maybe strength, too. Only wisdom can really be dumped.

Frosty
2010-02-03, 02:47 PM
The fundamental problem with Spellthief is that they just aren't very good at the thiefing of spells. Their signature ability is nigh unusable against its intended targets due to the vast array of defenses available to mages, as well as its niche application and the general unreliability fundamental in its use.

So basically, the Spellthief needs some way of reliably getting past the defenses of a mage or slip under the radar, but they have really nothing that'll defeat Divination?

The Mage Slayer tree going into Pierce Magical Concealment would help, but only if I houserule it so they don't lose Caster Levels...

UglyPanda
2010-02-03, 02:47 PM
Well, tier 4 is respectable at least. Not necessarily "weak", just not particularly strong.I am reiterating this.

The main ability of the Spellthief is rather underpowered. Stealing spells means you cast spells every other turn as opposed to your allies and opponents who cast every turn. Stealing spell-likes is a bit better, since it's effectively a debuff on your opponent, but it's rare that you'll fight an enemy with only one spell-like.

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 02:48 PM
You can get by with less Dex than a Rogue, due to buffs.

Master Spellthief (CS) is basically the fix to the entire class.

dougch
2010-02-03, 02:49 PM
you steal there powers at there caster level so mageslayer i cant honestly be seen as effecting your stolen abilities

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-03, 02:49 PM
The fact that you can't ID what spells your targets know until level 13 kinda hurts too.

Frosty
2010-02-03, 03:03 PM
The fact that you can't ID what spells your targets know until level 13 kinda hurts too.

Or ID buffs. Maybe if they eventually got Greater Arcane Sight...

Gnaeus
2010-02-03, 03:19 PM
I would remove their spells/day table and spells known and replace it with the Duskblade table and spells known mechanic. That would let them be casters at level 1, and eventually let them get level 5 spells.

Since Pathfinder removes assassin casting, you could also add all the assassin class spells to the spellthief class list.

Those 2 changes would crank it up a lot, but wouldn't make it overpowered. Certainly not above tier 3.

Myou
2010-02-03, 03:21 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123236

Longcat
2010-02-03, 03:24 PM
Spellthief is extremely when combined with an arcane caster class, Unseen Seer and Master Spellthief.

On its own, it's kinda meh.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:24 PM
First of all, it's not exactly pathetic, but it's got lots of problems.

MAD hurts. You're a charisma caster, but a dex based fighter who needs Int for skill points and Con just to survive. That's a problem right there.

For skills, you start with 6, but unlike other skill monkeys you can't focus on Int at all (since you've got that harsh MAD, worse than any other skill monkey). You've also got fewer skills available than Rogues.

For sneak attack, you have half that of a Rogue. Ouch.

Your primary shtick is to sneak attack casters and steal their stuff... but Rogues already have a tough time sneak attacking casters, and with your lower stats and terrible sneak attack it's even harder for you to land decent sneak attack hits against them.

You do have casting, which is a saving grace. It's very slow, but it's got a few gems in the list. Unfortunately, you can't really focus on casting (MAD, and how limited it is), but it's helpful. And of course you can do awesome things in parties that involve people who have spell likes, such as Factotums.

In the end, you're a cut rate Factotum or Beguiler. Spellthief was the first magical rogue class, and they worried about it being overpowered enough that it ended up a bit weak (but it's not that terrible). Later magical rogues were made a bit stronger.

JaronK

lsfreak
2010-02-03, 03:28 PM
Obligatory link. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44299)

EDIT: Many tabs makes me open to being ninja'd.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-02-03, 03:31 PM
It's a great one-level dip, to be combined with Master Spellthief, Rogue, and an arcane casting class.

Frosty
2010-02-03, 03:34 PM
I recognize Beguilers and Factota being more powerful (and balanced) in their own right, and in fact they can fill the same niche as the Spellthief (one of Arcane Scoundrel). However, with the flavor and background for this particular solo-campaign, the Spellthief is really the best option. Now I just have to figure out how to buff it while retaining all of its juicy flavor.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:37 PM
I dunno about that guide. Absorb Spell is listed as one of the best abilities a Spellthief has, but I actually list Absorb Spell as part of the problem... many Spellthief abilities sound cool, but don't work.

Absorb Spell first off requires that you save against a spell that targets you. Considering Spellthieves don't have great saves (Will is their only good one, and they have to dump Wisdom... Dex and Con aren't going to be that high due to MAD, and they only get a total of +3 to saves against spells from Spellgrace over 20 levels). So they're unlikely to successfully save in the first place, even assuming they're going to be targetted by a spell. Also, if the spell is too high level, you can't do anything to it... I don't know about you, but when a caster comes at us in the games I've played, he's often a bit higher level than us so the spells that hit us are often higher than what a spellthief could absorb. Even if he's the same level, the spell might be too high... a 7th level Wizard casts 4th level spells, but it takes an 8th level Spellthief to absorb them. Now, assuming the spell is legal to absorb at all, you have to make a level check, class level +1d20 vs Caster Level +10. That's a 50%ish chance to succeed if he's your level.

That's a HUGE number of points where this ability could fail. It's so much, in fact, that when I've played with a Spellthief I've never seen Absorb spell work (mostly because a spellthief is hidden before battle and not a priority target during, so he rarely gets the chance in the first place... but even on the rare occasions where it comes up, the ability has failed for one reason or another.

The guide also doesn't suggest Alter Self, which I always found to be critical (on a class like the Spellthief, you need to take whatever you can get). Nor does it suggest Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment (which are critical, even though they kill your casting).

JaronK

FishAreWet
2010-02-03, 03:39 PM
There is an ACF in Dragon Magizine that I really like.

Lose Trapfinding, drop to 4+ skill points and lose all Sneak Attack except the first one.

Gain Bardic Spellcasting! And you add Spelltheif spells to your spell list.

Mystic Muse
2010-02-03, 03:39 PM
(Obligatory play something else and call it spellthief post)

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:40 PM
I recognize Beguilers and Factota being more powerful (and balanced) in their own right, and in fact they can fill the same niche as the Spellthief (one of Arcane Scoundrel). However, with the flavor and background for this particular solo-campaign, the Spellthief is really the best option. Now I just have to figure out how to buff it while retaining all of its juicy flavor.

You could just make a solid build. Gnome (or Whispergnome) Spellthief 9/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Earth Dreamer 5 with Master Spellthief, Darkstalker, Mindsight and the usual SCM feats is a solid build that's not actually overpowered due to the weaker base casting.

Note that Master Spellthief does NOT stack for purposes of what spells you can store, only what you can steal, so it's important to have at least 9 levels of Spellthief (or 6 with a Major Bloodline) to make sure you can actually have what you steal.

Another option, since this is a solo campaign, is to just gestalt Spellthief with another class. Spellthieves really don't stack up well alone. Why not just gestalt the character with Factotum or Rogue to pump it up a bit? Or even Hexblade?

JaronK

Frosty
2010-02-03, 03:46 PM
I dunno about that guide. Absorb Spell is listed as one of the best abilities a Spellthief has, but I actually list Absorb Spell as part of the problem... many Spellthief abilities sound cool, but don't work.

Absorb Spell first off requires that you save against a spell that targets you. Considering Spellthieves don't have great saves (Will is their only good one, and they have to dump Wisdom... Dex and Con aren't going to be that high due to MAD, and they only get a total of +3 to saves against spells from Spellgrace over 20 levels). So they're unlikely to successfully save in the first place, even assuming they're going to be targetted by a spell. Also, if the spell is too high level, you can't do anything to it... I don't know about you, but when a caster comes at us in the games I've played, he's often a bit higher level than us so the spells that hit us are often higher than what a spellthief could absorb. Even if he's the same level, the spell might be too high... a 7th level Wizard casts 4th level spells, but it takes an 8th level Spellthief to absorb them. Now, assuming the spell is legal to absorb at all, you have to make a level check, class level +1d20 vs Caster Level +10. That's a 50%ish chance to succeed if he's your level.

That's a HUGE number of points where this ability could fail. It's so much, in fact, that when I've played with a Spellthief I've never seen Absorb spell work (mostly because a spellthief is hidden before battle and not a priority target during, so he rarely gets the chance in the first place... but even on the rare occasions where it comes up, the ability has failed for one reason or another.

The guide also doesn't suggest Alter Self, which I always found to be critical (on a class like the Spellthief, you need to take whatever you can get). Nor does it suggest Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment (which are critical, even though they kill your casting).

JaronK

Hence why I will be heavily houseruling this class. I will give the spellthief TWO good saves (probably Reflex and Will), replace Spell-grace with the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance (grants CHA to all saves vs Spells and SLAs). I will either increase the SA progression or make the class full BAB. I will most likely give it Greater Arcane Sight some time, in addition to Nondetection.

Still thinking on what other buffs to give.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 03:58 PM
Hence why I will be heavily houseruling this class. I will give the spellthief TWO good saves (probably Reflex and Will), replace Spell-grace with the Hexblade's Arcane Resistance (grants CHA to all saves vs Spells and SLAs). I will either increase the SA progression or make the class full BAB. I will most likely give it Greater Arcane Sight some time, in addition to Nondetection.

Still thinking on what other buffs to give.

Okay, if you really want to just buff the class instead of gestalting it (which would be simpler), I'd consider the following changes:

Get the Mage Slayer line of feats free without caster level loss, slowly over the course of the levels. This, combined with your other changes, might give them a chance to actually steal from casters.

Make the class Int based in its casting and spell stealing, and get Int to saves, not Cha to saves. That will fix the MAD issue.

Let the Spellthief chose spells each day (like a Factotum) instead of having spells known, but not require a spellbook.

Give the level 13 ability where you know what the caster has much earlier.

Give evasion and mettle.

Combined with the changes you mentioned, that would bring it up to Tier 3 I'd imagine... which is enough to handle solo play.

JaronK

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-03, 04:33 PM
So basically, the Spellthief needs some way of reliably getting past the defenses of a mage or slip under the radar, but they have really nothing that'll defeat Divination?
That, and they have to actually land sneak attacks against a class that can fairly easily gain immunity to sneak attacks. Tossing in a standard action touch to steal spells instead of the sneak attack can go a long way.

Person_Man
2010-02-03, 04:37 PM
Ways to make Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) stronger:

Play like you're Peter Petrelli or Rogue (the X-Man, not the class). "Borrow" spells and spell-like abilities from your party members, and use them intelligently. In particular, a Spellthief with a strong Familiar (for the Share Spells ability) in a party with a Warlock, a Dragonfire Adept, and a couple of casters can be quite potent. There is no reason that you can't play like a Batman Wizard, as long as you have at least one Batman Wizard in your party.

Use UMD (a lot) to fill in any holes not provided for by spells that you can borrow. By mid levels, you should have no trouble getting touch attacks, qualifying for UMD, boosting Skills, improving your defense, etc.

Take the Arcane Strike feat (Comp War). As a FREE action, you can burn a spell to gain an unnamed bonus on all attack and damage rolls for one round. If you have 4 Sneak attacks against a caster, you can use this feat 4 times without spending any resources, and the attack and damage bonuses will stack.

Get a debuff combo, or work with those who do. Level drain, ability drain, Fear effects, etc. All of them will help make your abilities more effective.

I would also add that while Spellthieves are comparatively weak against melee and ranged weapon types, they are comparatively strong against casters. And I don't know about you, but in the vast majority of games I play in, the only time I ever die it's because of a caster. So when I make a build, I don't worry too much about my damage per round output, or my AC, or similar considerations (I'm not saying they shouldn't be decent - there's just a diminishing return for optimizing them beyond a certain point). I worry about how I'm going to be be screwed by casters, and what I can do to screw them back.

The only houserule I think the Spellthief needs is the ability to know their target's spell list at first level (instead of 13th level) once they make a Sneak Attack, so that they can realistically choose which spell to steal (instead of the stupid guess a spell and then choose one at random if it doesn't exist mechanic). And this ability should extend to spell-like abilities, spells in effect, and everything else that they can steal. With that in place, I think they become a solid Tier 3 class if you otherwise know how to play them. Shifting their abilities to Int instead of Cha is also helpful - but keep in mind that Cha effects UMD, social Skills, and Fear effects, which are all useful for a Spellthief.

Frosty
2010-02-03, 04:40 PM
The player wishes to keep CHA to casting. In that case, should I give 8+Int skills per level?

Oh, and I'm posting my list of house-rules, since any changes I make to Spellthief should really be considered in context with all the other rules I have. I combine many skills so it should make things easier even for a non-INT-centric character. Some houserules may not have a direct impact here but it's the list I use for all of my games.

1) Spontaneous Casters do not increase their casting time when applying metamagic on the fly.

2) Some skills have been combined! Spot + Listen is now Perception (WIS). Open locks + Disable Device = Disable Device (INT). Tumble + Balance + Escape Artist = Acrobatics (DEX). Swim + Jump + Climb = Athletics (STR). Hide + Move Silently = Stealth (Dex). Perception and Sense Motive are now class skills for EVERYONE.

2.5) Use Rope is now a straight Dex check. Diplomacy has been radically altered. It now only receives a synergy from Sense Motive, and it is used to make a deal with someone. The internal mechanics are different from the ones Rich Burlew uses, however.

3) The Concentration check to cast spells Defensively or while Entangled has been increased to 15 + 2x spell level. The check to keep a spell due to taking damage is unchanged at 10 + Damage taken (1/2 if damage is continuous or taken earlier in your turn *before* you started casting the spell) + Spell Level

4) In order to emulate the fact that physical warriors must spend a full-round in order to do their most devastating attacks, full spellcasters (those that get 9th level spells) must now also spend a full-round action to cast spells from their 2 highest available levels. This does not apply to spells that take Swift or Immediate actions, or to spells of 3rd level or below. So for example, T'Pol, a 12th level kobold sorcerer, is capable of casting spells level 1 thru 6. The casting times for his levels 1-4 spells are normal. The casting times for his levels 5 and 6 spells are increased to full-round actions. You may not apply the Quicken metamagic feat to your top 2 levels of spells.

5) No metamagic reducers. So things like Arcane Thesis, Divine Metamagic, etc are all out. Feel free to purchase metmamagic rods however. Also the Sudden line of metamagic feats is still available.

6) Using most of the Advanced Combat rules from Races of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_o...dvanced_Combat) except for Power Attack and Expertise. Those must be taken as feats and work as before. So yes, this means iterative attacks are now ALL made at -5

7) To reflect the combat changes, certain feats have to be updated. For example, Improved Trip gives you a +2 to your effective BAB when determining who has The Edge in a maneuver, in addition to giving you a +2 to your Trip check (improves to +4 upon reaching actual BAB 10). Improved Bullrush, Disarm, Grapple, etc all follow the same pattern of +2 BAB to determine Edge, and a +2 (+4) bonus on the check itself.

8) Manyshot (and its big brother Greater Manyshot) has the following changes: When shooting 2 arrows, -3 to the attack roll(s). 3 arrows, -4. 4 arrows, -5

9) Feats are granted at all ODD levels (1, 3, 5, 7 etc) instead of every 3 levels.

10) All classes that have 2+Int mod skill pts per level now has 4+Int mod instead.

11) Alignment-detecting spells like Detect Evil and Detect Good do not exist in this game.

12) Dragon Shamans have 1/1 BAB instead of 3/4.

13) Glibness only gives a +15 bonus and the duration is now 5 min./CL instead of 10 per.

14) Skill Focus now also permanently makes the selected skill a Class Skill for you. The bonus of Skill Focus also increases to +6 when you reach 10 HD.

15) Abrupt Jaunt has been changed to a Swift action instead of an immediate action.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 04:57 PM
Ways to make Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) stronger:

Play like you're Peter Petrelli or Rogue (the X-Man, not the class). "Borrow" spells and spell-like abilities from your party members, and use them intelligently. In particular, a Spellthief with a strong Familiar (for the Share Spells ability) in a party with a Warlock, a Dragonfire Adept, and a couple of casters can be quite potent. There is no reason that you can't play like a Batman Wizard, as long as you have at least one Batman Wizard in your party.

That would work great, except you don't borrow spells. You steal them, and then they are gone. This means that when you take from the party Wizard, you actually do weaken him. If you're going to do that, you'd be better off just playing as a Wizard. It does work with Spell Likes, which is why Spellthieves are so good with Factotums.


Use UMD (a lot) to fill in any holes not provided for by spells that you can borrow. By mid levels, you should have no trouble getting touch attacks, qualifying for UMD, boosting Skills, improving your defense, etc.

Eh, UMD is only good if the DM hands you good stuff to use it with. It's hardly reliable. You certainly aren't going to be running around using Wands to make your defense awesome (though Alter Self is good for that).


Take the Arcane Strike feat (Comp War). As a FREE action, you can burn a spell to gain an unnamed bonus on all attack and damage rolls for one round. If you have 4 Sneak attacks against a caster, you can use this feat 4 times without spending any resources, and the attack and damage bonuses will stack.

A solid choice once you start stealing from the caster. The problem with Spellthieves, however, is in their difficulties in doing that in the first place.


I would also add that while Spellthieves are comparatively weak against melee and ranged weapon types, they are comparatively strong against casters. And I don't know about you, but in the vast majority of games I play in, the only time I ever die it's because of a caster. So when I make a build, I don't worry too much about my damage per round output, or my AC, or similar considerations (I'm not saying they shouldn't be decent - there's just a diminishing return for optimizing them beyond a certain point). I worry about how I'm going to be be screwed by casters, and what I can do to screw them back.

I think the problem with spellthieves is that they have special abilities for hitting casters, but they're not nearly good enough at it. It's like having a housecat evolved with special abilities that make it better at hunting elephants, like longer and sharper claws to penetrate their hide. At the end of the day, you still suck at hunting elephants.

@Frosty: If he wants Cha casting, then definitely give him 8+Int skills. Even with your changes he'll still need them. And give cha to saves as well. You might even consider letting him have some Shadow Hand manuevers. Shadow Garrote, Shadow Jaunt, and Cloak of Shadows would all be extremely useful to a spellthief.

JaronK

Optimystik
2010-02-03, 05:01 PM
Eh, UMD is only good if the DM hands you good stuff to use it with. It's hardly reliable. You certainly aren't going to be running around using Wands to make your defense awesome (though Alter Self is good for that).

Ah, but if he doesn't, a Spellthief will be more useful than a Rogue. Still not as useful as a Factotum or Beguiler, but at least he'll have some punch of his own.


I think the problem with spellthieves is that they have special abilities for hitting casters, but they're not nearly good enough at it. It's like having a housecat evolved with special abilities that make it better at hunting elephants, like longer and sharper claws to penetrate their hide. At the end of the day, you still suck at hunting elephants.

I kind of like this analogy.

Anyway, my fix is simply to take them into Unseen Seer with Master Spellthief and a real casting class, followed by Spellwarp Sniper and Arcane Trickster. More sneak attack, better spells, and you can use your rays to steal spells which fuel your rays which you can use to...

Frosty
2010-02-03, 05:01 PM
What do you think of the rest of my houserules? And yes, Shadow Blade and Shadow Jaunt and Assassins stance and stuff are all very good. It's why he'll dip a level into Swordsage around level 5 (he's starting at 2). It'll make him slightly less MAD.


Ah, but if he doesn't, a Spellthief will be more useful than a Rogue. Still not as useful as a Factotum or Beguiler, but at least he'll have some punch of his own.

The situation he's in will severely limit his wealth (I will probably not be following WBL) until he takes the initiative and manages to get wealth on his own. He's doing a city-based adventure and his background is that he's from the poorest section of town and the poor are discrimininated against HEAVILY in this planar metropolis (Sigil-esque, but not Lady of Pain). He'll need to steal whatever wands he wants to use.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 05:07 PM
What do you think of the rest of my houserules? And yes, Shadow Blade and Shadow Jaunt and Assassins stance and stuff are all very good. It's why he'll dip a level into Swordsage around level 5 (he's starting at 2). It'll make him slightly less MAD.

Be aware that dipping really screws up spellthieves, especially if you're not doing it into an arcane class and using Master Spellthief. That one dip will kill his Absorb Spell ability and mess up a bunch of other abilities he has based on spell level. You might even consider making a bunch of his abilities based off character level instead of class level.

I'm not going to comment on your overall house rules, just what it does to spellthieves in particular. You obviously should know how your general house rules work better than I would! As for the stuff you want to add to spellthieves, they're fine, as spellthieves need a lot of help in a solo campaign.

JaronK

Person_Man
2010-02-03, 05:40 PM
That would work great, except you don't borrow spells. You steal them, and then they are gone. This means that when you take from the party Wizard, you actually do weaken him. If you're going to do that, you'd be better off just playing as a Wizard. It does work with Spell Likes, which is why Spellthieves are so good with Factotums.

That is certainly true at low levels, assuming you're playing with Clerics and Wizards and whatnot, and not Dragonfire Adepts, Warlocks, and Factotum.

But at mid to high levels, the math changes. The DMG suggests 4 encounters per game day. Let's assume that each combat lasts an average of 4 rounds. By 7th level, a Wizard can cast a spell on every single round of every single combat, not counting 0 level spells, bonus spells, and the not improbably possibility that they might want to use a magic item or a feat instead of a spell each round. Now, certainly many OCD Wizards will burn several spells on buffs as well. But it's reasonable that by mid levels that they could spare a few spells for the Spellthief in their party. And by high levels, casters generally go to be with over half of their spells per day unused.

So yes, if you're playing in a small, low level party with one or two casters, Spellthieves suck. But in a larger, higher level party with multiple casters and SLA users, Spelltheives can rock.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 05:42 PM
Usually I find that the unused spells I have as a Wizard are the ones that just didn't come up that day... the just in case spells that weren't needed. It's not like I prepped two Maws of Chaos and only got to use one. It's more like I had Alter Self on standby in case I needed to burrow or fly or something, and that didn't end up being needed.

As such, having a spellthief there really wouldn't help very much.

But I of course agree on the SLA thing. Spellthieves are AWESOME with a Factotum in the party.

JaronK

FishAreWet
2010-02-03, 05:48 PM
They're great in Eberron because of Dragonmarks too.

Frosty
2010-02-03, 05:54 PM
. So yes, if you're playing in a small, low level party with one or two casters, Spellthieves suck. But in a larger, higher level party with multiple casters and SLA users, Spelltheives can rock.

The spellthief starts at level 2, is extremely poor, and has no party members at all.

JaronK
2010-02-03, 05:55 PM
Which is exactly why he needs a lot of help here. I still think just doing a Factotum//Spellthief gestalt would work really well, or maybe a Spellthief//Hexblade gestalt.

JaronK

Frosty
2010-02-03, 05:56 PM
A ST/Hexblade still only has Will as a good save, although having two spell-castimg pools does rock, as does full BAB.

JaronK
2010-02-04, 06:10 AM
Also charisma to saves against spells, which is a big help.

JaronK

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:25 PM
Would replacing the spellcasting with Bard spellcasting make the Spellthief better? Gains access to some healing spells for this solo campaign...

Gnaeus
2010-02-04, 02:34 PM
The problem with their casting isn't what they get. Spellthieves get lots of great spells. So many that I sometimes throw a spellthief level into a build to save myself the trouble of learning UMD If I know that I will have access to the spellthief wands I need.

The problem is that they don't get enough spells, and don't get spells at usable levels (whether known or per day). You could keep the spellthief list (although again in a pathfinder game I would add the Assassin list for flavor) and replace it with either the Bard or Duskblade spell progression table and you would have a much more solid class. Personally, I prefer duskblade, since that gives them a decent number of spells at level 1, but bards get 6th level spells, so I guess its a wash.

With regards to healing, ST is a cha based caster with UMD, so he can already use healing wands. He doesn't get enough spells known to make cure light wounds a very useful slot with all the cool stuff he could get instead. Giving them cure spells doesn't really strengthen them much at all, unless you give them as extra spells known for free.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-04, 02:35 PM
Would replacing the spellcasting with Bard spellcasting make the Spellthief better? Gains access to some healing spells for this solo campaign...

I say you give him the bard casting progression and expand a little bit his spell list, some of the bard spells are definetly not suitable to a spellthief, at least in my opinion

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:36 PM
Well sure I'm not just replacing the spell LIST...I'm giving the Spellthief pathfinder spells known and pathfinder spellslots per day, which is better than 3.5 version.

Duskblade is alright, but getting level 5 spells at level 17 doesn't really cut it...

I say you give him the bard casting progression and expand a little bit his spell list, some of the bard spells are definetly not suitable to a spellthief, at least in my opinion
So what do you think the spell list should look like?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-04, 02:40 PM
Well sure I'm not just replacing the spell LIST...I'm giving the Spellthief pathfinder spells known and pathfinder spellslots per day, which is better than 3.5 version.

Duskblade is alright, but getting level 5 spells at level 17 doesn't really cut it...

So what do you think the spell list should look like?

You'd be surprised actually. Duskblades get very good casting because of their spell list (Disintegrate as a 5th level spell for example). Some feel that classes with a spell progression like Pally or Ranger should actually have Duskblade casting.

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:42 PM
It's ok for a class such as the Duskblade, but it might not be worth it for a non-damage-focused class like Spellthief. Disintegrate is NOT going to be on a ST's spell list.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-04, 02:45 PM
So what do you think the spell list should look like?

I don't know, I am AFB right now, so no help there.... maybe some spells that help infilitration or escape, amorphous form saved my assassin more than once. maybe some BFC the fog line might be appropiate.... ring of blades? don't know working just from memory

Gnaeus
2010-02-04, 02:47 PM
Indeed. The PF bard does get 5th level spells at 13, not 17. But at 13, the duskblade has 25 spells per day instead of 18, and more total spell levels. *shrugs* either would work.

What is wrong with current spellthief spells + assassin list?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-04, 02:48 PM
It's ok for a class such as the Duskblade, but it might not be worth it for a non-damage-focused class like Spellthief. Disintegrate is NOT going to be on a ST's spell list.

It worksfor non-damaging utility spells too. In fact, the Duskblade actually has less damage spells than utility or buffs. He only gets a total of 3 spells that should be channeled offensively, after all. You just need to make sure the Spellthief class gets spells that are actually relevant at the level he gets them (no spells that cap at CL 10 when the Spellthief gets them at 15th, for example).

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:48 PM
On a different note, does Steal Spell Effect affect debuffs? If the target is affected by some debillitating magical effect, can the spellthief accidentally steal it if he didn't specify what effect to steal (or chooses one and the effect wasn't there)?

FishAreWet
2010-02-04, 02:50 PM
There is an ACF in Dragon Magizine that I really like.

Lose Trapfinding, drop to 4+ skill points and lose all Sneak Attack except the first one.

Gain Bardic Spellcasting! And you add Spelltheif spells to your spell list.

Did no one see this? There already exists a published 'fix'.

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:51 PM
Did no one see this? There already exists a published 'fix'.

Except I won't be making them lose trapfinding or lose skills. I'll be increasing skills.

Gnaeus
2010-02-04, 02:52 PM
Did no one see this? There already exists a published 'fix'.

And pretty clearly, we don't think this "Fix" fixes anything, since we are discussing giving what is essentially bardic casting without removing the "thief" part of spellthief.

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:54 PM
And pretty clearly, we don't think this "Fix" fixes anything, since we are discussing giving what is essentially bardic casting without removing the "thief" part of spellthief.

Otherwise you should just play a Wizard.

FishAreWet
2010-02-04, 02:55 PM
And pretty clearly, we don't think this "Fix" fixes anything, since we are discussing giving what is essentially bardic casting without removing the "thief" part of spellthief.

Didn't think it was clear! I didn't get it. Guess I'm dumb.

If it's a solo adventure then I think it's a good idea to not take away Trapfinding and either bump him to 6/8+ skills or give him Bardic Knack for free.

Frosty
2010-02-04, 02:57 PM
Didn't think it was clear! I didn't get it. Guess I'm dumb.

If it's a solo adventure then I think it's a good idea to not take away Trapfinding and either bump him to 6/8+ skills or give him Bardic Knack for free.

You're not dumb :smalltongue: I will be giving him 8+Int skills, consolidated skills similar to Pathfinder, increasing his spellcasting, giving him Arcane Resistance a la Hexblade, bumping Reflex save up to Good progression, increasing SA dice progression, and slightly bumping up at what levels he can steal better spells. And some other stuff yet to be determined.

Frosty
2010-02-04, 10:59 PM
And here is the fix after giving it more thoughts. Criticisms please?


HD: d8

Class Skills (8+Int mod per level): Acrobatics, Appraise, Athletics, Bluff,
Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Gather Information,
Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (local), Perception, Search, Sense Motive,
Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Stealth

BAB: 3/4 progression
Saves: Bad Fort, Good Ref, Good Will

Lv Special
1st SA 1d6, steal spell (0 or 1st), trapfinding
2nd Detect magic, arcane resistance
3rd Steal energy resistance 10, steal spell (2nd)
4th Mage Slayer, SA 2d6
5th Steal spell-like ability, steal spell (3rd)
6th Arcane sight
7th Absorb spell, SA 3d6, steal spell (4th)
8th Pierce Magical Concealment
9th Steal energy resistance 20, steal spell (5th)
10th Discover spell, SA 4d6
11th Steal spell (6th)
12th Pierce Magical Protection
13th Greater arcane sight, SA 5d6, steal spell (7th)
14th Steal spell resistance
15th Steal energy resistance 30, steal spell (8th)
16th SA 6d6
17th Steal spell (9th)
18th Increased spell limit
19th SA 7d6
20th Absorb spell (immediate casting)


Spells: Instead of the normal table, use the Pathfinder Bard progression for spell slots and spells known. Use the original table for 0th level spell slots per day. The spell list remains the same.

Steal Spell (Su): As original, except a Spellthief may steal spells of 2nd level at third level, and for every two levels beyond 3rd, the maximum spell level stolen goes up by one (to a maximum of 9th level spells stolen at seventeenth level). A Spellthief may also use stolen spell energy to cast his own spells starting at level 1 instead of at level 4, since he now has spells from the beginning.

Arcane Resistance (Su): At 2nd level, a Spellthief gains a bonus equal to his Charisma bonus (minimum +1) on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects.

Absorb Spell (Su): As original, except as follows: To absorb a spell, Spellthief must succeed on a hit-dice check (1d20+the number of HD the Spellthief has) vs a DC of 10+X, where X is the spell's Caster Level, or the caster's HD, whichever is lower. At 20th level, in addition to the normal benefits of being able to cast the absorbed spell immediately, a Spellthief is also able to attempt to absorb spells that do not allow saves. For example, a Polar Ray aimed at the Spellthief has a chance at being absorbed despite the fact it allows no save. Finally, at 20th level, a Spellthief also gets a +2 bonus on his hit-dice checks to try to absorb spells.

Greater Arcane Sight (Sp): Beginning at 13th level, a Spellthief can use Greater Arcane Sight as a swift action a number of time per day equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1). His caster level is equal to his Spellthief level.

Increased spell limit: At 18th level, a spellthief is able to store more spell levels with his Steal Spell ability than normal. The maximum amount of stored spell levels is increased by 5 permanently.

Bonus Feats: At 4th, 8th, and 12th level respectively, a Spellthief gains the feats Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and Pierce Magical Protection, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for those feats. In addition, he does not incur any penalties to his Caster Level for having those feats. This applies to the Caster Level for both his spells and his spell-like abilities.