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Drolyt
2010-02-03, 03:05 PM
There was a thread a while back about Hellsing Vampires. This isn't exactly that, but should work as a way to play vampires from level 1. Over 20 levels No Life Kings gain all the benefits of the vampire template and this Vampire Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20021018a) template, except they are destroyed at 0 hit points (instead of turning gaseous) and don't have any special weaknesses, and they also gain some minor spellcasting capabilities and the ability to rebuke undead. This class is rather powerful, if not completely broken, and I'm not sure what tier (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) it would go in (I'm hoping no higher than 3).
The No Life King:

Alignment
Any, though neutral No Life Kings are rare. The dark power running through a No Life King tends them towards Chaotic Evil, regardless of their previous alignment, and only the most righteous and law abiding (respectively) resist the pull.
Hit Die
d12+1. No Life Kings have no Consitution score, but they add 1 to all of the hit die rolls (even those for other classes/monster hit dice).
Class Skills
The No Life King's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Spot (Wis).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
4 + Int modifier.
No Life King
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th

1st|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+2|Undead Traits, Blood Drain, Rebuke Undead, Slam Attack, Turn Resistance +4||||||

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+0|
+3|Bonus Feat, Spider Climb, Str +2||||||
3rd|
+3|
+1|
+1|
+3|Natural Armor +2, Dex +2||||||

4th|
+4|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat, Spellcasting, Int +2|6|4||||

5th|
+5|
+1|
+1|
+4|Alternate Form, Create Spawn, Skills +2, Wis +2|6|4||||

6th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+2|
+5|Bonus Feat, Natural Armor +4, Resistances, Cha +2|6|5||||

7th|
+7/+2|
+2|
+2|
+5|Children of the Night, Str +2|6|5||||

8th|
+8/+3|
+2|
+2|
+6|Bonus Feat, Fast Healing 5, Gaseous Form, Dex +2|6|6|3|||
9th|
+9/+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Natural Armor +6, Dominate, Cha +2|6|6|3|||

10th|
+10/+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat, Energy Drain, Damage Reduction, Skills +4, Str +2|6|6|4|||

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+3|
+3|
+7|Telepathy, Dominate (Voice)|6|6|4|||

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+8|Control Weather, Natural Armor +8, Str +2|6|6|5|3||

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+4|
+4|
+8|Telekinesis, Dex +2|6|6|5|4||

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+4|
+4|
+9|Fast Healing 8, Flight, Int +2|6|6|6|4||

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+5|
+5|
+9|Natural Armor +10, Skills +6, Wis +2|6|6|6|4||

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+10|Bonus Feat, Cha +2|6|6|6|5|3|

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+10|Bonus Feat, Str +2|6|6|6|5|3|

18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+11|Natural Armor +12, Dex +2|6|6|6|6|4|

19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Unholy Grace, Cha +2|6|6|6|6|4|

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Energy Drain (3 levels), Turn Resistance +8, Skills +8, Str +2|6|6|6|6|5|4[/table]


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
No Life Kings are proficient with all simple and martial weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor of any type interferes with a No Life King's arcane gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.
Undead Traits
No Life Kings have no Constitution score. They are immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. They are also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fail Constitution checks. Their ability modifier for other effects affected by Constitution (such as hit points) is +0. They use their Charisma modifier for concentration skill checks. They cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring.
No Life Kings have Darkvision out to 60'.
No Life Kings are immune to all Mind-Affecting Effects (including charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
No Life Kings are immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
No Life Kings are not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. They are immune to damage to their physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
No Life Kings are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy.
No Life Kings are not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, they are immediately destroyed.
No Life Kings are affected by resurrection magic (such as raise dead) normally. Such spells (not even true resurrection) cannot restore them to their living state however.
No Life Kings do not breathe, eat, or sleep, but must consume a certain amount of blood to survive. It is not necessary that the blood come from sentient creatures, but evil No Life Kings prefer that it does.
Blood Drain (Ex)
A No Life King can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the No Life King gains 5 temporary hit points.
Rebuke Undead (Su)
No Life Kings rebuke undead as evil cleric their class level.
Slam Attack
No Life Kings posses a natural slam attack that deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage.
Turn Resistance (Ex)
No Life Kings have +4 turn resistance. This increases to +8 at 20th level.
Ability Scores
No Life Kings receive bonuses to their ability scores as given on the table above. Total ability score bonuses at 20th level are +12 Str, +8 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +8 Cha.
Bonus Feat
At 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 16th, and 17th levels a No Life King may choose a bonus feat from the following list: Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Leadership, and Lightning Reflexes. They must still meet all the prerequisites for the feat. If there are no feats the No Life King can select (eg they already have all the feats they qualify for) the No Life King may select another feat instead.
Spider Climb (Ex)
A No Life King of 2nd level or higher. can climb sheer surfaces as though with a spider climb spell.
Natural Armor
No Life Kings of 3rd level or higher gain an enhancement bonus to their natural armor of +2. This bonus increases by an additional +2 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +12 at 18th level..
Spellcasting
Starting at 4th level No Life Kings cast spells as a sorcerer of half their level, except that they know all sorcerer/wizard spells of the Conjuration, Enchantment, Necromancy, and Transmutation schools.
Alternate Form (Su)
No Life Kings of 5th level or higher can assume the shape of a bat, dire bat, wolf, or dire wolf as a standard action. While in their alternate form, No Life Kings lose their natural slam attacks and dominate abilities, but gain the natural weapons and extraordinary special attacks of their new form. They can remain in that form until they assumes another.
Create Spawn (Su)
A No Life King of 5th level or higher can create spawn.
A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a No Life King's energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial. A No Life King of 11th level or higher may also create vampires with their energy drain (see below).
If the No Life King instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the No Life King that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. At any given time a vampire may have enslaved spawn totaling no more than twice its own Hit Dice; any spawn it creates that would exceed this limit are created as free-willed vampires or vampire spawn. A vampire that is enslaved may create and enslave spawn of its own, so a No Life King can control a number of lesser vampires in this fashion. A No Life King may voluntarily free an enslaved spawn in order to enslave a new spawn, but once freed, a vampire or vampire spawn cannot be enslaved again.
A No Life King may instead choose to create a new No Life King, with the victim gaining one level of this class instead of the vampire spawn or vampire templates. If the victim had only one class level or hit die it is replaced with the first level of No Life King, otherwise they gain a level. No Life Kings created in this manner are not under their creator's immediate control, though they may attempt to rebuke them. Regular vampires (not even vampire lords) cannot create No Life Kings.
A No Life King may create as many spawn as they wish, but they may not control spawn of more than half their level (round down).
Skills
No Life Kings of 5th level or higher gain a +2 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 10th level, +6 at 15th level, and finally +8 at 20th level.
Resistances (Ex)
A No Life King of 6th level or higher has resistance to cold 10 and electricity 10.
Children of the Night (Su)
No Life Kings of 7th level or higher command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action.
Fast Healing (Ex)
A No Life King of at least 8th level heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. 1t 14th level this increases to Fast Healing 8.
Gaseous Form (Su)
As a standard action, a No Life King of 8th level or higher can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level equal to the No Life King's class level), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Dominate (Su)
No Life Kings of 9th level or higher can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the No Life King must use a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the No Life King targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the No Life King's class level + Cha modifier) or fall instantly under the No Life King’s influence as though by a dominate person spell (caster level equal to class level). The ability has a range of 30 feet. Starting at 11th level the No Life King can use this ability by voice, so that the target only needs to hear them to be affected.
Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by the slam attack (or any other natural weapon the No Life King might possess) of a No Life King of 10th level or higher gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round. At 20th level this increases to 3 negative levels.
Damage Reduction (Su)
A No Life King of 10th level or higher has damage reduction 10/silver and magic. A vampire’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Telepathy (Su)
A No Life King of 11th level or higher can communicate telepathically with any living creature within 100 feet that has a language, and with any vampire under its direct control to a range of 1 mile.
Control Weather (Sp)
A No Life King of 12th level or higher can cast either control weather or fog cloud as a sorcerer of their class level at will.
Telekinesis (Su): A No Life King of 13th level or higher can use telekinesis (caster level equal to class level) at will.
Flight (Su)
No Life Kings of 14th level or higher have a fly speed of 50' with perfect maneuverability.
Unholy Grace (Su)
A No Life King of 19th level or higher adds their Charisma modifier to saves just as a paladin does.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 04:54 PM
PEACH? I post a thread about the 4e vs 3e war, and I get like a thousand posts a minute, I post a thread about a sweet vampire class, no responses.

pyrefiend
2010-02-03, 05:04 PM
Homebrew takes a lot longer to respond to, especially lengthy homebrew. Besides, its only been about two hours, it often takes far longer.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 05:11 PM
Homebrew takes a lot longer to respond to, especially lengthy homebrew. Besides, its only been about two hours, it often takes far longer.

Really? I usually get quick responses, and if I don't get a response before it falls off the first page I usually don't get any.

FlamingKobold
2010-02-03, 08:44 PM
First of all, this is awesome, and I really want to use it :smallbiggrin:


Skill Points at 1st Level
(4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
2 + Int modifier.


is it 2 or 4?

take out the extra spell levels from the table please...

Before the PEACHing can begin: what tier do you want this to be? It looks like a very high 3, at the very least.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 08:50 PM
First of all, this is awesome, and I really want to use it :smallbiggrin:



is it 2 or 4?

take out the extra spell levels from the table please...

Before the PEACHing can begin: what tier do you want this to be? It looks like a very high 3, at the very least.

Tier 3, and it's supposed to be 4 skill points per level. I must have screwed up my copy/paste. Yeah, I'll fix the table, that was also copy/paste. Edit: Fixed. I also clarified the alignment part.

Jota
2010-02-03, 10:57 PM
Create Spawn (aka Leadership on crack) needs to be changed or removed or something. If no spawn could have more than say, half the No Life King's HD of levels (that is, a 16th level NLK could have spawn of up to 8th level), that would at least be a start. I'm hesitant to offer a number such as [Level - 4] (even though in that case the NLK should be four times as strong as the strongest spawn) because those spawn can still be relevant in combat. The ability cannot offer the kind of power it currently offers and be anywhere closed to balance. It should really be flavorful/about hordes of weaker allies I think, not about single adjutants nearly as comparable as their master, especially when they can have spawn of their own. Also, a NLK could technically kill something stronger than himself, and then the character is potentially superfluous because hey, we've got a vampiric red dragon on our team now. Or a vampiric solar, or whatever.

Drolyt
2010-02-03, 11:06 PM
Create Spawn (aka Leadership on crack) needs to be changed or removed or something. If no spawn could have more than say, half the No Life King's HD of levels (that is, a 16th level NLK could have spawn of up to 8th level), that would at least be a start. I'm hesitant to offer a number such as [Level - 4] (even though in that case the NLK should be four times as strong as the strongest spawn) because those spawn can still be relevant in combat. The ability cannot offer the kind of power it currently offers and be anywhere closed to balance. It should really be flavorful/about hordes of weaker allies I think, not about single adjutants nearly as comparable as their master, especially when they can have spawn of their own. Also, a NLK could technically kill something stronger than himself, and then the character is potentially superfluous because hey, we've got a vampiric red dragon on our team now. Or a vampiric solar, or whatever.

That's a good point. I'll make it half level. Thanks.

Melayl
2010-02-03, 11:32 PM
Ok...I'm going to give this shot. Please understand that I'm not trying to be mean with my critique, but some of it might come out sounding hard.

If you're making this for a scalable BBEG, you're doing well. If you're making it as a PC class...

I think you overshot your mark of Tier 3. By at least one, maybe two, maybe more. Hear me out, I'll try to break it down for you.

Poor BAB and 2 Poor saves, 4 skill points/level. All below the average tier 3.

All simple weapons and martial weapons -- in line with tier 3.

No armor/shields -- definitely below tier 3.


Undead Traits
(snip)
Ok, here's where we first hit a problem. BIG power level here. Sure, they might be subject to Turning (but you don't specify, or if they're harmed by holy water, etc)
Immune to anything that requires a Fort save unless it works on objects or is harmless (which won't harm them...). It doesn't matter now that they have a Poor Fort save.
Immune to ability damage/drain and energy drain -- a permanent 4th level spell effect at 1st level.
They cannot tire, so cannot be subject to fatigue or exhaustion effects.
Darkvision is incidental at this point.
Immune to all mind-affecting effects -- about the equivalent of Mind Blank (except probably more powerful), an 8th level spell, permanently at 1st level.
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects -- the equivalent to at least one 4th level spell (Death Ward -- I don't even know if there are spells that do the rest), again, permanent at 1st level.
Immune to critical hits and non-lethal damage (the rest of that is rather redundant as it has already been covered in the 1st part of the traits) -- again a very powerful ability (I don't know of a spell analog) at 1st level.
Healed by negative/harmed by positive -- this is about a wash. They might have a harder time finding healing (and they die at 0), but that's about it.
They die at 0 HP -- the ONLY weakness I've found -- but it doesn't matter too much, because:
They can be resurrected! They're not permanently destroyed.
They don't eat, breathe, or sleep -- also very powerful -- at 1st level.
They need to consume blood, but it doesn't need to be from a sentient creature -- they can own a cow or a goat and never put themself in danger from their meal... Not really a drawback.

At least you can damage them with normal weapons...


Blood Drain (Ex)
A No Life King can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the No Life King gains 5 temporary hit points.
A 1st level natural attack that deals CONSTITUION drain. AND gains the character temporary HP. That they can try to use every round. Wow. I can't even find a spell analog for this...

Rebuke Undead -- a cleric gets it at 1st level (a tier 1), but it's not too bad.

Slam attack -- a 1d6 natural attack. In line with the Monk, I suppose, but without the flurry ability, so not bad (tier 4 or so).

Turn resistance +4 -- makes them alot harder to turn, at 1st level.

+2 Ability Score bonuses -- starting at level 2 and every level thereafter, for a total of +12 Str, +8 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +8 Cha. If they didn't have all the immunities, this alone would be decent, but not great. Tier 3-4 (without the immunities, etc)

Seven bonus feats (again, separate from the other powerful abilities, this is minor -- tier 4-5).

Spider climb -- a permanent 2nd level spell effect at 2nd level -- Can they throw things, or are the limited like the spell is? Not overly powerful, but still nothing to sneeze at.

Natural Armor -- +2 starting at 3rd level, going to +12. Overall, not bad, since they don't get any armor proficiency, probably balanced. But they do get Dexterity bonuses.

Spellcasting -- here's the next really powerful ability (probably more powerful than the immunities). Sure, they may cast as a sorcerer of half their level, but they know EVERY SPELL in 4 schools. The 4 most powerful schools. This alone would put them into the tier 1 category. Not even a wizard can spontaneously cast ANY spell (of a level they can cast, granted) from 4 schools. At 4th level. This means they can also create scrolls/potions/etc from these 4 schools (with the appropriate feats). Way powerful.

Alternate form -- and now we come to another powerful ability. Basically, an unlimited use wildshape, even if it is restricted to 4 forms. It has Unlimited uses and Unlimited duration. At 5th level. Sure, they can't Dominate or use their slam attack, but really, they don't need to. They can, aparently, still cast spells (since you don't say they can't).

Create Spawn -- this makes powerful ability no. 4? They can create powerful servants that must follow their orders, and can create more slaves for them. Wow. At least as powerful as Create Undead (6th level spell), if not Create Greater Undead (an 8th level spell) or more. At 5th level. Plus, you'll be able to cast those two spells.

Automatic skill bonuses starting at 5th level, and scaling -- minor, in the scheme of things. Tier 4-5, I'd say.

ER 10, cold and electricity -- at level 6. More powerful resistances/protections.

Children of the Night -- At least it's only once per day. Like a more powerful Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Swarm.

Fast Healing -- It doesn't start until 8th level, but you've been able to heal yourself with necromancy spells since 4th level anyway. Useful (since you do die, sort of, at 0 HP) but not overly powerful.

Gaseous form -- other than gaining the DR/magic, flight, and the ability to get into tight spaces to escape, you don't really gain much from this (since you already have all those immunities and more). It does limit your ability to cast spells, but if you have the right feats you can still cast. Reasonably powerful, but not overly so. Tier 2-3, probably.

Dominate -- an unlimited use 5th level spell. And a powerful spell, at that. Again, wow. If this was the only spell-like ability (out side of the immunities), it would be alright, but with all the rest...

Energy Drain -- wow, another unlimited use spell. 4th level, but very powerful. And you gain temporary HP, too.

DR 10/magic AND silver -- either-or wouldn't be all that powerful, but BOTH together? Not many weapons will have that combo. And at 10th level...

Telepathy -- at this point, this is kinda meh. Useful to control your horde of undead and Dominated slaves, though. At 11th level it's not that overpowered...

Control Weather -- two more at will spells. Not overly powerful ones, and they're already on the list of spells you know and can cast, but still two more at will spells.

Telekinesis -- yet another at will 5th level spell. At 13th level this time, but still...You don't even need to close with the enemy to rough them up anymore. And you don't need to use spell resources to do it, either.

Flight -- an upgrade to a 3rd level spell, at will. At 14th level, but still powerful even then. Now the enemy might not be able to close with you... or get away from you.

Unholy Grace -- at 19th level, with all the other abilities this class has, it doesn't even really matter.

Yowsa. Yeah, I think you're looking at a tier 1 at least, if not tier 0 or -1.

To bring it down to playable levels, you'd need (at least) to spread out the undead traits over many levels, reduce the blood drain to 1 or 1d2, make them learn spells like sorcerers do (i.e. spells known) instead of all of them, probably give them fewer spells per day, put limits on: alternate form and Dominate (at LEAST), slow down the energy drain, reduce the number of spawn they can control and raise the level of create spawn, change the DR to or instead of and.

That's what I've got, take it for what you will. This is a good translation of the abilties, but it is still Way powerful.

Drolyt
2010-02-04, 12:26 AM
Ok...I'm going to give this shot. Please understand that I'm not trying to be mean with my critique, but some of it might come out sounding hard.

If you're making this for a scalable BBEG, you're doing well. If you're making it as a PC class...

I think you overshot your mark of Tier 3. By at least one, maybe two, maybe more. Hear me out, I'll try to break it down for you.

Poor BAB and 2 Poor saves, 4 skill points/level. All below the average tier 3.

All simple weapons and martial weapons -- in line with tier 3.

No armor/shields -- definitely below tier 3.

Ok, here's where we first hit a problem. BIG power level here. Sure, they might be subject to Turning (but you don't specify, or if they're harmed by holy water, etc)
Immune to anything that requires a Fort save unless it works on objects or is harmless (which won't harm them...). It doesn't matter now that they have a Poor Fort save.
Immune to ability damage/drain and energy drain -- a permanent 4th level spell effect at 1st level.
They cannot tire, so cannot be subject to fatigue or exhaustion effects.
Darkvision is incidental at this point.
Immune to all mind-affecting effects -- about the equivalent of Mind Blank (except probably more powerful), an 8th level spell, permanently at 1st level.
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects -- the equivalent to at least one 4th level spell (Death Ward -- I don't even know if there are spells that do the rest), again, permanent at 1st level.
Immune to critical hits and non-lethal damage (the rest of that is rather redundant as it has already been covered in the 1st part of the traits) -- again a very powerful ability (I don't know of a spell analog) at 1st level.
Healed by negative/harmed by positive -- this is about a wash. They might have a harder time finding healing (and they die at 0), but that's about it.
They die at 0 HP -- the ONLY weakness I've found -- but it doesn't matter too much, because:
They can be resurrected! They're not permanently destroyed.
They don't eat, breathe, or sleep -- also very powerful -- at 1st level.
They need to consume blood, but it doesn't need to be from a sentient creature -- they can own a cow or a goat and never put themself in danger from their meal... Not really a drawback.

At least you can damage them with normal weapons...

A 1st level natural attack that deals CONSTITUION drain. AND gains the character temporary HP. That they can try to use every round. Wow. I can't even find a spell analog for this...

Rebuke Undead -- a cleric gets it at 1st level (a tier 1), but it's not too bad.

Slam attack -- a 1d6 natural attack. In line with the Monk, I suppose, but without the flurry ability, so not bad (tier 4 or so).

Turn resistance +4 -- makes them alot harder to turn, at 1st level.

+2 Ability Score bonuses -- starting at level 2 and every level thereafter, for a total of +12 Str, +8 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Wis, and +8 Cha. If they didn't have all the immunities, this alone would be decent, but not great. Tier 3-4 (without the immunities, etc)

Seven bonus feats (again, separate from the other powerful abilities, this is minor -- tier 4-5).

Spider climb -- a permanent 2nd level spell effect at 2nd level -- Can they throw things, or are the limited like the spell is? Not overly powerful, but still nothing to sneeze at.

Natural Armor -- +2 starting at 3rd level, going to +12. Overall, not bad, since they don't get any armor proficiency, probably balanced. But they do get Dexterity bonuses.

Spellcasting -- here's the next really powerful ability (probably more powerful than the immunities). Sure, they may cast as a sorcerer of half their level, but they know EVERY SPELL in 4 schools. The 4 most powerful schools. This alone would put them into the tier 1 category. Not even a wizard can spontaneously cast ANY spell (of a level they can cast, granted) from 4 schools. At 4th level. This means they can also create scrolls/potions/etc from these 4 schools (with the appropriate feats). Way powerful.

Alternate form -- and now we come to another powerful ability. Basically, an unlimited use wildshape, even if it is restricted to 4 forms. It has Unlimited uses and Unlimited duration. At 5th level. Sure, they can't Dominate or use their slam attack, but really, they don't need to. They can, aparently, still cast spells (since you don't say they can't).

Create Spawn -- this makes powerful ability no. 4? They can create powerful servants that must follow their orders, and can create more slaves for them. Wow. At least as powerful as Create Undead (6th level spell), if not Create Greater Undead (an 8th level spell) or more. At 5th level. Plus, you'll be able to cast those two spells.

Automatic skill bonuses starting at 5th level, and scaling -- minor, in the scheme of things. Tier 4-5, I'd say.

ER 10, cold and electricity -- at level 6. More powerful resistances/protections.

Children of the Night -- At least it's only once per day. Like a more powerful Summon Nature's Ally or Summon Swarm.

Fast Healing -- It doesn't start until 8th level, but you've been able to heal yourself with necromancy spells since 4th level anyway. Useful (since you do die, sort of, at 0 HP) but not overly powerful.

Gaseous form -- other than gaining the DR/magic, flight, and the ability to get into tight spaces to escape, you don't really gain much from this (since you already have all those immunities and more). It does limit your ability to cast spells, but if you have the right feats you can still cast. Reasonably powerful, but not overly so. Tier 2-3, probably.

Dominate -- an unlimited use 5th level spell. And a powerful spell, at that. Again, wow. If this was the only spell-like ability (out side of the immunities), it would be alright, but with all the rest...

Energy Drain -- wow, another unlimited use spell. 4th level, but very powerful. And you gain temporary HP, too.

DR 10/magic AND silver -- either-or wouldn't be all that powerful, but BOTH together? Not many weapons will have that combo. And at 10th level...

Telepathy -- at this point, this is kinda meh. Useful to control your horde of undead and Dominated slaves, though. At 11th level it's not that overpowered...

Control Weather -- two more at will spells. Not overly powerful ones, and they're already on the list of spells you know and can cast, but still two more at will spells.

Telekinesis -- yet another at will 5th level spell. At 13th level this time, but still...You don't even need to close with the enemy to rough them up anymore. And you don't need to use spell resources to do it, either.

Flight -- an upgrade to a 3rd level spell, at will. At 14th level, but still powerful even then. Now the enemy might not be able to close with you... or get away from you.

Unholy Grace -- at 19th level, with all the other abilities this class has, it doesn't even really matter.

Yowsa. Yeah, I think you're looking at a tier 1 at least, if not tier 0 or -1.

To bring it down to playable levels, you'd need (at least) to spread out the undead traits over many levels, reduce the blood drain to 1 or 1d2, make them learn spells like sorcerers do (i.e. spells known) instead of all of them, probably give them fewer spells per day, put limits on: alternate form and Dominate (at LEAST), slow down the energy drain, reduce the number of spawn they can control and raise the level of create spawn, change the DR to or instead of and.

That's what I've got, take it for what you will. This is a good translation of the abilties, but it is still Way powerful.

Hmm, I was afraid it was overpowered. I'll see what I can do, but weakening him involves cutting away at the concept a bit. Are you sure axing the spells isn't enough? Thanks for the detailed analysis.

Dante & Vergil
2010-02-04, 01:57 AM
Before you do anything, I say do the ten encounter challenge. I unfortunately don't know the specifics, but what it comes down to is putting the class at level 10 against 10 other encounters, see how well it does against each, then do a final analysis. If you can wait 'till tomorrow, I can see if I can find them for you.

Drolyt
2010-02-04, 10:02 AM
Before you do anything, I say do the ten encounter challenge. I unfortunately don't know the specifics, but what it comes down to is putting the class at level 10 against 10 other encounters, see how well it does against each, then do a final analysis. If you can wait 'till tomorrow, I can see if I can find them for you.

Yeah a link would be great, never heard of this 10 encounter challenge. Thanks.

Surgo
2010-02-04, 10:10 AM
It's called the Same Game test, and can be found here. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test)

I don't really think Malayt's critique of this is well thought-out. Who cares about constitution drain at first level? You have to pin them to do it -- takes multiple rounds, and the rogue is reliably killing one guy a round. Constitution drain ain't doing that. The rest of the critique follows pretty much the same pattern.

And immunities are not powerful. Until you get something that targets those immunities, they are flavor. That's why this line-by-line critique of individual powers is completely useless -- the only way to judge balance is with a test similar to the one I linked.

Drolyt
2010-02-04, 10:14 AM
It's called the Same Game test, and can be found here. (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dungeons_and_Dragons_Wiki:The_Same_Game_Test)

I don't really think Malayt's critique of this is well thought-out. Who cares about constitution drain at first level? You have to pin them to do it -- takes multiple rounds, and the rogue is reliably killing one guy a round. Constitution drain ain't doing that. The rest of the critique follows pretty much the same pattern.

Yeah I agree about the constitution drain, but the immunities are pretty powerful, as is the spellcasting (even though it is limited in level). I'm still not sure, I think it might be too high in tier 3 but I don't think it's tier 2, it's certainly not a sorcerer.
Edit: Alright, same game test. For purposes of this test our 10th level Human No Life King will have the following build:
Ability Scores (after class and level bonuses): Str 22 Dex 18 Con - Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 18.
Feats: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Martial Study, Martial Stance, Martial Study, Martial Study. No Life King Bonus Feats: Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Skills: To Come.
Equipment: To Come.

Dante & Vergil
2010-02-04, 12:43 PM
Wow, do I feel dumb. Thanks for the same game test, Surgo.

Melayl
2010-02-04, 08:44 PM
I don't really think Malayl's critique of this is well thought-out. You are welcome to your opinion.


Who cares about constitution drain at first level?I gave my opinion. You've given yours.


You have to pin them to do it -- takes multiple rounds Both true.


and the rogue is reliably killing one guy a round. I really don't think so. IF he's flanking each and every round, against low-CR/HP opponents, it could be possible, but not likely.


Constitution drain ain't doing that. Con drain causes HP loss, and Con 0 = dead. No, it's not dropping an opponent every round, but neither is the rogue.


The rest of the critique follows pretty much the same pattern. Again, you have your opinion, I gave mine. I stand by what I said.


And immunities are not powerful. The LA system and the WoTC designers would disagree.
Until you get something that targets those immunities, they are flavor. No, they're abilities. That's like saying that until you get hit, HP and AC are just flavor.


That's why this line-by-line critique of individual powers is completely useless Hardly, but you're entitled to your opinion.

-- the only way to judge balance is with a test similar to the one I linked.It may be that such a test is useful. I've never heard of it, but I by no means claim to know everything.

Drolyt
2010-02-04, 09:40 PM
You are welcome to your opinion.
The LA system and the WoTC designers would disagree.

The WotC designers also thought wizards and monks were balanced, so I'm not sure their opinion on immunities is very useful. Also the LA system generally create characters who at their ECL are outshined by CW Samurai of their level.


It may be that such a test is useful. I've never heard of it, but I by no means claim to know everything.
Yeah, I don't think such a test is the only way to determine balance. I thought your analysis was helpful, thank you.

Surgo
2010-02-04, 10:52 PM
I really don't think so. IF he's flanking each and every round, against low-CR/HP opponents, it could be possible, but not likely.
The rogue will reliably kill one opponent per round at every level in the game. That's kind of his shtick. If you don't see why this is possible I will be happy to spell it out for you level-by-level, in this thread even. Just let me know.

Drolyt
2010-02-05, 06:38 AM
The rogue will reliably kill one opponent per round at every level in the game. That's kind of his shtick. If you don't see why this is possible I will be happy to spell it out for you level-by-level, in this thread even. Just let me know.

You know what, go ahead. Although this class is immune to sneak attacks...

Melayl
2010-02-05, 06:49 AM
I'm interested in seeing your logic.

Surgo
2010-02-05, 08:53 AM
You asked for it, you got it!

For our race, we'll be a Halfling. Halflings are insanely great, especially for Rogues. For the class, we'll only ever use Rogue levels. Stats are just high dexterity, then high int. Normal Rogue stuff.

For feats, you want Point Blank Shot at 1 and Rapid Shot at 3. I think there's a Halfling out there that gets a bonus feat -- use that if you know what it is.

Level 1: Admittedly, you aren't much of a snowflake at this level. You'll do 2d6 (or 1d6 + whatever your bow damage is) on a sneak attack, and compared to the Fighter or Barbarian's 2d6+strength, with a better hit chance, that isn't that impressive. The Fighter or Barbarian are dropping a guy a round and are overall better. But that's okay, life is cheap at first level. Don't sweat it.

Level 5: Not only do you have Rapid Shot, but you can finally afford acid flasks and alchemist's fire in bulk. These two items are going to be your main-stay as a Rogue. They are ranged attacks that require an attack roll (which means they count for sneak attack on the prime target), and they strike as touch attacks (which is good because your BAB is moderate, and this more than makes up the difference). That also means you have a high chance of hitting even with your weakest attacks.

So now you throw two acid flasks a round and rapid shot it. You still need to flank, but at least you'll kill a dude in the surprise round and after that you can always hide. If you don't want to be in combat at this point you can use a Eversmoking Bottle and Blindfold of Utter Darkness, which lets you see them but not see you -- giving you sneak attack. A full sneak attack here is 8d6 damage plus any strength mods you have. Admittedly that's not very much for level 5 (on average 28 damage), but...you have Use Magic Device, so if you can't kill one enemy a round just fall back on a wand of color spray. It's cheap and effective.

Level 10: Now you've really come into your own. All your attacks are acid, and you can afford a Ring of Blink instead of the aforementioned attacks. This makes all your attacks into sneak attacks *and opponents flat-footed*, and because they are a ranged weapon they have no miss chance. You also get Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting so you can throw more flasks. Now you're throwing 5 flasks a round, for 30d6 (remember they are touch attacks). Add in strength mods and you get 125 damage -- that's barely enough to murder some CR 10 dudes, in other cases it'll take 2 rounds.

Now, I'd like to note here that it's a perfectly legitimate option that most DMs won't let you have -- you can take Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting with your level 10 bonus ability, so you can spend your feats on other stuff.

Level 15: More of the same, you see where this is going.

Sneak attack immunities are generally not a problem because there are level 1 spells in places like the Spell Compendium that grant you the ability to bypass them, and are a swift action to cast. Load up one of those in wands and UMD it up and you're gold. Haste is a great buff too -- let's you throw another flask at your highest attack bonus, gives you an attack bonus, etc.


One thing I noticed while writing this and comparing the numbers is that it's not necessarily "murder a dude a round" -- sometimes it takes two rounds. That's still way less than how long constitution drain will take to murder a dude.

Jota
2010-02-05, 09:24 AM
Halfling Hurler

Not sure if the number of available feats will allow it, but getting Craven (more so) and Power Throw (less so) will add to that damage. Craven is the big one (a flat +50 boost at level 10). Power Throw probably has too big a feat tree to be worth whatever benefits it will give, but I'm thinking at level 10 it could be an extra 25 or so.

(I know you know this, Surgo, but for general conversation purposes...)

Drolyt
2010-02-05, 10:15 AM
Not sure if the number of available feats will allow it, but getting Craven (more so) and Power Throw (less so) will add to that damage. Craven is the big one (a flat +50 boost at level 10). Power Throw probably has too big a feat tree to be worth whatever benefits it will give, but I'm thinking at level 10 it could be an extra 25 or so.

(I know you know this, Surgo, but for general conversation purposes...)

Rogue special abilities gained at level ten and later can be bonus feats instead, so there should definitely be feats left over for your suggestions. Also isn't the halfling that gets a bonus feat called strongheart halfling or something?

Jota
2010-02-05, 11:03 AM
Rogue special abilities gained at level ten and later can be bonus feats instead, so there should definitely be feats left over for your suggestions. Also isn't the halfling that gets a bonus feat called strongheart halfling or something?

Yes, it's either Races of or Player's Guide to Faerun, I think, can't remember which.

Dante & Vergil
2010-02-05, 03:38 PM
Hey, I thought this was a thread about the No Life King.

Drolyt
2010-02-05, 03:40 PM
Hey, I thought this was a thread about the No Life King.

Well, I haven't found time to actually run those encounter tests yet, so it will be as soon as I can get that done or else someone else has some comments to add.

Melayl
2010-02-05, 10:42 PM
(Sorry, Droylt, for continuing this line of thought, even if you did give the OK)

Ok, I have some problems with some of your statements. I don't claim to be right, but I don't interpret some things the way you do.


You asked for it, you got it!

For our race, we'll be a Halfling. Halflings are insanely great, especially for Rogues. For the class, we'll only ever use Rogue levels. Stats are just high dexterity, then high int. Normal Rogue stuff.

For feats, you want Point Blank Shot at 1 and Rapid Shot at 3. I think there's a Halfling out there that gets a bonus feat -- use that if you know what it is.

Level 1: Admittedly, you aren't much of a snowflake at this level. You'll do 2d6 (or 1d6 + whatever your bow damage is) on a sneak attack, and compared to the Fighter or Barbarian's 2d6+strength, with a better hit chance, that isn't that impressive. The Fighter or Barbarian are dropping a guy a round and are overall better. But that's okay, life is cheap at first level. Don't sweat it. I don't have a problem with any of that. Just remember that the rogue needs someone to set up the flank for him, so he can't do his max damage alone, and possibly not every round.


Level 5: Not only do you have Rapid Shot, but you can finally afford acid flasks and alchemist's fire in bulk. These two items are going to be your main-stay as a Rogue. Carrying around that many (fragile) vials of dangerous materials is not exactly safe, or easy (each weighs 1 pound). Some DM's would put you at risk for acid/fire damage each time you are hit if you carry around a lot of them.

They are ranged attacks that require an attack roll (which means they count for sneak attack on the prime target), This I must disagree with. As I read the sneak attack rules (my emphasis in red)

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach. you must strike VITAL organs (heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, spleen, etc) with PRECISION. I just don't see that happening with a contact item like acid or fire. It can't get to those vulnerable organs, since it is only an exterior attack. Plus, (and I may be wrong here) I thought a rogue could only get sneak attack damage on ONE attack per round, flanking or no.


So now you throw two acid flasks a round and rapid shot it. I'm assuming those two attacks are from rapid shot (the wording is not clear, but it seems likely)

You still need to flank, but at least you'll kill a dude in the surprise round and after that you can always hide. As with a 1st level rogue, they still need someone to give them the flank (even though I don't think they can sneak attack with vials). Also, as I read the Hide skill, I think it would be very hard to hide during combat. It would take having cover (which I would be willing to grant a halfling in a group of medium creatures), but it seems to me it would be more like sniping (one attack per round). Hide skill
HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot.

Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you.

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving.

If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks.

A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed.



If you don't want to be in combat at this point you can use a Eversmoking Bottle and Blindfold of Utter Darkness, which lets you see them but not see you -- giving you sneak attack. Agreed (but see my comments on vials again)


A full sneak attack here is 8d6 damage plus any strength mods you have. Admittedly that's not very much for level 5 (on average 28 damage), but...you have Use Magic Device, so if you can't kill one enemy a round just fall back on a wand of color spray. It's cheap and effective. By my math, it would be 2d6+2 damage (max 14) +Strength mod with a full attack (no sneak attack damage with vials). And your wand attack could apply to more characters than just the rogue.


Level 10: Now you've really come into your own. All your attacks are acid, and you can afford a Ring of Blink instead of the aforementioned attacks. This makes all your attacks into sneak attacks *and opponents flat-footed*, and because they are a ranged weapon they have no miss chance. This I must disagree with also.
Blinking: On command, this ring makes the wearer blink, as with the blink spell.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, blink; Price 27,000 gp.



Blink
Transmutation

Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3

Components: V, S

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Personal

Target: You

Duration: 1 round/level (D)
You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random.

Blinking has several effects, as follows.

Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn’t help opponents, since you’re ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).

If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.

Any individually targeted spell has a 50% chance to fail against you while you’re blinking unless your attacker can target invisible, ethereal creatures. Your own spells have a 20% chance to activate just as you go ethereal, in which case they typically do not affect the Material Plane.

While blinking, you take only half damage from area attacks (but full damage from those that extend onto the Ethereal Plane). You strike as an invisible creature (with a +2 bonus on attack rolls), denying your target any Dexterity bonus to AC.

You take only half damage from falling, since you fall only while you are material.

While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled. You can move at only three-quarters speed (because movement on the Ethereal Plane is at half speed, and you spend about half your time there and half your time material.)

Since you spend about half your time on the Ethereal Plane, you can see and even attack ethereal creatures. You interact with ethereal creatures roughly the same way you interact with material ones.

An ethereal creature is invisible, incorporeal, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down. As an incorporeal creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures.

An ethereal creature can see and hear the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and insubstantial. Sight and hearing on the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet.

Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can’t attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material.
(My emphasis in red) I don't read anything in that spell that says ranged attacks are not subject to the 20% miss chance.


You also get Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting so you can throw more flasks. Now you're throwing 5 flasks a round, for 30d6 (remember they are touch attacks). Add in strength mods and you get 125 damage -- that's barely enough to murder some CR 10 dudes, in other cases it'll take 2 rounds. I might be willing to concede that TWF and ITWF would grant the extra attacks on thrown weapons (although I do believe that's why they made the Rapid Shot tree...). But I still think you'd only be at 5d6+5+strength mod (no sneak attack damage), 35+ strength mod, max.


One thing I noticed while writing this and comparing the numbers is that it's not necessarily "murder a dude a round" -- sometimes it takes two rounds. That's still way less than how long constitution drain will take to murder a dude. Much more rounds, in my estimation. Probably about as many as it would take to drain their constitution to 0. Let's see...1d4 Con damage/round, call it 2 average. Even with 20 Con enemies, that's 10 rounds. Not bad.

Drolyt
2010-02-05, 10:58 PM
Well, although a DM might rule that flasks/vials/whatever can't be used for sneak attack, that's not really RAW. Besides that those are simply optimal because they are a touch attack. As for how to carry them, Bag of Holding or similar. And there are dozen's of ways to get sneak attack without flanking. So while I think it takes more thought then Surgo's post put into it, he is (in my opinion) fundamentally correct in his analysis. Rogue's are generally considered the strongest non-spellcaster non-martial adept class, although that is more UMD than sneak attack.
Edit: 10 rounds is a horribly slow time to kill an enemy in 3.5, although you might call that a flaw in the system (it doesn't seem to be how they intended it, or else was a carry over from when rounds represented much longer spans of time). Let's be a bit more generous: 2.5 con per round, average Con of 14 (what most optimizers will have it at at 1st level given the elite array). That's still 6 rounds. Not too terrible for first level, but look at this. 1st level sorcerer hits you with sleep. If you fail your save the sorcerer can then make a coup de grace. The best weapon a sorcerer could use for this is a spear, for 3d8+3xStrength damage, an average of 13.5 for a Strength 10 character, which is more or less typical for a 1st level sorcerer. If 13 damage doesn't kill then the target would have to make a dc 23 fortitude save, which is almost certainly a 95% chance of death. That only takes two rounds.

dyslexicfaser
2010-02-06, 01:22 AM
The problem, really, is the source material for this type of vampire.

I've run into the same problem in my efforts to create a No-Life King of my own. Alucard is simply far too powerful to put into D&D terms, showing off a plethora of interesting and extraordinary abilities, and is not constrained by much of anything. Seras herself (the protagonist, who probably wouldn't have more than 5 or 10 levels in No-Life King) is gaining abilities at a rate that is simply obscene.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 11:52 AM
The problem, really, is the source material for this type of vampire.

I've run into the same problem in my efforts to create a No-Life King of my own. Alucard is simply far too powerful to put into D&D terms, showing off a plethora of interesting and extraordinary abilities, and is not constrained by much of anything. Seras herself (the protagonist, who probably wouldn't have more than 5 or 10 levels in No-Life King) is gaining abilities at a rate that is simply obscene.

That's a large part of it, yes. It is also the main reason my No Life King gets spells, since Alucard almost certainly does and it is pretty much impossible to represent his abilities any other way. Even with my No Life King you'd have to be epic level to represent Alucard, so at least that much must have been done correctly.

Surgo
2010-02-06, 12:56 PM
It's not about interpretation, Melayl. Every ability is abundantly clear in how it works.


you must strike VITAL organs (heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, spleen, etc) with PRECISION. I just don't see that happening with a contact item like acid or fire. It can't get to those vulnerable organs, since it is only an exterior attack. Plus, (and I may be wrong here) I thought a rogue could only get sneak attack damage on ONE attack per round, flanking or no.
Look, regardless of what you think is possible the ability is abundantly clear: when you fulfill the prerequisites (flanking or against someone denied their dex bonus, and are within 30', and you make an attack roll), you get sneak attack. That includes flasks of materials, which require an attack roll against a target to hit.

And yes, that means you get sneak attack on all your attacks that qualify.


Anti-blink argument
Unless a spell states otherwise (like Enlarge Person), objects you let go of stop being affected by the spells that affect you.

You get sneak attacks. They kill people. If not in one round, in two. That's how rogues roll.

Melayl
2010-02-06, 01:11 PM
See, that's one of the great things about D&D. We can each play the game the way we want to.

Yes, RAW, it doesn't say you can't do those things. In my mind, however, it just doesn't seem..realistic. Yeah, I know we're talking about a fantasy game here, but some rules don't make sense as written, so I (and others) change them.

I will admit that your argument is, RAW, fundamentally correct. But even you said that it's not quite "a guy a round". I just think it is wrong for a rogue to do more damage than the guy that spends his life learning how to fight and kill. But that's a different problem.

Drolyt
2010-02-06, 01:50 PM
See, that's one of the great things about D&D. We can each play the game the way we want to.

Yes, RAW, it doesn't say you can't do those things. In my mind, however, it just doesn't seem..realistic. Yeah, I know we're talking about a fantasy game here, but some rules don't make sense as written, so I (and others) change them.

I will admit that your argument is, RAW, fundamentally correct. But even you said that it's not quite "a guy a round". I just think it is wrong for a rogue to do more damage than the guy that spends his life learning how to fight and kill. But that's a different problem.

Unfortunately when making a homebrew it is impossible to take into consideration all the different ways people play, just as it was impossible for WotC to take that into consideration. Because of this RAW is the only way a homebrew can be judged (arguably RAI, but that's another topic...). Fact is he just gave numerous reasons why a well optimized Rogue can deal craploads of damage. Until you can show how a well optimized No Life King can do the same (or something else equally broken), I'm going to assume tier 3 at the most (at least until I get around to those tests). I just don't see how this class could have the power of a Sorcerer or Psion, much less the versatility of a Cleric.

Doppelganger
2010-02-06, 08:41 PM
@melyal

I realy don't think sneak attacking with flasks is that far-fetched. It's just a matter of hitting the person/goblin/space termite in the eyes/mouth/spot without quite as many tentacels

-Pixie