[3.5] Doombringer prestige class [PEACH]

[NMBLNG]

Long time reader, first posting.

I'm playing a negative-energy cleric and I've found that I like debuff spells. I was looking for a prestige class that focused on this, but didn't really find anything. So the DM, some other players and I are working on a home brew prestige class for this.

What we've come up with so far is sort of an 'alternate-dimension' version of the Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine), called the Doombringer. Where the RSoP seeks to heal others and smite evil undead, the Doombringer seeks to bring ill fortune to those that oppose the gods. The structure for the class is very similar to the RSoP, though the abilities have been reversed.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-good, or worshipper of a non-good deity.
Skills: Knowledge(Religion) 8 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks.
Feats: Divine Metamagic, 1 of the following- Fell Drain, Fell Weaken(from Libris Mortis, aka LM), Extra Turning.
Spells: Must be able to cast divine spells.

Saves/Attack/Hit Die
Saves: High Fortitude and Will save progression, low Reflex save progression.
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4 progression. (ie, as a Cleric or RSoP)
Hit Die: d8
-not sure of the HD increase is a big deal.

Skills
Skills per level: 2 + INT
Class Skills: As RSoP.

Spellcasting
Full spellcasting. Doombringer levels also stack in regards to turning/rebuking undead.

Abilities
This is where things get interesting.

Extra Turning/Rebuking: At level 1, the Doombringer gains either the Extra Turning or Extra Rebuking feat.

Lingering Curse: When any Doombringer casts a spell that incurs a negative penalty (such as Bestow Curse, but not Cause Fear) the duration is increased by one, as if the Doombringer had an additional caster level. Has no effect on spells with a static duration.

Immortal Fortitude: At level 2, a Doombringer is immune to all diseases, mundane or magical.

Irresistible Curse: At level 2, whenever a Doombringer casts a spell that incurs a negative penalty, the DC to resist the spell is increased by 2.

Fate's Grasp: Starting at level 3, enemies within 10 feet of the Doombringer take -1 on all saves.

Bonus Domain: At level 5, the Doombringer can gain access to the Fate or Entropy domain, or any domain of his chosen deity if he worships a non-good deity.

Empowered Curse: At level 6, spells that incur a negative penalty have their penalty increased by 50%. (ie, Doom gives a -3 penalty instead of -2).

Negative energy burst: At 8th level, the Doombringer gains the Profane Lifeleech feat, even if he does not meet the normal requirements. A positive cleric must spend 3 turning attempts to use this feat, however.

Sealed Fate: At 10th level, a spell that incurs a negative penalty is affected by the Extend Spell feat. This does not increase the caster level of the spell. Apply this before the effect of Lingering Curse.

--end of description--

That's what we have so far. Biggest points of concern that I have are the Irresistible Curse, Empowered Curse, and Sealed Fate abilities.

I'll edit some more in later, mostly details on the intended effect of this class etc.

[Drolyt]

Long time reader, first posting.

I'm playing a negative-energy cleric and I've found that I like debuff spells. I was looking for a prestige class that focused on this, but didn't really find anything. So the DM, some other players and I are working on a home brew prestige class for this.

What we've come up with so far is sort of an 'alternate-dimension' version of the Radiant Servant of Pelor (Complete Divine), called the Doombringer. Where the RSoP seeks to heal others and smite evil undead, the Doombringer seeks to bring ill fortune to those that oppose the gods. The structure for the class is very similar to the RSoP, though the abilities have been reversed.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-good, or worshipper of a non-good deity.
Skills: Knowledge(Religion) 8 ranks, Concentration 8 ranks.
Feats: Divine Metamagic, 1 of the following- Fell Drain, Fell Weaken(from Libris Mortis, aka LM), Extra Turning.
Spells: Must be able to cast divine spells.

Saves/Attack/Hit Die
Saves: High Fortitude and Will save progression, low Reflex save progression.
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4 progression. (ie, as a Cleric or RSoP)
Hit Die: d8
-not sure of the HD increase is a big deal.

Skills
Skills per level: 2 + INT
Class Skills: As RSoP.

Spellcasting
Full spellcasting. Doombringer levels also stack in regards to turning/rebuking undead.

Abilities
This is where things get interesting.

Extra Turning/Rebuking: At level 1, the Doombringer gains either the Extra Turning or Extra Rebuking feat.

Lingering Curse: When any Doombringer casts a spell that incurs a negative penalty (such as Bestow Curse, but not Cause Fear) the duration is increased by one, as if the Doombringer had an additional caster level. Has no effect on spells with a static duration.

Immortal Fortitude: At level 2, a Doombringer is immune to all diseases, mundane or magical.

Irresistible Curse: At level 2, whenever a Doombringer casts a spell that incurs a negative penalty, the DC to resist the spell is increased by 2.

Fate's Grasp: Starting at level 3, enemies within 10 feet of the Doombringer take -1 on all saves.

Bonus Domain: At level 5, the Doombringer can gain access to the Fate or Entropy domain, or any domain of his chosen deity if he worships a non-good deity.

Empowered Curse: At level 6, spells that incur a negative penalty have their penalty increased by 50%. (ie, Doom gives a -3 penalty instead of -2).

Negative energy burst: At 8th level, the Doombringer gains the Profane Lifeleech feat, even if he does not meet the normal requirements. A positive cleric must spend 3 turning attempts to use this feat, however.

Sealed Fate: At 10th level, a spell that incurs a negative penalty is affected by the Extend Spell feat. This does not increase the caster level of the spell. Apply this before the effect of Lingering Curse.

--end of description--

That's what we have so far. Biggest points of concern that I have are the Irresistible Curse, Empowered Curse, and Sealed Fate abilities.

I'll edit some more in later, mostly details on the intended effect of this class etc.

Why would you have what is quite possibly the most broken feat in the game as a prereq? Never mind that, I'll peach in a bit, but first let me do you this favor:

NAME OF CLASS
{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Spells

1st|
+0|
+2|
+0|
+2|Extra Turning/Rebuking, Lingering Curse|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+0|
+3|Immortal Fortitude, Irresistible Curse|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

3rd|
+2|
+3|
+1|
+3|Fate's Grasp|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

4th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4||+1 level of existing spellcasting class

5th|
+3|
+4|
+1|
+4|Bonus Domain|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

6th|
+4|
+5|
+2|
+5|Empowered Curse|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

7th|
+5|
+5|
+2|
+5||+1 level of existing spellcasting class

8th|
+6|
+6|
+2|
+6|Negative Energy Burst|+1 level of existing spellcasting class

9th|
+6|
+6|
+3|
+6||+1 level of existing spellcasting class

10th|
+7|
+7|
+3|
+7|Sealed Fate|+1 level of existing spellcasting class [/table]
Tables make things easier. If you don't know how to make them, look here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313).
Edit: Uh, I'm going to go ahead and reword some of what you wrote:

Extra Turning/Rebuking: At level 1, the Doombringer gains either the Extra Turning or Extra Rebuking feat as a bonus feat.

Lingering Curse: The Doombringer casts spells that incur a negative penalty (such as Bestow Curse, but not Cause Fear) at +1 Caster Level, but only for the purposes of determining duration.

Immortal Fortitude (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a Doombringer is immune to all diseases, mundane or magical.

Irresistible Curse (Su): Starting at 2nd level, whenever a Doombringer casts a spell that incurs a negative penalty, the save DC to resist the spell is increased by 2.

Fate's Grasp (Su): Starting at 3rd level, enemies within 10 feet of the Doombringer take a -1 penalty on saving throws.

Bonus Domain: At 5th level, the Doombringer gains access to an additional domain. This can be either the fate or entropy domain, or any domain the cleric has access to because of his deity.

Empowered Curse (Su): Starting at 6th level, when a Doombringer casts spells that incur a negative penalty the penalty is increased by 50%. (eg, Doom gives a -3 penalty instead of -2).

Negative energy burst: At 8th level, the Doombringer gains the Profane Lifeleech feat, even if he does not meet the normal requirements. However, a cleric that turns undead must spend 3 turning attempts to use this feat.

Sealed Fate (Su): Starting at 10th level, any spell the Doombringer casts that incurs a negative penalty is affected as if by the Extend Spell feat. The spell's level does not change.

[Drolyt]

You don't give up anything to take this class.
Irresistible Curse is too powerful. A +2 DC increase is huge.
Fate's Grasp is even worse. It is essentially Spell Focus (all effects and helps your allies too, and stacks with everything!).
Empowered Curse is probably overpowered, I'm not terribly familiar with DeBuffs.
No idea what Negative Energy Burst does.
Sealed Fate seems okay.

[NMBLNG]

Ok. So it's pretty broken. Good thing you caught it 'cause there was a chance that the DM would have accepted it as is.

In reply to balance concerns:


You don't give up anything to take this class
What could a cleric give up then? The only things they have to lose are caster levels, turning/rebuking, and versatility. RSoP loses versatility, mostly because of class requirements. Would stricter class requirements for this class help?


Irresistible Curse is too powerful. A +2 DC increase is huge.
Yeah, I figured it would be too much. Do you think a +1 increase would be reasonable? If that's still too much, then perhaps limit to a number of spells per day?


Fate's Grasp is even worse.
I'm willing to debate on this one. It's a 10ft aura on a spellcasting class, on a build that's not supposed to be in close combat. I could see dropping the HD to d6 or d4 to help this, though. A -1 to hit and damage rolls could also work. Mostly I see this as a keep-monsters-away / defensive ability, rather than close offensive.


Empowered Curse is probably overpowered, I'm not terribly familiar with DeBuffs.
At higher levels, it probably is. (Take a look at the spell Bestow Greater Curse.) An alternative would be to give a static bonus to the effect of those spells.


No idea what Negative Energy Burst does.
From Libris Mortis. Deals 1d6 to all living creatures in 30ft, friend or foe. You get healed for the amount of damage you do. Uses 2 rebuking checks to use.



Sealed Fate seems okay.
Really? It seems a bit lackluster for the final level of a prestige class, where you'll be at least level 15. I'll have to go look at some of the higher level spells, and see how a change in duration would affect them.

Thanks for the feedback. :smallbiggrin:

::edit::
Drolyt, are you a Yooper or a Troll?

[Drolyt]

What could a cleric give up then? The only things they have to lose are caster levels, turning/rebuking, and versatility. RSoP loses versatility, mostly because of class requirements. Would stricter class requirements for this class help?

Stricter requirements might help, as could dropping the hit die down to d6. The problem is that the requirements you have aren't exactly bad options, so they aren't really sacrificing anything. Crappy options like Combat Casting are better, but that's for arcane PRCs.

Yeah, I figured it would be too much. Do you think a +1 increase would be reasonable? If that's still too much, then perhaps limit to a number of spells per day?
+1 DC might be reasonable. Debuffs aren't the best anyways, so +1 should be fine I think.

I'm willing to debate on this one. It's a 10ft aura on a spellcasting class, on a build that's not supposed to be in close combat. I could see dropping the HD to d6 or d4 to help this, though. A -1 to hit and damage rolls could also work. Mostly I see this as a keep-monsters-away / defensive ability, rather than close offensive.

Hmm, well at 10 feet I guess It's more or less okay, I missed that. Maybe make it affect both friend and foe?

At higher levels, it probably is. (Take a look at the spell Bestow Greater Curse.) An alternative would be to give a static bonus to the effect of those spells.

Static bonuses are more easily balanced.

From Libris Mortis. Deals 1d6 to all living creatures in 30ft, friend or foe. You get healed for the amount of damage you do. Uses 2 rebuking checks to use.

Oh. That's cool I suppose.

Really? It seems a bit lackluster for the final level of a prestige class, where you'll be at least level 15. I'll have to go look at some of the higher level spells, and see how a change in duration would affect them.
It is lackluster, I was only checking for overpowered.

Thanks for the feedback.
Welcome.

Drolyt, are you a Yooper or a Troll?
Yooper? No, I'm from Grand Rapids. Yoopers are Canadians trying to invade my state and feed me maple syrup. (jk).

[NMBLNG]

Got some sleep, and thought of some different/more appropriate abilities:

At level 10, remove Sealed Fate and replace it with:
Catastrophe(Su): While scrying, a Doombringer may attempt to cast a curse-like spell* on the scrying target. A Doombringer may attempt this as many times as he or she pleases, but only once per scrying spell, and only once per day on a given individual.

*Limited to Doom, Bestow Curse, and Bestow Greater Curse. May possibly be extended to other spells.

At level 6, remove Empower Curse and replace it with Sealed Fate.

Change Irresistible Curse so that increases the DC by 1, not 2.

I'm also thinking about adding an ability at levels 1, 5, and 10 that cumulatively add +1 vs spell resistance, for a total of +3 at level 10. The bonus only applies to the debuff spells.

I haven't had time to do any research on feats for prerequisites, though. That may have to wait until the weekend.

[Drolyt]

Got some sleep, and thought of some different/more appropriate abilities:

At level 10, remove Sealed Fate and replace it with:
Catastrophe(Su): While scrying, a Doombringer may attempt to cast a curse-like spell* on the scrying target. A Doombringer may attempt this as many times as he or she pleases, but only once per scrying spell, and only once per day on a given individual.

*Limited to Doom, Bestow Curse, and Bestow Greater Curse. May possibly be extended to other spells.

At level 6, remove Empower Curse and replace it with Sealed Fate.

Change Irresistible Curse so that increases the DC by 1, not 2.

I'm also thinking about adding an ability at levels 1, 5, and 10 that cumulatively add +1 vs spell resistance, for a total of +3 at level 10. The bonus only applies to the debuff spells.

I haven't had time to do any research on feats for prerequisites, though. That may have to wait until the weekend.

I'd say keep empowered curse, just nerf it. Sealed fate should go instead of Lingering Curse, which functions oddly. Anyways I like Catastrophe. I'll have more to say latter.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I can't help but feel that this class is having a bit of trouble for the following reasons:

It's hard to define what a "debuff" spell is, and what constitutes a "penalty."
Stacking penalties for debuff spells rapidly escalates to crazy levels, as each one makes the next more likely to hit.
It doesn't seem to emphasize the spells as much as it just makes them strictly better, which, when put into class form, means 10 levels of minor abilities that can, if not carefully watched, really mess up balance.

As a very active homebrewer myself, I've found that minor static abilities tend to be uninteresting when compared to active abilities that give new uses and angles on a character. Also, for something as specific as this class, a 5 level format might be more fitting (IMHO, of course).

If you're requiring Fell Drain and Fell Weaken to enter the class, I'd recommend making those abilities the focal point. Otherwise I'd focus on a specific angle of debuffing (negative energy attacks, for example, or the bestow curse spell, which is amazingly versatile) and tailor the abilities all in that direction rather than trying to spread them out so much.

In short, I'd like a better idea of what you intended the class to do before I can really comment. Why does this particular version of the "I'm better at debuffing" idea merit a Prestige class rather than feats, or merely the Spell Focus feat and a debuff-heavy feat selection? What makes it special?

Once we know that, we can refine the class you've presented to us here.

*All advice and thoughts are IMHO, and tied to my somewhat unique perspective of class design. Take it as you will.*

[Dante & Vergil]

If you do go the debuffing route, you should make this for Arcane casters, as they get the best spells in this category, and there is not much support for it.