Lvl 20 wiz-killer monk (3.5) [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

paddyfool

2010-02-04, 04:52 AM

You'd need magic items to make yourself invisible, silent, and unscryable, maximise hide & move silently to back this up, and further magic items to cancel out his tricks visavis always going first in combat. With that kit, any melee class could walk right up to and full attack him before he does anything, and if you pump your damage enough, you should leave him a smear on the ground. (But even then... he'd likely have a contingency, so you'd need to pay some wizard lots of moolah to set you up with counter-contingencies).

Killer Angel

2010-02-04, 04:55 AM

Congrats on that will save. I had in mind straight monk. As for leadership ... no. Just no. All I am talking about is a silly amount of XP and lvls for a monk with no leadership.

and leaving aside all the broken loops with candles, etc.

Well, it can be done... but how many levels you'd need, it's highly debatable.
The point is: it's not the monk winning the match, but his epic WBL.
We saw (in previous threads and arena matches) that even a fighter 20 can sometime beat a wizard 13, but the thing happened mostly thanks to the differences in money-equipment.
So, the same could be applied to a Wiz 20 Vs a Monk xx, but the things get A LOT more complicated.

magic9mushroom

2010-02-04, 05:05 AM

Well, if it's not a cheesed wizard, you get total immunity to anything allowing SR if you have a few levels on him. That helps. Also, you're a monk, so you have high speed.

The problem is the wizard's Foresight meaning he gets immediate actions, meaning in turn he can use Celerity and win. To counteract this, you'd want a silly-huge initiative check and some sort of wondrous item that can cast Greater Celerity.

You'd want at least as many levels as you need to get Vorpal Strike, and hope you get lucky, or something methinks.

Tokiko Mima

2010-02-04, 05:46 AM

Essentially, you're dragging 20 levels of a class that does very little in the way of combat vs. a wizard. Don't count on any of your monk abilities saving the day here. The wizard easily counters/one-ups everything a monk has. You will be buying victory via equipment and whatever feats you can get. The good news is that as long as he doesn't have epic spellcasting, it's concievably possible that you could win.

It would help if you could multiclass out to a slightly less awful base class.. something with full spellcasting would be ideal. But that would defeat the point of being a monk, wouldn't it? Defeat his initative tricks, or at least copy them, but make sure your initative count is much higher. Go first, then kill him the exact same way he would kill you, instantly in the surprise round and with extreme prejudice. The best way to beat a wizard is always going to be with another wizard, but if you can't have one then you can always UMD/fake being one yourself with enough cash.

If I had to ballpark it, I would say you could afford the items you need to outwizard a level 20 wizard by ECL 30 or so. Maybe earlier? Just buy stuff like you were a wizard, pump your UMD to the point where it won't fail ever and outfit yourself with spells from items.

Ashram

2010-02-04, 05:49 AM

That requires level 22. Your cohort has to be 2 or more levels less than you.

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) would like to have a word with you.

Kurald Galain

2010-02-04, 05:52 AM

This guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66567) may be relevant, and also this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80888). Both give invaluable advice in how to deal with near-epic wizards when you're a glorified pick punchpocket.

magic9mushroom

2010-02-04, 06:14 AM

Improved Cohort (Heroes of Battle) would like to have a word with you.

Can that stack with Thrallherd for a thrall the same level as you?

faceroll

2010-02-04, 06:20 AM

Here's how you do it:
Gain protection from divinations using your insane WBL.
Don't be a kobold.
Wear full plate.
Take the feats that let you deflect an infinite number of things that use ranged (touch) attack rolls to attack you.
The wizard makes the foolish mistake of hurling an orb at you.
He dies.

Really, though, this is pretty meta-gamey, since the playground has a huge wet spot for orb spells, and you're taking advantage of the fact that the wizard has no way of knowing you can hurl his crap right back at him.

paddyfool

2010-02-04, 06:27 AM

@Faceroll,

I like that solution. Even if he knows you're a monk, he might use an orb to get around your SR anyway...

Eldariel

2010-02-04, 06:31 AM

faceroll: Chances are the first reflected Orb will just set off a Contingency from the Wizard and there won't be a second. He'll most likely waste Maws of Chaos or similars after he 'Ports back; becoming a Chaotic Outsider could be beneficial. Also, Exceptional Deflection is an epic feat.

Spell Reflection is nice, except gaining sufficient Touch AC to dodge the True Striked Orbs after losing all item abilities is gonna be hard.

@OP: You could optimize Basketweaving. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080416121951rn_1/forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-593140)

Tokiko Mima

2010-02-04, 06:44 AM

I think it's probably a bad idea to let the wizard have an action. Orb'ing someone to death with direct damage is difficult to stop, but if you give the wizard a chance to act, you never know what spell combination he'll fire off, especially since he knows his divinations have failed on you and that's a clue about the level of the threat as well.

What if he decides to toy with you instead of going for the kill, and drops a Timestop > Dimension Lock > Whirlwind of Teeth > Forcecage combination on you instead? You can prepare for this situation (Rod of Cancellation,) but there's a dozen dozen nasty tricks wizards have, and if you forget even one then you'll be suffering for it. I really think the best way is to slaughter him before he gets his first action... it's the only way you're sure that you'll still be standing when your next action comes up.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 06:47 AM

Being one who has dabbled with UMD/UPD builds, I can decently assume that 22nd level would be sufficient to reliably beat down a pre-epic 20th level wizard? Why? Epic wealth trumps many, many things, and wizards are not exempt from that rule. Yes, you'll likely have an absurd gear list just to combat the wizard, but I feel as though at that point it becomes a money war rather than an ability war. An epic character can simply BUY immunity to death effects, Mind Blank, AC, etc.

Which leads to the question: Can an epic level character protect himself against things that would strip him of this wealth? Namely, can an epic level character protect against disjunction? The answer, at least outside of core, is a worrisome 'yes'.

Edit: An interesting trick that anyone with absurd wealth can do. Spellbooks, as per Complete Arcane, may be trapped. Additionally, as per the trap section, if you want to have an automatic reloading, touch-triggered area spell trap, you can (500 x Spell Level x Caster Level gp). This means that any person with the chaotic subtype (or the means of gaining it) can simply walk around with a trapped spellbook with Maw of Chaos imprinted on to it, and lay waste to all those that dare approach with naught but a free action taptap to the book. But, as I state above, this is more to do with wealth than character ability.

This is one of the reasons why my personal belief is that class comparisons must be done at levels with relatively low wealth (read: MUCH less than 700k), because at that point the gear does the talking, not the character. At least, if you're willing to dumpster dive for said gear.

Cyclocone

2010-02-04, 07:56 AM

You know, if you were a Black Ethergaunt/Elemental Weird/Cronotyryn/Immoth/whathaveyou, you'd only need one level of Monk... Right? Right??

...

Ahem. Anyway, if you buy a scroll of Teleport Through Time (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b), you can definately kill the Wizard before he can cast a spell (as in, before he can cast a spell).

And ofcourse, with Epic WBL you could buy an at-will item of Wish, which would give you on-demand access to all 8th level or lower spells like Mindblank, Veil of Undeath, Energy Immunity etc.

Eldariel

2010-02-04, 08:12 AM

Being one who has dabbled with UMD/UPD builds, I can decently assume that 22nd level would be sufficient to reliably beat down a pre-epic 20th level wizard? Why? Epic wealth trumps many, many things, and wizards are not exempt from that rule.

The real question is, what does WBL matter anymore? Every class is capable of generating infinite amounts of money at that point (some more efficiently than others) so it should really be a zero-sum.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 08:14 AM

The real question is, what does WBL matter anymore? Every class is capable of generating infinite amounts of money at that point (some more efficiently than others) so it should really be a zero-sum.

Ah, right. I made the assumption that loop tricks weren't in effect. I suppose you've got a point there. If that's the case, then it boils down to who can dumpster dive for items the best and use them in conjunction with their skill set. Which still presents an issue with little impact stemming from class levels. Each person will have an arbitrarily high bonus for each skill, for initiative, etc.

Eldariel

2010-02-04, 08:19 AM

Ah, right. I made the assumption that loop tricks weren't in effect. I suppose you've got a point there. If that's the case, then it boils down to who can dumpster dive for items the best and use them in conjunction with their skill set. Which still presents an issue with little impact stemming from class levels. Each person will have an arbitrarily high bonus for each skill, for initiative, etc.

Well, that depends on whether custom items exist in this multiverse or if you're only limited to printed items; there's a very real cap to what printed items can accomplish. I think +12 is the highest stat bonus in print, for example. It also depends on the multiverse economy and the exact functioning of Wish a bit. Sufficient to say, we lack the parameters to make anything beyond educated guesses on the matter.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 08:30 AM

Well, that depends on whether custom items exist in this multiverse or if you're only limited to printed items; there's a very real cap to what printed items can accomplish. I think +12 is the highest stat bonus in print, for example. It also depends on the multiverse economy and the exact functioning of Wish a bit. Sufficient to say, we lack the parameters to make anything beyond educated guesses on the matter.

True. But there are enough printed sources of, say, initiative boosters, that getting a +40 initiative by 20th level is perfectly doable. As is getting a decently high score in whatever skill you feel like boosting. If you wanted a monk that could at least defend against a caster's tricks, you would simply need a high enough UMD/UPD check to cast the requisite immunity-granting scrolls and such. Granted, I can't say I'd know how such a character would actually attempt to BEAT the wizard in question, but I know that toe-to-toe combat is at least possible, if not probable. It's one of those situations where there's such a plethora of source material to sift through that 'smart' combat at that level gets hazy, so it's difficult to judge who has the better chance of winning. The default method of judgement, then, usually gets pushed to the inherent class abilities, which I feel to be a flawed choice.

AgentPaper

2010-02-04, 08:33 AM

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 08:37 AM

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

Oof, tough one. I would think the answer boils down to "Whoever can spam disjunction often enough to succeed, and then follow up with token sure-kill."

Which leads to the answer "Whoever has better action economy to do so" which, while one would usually think the Wizard, I think the Monk has a fair chance via Psionics (that isn't to say the Wizard can't use Psionics either, but the existance of such powers as Synchronicity make efficient action use a very...curious thing). So then the answer would be "At whatever epic level such that the monk's bonus feats allow for near-equal action economy abuse".

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 08:43 AM

Sinfire Titan

2010-02-04, 09:08 AM

All of them.

+1. In before Giacomo.

AstralFire

2010-02-04, 09:15 AM

This challenge is more interesting if the Wizard is defined so we do not get people doing Schrodinger's Wizard as well as "well, I would never allow that" games.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 09:16 AM

+1. In before Giacomo.

See, blanket statements like that don't really contribute, especially when you don't provide evidence to support your claims. I'll admit, in a core game you're quite probably right (as most monk discussions bizarrely end up), but splatbooks open up such a variety of options that you actually do have to sit down and consider them, especially at the upper levels where the dividing lines between full casters and improvisational non-casters blur.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 09:19 AM

Well, if it's not a cheesed wizard, you get total immunity to anything allowing SR if you have a few levels on him. That helps. Also, you're a monk, so you have high speed.

It does help... but SR becomes more and more of a joke the further you get outside core.

And even in core-only, it does nothing to stop summons/polymorph, nor is it easier to increase SR than it is to increase CL.

Mushroom Ninja

2010-02-04, 09:30 AM

Okay, more interesting question: How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to beat a level 20 straight-classed human wizard, with both characters being limited to level 20 WBL?

I think this boils down to "How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to survive the first few killing blows from the wizard?"

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 09:37 AM

I think this boils down to "How many epic levels would a straight-classed human monk need to survive the first few killing blows from the wizard?"

Depends on the Monk and the depends killing blows of which you speak. If they require saves, the Monk could actually fare well due to naturally good saves and the ease of which one can increase saves. If they require RTAs (such as Orbs), the Monk might have Ray Deflection. If it's something like Maw, there are ways to get Mettle via magic items (Tabard of Valor is the prime example).

Which circles back to whoever has better offensive/defensive action economy, and by what degree of superiority.

Akal Saris

2010-02-04, 10:36 AM

Just going by WBL, I'd guess a level 22 monk might conceivably manage it if he buys the right defensive items and could go first/catch the wizard in his sleep/make the wizard waste a round on something the monk is prepared for, etc. The wizard would still probably win though.

More likely level 24 would mean 2-3 epic feats and a lot, lot more money, so at that point I'd put my money on the rich monk.

One of the problems with these threads is that a theoretical wizard could have any spell prepared which could go through any defense the monk might conceivably have, which really isn't useful to the situation we have here, where you might have a wizard who prepped foresight, time stop x2 and gate x2, or you might have a crazy evoker with meteor storm x5.

Cyclocone

2010-02-04, 10:53 AM

Well, it doesn't matter what the Wizard prepped, since he could (and should) also have any one of a number of different ways of casting spontaneously, like Uncanny Forethought.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 11:05 AM

Mushroom Ninja

2010-02-04, 11:10 AM

Lysander

2010-02-04, 11:13 AM

Empty Body is a (Su) ability IIRC. It don't work in no antimagic fields.

You don't activate the torc until you're in position, using the antimagic field to return you to the material plane.

Telonius

2010-02-04, 11:15 AM

Huh, looks like the forum may have eaten my post. Anyway, I was going to suggest a Ring of Sequestering. It defeats any attempt to use Divination on the subject, and renders the subject invisible (but not comatose, like the usual Sequester spell does). The Monk still might trip off some contingencies, but he'll have the advantage of the wizard not specifically having been prepared for him.

Aldizog

2010-02-04, 11:18 AM

Empty Body is a (Su) ability IIRC. It don't work in no antimagic fields.
Since activating an AMF effect supresses the Empty Body effect, wouldn't the monk be shunted back to the Material Plane? Empty Body would resume if the AMF were removed (it is only supressed, not dispelled), but it's not like plane shift; it just makes you ethereal while it is active. Therefore, if it isn't active, you shouldn't be ethereal. You pop back to the Material with your newly-active AMF.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 11:29 AM

I still want to see a wizard optimise himself to specifically take out monks.

Use Planar Binding to Bind Level 20 Monks. Turn them into fast-moving cannon fodder. Knowing that if you somehow make it to Level 20 = unwilling minion will make people fa less willing to become Monks. Within 2 generations there are none left.

Done :smallcool:

Lysander

2010-02-04, 11:31 AM

Since activating an AMF effect supresses the Empty Body effect, wouldn't the monk be shunted back to the Material Plane? Empty Body would resume if the AMF were removed (it is only supressed, not dispelled), but it's not like plane shift; it just makes you ethereal while it is active. Therefore, if it isn't active, you shouldn't be ethereal. You pop back to the Material with your newly-active AMF.

Right. Then you start pummeling the wizard on your surprise round. You also win initiative once actual battle starts, so you get a second turn before the wizard can act. Of course thanks to stunning fist the wizard never gets to act at all.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 11:53 AM

Contigency spells? Non-functional.

Unless, of course, the contingency was "if an antimagic field would enter my square" - in which case it will fire just before you get the drop on him, and before being suppressed.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 12:32 PM

Unless, of course, the contingency was "if an antimagic field would enter my square" - in which case it will fire just before you get the drop on him, and before being suppressed.

I would rule that being able to predict the future (to know that an ethereal monk is about to appear in an antimagic field) is too "complicated or convoluted" a condition and the contigency wouldn't be valid.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 12:37 PM

I would rule that being able to predict the future (to know that an ethereal monk is about to appear in an antimagic field) is too "complicated or convoluted" a condition and the contigency wouldn't be valid.

He said if an Antimagic Field is about to enter my square, nothing about an ethereal monk.

A single, specifically mentioned spell can't be too complicated really can it?

MickJay

2010-02-04, 12:45 PM

Use Planar Binding to Bind Level 20 Monks. Turn them into fast-moving cannon fodder. Knowing that if you somehow make it to Level 20 = unwilling minion will make people fa less willing to become Monks. Within 2 generations there are none left.

Done :smallcool:

How would you increase the HD limit of Planar Binding to do that, and how would you make the monk actually obey you (and prevent him from escaping, either due to MR when he's summoned, or later) once he's bound? Plus, the Monk can refuse impossible or "unreasonable" commands, as per spell's description, and "become my unwilling minion" is less than reasonable. ;)

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 12:46 PM

I would rule that being able to predict the future (to know that an ethereal monk is about to appear in an antimagic field) is too "complicated or convoluted" a condition and the contigency wouldn't be valid.

A contingency to prevent an AMF from coming into contact with a wizard is a very reasonable precaution for him to take.

Most wizards dislike antimagic.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 12:57 PM

How would you increase the HD limit of Planar Binding to do that, and how would you make the monk actually obey you (and prevent him from escaping, either due to MR when he's summoned, or later) once he's bound? Plus, the Monk can refuse impossible or "unreasonable" commands, as per spell's description, and "become my unwilling minion" is less than reasonable. ;)

Malconvoker increases it by 2.

If the alternative is torture for the rest of eternity on my personal demiplane, I think death as a minion is a fair deal.

Of course this requires the Wizard to be a colossal douche, and so may not be appropriate to all campaigns.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 01:00 PM

He could focus on Evil monks, offering them redemption through a good cause.

PB is Will Negates though.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 01:08 PM

A contingency to prevent an AMF from coming into contact with a wizard is a very reasonable precaution for him to take.

Most wizards dislike antimagic.

Just predicting the future in general is pretty convoluted. I could definitely see it working if there's a pre-existing antimagic field on the same plane as you that's approaching, but reacting to something that hasn't happened yet...

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 01:18 PM

Just predicting the future in general is pretty convoluted. I could definitely see it working if there's a pre-existing antimagic field on the same plane as you that's approaching, but reacting to something that hasn't happened yet...

Reacting to something that hasn't happened yet is the whole point of contingency. Complete Arcane: a contingency can even trigger if you would die or become helpless.

MickJay

2010-02-04, 01:18 PM

Malconvoker increases it by 2.

If the alternative is torture for the rest of eternity on my personal demiplane, I think death as a minion is a fair deal.

Of course this requires the Wizard to be a colossal douche, and so may not be appropriate to all campaigns.

Yeah, but then it stops working once the Monk hits lev. 21 (or if he had any racial dice or LA). Plus, the Monk has a few opportunities to break out of the spell each day.

(partially ninja'd)
@Optimystic: I agree with the general idea, but isn't setting the contingency to activate before something happens a bit too poweful an effect to actually work? I'd still call it "convoluted" and not allow it. You could as well try to set it to activate "when I'm about to die", or "immediately before I'd be hit by an effect that would disable me" (rather than the more reasonable "when I die" or "when I'm incapacitated").
edit: is that the actual wording in CA, that the spell can activate before the effect? I would have problem with that, it's just too powerful. :smallannoyed:

Being nasty as I am, I wouldn't let that particular contingency be set off anyway. I mean, what kind of "my square" was the wizard talking about? :smallbiggrin:

Lappy9000

2010-02-04, 01:21 PM

I know, I know, what you're thinking. Not another monk thread, let alone a speculation about dumpster tier(monk) defeating a lvl 20 epic tier (wizard) class. But I am a curious guy and would like some opinions on how much epic lvls should monk take, to be able to defeat a lvl 20 wizard with all his overpowered magic?

Just a speculative question.It would be better if you could point out the specific wizard, his spells in question that would be prepared for the fight, and anything else of note to keep this conversation from degenerating.

Ganurath

2010-02-04, 01:21 PM

Ideally, a Monk could take a Wizard down with the following:

1. Improved Grapple and stats favoring the build, along with what mundane boosts can be had.
2. Max ranks in Hide and Move Silently, plus mundane boosts to the skills such as feats and Masterwork Items.
3. Two continuous custom antimagic field items.
4. A flying mount, just in case.

Plan is this: AFI blocks off the Wizard knowing that you're coming, allowing you to sneak up and grapple the opponent to death. If the arcanist finds out you're coming by mundane means, odds are even a 20th level Wizard won't have enough Disjunctions to avoid exposing themself to you and letting you close the gap. If they do, you can use that Dimension Door ability Monks to move in so that you can grapple them with an attack of opportunity. If we go non-Core, we can use Sun School to attack immediately and the Mage Slayer chain to bypass (and dispel) buffs.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 01:25 PM

And assuming we're using sane rules and only allowing the wizard ONE contingency at a time...that means he's not protected against any other sort of nasty surprise.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 01:25 PM

If you're worried about AMFs, use my tinfoil hat (ie, mithral or dark wood) trick. Then he'd have to spend his next round trying to bust through the barrier in his way, after which you could either just dimension door out or walk away and cast a spell.

VERY easily done by level 20, and it can be set up days (or years) in advance, meaning it should be doable (and standard-issue) by any non-specialist wizard in Core (and most of the specialist wizards as well).

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 01:28 PM

Being nasty as I am, I wouldn't let that particular contingency be set off anyway. I mean, what kind of "my square" was the wizard talking about? :smallbiggrin:

"within 5 feet of my person"

And assuming we're using sane rules and only allowing the wizard ONE contingency at a time...that means he's not protected against any other sort of nasty surprise.

Actually, you can bear one contingent spell per level (using Craft Contingent Spell, that is, rather than the actual Contingency spell.)

Lysander

2010-02-04, 01:30 PM

Reacting to something that hasn't happened yet is the whole point of contingency. Complete Arcane: a contingency can even trigger if you would die or become helpless.

Yeah, but the contigency must still react to something. It can't preact. Contigency to teleport away from existing threats is fine, contigency to teleport away from future threats isn't. A contigency "take me away from any anti-magic fields that approach me" is straightforward. "Take me away from any anti-magic fields that approach me or will exist in the future" is not.

The thing is "complicated and convoluted" doesn't refer to how the contigency is phrased, it's how complicated the condition is. Even a very simple sentence can still imply a really complicated set of variables. This is why wizards can't win bets by casting "Contigency: Levitate me one inch off the ground immediately if that horse over there is going to win next week's race"

Ganurath

2010-02-04, 01:30 PM

Actually, you can bear one contingent spell per level (using Craft Contingent Spell, that is, rather than the actual Contingency spell.)Core only is a two way street, no?

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 01:32 PM

Core only is a two way street, no?

I'm sorry, I didn't see where the OP specified that condition.

Lappy9000

2010-02-04, 01:32 PM

Actually, you can bear (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140757) one contingent spell per level (using Craft Contingent Spell, that is, rather than the actual Contingency spell.)Fixed. Apparently, we're not over yet.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 01:42 PM

I would not allow Craft Contingency to be allowed in ANY game, and do not personlly consider myself in this exercise. It would be like allowing Pun Pun for the Monk. You'll certainly beat the crap out of the wizard with your RAW-legal build...but does it matter? Is any sane DM going to allow it? No.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 01:52 PM

Frosty

2010-02-04, 01:55 PM

For that matter, no sane DM allows Epic either.

Not RAW epic, no. Which is why I',m in the process of writing my very own Epic system, which very much happens to look like non-epic but with better feats and more PrCs.

AirGuitarGod32

2010-02-04, 01:56 PM

There's a PrC from Dragon Magazine Compendium thats Monk who specialises in Mage-Wasting. focus on breaking the Player's will, not the wizard's. Either that, or go as follows:

Race: Human Dragonborn (Mind)
Alignment: LN
Class: Monk 2/Swordsage 3/Fist of the Forest 5/Acolyte of the Fist 10/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 10

Feats: Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Flying Kick, Improved Natural Weapon (Unarmed Strike)

Items: Monk's Belt, Kamas of the Scorpion (x2)

other: a Prayer or two!

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 01:58 PM

Fixed. Apparently, we're not over yet.

That thread is grizzly enough without me contributing to it any further.

I would not allow Craft Contingency to be allowed in ANY game, and do not personlly consider myself in this exercise. It would be like allowing Pun Pun for the Monk. You'll certainly beat the crap out of the wizard with your RAW-legal build...but does it matter? Is any sane DM going to allow it? No.

I have to admit, wearing 20 contingencies could be a bit excessive. I don't see anything wrong with preparing one against an AMF though.

A simple dispel magic destroys them in any event.

Xenogears

2010-02-04, 02:07 PM

(Tabard of Valor is the prime example).

Where is that from?

Frosty

2010-02-04, 02:07 PM

Yes, ONE against anti-magic is fine.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 02:08 PM

Where is that from?

Complete Champion, it grants Mettle when you are at half health. Actually, I'm pretty sure all the Valor items do stuff at half health.

Sir Giacomo

2010-02-04, 02:23 PM

Here's one possible tactic.

Get an AMF projecting item like an antimagic torc. Sneak up on the wizard by using Empty Body to go ethereal and move within the floor, in case they have some kind of permanent See Invisibility. When you're adjacent to the wizard activate the antimagic field and drop back to the material plane. Congratulations, you're a melee fighter standing next to a guy with no useful powers, functional items, or abilities whatsoever. Foresight? Negated. Contigency spells? Non-functional. Stunning fist him into oblivion.

That is actually quite a good idea. Usually for such high levels I'd advocate a time stop effect first, moving close to the wizard and then activating an AMF (works also in core). But with empty body it is way more monk-ish. :smallsmile:

Contingencies are also often overrated as escape pods, since in normal gameplay it is impossible to allow for all kinds of threats. Also, contingency depends a lot on interpretation (will the contingency work when the condition occurs? Or after? etc).

More important for a situation of a wizard 20 vs monk 20 is how a both classes fare in the "I find you before you find me" competition.
The wizard has the strategic advantage (divination spells), but the monk has the tactical advantage (stealth skills).

So it's highly situational how a confrontation would play out, I guess - but certainly the monk does not need epic levels to have a chance.

- Giacomo

PS: for those who do not know it yet :smallamused: that monk guide of mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80704) has some ideas on this question - and somewhere in the pages 40-60 the issue of a high-level duel of monk vs wizard is brought up....

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:10 PM

More important for a situation of a wizard 20 vs monk 20 is how a both classes fare in the "I find you before you find me" competition.
The wizard has the strategic advantage (divination spells), but the monk has the tactical advantage (stealth skills).

I could disagree via Mindsight and a single level of Mindbender, but Mindsight is a ridiculous feat that probably wasn't meant to see PC eyes. Nevertheless, there are quite a few detection methods that make even the Darkstalker feat worthless, so I wouldn't say said monk has the tactical advantage. Especially when the wizard has a Phantom SpeedSteed that has a cruising velocity of 240 feet per round.

I do agree with your thoughts on contingencies. Too many people take for granted that the wizard will, ahem, 'magically' have the right contingency. This is difficult to agree with in that, considering the convoluted circumstances by which most mage-killing techniques work, wording contingencies is hard. I mean really, being able to phrase a contingency such that you get teleported to such and such location is fine, but to do so immediately upon being subjected to an anti-magic field effect? That you probably can't detect beforehand due to planar shenanigans? There are limits to rationality. Additionally

edit: Additionally...I seem to have lost part of this post? Odd.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 03:13 PM

Logalmier

2010-02-04, 03:14 PM

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:16 PM

The ONLY problem is, activating the item of antimagic is a Standard action. How're you going to stunning-fist the wizard into oblivion when you've spent your move action and standard action getting next to him and using the torq?

Out of core? With whatever standard action-granting method you darn well please. In core? You bring a gullible helper along for the ride to activate the torc, placing you in prime position for a punch. That's assuming nothing else is being contested, which I'm sure plenty will be. :smallwink:

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 03:17 PM

Unfortunately, having high ranks in Hide and Move Silently does not affect a level 20 wizard from scrying on you. Unless you mean something else when you say stealth skills.

No, their high will save does that.

Though that can be defeated as well.

Out of core? With whatever standard action-granting method you darn well please.

Which ones of those function in an AMF?

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 03:17 PM

Logalmier

2010-02-04, 03:20 PM

No, their high will save does that.

Though that can be defeated as well.

That's true, but I'm interested to know what he meant by "stealth skills."

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-02-04, 03:21 PM

More important for a situation of a wizard 20 vs monk 20 is how a both classes fare in the "I find you before you find me" competition.
The wizard has the strategic advantage (divination spells), but the monk has the tactical advantage (stealth skills).Looking at the ToS, there are 3 massively OP detection methods that are nearly impossible to hide from. Touchsight(Psion Power), Lifesight(feat, requires being undead), and Mindsight(feat, requires telepathy). Those beat anything, shy of certain niche builds that are almost impossible for PCs. Mindsight especially makes tactical hiding impossible for anyone without either Mindless or a certain BoED spell, and is doable for a Wizard. It's just not worth it outside of high-optimization games where Darkstalker is present.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:21 PM

Which ones of those function in an AMF?

Belt of Battle. Use the swift action to gain a standard, which is used to start the AMF. Use your actual standard to attack.

Silly rebuttal is silly.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-02-04, 03:22 PM

Belt of Battle. Use the swift action to gain a standard, which is used to start the AMF. Use your actual standard to attack.

Silly rebuttal is silly.No Swift action during a Surprise round.

mostlyharmful

2010-02-04, 03:22 PM

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:24 PM

No Swift action during a Surprise round.

Win initiative, thus obviating the whole argument by getting a standard action from your newly gotten turn?

I was never really a fan of the SURPRISE! NO MAGIC! tactic. There's got to be a more succinct way of doing it. Something like preventing the caster from casting via violence and annoying concentration checks.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 03:25 PM

Belt of Battle. Use the swift action to gain a standard, which is used to start the AMF. Use your actual standard to attack.

Silly rebuttal is silly.

You do not have enough time to activate your swift action before the Wizard's Contingency activates if you try to useit after you enter within 5 ft of him. Well I guess you could, but you'd need to activate your belt of battle at one Move-action away, at the beginning of your turn.

Actually, one could argue that gaining an additional action is a BUFF, which gets suppressed by the AMF anyways, so no dice.

You're really better off spending 3 feats to get Thicket of Blades.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 03:26 PM

Silly rebuttal is silly.

It was a genuine query, actually.

And as Frosty pointed out, does not address the Contingency.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 03:27 PM

intelligent torc, renders it a free action (speech)

An intelligent being is like bringing an extra person into battle. It's now 2v1. notr within the parameters of the fight.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:28 PM

It was a genuine query, actually.

And as Frosty pointed out, does not address the Contingency.

My mistake then, and I thought the assumption was sneaking up on the wizard (for some reason on the Material Plane) via the Ethereal Plane. Doing so negates most of the classic detection methods, and provides a somewhat decent window of opportunity to prep before the showdown. And unless the Shrodinger contingency somehow factors in monks using a belt of battle for an AMF being casted on the Ethereal Plane, I'm not sure how that comes in to play.

Of course, why a 20th level wizard is still hanging around on the material plane is beyond me, but that's apparently an axiom of the current debate.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 03:29 PM

The ONLY problem is, activating the item of antimagic is a Standard action. How're you going to stunning-fist the wizard into oblivion when you've spent your move action and standard action getting next to him and using the torq?

Activating the torc happens before battle begins, so it doesn't use up any kind of action. Combat doesn't start until you return to the material plane. Once you arrive you get a surprise round. Then you roll initiative, probably win, and get another turn. So the monk gets two whole turns before the wizard can even react.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 03:32 PM

Activating the torc happens before battle begins, so it doesn't use up any kind of action. Combat doesn't start until you return to the material plane. Once you arrive you get a surprise round. Then you roll initiative, probably win, and get another turn. So the monk gets two whole turns before the wizard can even react.

Umm...if you activate the Torq first, how the hell are you going to sneak up to the wizard? Remember this nifty spell called Foresight?

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 03:34 PM

Umm...if you activate the Torq first, how the hell are you going to sneak up to the wizard? Remember this nifty spell called Foresight?

Once again, one of the axioms was that Empty Body would allow a method of movement that the wizard might not immediately detect, thus allowing you to sneak. Additionally, you're talking about casting Foresight somewhere around 6 times per day to keep it up daily, but that's besides the point.

Sinfire Titan

2010-02-04, 03:34 PM

Umm...if you activate the Torq first, how the hell are you going to sneak up to the wizard? Remember this nifty spell called Foresight?

Screw the Torq, grab a Staff of Antimagic Ray and Greater Dispel Magic. Open with GDM, activate Belt, and follow up with the AMR.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 03:43 PM

Umm...if you activate the Torq first, how the hell are you going to sneak up to the wizard? Remember this nifty spell called Foresight?

Foresight is basically spider-sense. It doesn't provide warning far in advance, just a split second before you take damage. You activate the anti-magic field before you attack, thus preventing foresight from giving them an insight bonus. I could see an argument for saying that Foresight would still prevent the monk from getting a surprise round though. A Ring of Sequestering should block Foresight as well as scrying attempts since Sequester stops all divinations from detecting the target.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 03:51 PM

Open with GDM, activate Belt, and follow up with the AMR.

Good luck with that - we're talking a lot about the items the monk would be using, but not so much about the Wizard's gear. What high level wizard would be without a Ring of Greater Counterspelling, a Ring of Enduring Arcana, or both?

mostlyharmful

2010-02-04, 03:57 PM

Good luck with that - we're talking a lot about the items the monk would be using, but not so much about the Wizard's gear. What high level wizard would be without a Ring of Greater Counterspelling, a Ring of Enduring Arcana, or both?

I'm also fond of a ring of arcane might, a magic tattoo, a bead of karma, a Spell Power High Arcana and maybe even a light touch of Circle Magic while we're being cheesey.... good luck with that Item based dispel, plus if you start throwing AMFs around then you get into the problem of called minions, immediate action spells + foresight, contingencies, initiative rolls and all sorts as has been mentioned in this thread, this isn't something that the Monk wins at. at all.

Then you've got the Clone problem, if the Monk wins the Wizard auto wakes up pissed and informed about the monk, if the Monk loses his soul gets sucked into some inescapable nastiness... putting a high level character down and keeping them that way are two seperate things.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:01 PM

Then you've got the Clone problem, if the Monk wins the Wizard auto wakes up pissed and informed about the monk, if the Monk loses his soul gets sucked into some inescapable nastiness... putting a high level character down and keeping them that way are two seperate things.

That's actually solved via Complete Warrior, if I'm not mistaken. Just grab the weapon material that sucks the souls out of the fallen and you're good to go.

And yes, dumpster diving makes debate screwy and hard to continue.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 04:03 PM

Once again, one of the axioms was that Empty Body would allow a method of movement that the wizard might not immediately detect, thus allowing you to sneak. Additionally, you're talking about casting Foresight somewhere around 6 times per day to keep it up daily, but that's besides the point.

And how does Empty body work while inside an AMF? (Su) abilities don't work inside one.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:05 PM

And how does Empty body work while inside an AMF? (Su) abilities don't work inside one.

I believe that was the point Gia made back on the last point. You snuck up on the E-Plane, activated the Torc, get shunted back on to the Material Plane due to the AMF, and started combat with the AMF in place and you pretty darn close to the wizard.

If I'm not mistaken.

Overshee

2010-02-04, 04:06 PM

Well this seems like a stalemate. I think that the end result is that if we are arguing that a very well armed Monk could defeat a Wizard, there are a lot of options the Wizard has itemwise that can counter the Monk's advantages, again bringing up the issue of the raw power of the classes in question.

Out of curiosity, how much more effective would a Slayer be vs. a wizard (assuming magic/psionic transparancy [and thus the bonuses Slayer gets to psionic creatures to magic as well])

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 04:06 PM

Question: How do you locate the wizard from the Etheral plane, since you can only see for about 60 feet while in it?

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:08 PM

Question: How do you locate the wizard from the Etheral plane, since you can only see for about 60 feet while in it?

Addendum: Why is the wizard on the material plane to even attempt this trick on?

Yes, there are flaws with this current plan.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:09 PM

And how does Empty body work while inside an AMF? (Su) abilities don't work inside one.

Standard: Empty Body
***END ROUND***
Move: Move up to wizard
Swift: Belt of Battle
Bonus Standard: Antimagic Field
Standard: Punch

This was said, oh 3 times? Maybe more?

Frosty

2010-02-04, 04:10 PM

Even if on the Material plane...how did you find the wizard? Get an item to try to scry the wizard?

Standard: Empty Body
***END ROUND***
Move: Move up to wizard
Swift: Belt of Battle
Bonus Standard: Antimagic Field
Standard: Punch

This was said, oh 3 times? Maybe more?

I said that too, but the poster I was responding to worded it badly and confused me.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:23 PM

Here's one possible tactic.

Get an AMF projecting item like an antimagic torc. Sneak up on the wizard by using Empty Body to go ethereal and move within the floor, in case they have some kind of permanent See Invisibility. When you're adjacent to the wizard activate the antimagic field and drop back to the material plane. Congratulations, you're a melee fighter standing next to a guy with no useful powers, functional items, or abilities whatsoever. Foresight? Negated. Contigency spells? Non-functional. Stunning fist him into oblivion.

You don't activate the torc until you're in position, using the antimagic field to return you to the material plane.

So, that fairly explicitly explains the time you use the Torc.

Belt of Battle. Use the swift action to gain a standard, which is used to start the AMF. Use your actual standard to attack.

Silly rebuttal is silly.

And this fully explains how to use the Belt of Battle. Use the Belt, then start the Torc. Hard to get much simpler and still use complete sentences.

Also, what do you mean by this, is it relevant?

Actually, one could argue that gaining an additional action is a BUFF, which gets suppressed by the AMF anyways, so no dice.

If you get a standard action, and use it, it activates. The Belt is the only thing magic, and it is done being used a full step before the Torc is activated. If you say the standard action is magical, and is suppressed in an AMF, I have to honestly say that doesn't matter. The AMF comes into effect instantaneously after the standard. If you argue the standard is not done, and the AMF suppresses the standard, does it matter? The AMF came into effect just fine, who cares if the standard officially finishes?

I have absolutely no idea what you are saying.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 04:30 PM

Standard: Empty Body
***END ROUND***
Move: Move up to wizard
Swift: Belt of Battle
Bonus Standard: Antimagic Field
Standard: Punch

This was said, oh 3 times? Maybe more?

Empty body, movement through the ethereal plane, activating the torc all happen before battle. They don't require combat actions, at this point you're still just operating under normal time. Combat doesn't actually start until you're on the same plane as the wizard (right after activating the AMF).

So it's:

BEFORE COMBAT: Empty body, move up to wizard, AMF
*COMBAT BEGINS*
SURPRISE ROUND: Attack
*END ROUND*
ROUND 1: Stunning Fist

And for bonus points coat your fists in every single known contact poison. As a monk you're immune, but the wizard will have to make several saving throws as soon as you hit him.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:32 PM

And for bonus points coat your fists in every single known contact poison. As a monk you're immune, but the wizard will have to make several saving throws as soon as you hit him.

Assuming that A. They aren't also immune, B. The plan worked in full, and C. Poison can be stacked.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 04:34 PM

Assuming that A. They aren't also immune, B. The plan worked in full, and C. Poison can be stacked.

Why wouldn't poison stack? Coat each finger in a different one.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 04:35 PM

Standard: Empty Body
***END ROUND***
Move: Move up to wizard
Swift: Belt of Battle
Bonus Standard: Antimagic Field
Standard: Punch

This was said, oh 3 times? Maybe more?You can get a single punch in, but 1.) I doubt you'll even hit due to the means a wizard has to ensure that exact thing doesn't happen (tons of ways for a wizard to stack miss-chances and really high potential AC), 2.) you'll have to find ways to deal with all of the potential escape routes a wizard has, such as clones, astral projections, contingencied teleports/dimension doors, shrink item'd hats made from emanation-blocking materials that suddenly expand when exposed to an antimagic field, which then ensure the wizard is no longer surprised (and can use the contingency mentioned previously), and 3.) you'll have to ensure that the punch is a one-hit KO, since there are numerous ways to become immune to stunning (including haunt shift, polymorph, shapechange, no-ASF armor with heavy fortification, and simply being out of range), 3.) you'll actually have to get to the wizard, since it's very likely he'll have many, many, many unlimited-duration minions (lesser/greater/planar bindings, animate undead'd undead, a familiar which has been augmented through means both inexpensive and enduring, etc etc etc).

I can do all of this on one wizard without having to expend much in the way of non-renewable resources, and most of which are available in Core.

Basically, the monk either needs to find a very badly prepared wizard, be really, REALLY lucky, or have DM-pity fiat.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 04:35 PM

If you use the AMF, you LOSE your extra standard action. Hence, you're still next to the wizard with no actions, understand? Again, abuse AoOs instead of doind shenanigans to get extra actions.

Lycanthro: The wizard will likely have 10 + Dex bonus in terms of AC since AMF wil shut off things like polymorph, maigcal items, etc. Getting the hit in isn't the problem really once you're actually there. It's getting there that's difficult.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 04:37 PM

I still need to know how the monk tracks the wizard down.

Sinfire Titan

2010-02-04, 04:37 PM

You can get a single punch in, but 1.) I doubt you'll even hit due to the means a wizard has to ensure that exact thing doesn't happen (tons of ways for a wizard to stack miss-chances and really high potential AC), 2.) you'll have to find ways to deal with all of the potential escape routes a wizard has, such as clones, astral projections, contingencied teleports/dimension doors, shrink item'd hats made from emanation-blocking materials that suddenly expand when exposed to an antimagic field, which then ensure the wizard is no longer surprised (and can use the contingency mentioned previously), and 3.) you'll have to ensure that the punch is a one-hit KO, since there are numerous ways to become immune to stunning (including haunt shift, polymorph, shapechange, no-ASF armor with heavy fortification, and simply being out of range), 3.) you'll actually have to get to the wizard, since it's very likely he'll have many, many, many unlimited-duration minions (lesser/greater/planar bindings, animate undead'd undead, a familiar which has been augmented through means both inexpensive and enduring, etc etc etc).

I can do all of this on one wizard without having to expend much in the way of non-renewable resources, and most of which are available in Core.

Basically, the monk either needs to find a very badly prepared wizard, be really, REALLY lucky, or have DM-pity fiat.

Even with the AMF active, there's a way out of it in Lords of Madness. Invoke Magic>Dimension Door. The price tag is meaningless at the level we're talking about.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:38 PM

You'll note I didn't come up the idea, just restated it. Didn't even really state it more clearly, as it was hard to misinterpret the way it was said originally.

I completely disagree with it, by the way, and think that playing a traditional monk is one of the worst sways to go about fighting a wizard.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:38 PM

If you use the AMF, you LOSE your extra standard action. Hence, you're still next to the wizard with no actions, understand? Again, abuse AoOs instead of doind shenanigans to get extra actions.

Cite please. Additionally, I believe 'win init, get a fresh turn' was already stated as the followup to that scenario.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:39 PM

If you use the AMF, you LOSE your extra standard action. Hence, you're still next to the wizard with no actions, understand?

No, I do not. What the hell are you saying? The extra standard has to be used after the normal one? Is that what you are saying? Because if not, there is no way to possibly interpret the Belt of Battle to mean you lose that standard action after you used it.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 04:43 PM

Empty body, movement through the ethereal plane, activating the torc all happen before battle. They don't require combat actions, at this point you're still just operating under normal time. Combat doesn't actually start until you're on the same plane as the wizard (right after activating the AMF).The encounter happens as soon as one is aware of the other, or the moment one of them makes a move intended to be at all aggressive; as such, these actions take place on the surprise round.

So it's:

BEFORE COMBAT: Empty body, move up to wizard, AMF
*COMBAT BEGINS*
SURPRISE ROUND: Attack
*END ROUND*
ROUND 1: Stunning FistMorelike:

BEFORE COMBAT: Monk sees wizard (or wizard sees monk)
*COMBAT BEGINS*
SURPRISE ROUND: Empty body
etc.

And for bonus points coat your fists in every single known contact poison. As a monk you're immune, but the wizard will have to make several saving throws as soon as you hit him.Contact poisons are used as soon as they come into contact with flesh. If you coat it on your hand you're exposed to it, meaning the poisons are used and thus wasted (if you're immune). This could (possibly) be useful on a warforged, given that they're not actually fleshy creatures, and maybe on other constructs, but most humanoids, monstrous humanoids, etc wouldn't be able to do this.

Lycanthro: The wizard will likely have 10 + Dex bonus in terms of AC since AMF wil shut off things like polymorph, maigcal items, etc. Getting the hit in isn't the problem really once you're actually there. It's getting there that's difficult.And that will be nullified by having the tinfoil hat trick. Shrink item on an object large enough to cover you, which is suppressed in an antimagic field. The emanation is blocked, and you had to expend virtually nothing in resources unless you decide to permanency it (and even then it's a heck of a deal, since a Large, heavy, sharp-tipped cone is definitely useful to have, even excluding AMFs).

9mm

2010-02-04, 04:44 PM

I still need to know how the monk tracks the wizard down.

MAGIC! duh...
oh who are we kidding, fighter lockdown is the clossest you'll ever get to a non-magical mage killer, Monks just can't cut the mustard

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:44 PM

I completely disagree with it, by the way, and think that playing a traditional monk is one of the worst sways to go about fighting a wizard.

Agreed. (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/11/090511fa_fact_gladwell?printable=true) You don't go after a goliath by fighting normally. You use every trick you can think of, and half of the ones you can't. The problem is the scope; 20th level presents a LOT of options, and the fact that an entire board can't come to a conclusion about a competent, let alone effective attack plan should indicate the complexity of the problem at hand.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 04:44 PM

No, I do not. What the hell are you saying? The extra standard has to be used after the normal one? Is that what you are saying? Because if not, there is no way to possibly interpret the Belt of Battle to mean you lose that standard action after you used it.

Yes, I am saying that you'd use up your extra standard action AFTER your normal one.

Signmaker: Winning initiative is a perfectly valid strategy at this point, but it is not 100% reliable. Are you SURE you can win initiative? If you lose init, the Wizard gets to act and we all know how that goes...

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:47 PM

Signmaker: Winning initiative is a perfectly valid strategy at this point, but it is not 100% reliable. Are you SURE you can win initiative? If you lose init, the Wizard gets to act and we all know how that goes...

Depends on how devoted the wizard is to spell-less initiative pumping. But assuming an out of core context, without AMF (as it's proving to be inefficient)? 98% certain.

And you do really need to cite where A. You lose magic-granted actions and B. There's a predefined order to how extra actions are taken. The first I can see stemming from, say, losing Eyes of the Oracle, but that's a spell that's non-instantaneous, and largely irrelevant to the discussion. The second? Not so much.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 04:48 PM

The Belt of Battle is entirely unneeded. You get two full turns before the wizard without any magical enhancement thanks to your surprise round and winning initiative.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:48 PM

Yes, I am saying that you'd use up your extra standard action AFTER your normal one.

Why do you say that? Is there a rule I am missing?

Also, the Belt is magic. Using the Belt is using magic. The Belt's magic, however, is instantaneous. Therefore, the turn is not magic. Ergo, the turn is unaffected.

EDIT: Ugh... 1) How is winning initiative guaranteed? 2) Surprise round is not a full round.

Also, whether or not all that crap is done in battle or out of battle is completely irrelevant as long as the wizard doesn't know it's a battle.

Sinfire Titan

2010-02-04, 04:52 PM

The Belt of Battle is entirely unneeded. You get two full turns before the wizard without any magical enhancement thanks to your surprise round and winning initiative.

What? Since when did Wizards lose Init to a Monk? Ever? Nerveskitter, Improved Init (in exchange for Scribe Scroll no less), Warning Eager Spiked Gauntlet, and a higher natural Dex score means the Wizard has the best odds.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 04:53 PM

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:55 PM

What? Since when did Wizards lose Init to a Monk? Ever? Nerveskitter, Improved Init (in exchange for Scribe Scroll no less), Warning Eager Spiked Gauntlet, and a higher natural Dex score means the Wizard has the best odds.

All of those can be gotten with 20th level wealth, as well as init rerolls via, say, Court of Thieves -> Lucky Start. Really, the only major init-booster I'm aware of that wizards have priority over is insightful divination.

Sinfire Titan

2010-02-04, 04:55 PM

Well, not all of that works in an AMF.

The surprise round is spent moving into the Ethereal Plane. How the hell is the AMF all ready active?

sofawall

2010-02-04, 04:58 PM

The surprise round is spent moving into the Ethereal Plane. How the hell is the AMF all ready active?

The entire point of the strategy is that the wizard doesn't know about the monk until the AMF is already up. That is the entire point of being ethereal to begin with. It's helpful to understand a strategy before tearing it apart. At least that way, you can attack the actual flaws, instead of the points that are actually in its favour.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 04:59 PM

I think it's time we dropped the Ethereal AMF trick. It clearly doesn't work, as Pharoah has pointed out (finding the wizard?), and makes far too many assumptions. Can we move on, then?

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 04:59 PM

Lysander

2010-02-04, 05:02 PM

I think it's time we dropped the Ethereal AMF trick. It clearly doesn't work, as Pharoah has pointed out (finding the wizard?), and makes far too many assumptions. Can we move on, then?

I mean, we're also assuming that the wizard and the monk have any reason to fight each other. Why are they enemies to begin with? Why doesn't the wizard make his own demiplane and peacefully study new spells there while the monk peacefully meditates in a monastary?

Ethereal/AMF is one strategy that MIGHT work in a scenario where the monk can somehow track the wizard down and ambush him. The odds aren't good but there's a chance of success. In different scenarios (the two encountering each other at the same time, the wizard ambushing the monk instead) you'd need different tactics.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 05:03 PM

Ok, how about this. Instead of saying "The wizard can do hundreds of things", let's start saying what things he'll be doing. We can then see what the monk can do to counter it. We can keep track of expenditure from both sides (to make sure the wizard is not a Shroedinger's) and to see how high the monk has to go.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 05:03 PM

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 05:04 PM

I mean, we're also assuming that the wizard and the monk have any reason to fight each other. Why are they enemies to begin with? Why doesn't the wizard make his own demiplane and peacefully study new spells there while the monk peacefully meditates in a monastary?A wizard did it?

Maybe the wizard was bored and used suggestion on the monk to give himself a bit of fun pulling wings off of helpless flies?

Ok, how about this. Instead of saying "The wizard can do hundreds of things", let's start saying what things he'll be doing. We can then see what the monk can do to counter it. We can keep track of expenditure from both sides (to make sure the wizard is not a Shroedinger's) and to see how high the monk has to go.So what are you suggesting, a duel of sorts? Build 1 vs build 2?

How many years has the wizard had between each of his levels so we know how many thousands of planar bound minions he has and how many genesis'd demiplanes he's got under his belt?

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 05:06 PM

[Double-post]

Lysander

2010-02-04, 05:08 PM

How many years has the wizard had between each of his levels so we know how many planar bound minions he has and how many genesis'd demiplanes he's got under his belt?

Let's assume that planar binding done en masse brings all kinds of retribution that even a level 20 wizard can't handle. Enslaving one or two outsiders might go unnoticed, enslaving hundreds is going to seriously piss off a lot of creatures that can do everything the wizard can and more.

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 05:09 PM

So what are you suggesting, a duel of sorts? Build 1 vs build 2?

How many years has the wizard had between each of his levels so we know how many planar bound minions he has and how many genesis'd demiplanes he's got under his belt?

To the first, I think what Sofa is trying to do is to see how 'far' a monk can go with WBL before it runs out. A significant number of 'unbeatable without preparation' tricks to follow the run-out means that the wizard wins, 100%.

And for the sake of "Let's not massacre him too much", I think we're going with 20th WBL (as Agent Paper suggested), and limited downtime prepping (which essentially counts as an infinite loop otherwise).

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 05:10 PM

Let's assume that planar binding done en masse brings all kinds of retribution that even a level 20 wizard can't handle. Enslaving one or two outsiders might go unnoticed, enslaving hundreds is going to seriously piss off a lot of creatures that can do everything the wizard can and more.He pulls in a fiendish ant colony. 1 million+ critters to be PAO'd into whatever you want, and it's doubtful anyone's going to notice, much less care.

To the first, I think what Sofa is trying to do is to see how 'far' a monk can go with WBL before it runs out. A significant number of 'unbeatable without preparation' tricks to follow the run-out means that the wizard wins, 100%.

And for the sake of "Let's not massacre him too much", I think we're going with 20th WBL (as Agent Paper suggested), and limited downtime prepping (which essentially counts as an infinite loop otherwise).Well, how much cheese is banned before the whole situation becomes meaningless? I mean, there're a lot of abuses available very early on. I can get infinite wishes at or before level 7, without breaking (or even bending) any rules. Core-only.

Where's the sweet-spot between 'abuse' and 'just plain broken'?

RAW, or RAI? Because RAI says a wizard should be a plain vanilla fireball blaster.

OracleofWuffing

2010-02-04, 05:10 PM

I mean, we're also assuming that the wizard and the monk have any reason to fight each other. Why are they enemies to begin with? Why doesn't the wizard make his own demiplane and peacefully study new spells there while the monk peacefully meditates in a monastary?

The Monk heard through a collection of (owl)bears (tongue of the sun and moon, remember?)* that people had said that Monks are universally regarded as weaker than Wizards in theoretical practices. Feeling that he has learned everything about improving himself from spending (X+Y)(X+Z)^2 years underneath a noisy waterfall, he feels that the best way to expand his knowledge and thus his perfection is to best a Wizard.

Meanwhile, the wizard was just studying spells and yet another fleshbag comes in and tries to kill him. Screw that.

*Upon a cursory glance of the SRD listing of Tongue of the Sun and Moon, it appears that this is not actually possible. This enables Monks to talk to all living creatures, but it does not actually appear to grant Monks the ability to comprehend the language that they speak. Whatever, it's fluff anyways.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 05:29 PM

*Upon a cursory glance of the SRD listing of Tongue of the Sun and Moon, it appears that this is not actually possible. This enables Monks to talk to all living creatures, but it does not actually appear to grant Monks the ability to comprehend the language that they speak. Whatever, it's fluff anyways.

Is says speak with not speak to. That would imply they can understand.

You know, that Tongue of the Sun and Moon is a pretty overlooked talent. It means you can walk up to any living creature, even epic monsters, and start making diplomacy checks. You could attempt to recruit anything alive as an ally against the wizard. Get some charisma boosting items and you're set.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 05:30 PM

Is says speak with not speak to. That would imply they can understand.

You know, that Tongue of the Sun and Moon is a pretty overlooked talent. It means you can walk up to any living creature, even epic monsters, and start making diplomacy checks. You could attempt to recruit anything alive as an ally against the wizard. Get some charisma boosting items and you're set.
What does Tongue of the Sun and Moon do that a Comprehend Languages spell doesn't?

Signmaker

2010-02-04, 05:32 PM

What does Tongue of the Sun and Moon do that a Comprehend Languages spell doesn't?

Everything you need the Tongues spell for.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 05:33 PM

Everything you need the Tongues spell for.

Right. That.

So, it's duplicated by two low level spells.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-04, 05:33 PM

What does Tongue of the Sun and Moon do that a Comprehend Languages spell doesn't?

Lets you talk back. You need Tounges.

Freaking Ninja and reply ninja. Serves me right for dealing with the microwave.

JaronK

2010-02-04, 05:42 PM

Are we allowed to use templates here? Because Ferral would really help the Monk, giving him Flurry. Combining that with Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and the usual assortment of charge increasers (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Battle Jump) and damage increasers (Improved Natural Attack, etc) you can at least ensure that one hit will kill and you have a ton of attacks... which gives you the option of running up and killing the Wizard without needing any actual magic of your own (and thus you can do it in an AMF). Mage Slayer and Piece Magical Concealment are of course critical.

Of course, there are still Wizard defenses that are going to be able to deal with this, such as just being a Dire Tortoise or hanging out in a Flowing Time Timeless Genesis or having a bunch of Simacrulums. But at least it gives you something to work with.

JaronK

Lysander

2010-02-04, 05:56 PM

Right. That.

So, it's duplicated by two low level spells.

It far more than Tongues. All Tongues does is let you speak every language. Monks can hold conversations with things that don't even have a language. It's like Speak With Animals x1000. That means you can communicate and perhaps befriend every single living creature there is, including magical beasts, oozes, aberrations, plants, vermin, basically everything but constructs and undead.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 06:00 PM

It far more than Tongues. All Tongues does is let you speak every language. Monks can hold conversations with things that don't even have a language. It's like Speak With Animals x1000. That means you can communicate and perhaps befriend every single living creature there is, including magical beasts, oozes, aberrations, plants, vermin, basically everything but constructs and undead.

Well, you could befriend them, if Monks had a lick of Charisma.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 06:32 PM

Of course, all this assumes the wizard isn't immune to damage.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 06:35 PM

Of course, all this assumes the wizard isn't immune to damage.

we're not talking about a templated wizard here.

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 06:39 PM

we're not talking about a templated wizard here.

No, just one with spells.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 06:42 PM

we're not talking about a templated wizard here.Or a wizard using haunt shift to inhabit a riverine object. Or a wizard using the abrupt jaunt ACF. Or one with a raven familiar readying the command word for the wizard's shrink item'd hat. Or one that is using astral projection. Or one that is using any number of spells to change form into, say, a troll, then gaining immunity to fire, acid, and nonlethal damage. Or any other ways to, y'know, make himself immune to damage.

Kurald Galain

2010-02-04, 06:46 PM

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 06:48 PM

Okay, so can I posit "monk 1 / druid 19" as the most likely candidate for killing a lvl-20 wizard? He is a monk, it says so on his character sheet. And, you know, becoming one with nature is a very monkish thing to do.Now that's another haberdashery altogether.

How would we take out a wizard 20 with a monk/druid?

JaronK

2010-02-04, 07:06 PM

Or a wizard using haunt shift to inhabit a riverine object. Or a wizard using the abrupt jaunt ACF. Or one with a raven familiar readying the command word for the wizard's shrink item'd hat. Or one that is using astral projection. Or one that is using any number of spells to change form into, say, a troll, then gaining immunity to fire, acid, and nonlethal damage. Or any other ways to, y'know, make himself immune to damage.

Yeah, all of which is incredibly annoying... and legal for virtually any Wizard to do at sufficient level (and 20 is clearly sufficient). At the end of the day, this is going to boil down to "assuming a Wizard hasn't done X, what can a Monk do?"

Though in all fairness, the riverine object is a bad idea. You're made out of walls of force... an AMF would kill you. Instead, a Hardnened Dwarvencraft Quality Blue Ice body is probably better. Obdurium would have higher hardness, but it's vulnerable to stuff that attacks metal.

JaronK

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 07:08 PM

Though in all fairness, the riverine object is a bad idea. You're made out of walls of force... an AMF would kill you.Err...

"Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

If you're worried about disintegrates and disjunctions, just make sure you're astral projected either before you haunt shift or after.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 07:10 PM

What if we limited the Wizard to the PHB while the Monk gets access to splat-books? Without things like Celerity, it's much easier. And without access to Persist spell, good luck having all those buffs on all the time.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 07:11 PM

Now that's another haberdashery altogether.

How would we take out a wizard 20 with a monk/druid?

Since the monk is epic level, use Epic spellcasting.

Mushroom Ninja

2010-02-04, 07:12 PM

And without access to Persist spell, good luck having all those buffs on all the time.

All the time, not without persist spell. All the time that you're outside of an impregnable defensive position (probably rope trick), much more manageable without persist.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 07:14 PM

All the time, not without persist spell. All the time that you're outside of an impregnable defensive position (probably rope trick), much more manageable without persist.

We are assuming this is an arrogant wizard who's NOT interested in spending time alone inside an impregnable fortress in his own demi-plane.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 07:15 PM

We are assuming this is an arrogant wizard who's NOT interested in spending time alone inside an impregnable fortress in his own demi-plane.He's busy using astral projection while leaving his body VERY well-protected at home.

Good luck, Mr. Monk.

Beorn080

2010-02-04, 07:24 PM

Frosty

2010-02-04, 07:38 PM

He's busy using astral projection while leaving his body VERY well-protected at home.

Good luck, Mr. Monk.

Yeah so? Defeating a projection still counts as defeating. As a DM I'd award exp. It matters not if afterwards the wizard comes back for revenge. Also, as a DM I would rule that you can't use Astral Project back into the material plane to adventure safely.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 07:39 PM

Regarding the Empty body AMF plan, the first thing I would do in the surprise round is nail the wizard with a tanglefoot bag. Nothing like being stuck in an AMF field to get rid of the wizard, and since tanglefoot bags are alchemical and not magical, they still work.Yeah, antimagic fields are very easy to get around, if you plan for them (and what wizard wouldn't?). Antimagic RAYS, however, are more of a nuisance. Not hugely so, but they're still harder to deal with. I'm fairly sure we should forget about AMFs, since they're unreliable, and nerf the monk worse than they do the wizard.

Yeah so? Defeating a projection still counts as defeating. As a DM I'd award exp. It matters not if afterwards the wizard comes back for revenge.Yeah, the wizard could be back within 2 rounds, astral projected again, and better prepared to destroy you. Not exactly a victory.

Also, as a DM I would rule that you can't use Astral Project back into the material plane to adventure safely.Houserules don't count, I'm afraid. Nothing says you can't plane shift back to keep going. Even if you interpret astral projection as not allowing you to re-enter the plane your body is on, nothing says you can't leave your corporeal form on a demiplane of some sort.

JaronK

2010-02-04, 07:39 PM

Err...

"Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this."

Right right, forgot about that.

If you're worried about disintegrates and disjunctions, just make sure you're astral projected either before you haunt shift or after.

If you were made of Blue Ice, the disjunction wouldn't have an effect. Then again, damage could theoretically hurt you, it would just be reduced significantly and usually do nothing (assuming a high enough caster level Hardness spell). I guess it's a tossup in the end.

JaronK

JaronK

2010-02-04, 07:42 PM

Yeah so? Defeating a projection still counts as defeating. As a DM I'd award exp. It matters not if afterwards the wizard comes back for revenge. Also, as a DM I would rule that you can't use Astral Project back into the material plane to adventure safely.

I dunno, if the Wizard's body is back in a Flowing Time 10000 Timeless plane created by his own Genesis spell it can easily be completely fortified, and then the whole astral trick (which is RAW, even if you'd house rule it away) means that the Haunt Shifted foe the Monk fought was just his puppet. As soon as the monk takes out this foe, the Wizard pops back awake and is moving 10,000 times faster, so he opens up a gate and nukes the Monk 5000 times or so before the Monk can even realize that the puppet has been destroyed.

Then he can rebuild the puppet, and have it up again before one round of normal time has even passed.

I'm not sure I'd call that winning. More "mildly annoying and then dying."

And let's face it, most monks can mildly annoy a Wizard and then die. A good insult will do that!

JaronK

jseah

2010-02-04, 07:55 PM

Let's go via the other way. How much does it take to get past all those defenses?

Don't try to optimize for levels. Any time you need more, just take it. A ridiculous number would serve as an upper bound. Even if it's in the hundreds or thousands.

For example:
Monk has access to Planar Touchstone location (to get into the demiplane)
- Level 20

Monk has Additional Magic Item Space + Multispell to activate more than one belt of battle without having to swap stuff out.
- + 6 levels / extra action needed

Money enough to buy Metafaculty castings needed to find wizard
- lots of levels until ML check passes

So, find the wizard's demiplane, go to planar touchstone, meditate for 8 hours, make a (trivial at the levels I'm talking about) knowledge planes check, move in, kill everything and win.

You need a timestop like effect which you can get from... planar touchstone.

So you're walking around in a bubble of timestop, with thousands of actions per round from the X number of belt of battles, able to activate planar touchstone and create a rift to enter the target demiplane, walk in and AMF in his face.
Then have initiative check (from Great Dexterity Epic Feats) and dire tortise form from a UMDed scroll of shapechange (EDIT: crafted by an initiate of mystra), and punch his face in.

Sounds like it will work. Not much the wizard can do in a time-stopped NI action loop. Contingencies don't go off, nothing goes off, monk is more or less immune to everything since nothing works.

Of course, the amount of belts of battle required to do the 8hour meditate to open a planar rift would be insane. Perhaps someone can find a better way?

Logalmier

2010-02-04, 07:58 PM

Let's go via the other way. How much does it take to get past all those defenses?

This might help. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111843)

It's a list of all the defenses you'd have to negate to get a shot at a high level wizard.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 08:06 PM

Yeah, antimagic fields are very easy to get around, if you plan for them (and what wizard wouldn't?). Antimagic RAYS, however, are more of a nuisance. Not hugely so, but they're still harder to deal with. I'm fairly sure we should forget about AMFs, since they're unreliable, and nerf the monk worse than they do the wizard.

Yeah, the wizard could be back within 2 rounds, astral projected again, and better prepared to destroy you. Not exactly a victory.

Houserules don't count, I'm afraid. Nothing says you can't plane shift back to keep going. Even if you interpret astral projection as not allowing you to re-enter the plane your body is on, nothing says you can't leave your corporeal form on a demiplane of some sort.

I'm afraid it DOES matter. We are already saying that the Wizard is ON the material plane. The wizard himself/herself. This is not about some extra-planar hunt the monk has to go on (in which case he'd hire a level 20 wizard).

Also, I'd definitely award exp even for defeating a "puppet" since it has the abilities and difficulties of a CR20 creature.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 08:11 PM

I'm afraid it DOES matter. We are already saying that the Wizard is ON the material plane. The wizard himself/herself. This is not about some extra-planar hunt the monk has to go on (in which case he'd hire a level 20 wizard). Why in Ao's gall bladder would any wizard past lesser planar binding levels, and working under RAW, NOT be astrally projected? :smallconfused: Did he get hit with a ray of stupidity?

Also, I'd definitely award exp even for defeating a "puppet" since it has the abilities and difficulties of a CR20 creature.But it's not even as effective as hitting it with a hold person spell. Mildly inconveniencing something for a round or 2 doesn't really qualify as 'defeat'. Under any circumstances. It's like bull-rushing him off a cliff, where he hits his feather fall button, casts overland flight in the next round, then starts hitting you with Mildly Inconvenienced Death after a couple of rounds.

Beorn080

2010-02-04, 08:16 PM

How does an AMF field hurt a monk more then a wizard. To paraphrase a dragon, "If we turn off magic, your just a weak wizard, while I, I am still a guy who breaks things with his hands."

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 08:19 PM

How does an AMF field hurt a monk more then a wizard. To paraphrase a dragon, "If we turn off magic, your just a weak wizard, while I, I am still a guy who breaks things with his hands."The monk just turned off all of his Su abilities AND his magic items.

You just cost the wizard a move action to walk away (or possibly a dimension door). Remember the shrink item'd hat I've talked about in this very thread multiple times?

Runestar

2010-02-04, 08:22 PM

Isn't there a swift spell which lets you cast another spell in an AMF?

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 08:23 PM

Isn't there a swift spell which lets you cast another spell in an AMF?Invoke magic. It's 9th level.

Beorn080

2010-02-04, 08:29 PM

Again, thats why I said hit him with a tanglefoot bag. If he can't move out of the field, he can't do anything. Likewise, I'm not sure how that hat would help you. From the description in the SRD, AMF isn't stopped by metals. So you have a wizard with no spells under a metal hat, vs a lvl 20 monk. Honestly, the best way to deal with an AMF would be a half dozen golems in the tower that aren't affected by it.

If your point is "Properly prepared wizard is nigh unkillable except by second, more powerful caster," then yes, you've made it. However, from an in character perspective, this doesn't make sense. If a wizard who can astral project then plane shift back to the material plane while being in an utterly safe location, why isn't everyone slaves to an evil wizard? To someone that powerful, he would simply begin a eugenics program to breed only stupid people, and mindlessly slaughter anyone who showed even the equivalent of an 11 intelligence.

olentu

2010-02-04, 08:34 PM

Optimystik

2010-02-04, 08:35 PM

Again, thats why I said hit him with a tanglefoot bag. If he can't move out of the field, he can't do anything. Likewise, I'm not sure how that hat would help you. From the description in the SRD, AMF isn't stopped by metals. So you have a wizard with no spells under a metal hat, vs a lvl 20 monk. Honestly, the best way to deal with an AMF would be a half dozen golems in the tower that aren't affected by it.

AMF is an emanation - anything that blocks LoE will block it, like wings of cover. (Though that one is sorcerer-only.)

However, from an in character perspective, this doesn't make sense. If a wizard who can astral project then plane shift back to the material plane while being in an utterly safe location, why isn't everyone slaves to an evil wizard?

Because there are good wizards to stop him.

(I almost said good monks with a straight face)

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 08:42 PM

If your point is "Properly prepared wizard is nigh unkillable except by second, more powerful caster," then yes, you've made it. However, from an in character perspective, this doesn't make sense. If a wizard who can astral project then plane shift back to the material plane while being in an utterly safe location, why isn't everyone slaves to an evil wizard?They are. It's just that everyone else is in the Matrix linked together in a maze to fuel his item crafting reservoir.

Beorn080

2010-02-04, 08:48 PM

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 08:50 PM

So wait, if I were to hold a sheet in front of me, the AMF field wouldn't affect me? That seems rather weak. Does that mean a fighter hiding behind a wooden tower shield has all of his magic items still working, assuming he has total cover from the AMF source?Tower shields WOULD work that way...if the text didn't specify that you're affected by magical effects that affect your tower shield. :smallannoyed:

However, you could always use your unseen servant to...

...Oh. Right. Not a caster. :smalltongue:

OracleofWuffing

2010-02-04, 08:50 PM

Also, I'd definitely award exp even for defeating a "puppet" since it has the abilities and difficulties of a CR20 creature.
If an encounter uses Summon Monster or some other such spell, it doesn't increase or decrease the CR of that encounter (presumedly because resources are being expended). That said, yes, the CR system has some really bonkers rules to it and the DM should give out experience whenever he or she so decides.

The issue, however, is whether the monkdruid is task with killing a wizard or the wizard. An astral projected wizard is still a wizard (I'm certain we've all seen the whole duplicate your items trick, same deal), so you've killed a wizard and the wizard gets to win, best of both worlds. If you set out to kill the wizard, on the other hand, that's like killing a Lich while not destroying the phylactery.

Runestar

2010-02-04, 08:54 PM

If a wizard who can astral project then plane shift back to the material plane while being in an utterly safe location, why isn't everyone slaves to an evil wizard? To someone that powerful, he would simply begin a eugenics program to breed only stupid people, and mindlessly slaughter anyone who showed even the equivalent of an 11 intelligence.

They would be. But that wouldn't make for a very interesting campaign setting or novel series now, would it? Instead, we have wizards wasting their time trying to block out the sun for a few seconds "just because they can", just so the good guys actually have a remote chance of defeating him.

Lysander

2010-02-04, 09:23 PM

Astral projection, that's actually very convenient for anyone trying to kill the wizard. Just get some kind of really powerful magic sword and snip the cord (that could probably do the trick). Or some kind of adamantine vorpal weapon, like their own hand. Or if they're astrally projecting all the time it means they're leaving an unconscious body you can target instead.

And here's the best part of astral projection: it's suppressed by an anti-magic field! So if you activate an AMF near an astral copy it'll temporarily wink out of existence. Now where does that leave the wizard? Their copy does not exist. Their body is in a state of suspended animation. That probably leaves the wizard unconscious until the AMF goes away. So all you really need to do to kill the wizard is get an AMF next to their copy and keep it up until someone else can find their helpless body. Or find a way to keep the AMF up there forever, and the wizard will never wake up.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 09:38 PM

Why in Ao's gall bladder would any wizard past lesser planar binding levels, and working under RAW, NOT be astrally projected? :smallconfused: Did he get hit with a ray of stupidity?

But it's not even as effective as hitting it with a hold person spell. Mildly inconveniencing something for a round or 2 doesn't really qualify as 'defeat'. Under any circumstances. It's like bull-rushing him off a cliff, where he hits his feather fall button, casts overland flight in the next round, then starts hitting you with Mildly Inconvenienced Death after a couple of rounds.

Because you've still overcome an obstacle that is worthy of any CR20 difficulty (defeating a puppet in the first place). The DM needs to award exp based on the ACTUAL difficulty of the encounter.

sofawall

2010-02-04, 09:52 PM

Because you've still overcome an obstacle that is worthy of any CR20 difficulty (defeating a puppet in the first place). The DM needs to award exp based on the ACTUAL difficulty of the encounter.

The DM also needs to ban abusive stuff and make sure parties are balanced enough to have fun.

Does this mean that in a thought exercise, going by RAW, he will? Not at all.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 10:02 PM

The DM also needs to ban abusive stuff and make sure parties are balanced enough to have fun.

Does this mean that in a thought exercise, going by RAW, he will? Not at all.

Going by RAW is pretty pointless. For example, I can't use all the stuff here to guage how high a level my monk player needs to be to actually defeat a BBEG Wizard in a real game. It has no bearing on what actually happens.

Also, why are we talking about this then if Astral projection can't be beaten? This doesn't even serve as an intellectual exercise if, even if you kill the wizard, it'snot the real wizard. It's as much intellectual exercise as saying that the monk goes Pun Pun and wins. Technically true by RAW, but it doesn't server ANY purpose at all in a discussion.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-04, 10:34 PM

Going by RAW is pretty pointless. For example, I can't use all the stuff here to guage how high a level my monk player needs to be to actually defeat a BBEG Wizard in a real game. It has no bearing on what actually happens.

Also, why are we talking about this then if Astral projection can't be beaten? This doesn't even serve as an intellectual exercise if, even if you kill the wizard, it'snot the real wizard. It's as much intellectual exercise as saying that the monk goes Pun Pun and wins. Technically true by RAW, but it doesn't server ANY purpose at all in a discussion.I think the point is to show that monks really are worth the tier they're put in, as are wizards.

Frosty

2010-02-04, 10:56 PM

I think the point is to show that monks really are worth the tier they're put in, as are wizards.

We needed to show that? Why? Don't we already know this?

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-04, 10:57 PM

Astral projection, that's actually very convenient for anyone trying to kill the wizard. Just get some kind of really powerful magic sword and snip the cord (that could probably do the trick). Or some kind of adamantine vorpal weapon, like their own hand. Or if they're astrally projecting all the time it means they're leaving an unconscious body you can target instead.
You don't know how to sever the cord, do you?

And here's the best part of astral projection: it's suppressed by an anti-magic field! So if you activate an AMF near an astral copy it'll temporarily wink out of existence. Now where does that leave the wizard? Their copy does not exist. Their body is in a state of suspended animation. That probably leaves the wizard unconscious until the AMF goes away. So all you really need to do to kill the wizard is get an AMF next to their copy and keep it up until someone else can find their helpless body. Or find a way to keep the AMF up there forever, and the wizard will never wake up.

Or the wizard wakes up, which seems the most reasonable result of such action.

Aldizog

2010-02-04, 11:40 PM

Why in Ao's gall bladder would any wizard past lesser planar binding levels, and working under RAW, NOT be astrally projected? :smallconfused: Did he get hit with a ray of stupidity?

In the actual games I've been in, wizards past lesser planar binding levels are NOT astrally projected. I really don't know or care why. In fact, I've never known a wizard in an actual game to use Lesser Planar Binding to get a Wish. Perhaps the players are under the impression that it's a cheesy exploit. Perhaps they feel the DMs would smack them down. Perhaps they don't enjoy taking the arms race in that direction, knowing that if they start, the DM will follow.

What do the actual games you play look like? Does every wizard use that trick? Are there counters to it? Do Gith raiders make a fortune by severing silver cords and looting the corpses? Do the wizards place a bounty on Astral Dreadnoughts? Do the Efreet (I'm assuming that's the Planar Binding victim) just take their subjugation lying down, or are they plotting to wipe out humanity? Would the celestials even care enough to stop them, or would the celestials (and fiends) be likewise frightened of how quickly mortal wizards become gods? Do outsiders bind mortal wizards with their version of Planar Binding? Does this ever-present trick have serious ramifications in the game world and on the kinds of adventures that the PCs see? If you're going to say "RAW implies that by using this trick every wizard of note should be invincible tucked away in his little demiplane," then what else does that imply?

Lysander

2010-02-04, 11:48 PM

You don't know how to sever the cord, do you?

Or the wizard wakes up, which seems the most reasonable result of such action.

Not according to RAW. The spell lasts until it is ended or until your copy body dies. AMF doesn't end it and it doesn't kill it. And your real body is outside the AMF, so it shouldn't be affected.

It doesn't make sense logically either. The only way you'd wake up is if your soul was transported into your body, which itself would be a magical effect. What makes more sense is your soul suffering the same fate as incorporeal creatures caught in an AMF.

Beorn080

2010-02-04, 11:53 PM

Pretty much what I've taken from this thread is that any lvl 20 wizard is unkillable, unless he doesn't have the 19 minimum intelligence to cast 9th level spells, and thus think up all these nifty tricks.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-05, 12:02 AM

Not according to RAW. The spell lasts until it is ended or until your copy body dies. AMF doesn't end it and it doesn't kill it. And your real body is outside the AMF, so it shouldn't be affected.

It doesn't make sense logically either. The only way you'd wake up is if your soul was transported into your body, which itself would be a magical effect. What makes more sense is your soul suffering the same fate as incorporeal creatures caught in an AMF.

Spell ends when you choose for it to. Might be a way out.

Lysander

2010-02-05, 12:20 AM

Spell ends when you choose for it to. Might be a way out.

Except it doesn't last until a point you choose. It lasts until you "desire to end it." If you're not conscious you can't desire anything.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-05, 12:21 AM

Except it doesn't last until a point you choose. It lasts until you "desire to end it." If you're not conscious you can't desire anything.

Please cite where it says that one is unconscious.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 01:04 AM

Methods wizards can use:

(1) Immunity to everything and shapechange/polymorph

(2) Orbity spam of death

(3) Locking characters into place with an AoE. (forcecage or wall of stone are my favorites. Lyre of Building + Wall of Stone can make a pretty hard to break prison.)

Is it impossible? No. Is it impossible if they both have the same WBL, regardless of level? Almost.

Frosty

2010-02-05, 01:07 AM

Well level does matter. A level 1 Wizard will not win against an Epic level Monk, assuming equal amounts of wealth.

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-05, 01:09 AM

Well level does matter. A level 1 Wizard will not win against an Epic level Monk, assuming equal amounts of wealth.

"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!"

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 01:10 AM

Well level does matter. A level 1 Wizard will not win against an Epic level Monk, assuming equal amounts of wealth.

Luckily, this is about a level 20 wizard, or at least, I thought it was, based on the thread title and OP.

Basically, every method thus far that I've seen relies on one of three things:

(1) WBL
(2) Duplicating the wizard's class features via non-class abilities
(3) AMF beatdown

Of these, the most reliable is 2, then 1, with three's odds dropping drastically with a competent wizard.

Of these, the only above method that uses any monk abilities in any way is three, and even then, it's incidental use. The primary focus of all leads one to the conclusion:

Q. How does a monk beat a wizard?

A. By being something other than a monk.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-02-05, 01:10 AM

For all those saying "I wouldn't allow X in my games", WE KNOW. I don't allow Wizards in my games, does that mean the Monk auto-wins? No one will allow the stupidly broken stuff. The problem is, everyone's definition of broken is slightly different. If we want to have a reasonable discussion, level of cheese needs to be decided upon. I recommend banning infinite loops, anything that is Nigh-infinite(Gaterape, Wall of Iron abuse, etc) being limited to 10 iterations, and Genesis being banned. That at least makes this reasonable.

Or just use ToS rules, that way we don't end up with a Dweomerkeeper using something stupid to qualify for Initiate of Mystra.

Frosty

2010-02-05, 01:17 AM

The Glyphstone

2010-02-05, 01:31 AM

Like I have said many times, without limitations of cheese, Pun Pun monk wins.

Unless Pun Pun Wizard wins first?

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-02-05, 01:32 AM

Like I have said many times, without limitations of cheese, Pun Pun monk wins.And like I have said, Pazuzu trick doesn't work well enough for TO. The combatants are limited to getting the first wish through a CoI at 5th level, or earlier if they break the economy. And Wizards can break the economy better, not to mention the very valuable spellbook they can hock.

Frosty

2010-02-05, 02:15 AM

Unless Pun Pun Wizard wins first?

Either way it's not about Wizard vs Monk it's just Pun Pun.

Lycanthromancer

2010-02-05, 02:32 AM

Either way it's not about Wizard vs Monk it's just Pun Pun.In the end, it's always just Pun Pun.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 02:34 AM

Either way it's not about Wizard vs Monk it's just Pun Pun.

+1. As stated previously, the monk victory methods are all based on using aspects of the game which are not class feature, but are dependant on Character level alone.

A level 21 commoner with leadership and the right abilities can have a level 20 wizard.

A epic level commoner can use WBL to be immune to everything, and to nuke the opposition.

An epic level commoner can do the same with AMF.

A level 5 commoner can pun pun as well as a monk.

In other words, every monk point has either ignored the monk's features for something to combat the wizard, or ignored the monk's features for well known rules abuses that trivialize all character classes.

The common link? Nothing used here says that a MONK is the wiz killer. It's all "generic character" kills "lower level generic character".

Frosty

2010-02-05, 02:48 AM

+1. As stated previously, the monk victory methods are all based on using aspects of the game which are not class feature, but are dependant on Character level alone.

A level 21 commoner with leadership and the right abilities can have a level 20 wizard.

A epic level commoner can use WBL to be immune to everything, and to nuke the opposition.

An epic level commoner can do the same with AMF.

A level 5 commoner can pun pun as well as a monk.

In other words, every monk point has either ignored the monk's features for something to combat the wizard, or ignored the monk's features for well known rules abuses that trivialize all character classes.

The common link? Nothing used here says that a MONK is the wiz killer. It's all "generic character" kills "lower level generic character".

Which is why unless we severely limit the cheese, there's realy no point in these discussions. The only monk ability discussed is the ability to turn Ethereal, and technically that can be granted by an item as well.

Sstoopidtallkid

2010-02-05, 02:54 AM

Which is why unless we severely limit the cheese, there's realy no point in these discussions. The only monk ability discussed is the ability to turn Ethereal, and technically that can be granted by an item as well.A 2,000 GP item. Assuming you auto a DC 25 UMD check, which you are going to by level 20

KellKheraptis

2010-02-05, 03:03 AM

Wizards have ways of guaranteeing first initiative in combat, which has nothing to do with initiative modifiers. Dire tortoises, for one.

They also have access to hummingbird familiars, high-Dex forms via polymorph-esque means (including permanent ones such as polymorph any object, foresight, nerveskitter, moment of prescience, and numerous others.

They can become immune to virtually any tactic a monk could possibly employ, and can pull rabbits from their hats that monks can't counter unless the monk knows exactly what trick the wizard has in mind.

And this isn't a Schroedinger's Wizard, either, as a single wizard can pull literally hundreds of tricks out on any given day. Furthermore, the tricks they have available can be swapped out daily, AND the number of tricks they can get access to expands even farther the longer said wizard has to mull over what he can do with the resources at hand. After all, there are lots of Permanent and Instantaneous power-boosters he can spam without using up any long-term resources. Explosive runes, planar binding, polymorph any object, and tons of other spells give permanent benefits for absolutely no resources expended beyond a single spell slot (which is renewed the following day). This means every day expands a wizard's power even without gaining XP via adventuring or whatnot. I mean, you lesser planar bind something to your will (not hard at lvl 20) then PAO it into something very very nasty. Easy power.

You're trying to take out a self-replicating nuclear arsenal with a spoon, a paperclip, and (if you're lucky) a rubber band. Not going to happen unless you're MacGuyver.

Bear in mind also that MacGuyver didn't have the disadvantage of his nemesis always knowing his absolute every move well in advance due to scrying and divination. And as for the AMF bombs and WBL kills...at level 20, a Wizard is unkillable if he wants to be. I believe I even once showed in a post how a proper Tippy/GOD Wizard 20 could stalemate a god (i.e. he couldn't per se win, but he certainly wouldn't die, either). And as for sneaking up on a wizard in his home demiplane...not happening, period. Omnipotent control = autolose. When you can close it off to anything but you, and only a "you" with the proper authentication device (be creative with this term), the chance of infiltration is 0.

EDIT : And for the record, this post isn't disputing your point in the least Lycanthromancer, nay, it is reinforcing it. :D

Frosty

2010-02-05, 03:09 AM

Gods are basically DM-fiat. When you can, as a free action, research and cast "Kill Wizard McMage with no save no matter where or when in the multiverse he is" there's not a lot Wizard McMage can do.

KellKheraptis

2010-02-05, 03:14 AM

Gods are basically DM-fiat. When you can, as a free action, research and cast "Kill Wizard McMage with no save no matter where or when in the multiverse he is" there's not a lot Wizard McMage can do.

That particular example would be a funny once, however, as Wizard McMage remembered to buff up "immunity to death effects." :P Granted the next SDA probably wouldn't be. And as for your custom deities, the example I made was going off of statted gods. A DM using DM Fiat is just that, fiat. Statistically, a Wizard 20 can fend off and evade a god in 3.5. Wrong? Probably. But RAW.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 03:43 AM

Problem with this is that RAW makes several references to Deific level magic being able to ignore many defenses that a wizard may have. For example: Deific divination bypasses every traditional defense a nondeific spell can provide.

This doesn't get into the fact that many of the more powerful deities are epic casters in their own right, with SDA's that essentially allow them to spam wishes like candy.

And that's on the low end of the spectrum, without DM fiat.

olentu

2010-02-05, 04:18 AM

That particular example would be a funny once, however, as Wizard McMage remembered to buff up "immunity to death effects." :P Granted the next SDA probably wouldn't be. And as for your custom deities, the example I made was going off of statted gods. A DM using DM Fiat is just that, fiat. Statistically, a Wizard 20 can fend off and evade a god in 3.5. Wrong? Probably. But RAW.

The custom spell would presumably bypass such a thing. Most easily by not being a death effect.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 04:56 AM

Q. How does a monk beat a wizard?

A. By being something other than a monk.

S'what I keep saying. Wealth is what gives the monk a chance, not his class abilities.

Incidentally, the Riverine trick? Beatable. As is the Astral Projection trick (not 100% sure on this, I need to be careful talking about the RAW regarding Thinaun weapons).

Additionally, the Tanglefoot Bag suggestion isn't the best of ideas, to be frank. It's a nonguaranteed attack roll followed by a nonguaranteed reflex save followed by the wizard simply needing a concentration check to do whatever instantaneous spell of their choice.

In all seriousness, I'm of the belief that our 20+th level monk needs at least a +39 UMD/UPD check. Forget trying to be a monk, that's playing a losing game (as I mentioned way back when). Be a monk with shinies.

Kurald Galain

2010-02-05, 04:58 AM

+1. As stated previously, the monk victory methods are all based on using aspects of the game which are not class feature, but are dependant on Character level alone.
And so we get back to the old maxim that "the most effective monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk".

Gods are basically DM-fiat. When you can, as a free action, research and cast "Kill Wizard McMage with no save no matter where or when in the multiverse he is" there's not a lot Wizard McMage can do.
No, the spell you're looking for is "make Black Mage vomit out his own intestines". We all know how that one turned out :smalltongue:

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 05:00 AM

And so we get back to the old maxim that "the most effective monk is the one that tries hardest at not being a monk".

I see no problem with that. At near-epic levels, even wizards start using non-wizard tricks. Why? Because you can't be picky if you want to win.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 05:05 AM

I see no problem with that. At near-epic levels, even wizards start using non-wizard tricks. Why? Because you can't be picky if you want to win.

The difference? Wizards still use many, many wizard tricks in a relevant fashion, as well as abilities granted by those wizard tricks, such as Metamagic abuse and the like. It enhances a wizard trick (spellcasting).

Yes, a wizard uses WBL and other such things to be better. But still? He is a wizard. And he plays as such.

Basically, wizards typically use WBL to shore up areas magic doesn't cover. They use WBL to enhance casting.
Monks? Use class abilities to enhance WBL. In essence, the tail wags the dog.

Tokiko Mima

2010-02-05, 05:52 AM

There's nothing in the monk class that you could use against a sufficiently powerful wizard. So the monk class itself is irrelevant in this battle. If you came to the fight with 21+ levels of wet noodles it would play out the same way.

(A) You try to play on your own terms, wizard slaughters you. (B) You play on the wizards terms (using WBL to replicate spells), you have at least a 50/50 chance. (C) You outwizard the wizard (using wizard tricks) and you can win with almost absolute certainty.

I think the problem with the way that the OP presented this problem is it contains the implicit assumption that monk would in some way be useful for killing a level 20 wizard. It's just not. Monks are for moving fast and not dying. They don't have any special intrinsic wizard killing ability, and I don't know (aside from wishful thinking) how a reasonable person could believe they did after looking at their class features.

Adamaro

2010-02-05, 06:44 AM

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 06:47 AM

So I thought that MAYBE at some epic point monk with (no magic items) becomes a mind crushing (as Frightfull presence) Bruce Lee who can dodge balors' worpal swords, make a SoD spell saves even before spellcaster casts them and can in the end just wade through time-and-space-reshaping spells to walk to a wizard and jab him in the eye and thus shatters targets spine.

But then again, i am a speculative guy.

Core monk has zero chance assuming you want the full wizard package. Because that would require breaking in to the demiplane the wizard's on, finding the wizard, winning init, and killing the wizard. But because there is at least one "Sorry, but your princess is in another castle" trick, at best you'll beat his clone/projection/twinlookalike. Epic rules don't actually provide all that much more to the challenge, especially if you just want core.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-05, 06:50 AM

Monks are supposed to be Wizard Killers because they have SR, all good Saves and can get within range very quickly.

However Assay Resistance, a million and 1 CL boosters, and a Fly speed/Forcecage make all of these things obsolete.

And so they suck, because their schtick fails.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 06:51 AM

Monks are supposed to be Wizard Killers

I don't really see that conclusion being necessarily correct. Yes, the Monk is most certainly supposed to be durable, and evidence via class abilities shows that the monk was designed to not die as fast as other classes. But being a wizard killer? That's overreaching, I'd think.

Edit: On a separate note, if we're talking about epic monks, forcecages and flight mean nothing. Just throwing that out there. If we're talking about epic, our hypothetical monk has immunity to mind-affecting abilities, illusions, is able to balance on clouds, and can do whatever other epic shenanigans exist.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 06:57 AM

7 pages ... not bad. (didnt really expect a single page)

What I had in mind was no UMDs, no magic items, no PrCs, also none "i start 60 feet way and try to win init.". Just Core monk taking on a lvl 20 buffed wizard coming into a fight with entire wizard fury at his back.

Monk is a wazaaa fighter. He does not wield swords, does not carry armor. Yet monk is supposed to be a sort of a martial-arts killer. (not nowadays wanna-be-Chuck-Norris martial artist. I mean a hard-core okinawan guy from 17th century, who crushes samurais' throat, while the latter is in full armor, swinging a katana)

So I thought that MAYBE at some epic point monk with (no magic items) becomes a mind crushing (as Frightfull presence) Bruce Lee who can dodge balors' worpal swords, make a SoD spell saves even before spellcaster casts them and can in the end just wade through time-and-space-reshaping spells to walk to a wizard and jab him in the eye and thus shatters targets spine.

But then again, i am a speculative guy.

Assuming the above? The monk has a 0% chance, or close to it.

Let's look at the interaction between the Monk and the wizard in round 1:

Monk: Good initiative check, possibly crazy good.
Wizard: Is in the form of a Dire Tortoise, with a Foresight and a celerity.

Advantage: Wizard.

Analysis:
Surprise Round: Wizard gets an action. Even if the monk and wizard are aware of each other, due to the Dire Tortoise's ability. Wizard: Free Action shift to wizard form, standard action: Arcane Thesis Extended Time Stop for 2d4+2 rounds.

Rounds 1-4? Maw of chaos x2, Dimensional Lock, and Forcecage.
Now, the monk's taking 40d6 damage per round for around 20 rounds (140 average damage per round).

Say the monk's first round? Makes the saves and Dimension doors out. Wizard gets a celerity off, does another extended time stop, and does it again.

Now, the monk needs a couple thousand HP to even survive to see the wizard's 8th level spells. Because the above allows no save to reduce the damage.

Killer Angel

2010-02-05, 07:01 AM

7 pages ... not bad. (didnt really expect a single page)

In the title there are the words "monk" and "wizard". Easy win. :smalltongue:

Anyway, as I previously said, even if the monk kills the wizard, it's not the monk winning the match, but his epic WBL.
Monk's abilities are not suited for this task.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 07:06 AM

Technically, a monk with enough epic levels can't 'lose' to a wizard in an established fight, though winning is still impossible due to NotActuallyMe / ImperviousDemiplane shenanigans. But now I'm starting to talk about arbitrary amounts of epic feats (assuming 20th WBL), so the gap in prowess should be evident.

What will arbitrary amounts of epic levels get the monk? Impervious SR (assuming the wizard doesn't have a CL-boosting loop), nigh-immunity to damage (via HP), and almost all of the abilities granted by epic skill usage. For starters.

Kurald Galain

2010-02-05, 07:07 AM

Monk is a wazaaa fighter.
I'm unfamiliar with the word "wazaaa" but I'm going to assume it means "mediocre".

monk is supposed to be a sort of a martial-arts killer.

Monks are supposed to be Wizard Killers
I don't think we have any indication of what monks are supposed to be. Certainly the PHB doesn't say much on the topic, and I don't recall having read any interviews with the designers about it. What we have, by RAW, is what the monk is. And frankly, that's not much.

The notion about being "wizard killers" iirc only surfaced in one of the many monk debates after it was pointed out that no, they aren't good frontline hitters, nor tanks, nor scouts, and people were desperately looking for some other niche to put it in. And no, they're not wizard killers either.

Kobold-Bard

2010-02-05, 07:09 AM

I retract my statement.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 07:23 AM

For curiosity's sake, what planar trait is keeping the monk out again? I'm not well-read in that area.

Runestar

2010-02-05, 07:27 AM

What will arbitrary amounts of epic levels get the monk? Impervious SR (assuming the wizard doesn't have a CL-boosting loop), nigh-immunity to damage (via HP), and almost all of the abilities granted by epic skill usage. For starters.

I am fairly sure the wizard will find a spell that ignores sr and saves. I suppose that with enough gear, the monk will obtain virtual immunity to just about any effect, but there's disjunction for that.

I mean, trap the soul can bypass both sr and save, though getting a gem of that value can be tricky (but not impossible). Even reverse gravity can buy you some temporary respite (it too does not allow sr or saves).

And this is just using core spells as written.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 07:30 AM

I am fairly sure the wizard will find a spell that ignores sr and saves. I suppose that with enough gear, the monk will obtain virtual immunity to just about any effect, but there's disjunction for that.

I mean, trap the soul can bypass both sr and save, though getting a gem of that value can be tricky (but not impossible). Even reverse gravity can buy you some temporary respite (it too does not allow sr or saves).

And this is just using core spells as written.

Disjunction can be beaten (shock and awe) with a few tricks. Most of them aren't core, I'll admit. Additionally, DJ allows a will save for objects, so you're only losing approximately 1/20th of your gear. As for Trap the Soul, you'd have to go at that via the Trigger Object gambit. Seeing as an epic monk is likely to have epic Sense Motive, good luck. Regardless, I'm just saying that "Never-ever-ever-ever-ever will the monk not die" is probably not the most valid of statements.

Adamaro

2010-02-05, 07:42 AM

So this:
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/513/monkeyt.th.png (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/monkeyt.png/)
could only be achived by rule 0?

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 07:45 AM

So this:
could only be achived by rule 0?

If I'm right about a theory I have (and I need more information on just what makes the demiplane inpenetrable), then out of core, somehow it's possible. But you're really asking a lot to do it in core and traditionally as a monk.

Aldizog

2010-02-05, 09:42 AM

Assuming the above? The monk has a 0% chance, or close to it.

But assuming the above is pitting a Core monk against, in your example, a non-Core wizard.

With a Core wizard, the number of tricks is greatly reduced. There's no Celerity, no Dire Tortoise, no orb spells, no Maw of Chaos... MOST of what the wizard has either allows SR, gives a save, or both. I'd say the monk has a chance. Depends on level of optimization present in the game. The playtested blaster wizards I'd guess would 50% fall to a straight by-the-book monk, the ones in games I've played in maybe 15%, and in the high-op ideas thrown around here it could well be 0% (if the wizard is always an Astral Projection) or, barring that trick, 1%.

@Tokiko Mima: The monk has all good saves, mundane stealth, good touch AC, Improved Evasion, immunity to Cloudkill, ability to escape Forcecage (Abundant Step) and many other effects (Empty Body), AND has a special attack that targets a wizard's weak save. While it is possible to design an optimized wizard who automatically defeats or avoids every one of these defenses, that is not so universal, and the features are not so irrelevant, that a person should be called "unreasonable" for thinking monks have a chance against wizards. Many people look at the monk's features and think "The design intention was for this to be a mage-killer." Have splats increased power such that the monk needs a boost to compete in this role? Certainly. In Core, he has at least a chance to resist nearly every attack a wizard can throw at him. Non-Core, that is no longer true, and his defenses mean less. So now he probably should get Mettle, Improved Mettle, better Touch AC, Exceptional Deflection at pre-Epic levels, and (Ex) Freedom of Movement. Maybe a few more defenses as well.

Lysander

2010-02-05, 09:54 AM

There's another WBL problem. We're also assuming that the wizard has access to every single spell there is. It's more realistic to believe that the wizard can get any lower level spell they want, but the higher level stuff is limited to whatever they research themselves. How common would 9th level scrolls really be in magic marts? Probably non-existent. And would any other paranoid genesis plane bunker dwelling dire tortoise wizards really want to share their secrets? I think it's safe to assume the average lvl 20 wizard has just four 9th level spells.

But let's answer the OPs question and reduce this to its simplest form, taking away all variables like magic items and buffs and whatnot. It's unrealistic but it's the only answer we can really get.

SCENARIO: The Spontaneous Brawl

One level 20 human wizard has a wish backfire and it sends him to an isolated field on the material plane with nothing but his non-magical clothing, basic component pouch, and his non-magical spellbook. His buffs are dispelled and spells slots are all wasted by the wish so he camps for the night and prepares his spells the next morning. One of the spells he prepares is plane shift so he can return home.

The next morning a moment after preparing his spells but before he can cast anything a human epic monk walks down the road. The monk despite his epic level leads a simple life and doesn't carry anything on him besides his clothing. The monk and the wizard see each other and suddenly recognize they were childhood rivals many decades ago. They start a polite conversation (after all, that rivalry happened when they were young) but the conversation becomes heated as old injuries are recalled. Someone says fightin' words.

ROLL INITIATIVE.

Question: In this scenario what level would the monk have to be to kill the wizard?

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 10:00 AM

SCENARIO: The Spontaneous Brawl

Whatever level the monk gets to cast Disjunction, thus foiling immunity to death by damage via spells.

Ergo more or less never. The second the wizard can set up a trick that prevents them from dying, traditional monk can't win. Survive? Easily, and with enough epic levels assuredly. Win? Never. You're stripping away the only things that allow the monk to deal with a wizard's antics.

Edit: In your situation? Whoever wins initiative doesn't lose. That's the answer. Because it's an oversimplification. An epic monk doesn't survive epic without his gear, and a 20th level wizard is a fool to not buff when efficiently able to.

Lysander

2010-02-05, 12:06 PM

At a high enough epic level a monk could probably kill the wizard though, regardless of whatever defenses the wizard has prepared. It'd be a really high epic level though.

First off, the monk would be immune to anything with an attack roll thanks to Epic Dodge. They would also be completely immune to anything the wizard can cast subject to spell resistance thanks to Diamond Soul. They could also bypass Walls of Force and Forcecages with epic Escape Artist checks. They can see through illusions and invisibility with epic Spot checks.

Now let's assume the wizard is playing coy, hiding inside their trapped fortress on their private genesis demiplane. The monk has the challenge of getting to them from the material plane. Well good news! The monk can reach them there without any magic items. How? Genesis creates this:

Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location

And what's a coterminous plane?

Coterminous Planes

Planes that touch at specific points are coterminous. Where they touch, a connection exists, and travelers can leave one reality behind and enter the other.

So using Empty Body a monk can enter the ethereal plane and then just float right over the boundary into the wizard's private universe. Now a monk can only remain ethereal for a limited amount per day. However when they're in the wizards plane they're no longer ethereal. They might be able to stay there without continuing to use Empty Body. Or, even if they would get sent back to the material plane, we have an infinite number of levels to work with so the monk can use Empty Body for as many rounds as necessary!

Okay, so we're in the wizard's private castle. Just use your maxed out hide and move silently to sneak up on them. Punch your way through any solid barrier or enemy that gets in your way. But wait, the wizard has a contingent teleport set up to carry them to safety if they're ever attacked. Except teleport can't operate across planes, so it just deposits the wizard somewhere else within their demiplane.

Now let's take the monk's move speed into account. They can move at ((30ft base human speed + Xft monk unarmored speed bonus + 30ft from Epic Speed)x2 Haste effect from Epic Blinding Speed) each round. Let's be conservative and say that X is just +70ft. That's a total move speed of 260ft! As soon as the wizard arrives you make your epic listen check to pinpoint their position and run over. If there are obstacles in the way you instead use Abundant Step as your surprise round action. Then you appear next to the wizard, roll initiative which you definitely win thanks to Superior Initiative and beat the crap out of them.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 12:17 PM

Lysander

2010-02-05, 12:35 PM

Except you haven't addressed any of the wizard's immortality/thisisn'tme tricks.

Also, your sneaky sneaky plot is foiled by what appears to be a first level spell. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alarm.htm)

Just use epic search to detect and avoid magical areas. Or use your amazing move speed to move through alarmed areas too quickly for the wizard to react.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 12:38 PM

Just use epic search to detect and avoid magical areas. Or use your amazing move speed to move through alarmed areas too quickly for the wizard to react.

And if the entire demiplane has been subjected to the Alarm spell? You're talking about a wizard with Permanancy and the Flowing Time trait. He's literally got all the time in the world to burglar-proof his demiplane.

Lysander

2010-02-05, 12:50 PM

And if the entire demiplane has been subjected to the Alarm spell? You're talking about a wizard with Permanancy and the Flowing Time trait. He's literally got all the time in the world to burglar-proof his demiplane.

I'd disagree that Genesis lets you determine planar traits (time, gravity, etc.) as opposed to just the type of environment. But even assuming the monk triggers the alarm as soon as they enter the plane, they can use Abundant Step or just run really fast to reach the wizard.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 12:51 PM

But assuming the above is pitting a Core monk against, in your example, a non-Core wizard.

With a Core wizard, the number of tricks is greatly reduced. There's no Celerity, no Dire Tortoise, no orb spells, no Maw of Chaos... MOST of what the wizard has either allows SR, gives a save, or both. I'd say the monk has a chance. Depends on level of optimization present in the game. The playtested blaster wizards I'd guess would 50% fall to a straight by-the-book monk, the ones in games I've played in maybe 15%, and in the high-op ideas thrown around here it could well be 0% (if the wizard is always an Astral Projection) or, barring that trick, 1%.
I never said a core only monk. That said, non-core doesn't add much to monk.

In non core? Wizard STILL has a 0% loss chance, given the earlier statements of no WBL.

Why?

Fly. No matter how powerful that monk is, no matter how many levels it has, unless it's going to get enough to pump a Jump check to arbitrarily high, it's not going to get in melee range.

Because, barring anything I haven't thought of? A core monk without WBL doesn't fly. Wizards do. Game over.

Lysander

2010-02-05, 12:54 PM

Fly. No matter how powerful that monk is, no matter how many levels it has, unless it's going to get enough to pump a Jump check to arbitrarily high, it's not going to get in melee range.

Because, barring anything I haven't thought of? A core monk without WBL doesn't fly. Wizards do. Game over.

Abundant Step up to the wizard + mid-air grapple. Or Empty Body to the ethereal plane and fly upwards, then return to the material plane for a mid-air grapple.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 12:57 PM

Abundant Step up to the wizard + mid-air grapple. Or Empty Body to the ethereal plane and fly upwards, then return to the material plane for a mid-air grapple.

You keep assuming that the monk instantaneously locates the wizard and is able to reach them in one round.

tyckspoon

2010-02-05, 12:58 PM

Abundant Step up to the wizard + mid-air grapple. Or Empty Body to the ethereal plane and fly upwards, then return to the material plane for a mid-air grapple.

Dimension Door ends your actions. Enjoy your Wizard-less fall. Dismissing Empty Body is a standard action and you used the move to get up there. Again, enjoy your Wizard-less fall.

PhoenixRivers

2010-02-05, 01:01 PM

Abundant Step up to the wizard + mid-air grapple. Or Empty Body to the ethereal plane and fly upwards, then return to the material plane for a mid-air grapple.

Abundant step up, and...immediately take falling damage.

It's a nice concept, but RAW? If you are on the material plane, in the air, and are not flying?? You fall.

Not to mention that you cannot act after an Abundant Step. It's based on Dimension Door.

So let's adjust your statements.

Monk: (Move): Abundant step up to the wizard.
DM: Ok, you fall. Your turn's over.

Monk: Go to the ethereal plane.
DM: Ok.
Monk: Go to where the wizard is.
DM: Ok, let's assume for the sake of argument that the wizard is one of the two slightly retarded level 20 wizards on the planet that doesn't have See Invisibility permanencied.
Monk: Shift to the material plane and grapple him!
DM: Ok, you shift to the material plane. There's no wall around, so here's 20d6 falling damage. Now that we've done that, what do you want to grapple again?

Doc Roc

2010-02-05, 01:01 PM

and leaving aside all the broken loops with candles, etc.

Well, it can be done... but how many levels you'd need, it's highly debatable.
The point is: it's not the monk winning the match, but his epic WBL.
We saw (in previous threads and arena matches) that even a fighter 20 can sometime beat a wizard 13, but the thing happened mostly thanks to the differences in money-equipment.
So, the same could be applied to a Wiz 20 Vs a Monk xx, but the things get A LOT more complicated.

So, I was one of the people who was in that. I saw all of two fighter builds that had a reasonable chance against my L13 wizard. Who I didn't consider very optimized. However.... Killer is right. Epic WBL allows you to just do whatever you want. I'd say probably level 28 should work, because then you can just buy the wizard off.

Mushroom Ninja

2010-02-05, 01:02 PM

Also, how does an itemless monk deal with invisibility? I know you can pinpoint with high spot/listen checks, but when the wizard's 500ft overhead? It would have to be a pretty darn high-level monk.

Doc Roc

2010-02-05, 01:03 PM

Also, how does an itemless monk deal with invisibility? I know you can pinpoint with high spot/listen checks, but when the wizard's 500ft overhead? It would have to be a pretty darn high-level monk.

He doesn't. He dies, badly, afraid and alone. And before you say true seeing, remember, that only has a 120 foot range, a fact very often forgotten. Oh and you are not gonna get true seeing without items. Which means you are practically speaking completely doomed unless you can jack your will save into the 25+ region also without items.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 01:05 PM

Pharaoh's Fist

2010-02-05, 01:06 PM

So, I was one of the people who was in that. I saw all of two fighter builds that had a reasonable chance against my L13 wizard. Who I didn't consider very optimized. However.... Killer is right. Epic WBL allows you to just do whatever you want. I'd say probably level 28 should work, because then you can just buy the wizard off.

OP specified level 20 WBL for the monk and wizard though.

Doc Roc

2010-02-05, 01:06 PM

That's a mere DC130 spot check, which is doable with epic wealth.

Somehow, we got into the Item-less town. No way in heaven or hell you can make that check without phat loot.

OP specified level 20 WBL for the monk and wizard though.

Then the wizard wins. I'll show you if you like.
You can have a whole party of monks. Say, four of them.

Not you, though, PF. I don't want to die by choking on a nerf dart over tasty vietnamese food.

Mushroom Ninja

2010-02-05, 01:06 PM

That's a mere DC130 spot check, which is doable with epic wealth.

I was thinking of the Spontaneous Brawl scenario which was suggested a page ago.

Signmaker

2010-02-05, 01:08 PM

Somehow, we got into the Item-less town. No way in heaven or hell you can make that check without phat loot.

Nope. Pretty much nope. :smallfrown:

As I've stated before, the monk in the given framework (20th WBL, as many epic levels as required, core) can't assuredly lose against a wizard. Winning is still impossible, therefore we need to move on to the next scenario.

Aldizog

2010-02-05, 01:13 PM

7 pages ... not bad. (didnt really expect a single page)

What I had in mind was no UMDs, no magic items, no PrCs, also none "i start 60 feet way and try to win init.". Just Core monk taking on a lvl 20 buffed wizard coming into a fight with entire wizard fury at his back.

If you want a straight-up fight, you might be better off picking a sorcerer as the opponent. They can't be assumed to have every spell in the book (or even fairly niche spells like Dimensional Lock -- Xykon doesn't seem to have it), and they aren't so super-intelligent that it wrecks suspension of disbelief for them to blast away rather than turning tail and running the second things go 1% against them.

I never said a core only monk. That said, non-core doesn't add much to monk.
The "assuming the above" you referenced *did* say Core monk.

In non core? Wizard STILL has a 0% loss chance, given the earlier statements of no WBL.

Why?

Fly.
A 0% chance for a hypothetical optmized wizard, possibly. I'm guessing odds based on how the wizards are actually played (as PCs or as NPCs). In the actual games I've been in, wizard PCs or NPCs are sometimes encountered in dungeons. Which have ceilings. And in the actual games I've played, wizard PCs and NPCs don't have Contingencies set up so they run away the minute things go the slightest bit against them, because the players want to actually play the game.

Blaster wizard in a dungeon crawl (my guess of the playtesting)? 50% chance to lose to a monk. The kind of wizard I'm used to? Maybe 10-15%; does more than just blast, has some preparation but not godlike, doesn't always get to choose the battleground, and has spells picked for a mix of usefulness and fun. Respects his gaming group's preferences by not busting out "No save, no hit roll, no SR, you die" attacks. A clever and lucky monk with good tactics could defeat him.