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The Corinthian
2010-02-04, 12:03 PM
This being the board that coined the idea of the Batman wizard, I figured it would be a good place for this observation.

I've DMed a 4-5 man D&D group from level 4 to 22 over the past 3 years, and in that time, I've come to the conclusion that the apellation is appropriate. That is, the Wizard is very resourceful. He has excellent stealth. He can find out all kinds of information from the sketchiest clues, and has utility abilities the other PCs can't duplicate at all. The party really feels the lack when he's not there. And with the right tool at the right time, he can make an encounter significantly easier. (He rarely decides a challenging encounter outright, probably because those usually feature multiple non-identical enemies.) However, he's not Batman in Detective Comics, he's Batman in the Justice League. Meanwhile the warrior-types are Superman: Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive. The analogy holds well: It's "Superman's" job to take the lumps as the big monsters show what they can do, and "Batman's" job to lurk and hide at the edges of the fight until he finds its weak spot. If he's not there, it turns into a slugging match that "Superman" may or may not win, depends on whether the group is fighting "Mongul" or "Doomsday". Either way "Supes" isn't in good shape to go on much further that day. (Party has no primary divine casters) Whereas if he leaves himself open and lets the big monster du jour get a shot at him, it goes "Bwahaha, you don't even have any superpowers!" and he gets mangled. (Not that that happens often, at this level, but was easily the most-resurrected PC while the group was climbing the XP ladder and getting the hang of things. Fortunately they decided he was invaluable, and resurrect him every time). If "Batman" somehow gets in a fight with Superman, he can delay and frustrate him for a while, but in the end, he'd better hope that his K-Ring sucker punch connects, or he'll get turned into a fine red mist.

In a vain hope that this observation may not be dismissed outright as anecdotal, but might actually register with someone, I've procured the character sheets of the party Shadow Adept (Wizard) and Dragon Disciple. (One of two warrior-types in the group, the most "strikery" thereof.) These are characters who were played from 6th and 4th level respectively.

Brett Lughart: NE Male Dark Creature human Illusionist 5/Shadow Adept 10/Child of Night 5

STR: 9/-1 HP: 142
DEX: 12/+1 (14/+2) AC: 15 (+3 armor,+2 dex)
CON: 14/+2 (20/+5) Flat-Footed: 13Touch: 12
INT: 24/+7 (30/+10) INIT: +6
WIS: 12/+1 Speed: 40ft (fly 40ft, average)
CHA: 10/+0

FORT: +16 (+6 base, +5 ability, +5 magic)
REF: +13 (+6 base, +2 ability, +5 magic)
WILL: +18 (+12 base, +1 ability, +5 magic,)
[+3 to all vs. enchantment, illusion and necromancy spells or effects]

Base Attack Bonus: +10/+5
Grapple: +9(+10 base, -1 strength)

ATTACK
Melee touch +9 melee by spell
Dagger +9/4 melee 1d4-1
Ranged touch +11 ranged by spell

Skills:
Concentration +25 (20 ranks, +5 ability)
Craft (Alchemy) +21 (11 ranks, +10 ability)
Knowledge:
Arcana: +33 (+23 ranks, +10 ability)
The Planes: +30 (+20 ranks, +10 ability)
Dungeoneering: +28 (+18 ranks, +10 ability)
Nature: +24 (+14 ranks, +10 ability)
Religion: +22 (+12 ranks, +10 ability)
Spellcraft: +35 (+23 ranks, +10 ability, +2 synergy)
Ride +3 (+1 ranks, +2 ability)
Hide: +31(+16 ranks, +2 ability, +8 Dark Creature, +5 child of night )
Move silently: +13 (+2 ranks, +2 ability, +6 Dark Creature)

FEATS: SPECIAL ABILITIES5:
Scribe Scroll Familiar as lvl 5 wizard (currently none)
Combat Casting Superior Low-light vision
Shadow Weave Magic Darkvision 60 ft.
Improved Initiative Cold Resistance 10
Empower Spell Hide in Plain Sight
Spell Focus: Illusion Shadow Protection +3
Spell Focus: Necromancy Ward of Shadows
Spell Penetration Shadow Double
Quicken Spell Shadow Walk 1/day
Craft Wondrous Item Dancing Shadows 1/day
Pernicious Magic Blur 1/day
Insidious Magic Wings
Tenacious Magic Mysteries (all 1/day)[from Black Mask]
LANGUAGES: Voice of Shadows
Common, Chondathan, Congress of Shadows
Illuskan, Elven, Dwarven Flicker [standard action to activate, then
immediate action to flicker]


EQUIPMENT: OTHER ITEMS:
Spellbooks Scrolls:
Spell component pouch False Vision
Potion belt Ring of telekinesis Invisibility x2
Amulet of health +6 Nystul's Magic Aura
Bracers of Armor +3 Major Image
Gloves of dexterity +2 Dispel Magic (CL 10th)
Headband of Intellect +6 Wands:
Bag of Holding, type 1 Darkvision (12 charges)
Ring of counterspelling Bull's Strength (26 charges)
(stores Greater Dispel Magic) Potion of Lesser Restoration
Ring of spell turning
Ring of Lore [Not worn day-to-day]
Lesser metamagic rod of Extend
Book of Blood
Black Mask [sentient, unslotted item with mysterious properties. Is at least a minor artifact. Known properties: Telepathy with wearer, Shades and Shadow Walk 3/day total, +6 DC on Will saves to disbelieve wearer's [Shadow] spells]

Spells/day: 4+1/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/5+1/4+1/4+1
DC 20+spell level, 22+spell level with Illusion and Necromancy.
CL 19, 18 with transmutation and evocation.
Spellbooks:

Lvl 1: Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Comprehend Languages, Disguise Self,
Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Identify, Mage Armor, Magic Missile,
Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Silent Image, True Strike

Lvl 2: Alter Self, Blur, Darkness, False Life, Invisibility, Knock,
Lahm's Finger Darts, Minor Image, Protection From Arrows, Resist Energy,
Scorching Ray, Spirit Wrack

Lvl 3: Arcane Eyes, Dispel Magic, Displacement, Fireball, Fly,
Gaseous Form, Haste, Heroism, Lightning Bolt, Major Image,
Protection From Energy, Slow, Tounges, Magic Circle Against Evil

Lvl 4: Detect Scrying, Dimensional Anchor, Enervation, Fear,
Greater Invisibility, Illusory Wall, Phantasmal Killer, Polymorph,
Scrying, Shadow Conjuration, Spell Enhancer, Stoneskin

Lvl 5: Flesshiver [PGtF version], Imprison Posessor, Ironguard, Overland Flight,
Sending, Shadow Evocation, Telekinesis, Wall Of Force

Lvl 6: Acid Storm, Analyze Dweomer, Antimagic Field, Chain Lightning,
Disintegrate, Flesh to Stone, Globe Of Invulnerability,
Greater Dispel Magic, Impotent Posessor, Mislead, Shadow Walk, True Seeing

Lvl 7: Delayed Blast Fireball, Ethereal Jaunt, Finger of Death,
Greater Shadow Conjuration, Greater Scrying, Limited Wish, Prisatic Spray,
Simulacrum, Spell Turning

Lvl 8: Clone, Discern Location, Ghost Form, Greater Prying Eyes,
Greater Shadow Evocation, Horrid Wilting, Mind Blank, Polyorph Any Object,
Protection From Spells

Lvl 9: Bigbys Crushing Hand, Foresight, Meteor Swarm,
Mordenkainens Disjunction, Time Stop, Weird, Wish

Carrados Malorn: CG Male Wood Elf Ranger 5/Bard 1/Black Dragon Disciple 10/Fighter 2/Divine Champion 4

STR: 30/+10 (36/+13) HP: 329
DEX: 18/+4 (22/+6) AC: 32 (+8 armor,+5 dex,+6 nat,+3 defl)
CON: 22/+6 (28/+9) Flat-Footed: 27 Touch: 18
INT: 14/+2 (18/+4) INIT: +10
WIS: 13/+1 Speed: 40ft (fly 40ft, average)
CHA: 12/+1

FORT: +26 (+12 base, +9 ability, +5 magic)
REF: +21 (+10 base, +6 ability, +5 magic)
WILL: +20 (+10 base, +1 ability, +5 magic, +4 insight) [+2 vs. enchantment spells or effects]

Base Attack Bonus: +19/+14/+9/+4
Grapple: +36 (+19 base, +13 strength, +4 feat)
Sunder: +44 (+19 base, +13 strength, +5 ench, +3 feat, +4 feat)

ATTACK
Ghostblade (longsword): +40/+35/+30/+25 (+19 base, +13 strength, +5 weapon, +3 feat), 1d8+24 (+19 strength, +5 ench.), 17-20x2.
Notes: +5 enhanced, Holy (+2d6 vs evil), Orcbane (+2 enhancement bonus and +2d6 vs orc), Spellblade (fleshshiver, power word: stun). Constantly emanates Magic Circle Against Evil. (CL 5th)

Oathbow (composite longbow): +27/+22/+17/+12 (+19 base, +6 dexterity, +2 enhancement), 1d8+4 (+2 strength, +2 ench.), x3.
Notes: +2 enhanced, Oath (+5 ench., +2d6, crit. x4).

2 claws: +32 (+19 base, +13 strength), 1d4+13 (+13 strength), x2.
Bite: +27 (+19 base, +13 strength, -5 secondary attack), 1d6+6 (+6 strength), x2.

Skills:
Spot: +25 (+22 ranks, +1 ability, +2 racial)
Listen: +26 (+23, +1 ability, +2 racial)
Survival: +15 (+14, +1 ability)
Knowledge:
Arcana: +13 (+9 ranks, +4 ability)
History: +14 (+10 ranks, +4 ability) [from the Telkiira]
Geography: +12 (+8 ranks, +4 ability)
Religion: +7 (+3 ranks, +4 ability)Jump: +18 (+1 ranks, +13 strength, +4 speed)
Spellcraft: +16 (+10 ranks, +4, +2 synergy) [from the Telkiira]
Tumble: +7 (+1 ranks, +6 ability)
Diplomacy: +13 (+10 ranks, +1 ability, +2 synergy) [from the Telkiira]
Hide: +13 (+7 ranks, +6 ability)
Move silently: +13 (+7 ranks, +6 ability)
Sense motive: +11 (+10 ranks, +1 ability) [from the Telkiira]
Perform (singing): +4 (+3 ranks, +1 ability)

FEATS: SPECIAL ABILITIES5:
Track Favored enemy
Extra smiting (+4 evil outsiders, +2 goblinoids)
Endurance Elf traits
Rapid shot Disruptive strike (Ranger ACF, PHB II)
Weapon focus (longsword) Bardic knowledge (+7)
Improved critical (longsword) Lay on hands (4 points)
Power attack Aura of good
Combat brute Aura of resolve
Favored power attack Natural attacks
Fleet of foot Acid immunity
Improved initiative Immunity to paralysis
Improved grapple Wings
Blind fight Blindsense (60ft)
Improved sunder Breath weapon (6d8, DC 29)
Epic weapon focus (longsword) Smite infidel 3/day (+22 dmg)
Bardic music:
Inspire courage
Countersong
Fascinate
LANGUAGES:
Common, Chondathan,
Draconic, Elven, Goblin,
Dwarven, Infernal, Abyssal,
Celestial

EQUIPMENT: OTHER ITEMS:
Ghostblade (longsword) Elemental gem (air) x2
Oathbow (composite longbow) Potion belt
Breastplate (+3, mithril, death ward) Ring of telekinesis
Amulet of health +6 +1, bane (evil outsider) arrows x10
Belt of giant strength +6 Hood of disguise [Hat of disguise]
Gloves of dexterity +4 Potion of lesser restoration x2
Telkiira Wand of dimension door (6 charges)
Boots of speed Neron’s pin [as Harper pin]
Cloak of resistance +5 Quaal’s boat token
Bracers of natural armor +2 Silversheen x2
Ring of protection +3 Potion of invisibility
Ring of minor fire resistance
Silver symbol of Corellon
Bag of holding (type 1)


Three house rules are relevant:
1. We use fractional BaB and saves.
2. We unanimously decided to ban (lesser/greater)celerity.
3.Mordekainen's Disjunction has a 1 minute casting time.

Various campaign/story related bric-a-brac has been deleted from both their character sheets, mostly "fluff" possessions, since those are of no relevance to the point I'm making and would just confuse people. Hopefully you'll agree that these stats bear out my point, and that they're roughly equal in terms of level of optimization?

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-04, 02:04 PM
Pardon me, but what are the two shadowy prestige classes the wizard takes?

The Corinthian
2010-02-04, 02:22 PM
Shadow Adept is from the Player's Guide to Faerun. It's about the Shadow Weave from that setting. The class features aren't very powerful, but they're decent and it gets full casting.

Child of Night is from Tome of Magic. It loses 1 caster level, and mechanically, the benefits are all over the place. Flavor-wise, it's about gradually becoming a creature of the Plane of Shadow. It has some perks the player liked, such as:
-d6 hd
-hide and move silently as class skills
-poison immunity
-gradually eliminates need to eat, sleep and breathe

Oh, and I forgot to include this above: the wizard's prohibited schools are Enchantment and Conjuration.

Eldonauran
2010-02-04, 03:48 PM
Banned Conjuration? Not sure I would have done that...

Milskidasith
2010-02-04, 03:50 PM
Yeah, if he's banned conjuration, he's less batman, and more Joker: totally insane.

The Corinthian
2010-02-04, 04:22 PM
It should be pointed out that he's never without Shades, which is a big help in that regard. He's gone on record as missing Enchantment more.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-04, 04:25 PM
It should be pointed out that he's never without Shades, which is a big help in that regard. He's gone on record as missing Enchantment more.Shades is no substitute, since it's a 9th level spell and a lot of the good Conj is 4th level. And it doesn't duplicate more than half the school. Unless you're a SCM, itt's not worth it.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 04:30 PM
He can mimic a lot of conjuration effects with shadow conjuration. Would have banned evocation instead, though. Still can't get teleport with shadow conjuration.

Anyway, who cares. The wizard banned the most powerful school, and he's still kicking ass. Which is the point of the thread; not to quibble with the OP what would have been a more optimal character decision for one of his players.