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DiscipleofBob
2010-02-04, 12:35 PM
I have a general question:

What are the average damage outputs for each Striker, and how is each ADO broken down? That is, for each damage output, how much of it comes from the power itself, how much comes from a class feature, how much comes from ability scores, and how much comes from feats?

As for what level, well, I kind of need across the board numbers, but heroic tier, so level 1 and level 10, are most pressing.

The purpose behind this question?

Well, I bet that there are plenty of people on this forum who would love some good numbers to compare classes. Personally, I just need to know since I'm attempting to homebrew some classes for 4e, and damage output for a striker class especially would make or break the class.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 01:02 PM
Are you breaking it out by class (e.g. Ranger, Warlock, Sorcerer) or by build? (Feylock, Darklock, Dracosorc, Arrowger)

Sipex
2010-02-04, 01:23 PM
On a 4e site I frequent they're actually doing this right now:

http://dnd4.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1128

DiscipleofBob
2010-02-04, 02:02 PM
Are you breaking it out by class (e.g. Ranger, Warlock, Sorcerer) or by build? (Feylock, Darklock, Dracosorc, Arrowger)

Well, I would do it just by class, but I understand that some builds have vastly different damage outputs, so when the damage output is that different I need to take that into account.

On the other hand, if the build in question is extremely specific and requires a specific combination of feats, multiclassing, and just looks in general like something the CharOp board puked up, I really don't need those numbers, just general damage output from classes.

My biggest challenge is right now I'm homebrewing a FF-style Dragoon class to be a Striker, and I need to figure out average-damage-per-turn to balance it with my homebrewed class, who will probably only be dealing damage every other turn.

Sipex
2010-02-04, 02:10 PM
There are several things you have to factor into overall damage output.

1) The damage itself, of course.
2) Crit chance. Usually very low but higher crit chance means more damage, especially with magic weapons.
3) Hit chance. Most strikers have ways to improve this, keep this in mind.

BobTheDog
2010-02-04, 02:11 PM
Kinda off topic, but pure damage is not all that you need for a striker. Take the Avenger as an example. It is widely tossed around as the worst striker because it doesn't have the same ADO as a ranger or other classes. Still, in play (I've DMed for avengers for a while now), they don't seem to lag behind that much, with increased hit/crit chance etc. Even if his damage is a little lower, it didn't affect the players' satisfaction with the class. In one group, the Avenger fared well as the only striker in the group (without even a "quasi-striker" to help him), and continued to be a valuable asset after he got a Barbarian and Sorcerer to "compete" with.

DiscipleofBob
2010-02-04, 02:24 PM
There are several things you have to factor into overall damage output.

1) The damage itself, of course.
2) Crit chance. Usually very low but higher crit chance means more damage, especially with magic weapons.
3) Hit chance. Most strikers have ways to improve this, keep this in mind.

1. What I'm looking for.
2. Yes, but with a few exceptions (usually not until paragon tier), crit chance is determined more by equipment than by actual class features, powers, or feats.
3. I realize that being a Striker also usually entails hit chance, mobility, and status effects, and am keeping this all in mind.


Kinda off topic, but pure damage is not all that you need for a striker. Take the Avenger as an example. It is widely tossed around as the worst striker because it doesn't have the same ADO as a ranger or other classes. Still, in play (I've DMed for avengers for a while now), they don't seem to lag behind that much, with increased hit/crit chance etc. Even if his damage is a little lower, it didn't affect the players' satisfaction with the class. In one group, the Avenger fared well as the only striker in the group (without even a "quasi-striker" to help him), and continued to be a valuable asset after he got a Barbarian and Sorcerer to "compete" with.

I know this. This isn't to find out which Striker is better than another or any nonsense like that. I've never been a fan of class tiers anyway. This is only to have some numbers to compare and to figure out a good damage output for homebrewed classes.

Artanis
2010-02-04, 04:54 PM
Kinda off topic, but pure damage is not all that you need for a striker. Take the Avenger as an example. It is widely tossed around as the worst striker because it doesn't have the same ADO as a ranger or other classes. Still, in play (I've DMed for avengers for a while now), they don't seem to lag behind that much, with increased hit/crit chance etc. Even if his damage is a little lower, it didn't affect the players' satisfaction with the class. In one group, the Avenger fared well as the only striker in the group (without even a "quasi-striker" to help him), and continued to be a valuable asset after he got a Barbarian and Sorcerer to "compete" with.

The basic logic behind calling the Avenger the "worst Striker" is something along these lines:
1) A Striker's job is to hurt things.
2) The Avenger is the worst Striker when it comes to hurting things.
3) Thus, the Avenger is the worst Striker at doing its job.
4) Thus, the Avenger is the worst Striker.

Douglas
2010-02-04, 04:58 PM
2) The Avenger is the worst Striker when it comes to hurting things.
Is this point actually accurate, though? I'm not familiar with the numbers myself, but if you account for probabilities of hits and crits, is the average damage output still subpar? As I recall, Avengers get to roll twice and take better on their attack rolls, giving them a much higher chance to hit and almost double the chance to crit compared to other strikers, and that should make quite a difference to the averages.

Artanis
2010-02-04, 05:14 PM
Is this point actually accurate, though? I'm not familiar with the numbers myself, but if you account for probabilities of hits and crits, is the average damage output still subpar? As I recall, Avengers get to roll twice and take better on their attack rolls, giving them a much higher chance to hit and almost double the chance to crit compared to other strikers, and that should make quite a difference to the averages.

AFAIK it's accurate. Accurate or not though, that's the logic train being used.

And yes, it already includes their Censure.

Edea
2010-02-04, 05:16 PM
If you're going to homebrew a class, the striker role is the most difficult one to do it for, as either 1) it's going to out-damage a ranger, making it overpowered, 2) it's going to deal less damage than a ranger and nothing else, making it worthless, or 3) it's going to deal less damage than a ranger and then something else (which the vast majority of the time is not worth the loss of extra damage), and we already have SEVEN of those.

Ironically, the baseline for 'solid' damage numbers isn't even a Striker class; use the Fighter (which generally falls around the Barbarian|Rogue area damage-wise). Quick table:
---------------------------------------
1) Ranger. Highest damage dealer, gains very nasty status conditions later in the game (the stun condition crops up repeatedly). Excellent class features, excellent feat support, and excellent Paragon Paths (just don't use Beastmaster). Damage source: multiattack powers, including the hilariously overpowered Twin Strike at-will.
---------------------------------------
2) Barbarian. Trades some of the ranger's damage capacity for a massive durability boost (and to be honest, this is one of the very few cases where the trade is fair, as the damage loss isn't sharp). Fantastic class features, decent feat support, and craptastic Paragon Paths (most barbs multi into Fighter for this reason). Damage source: big [W] powers and rage dailies.
---------------------------------------
3) Rogue. Trades some of the ranger's damage capacity for superior utility, battlefield versatility, and nastier/earlier riders (getting hit with a rogue daily is generally quite crippling). The trade's a bit steep, but a rogue can do all of its stuff with nothing more than a dagger (translation: easy upkeep). Great class features (note: don't take Ruthless Ruffian), good feat support, and Paragon Paths...depends. If you stick with Daggers, it's peachy, but otherwise expect a Rogue to multi (again, probably into Fighter).
---------------------------------------
4) Sorcerer. Trades the ranger's focus damage for superior area damage capability and the use of elemental keywords/superior riders (though not superior enough IMO). If the party doesn't have a controller, this is an awesome choice, but if you've already got one of those and a control-oriented leader (such as a cleric, bard, or shaman), not so much. Decent class features, great feat support, CRAP Paragon Paths (this time the multi choice is Rogue, since Sorcerers use daggers as implements. Str/Cha sorcs tend to focus on either the draconic arrogance line and/or cold/radiant damage).
---------------------------------------
5) Assassin. We're starting to get into the striker classes 'with issues'. The high point for the Assassin is the use of Ki Foci, making it easy to upkeep (he doesn't have to worry about weapon enhancement bonuses or enchantments). Actually, the class features are superb (Assassin's Shroud needs to be a bit faster/progress more evenly through tiers, but that's about it). The problems are fourfold: its powers are PURE manure, the Paragon Path selections are flimsy, the only feat support it has are two articles in Dragon, and it is without a doubt the most fragile thing in the game: controller HP/HS on a melee-only class = uh-oh. The biggest issue out of those is its power selection, which means Assassins are likely to multiclass (Rogue's a popular one; even though it can hurt the Assassin's [W] powers, Daggermaster + the Assassin's 'multi-roll' powers = lol, I crit with my shroud damage again). Damage output's overall pretty bad at this point.
---------------------------------------
6) Warlock. Don't get me wrong, I love warlocks. A lot. But to get them to actually strike, you really need to watch what you're doing build wise and twink the living daylights out of it. They have good class features, good feat support, and actually they also have good Paragon Paths...it's just that almost none of these things are oriented towards doing damage. Warlocks are extremely defensive and rider-oriented; kinda wish they'd been called 'controllers' instead of 'strikers.' Regardless, sorcerers out-damage them by miles and can affect multiple enemies.
---------------------------------------
7) Monk. This is Assassin -1. Worse features, all powers are implement (hint: this is worrisome for a non-ranged/area striker), same range, weaker damage output, weaker riders, less feat support, and poorer Paragon Path selection. Only thing it's got going is slightly higher HP and somewhat better defenses (negated by the assassin's vastly superior class features). It has the same problems Assassin has, just bigger.
---------------------------------------
8) Avenger. What a crapsack. The errata made it worse. The only Paragon Path even worth mentioning is Favored Soul...and that's because it GIVES YOU WINGS. Note the absence of 'damage' in that statement. Avenger is the Red Bull of strikers, better off taken as its overpowered multiclass version for Oath Lite and Favored Soul, then throwing away the can (the rest of the class). This bastard is a walking class feature with a bunch of utter nonsense attached to it. Even Painful Oath can't save this bloody thing from becoming the ultimate abomination: the Notvenger, an 'Avenger' who's traded as many powers and feats and PPs and everything other than the Oath as he can with other striker classes (mainly Ranger, sometimes Barbarian and even Rogue). This is what you DON'T want when homebrewing.
---------------------------------------

Note that the classes after Sorcerer have had 'Fix me!' threads on CharOp. If a class gets one of those, might be indicative a problem. As for actual numbers, pretty sure the CharOp board's run those for Fighters before (just search the board for that stuff, they run numbers all the time).

Artanis
2010-02-04, 05:28 PM
A couple things to add to what Edea just said:


The Warlock is often described as half-Striker, half-Controller. That goes double for Feylocks. So...yeah.

The Monk will almost certainly move up a bit when the full class is released.

Gralamin
2010-02-04, 05:43 PM
Edea covered it pretty well. I'm not so sure on Assassin to Monk placeage, due to not having the full class / Not taking a good look at it yet.

Edea
2010-02-04, 06:03 PM
I really hope Monks 'level up' a bit from what we've got so far as the official PH3 pre-release, apparently we currently only have the 'more controllerish' branch atm, so maybe it'll change.

randomhero00
2010-02-04, 06:15 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19647262/Battlefield_Archer

Look at the snapshots. He calculates damage per round for an optimized ranger. Ranger tends to be the highest. So you have your benchmark. (no idea how accurate this is, should be though, at a glance it looks right.)

Mando Knight
2010-02-04, 06:26 PM
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19647262/Battlefield_Archer

Look at the snapshots. He calculates damage per round for an optimized ranger. Ranger tends to be the highest. So you have your benchmark. (no idea how accurate this is, should be though, at a glance it looks right.)

That's not a benchmark. A benchmark isn't the outlier, it's roughly around the mean.

Gralamin
2010-02-04, 06:58 PM
That's not a benchmark. A benchmark isn't the outlier, it's roughly around the mean.

I imagine the best way to do a benchmark is:
1) Grab new player (Alt: Have a group of experienced people all build a "casual" build, and then build a build that is about average between them. If a build already is at this spot, just use that)
2) Get him to build a Sorcerer to level 1, 5, 11, 15, 21, 25, 30, using whatever he wants (Reasoning: Sorcerer's are about the "mean" of strikers)
3) Ensure the resulting build is not made of cheese (IE: The new player is better at the system then you thought, or the group doesn't understand the meaning of casual).
4) Calculate DPR/T (Damage per Round per Target), as well as DPE* (Damage Per Encounter - Simply add up the DPR/T for each round that a normal encounter takes place. Divide by numbers of rounds), and DPD** (Damage per day - Add together the damage per encounters, and divide by number of encounters in a day.)
5) Express this as "1 SD" (Striker Damage). To evaluate other characters, take:

X = Damage_Non_Bechmark_Build / Damage_Benchmark_Build
Where "X" is how many SD that a character has.
A good striker will have quite a high X. A bad Striker will have quite a low X.

If anyone was interested in doing this, I'd be happy to volunteer with assisting.

Edit:
*: This may vary based on many factors, and an average number should be decided
**: This may vary based on many factors, and an average number should be decided.

DiscipleofBob
2010-02-04, 07:08 PM
I think I have to restate something.

I'm not interested in class tiers or who people think are the best classes. Everyone has their own opinion.

The only thing I'm interested in are numbers.

Okay, so the ranger apparently has the highest DPR. What's that number? How much higher is it than the other classes? What kind of dice are rolled? How much comes from class features and how much comes from other sources?

Gralamin
2010-02-04, 07:11 PM
I think I have to restate something.

I'm not interested in class tiers or who people think are the best classes. Everyone has their own opinion.

The only thing I'm interested in are numbers.

Okay, so the ranger apparently has the highest DPR. What's that number? How much higher is it than the other classes? What kind of dice are rolled? How much comes from class features and how much comes from other sources?

Depends on the build, depends on the build, depends on the build, and depends on the build.

There are a lot of different tricks. Combine with no benchmark standard, and it becomes very hard to keep track of about where each class is, except through a relative, numberless scale, as Edea gave. A benchmark like I suggested would give numbers pretty easily.

Artanis
2010-02-04, 07:56 PM
Okay, so the ranger apparently has the highest DPR. What's that number? How much higher is it than the other classes? What kind of dice are rolled? How much comes from class features and how much comes from other sources?

Where Rangers get their damage is that they have assloads of something that is rare in other classes: multi-attack powers. Rangers hit their targets over and over and over in the same attack, piling up static damage modifiers. Anything that increases damage per hit (like your stat mods, weapon enhancement bonus, and enemy vulnerabilities) is going to be applied again and again and again every time you attack. And those static damage boosts can add up FAST.

Saintjebus
2010-02-04, 08:26 PM
Where Rangers get their damage is that they have assloads of something that is rare in other classes: multi-attack powers. Rangers hit their targets over and over and over in the same attack, piling up static damage modifiers. Anything that increases damage per hit (like your stat mods, weapon enhancement bonus, and enemy vulnerabilities) is going to be applied again and again and again every time you attack. And those static damage boosts can add up FAST.

This is very, very true. I have had well built rangers just destroy encounters that were supposed to be challenging.

randomhero00
2010-02-04, 09:32 PM
benchmark- I mean maximum, you know what I mean :P



This is very, very true. I have had well built rangers just destroy encounters that were supposed to be challenging.

Twin Strike is the main at will, double attack in one round thing. But they should only be getting 1 quary damage die (and it has to be the closest target) and they can't add their dex as dmg to twin to shot either. By the sound of it it seems like some might be.

So the only bonuses (to twin strike) are from weapon mods and 1d6 of quary. So heroic tier with a +1 weapon should be doing about (greatbow, requires feat for the extra dmg, notice that a barb 1d12 weap doesn't) 1d12 + 1 + 1d12 + 1 + 1d6 = avg 17. Which is not much higher than most optimized strikers should be doing (if at all).

For instance, a barb, same level. using at will devastating strike (their encounter and dailys also tend to do more than ranger's) can do 1d12 + 1d8 + str/mods (+7 on the build I just whipped up) = 17 avg dmg. Exact same.

Things may change at higher levels though, I've only played at lower levels in 4e.

edit: the pro with ranger is that you get to roll to hit twice, so if one misses you can hit again (which would bring up the average damage vs high ac targets...no idea by how much tho). the con though is that quarry only applies to the closest enemy and you often need to hit the bady behind enemy lines (which brings their avg dmg back down again a bit.)

Artanis
2010-02-04, 09:45 PM
benchmark- I mean maximum, you know what I mean :P




Twin Strike is the main at will, double attack in one round thing. But they should only be getting 1 quary damage die (and it has to be the closest target) and they can't add their dex as dmg to twin to shot either. By the sound of it it seems like some might be.

So the only bonuses are from weapon mods and 1d6 of quary. So heroic tier with a +1 weapon should be doing about (greatbow) 1d12 + 1 + 1d12 + 1 + 1d6 = avg 17. Which is not much higher than most optimized strikers should be doing (if at all).

For instance, a barb, same level. using at will devastating strike (their encounter and dailys also tend to do more than ranger's) can do 1d12 + 1d8 + str/mods (+7 on the build I just whipped up) = 17 avg dmg. Exact same.

Things may change at higher levels though, I've only played at lower levels in 4e.

edit: the pro with ranger is that you get to roll to hit twice, so if one misses you can still try to hit again. the con though is that quarry only applies to the closest enemy and you often need to hit the bady behind enemy lines.

It does change at higher levels.

Quarry is a very small part of the Ranger's damage.

As for Twin Strike, isn't just Twin Strike that hits multiple times. Every level has multi-attack powers.

Barbarian Encounter and Daily powers only look like they do more than those of a Ranger because there's bigger numbers in front of the [w]s. The static modifiers that a Ranger can pile up outstrips that. There is simply so much you can do to boost per-hit damage that it gets real big real fast when you're hitting two, three, four, or even five times with every standard action.



You're looking at early on when there's only so much you can do to add static bonuses. Think about when that enhancement bonus reaches +6, or when weapon focus gets to +3. Or hell, just look at when the enhancement bonus reaches +2 and you throw in a Leader with a per-hit damage boost. It changes, and changes soon.

randomhero00
2010-02-04, 09:58 PM
Ah nm then :) Well maybe those numbers can be useful to the OP for early levels though.

edit what powers let you hit so many times tho, so i know what to look out for?

As I think I've planned my ranger up to 10ish and I don't remember any powers letting me hit more than twice. But I might be misremembering.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-04, 10:09 PM
Hmm... I'm going to take a shot at this. First of all, let me get some baseline assumptions out of the way. I'm going to build a character of each class optimized purely for damage. I'm going to presume the character has 18 for their primary stat and 14 for their most commonly used secondary, this leaves room for a person who wants to shift stats around or doesn't want to use a specific race. I will not use any race specific feats. I'm also going to assume a character with a +2 proficiency bonus (and appropriate enhancement bonus) targeting AC will hit 55% of the time. Any conditional damage modifiers like sneak attack or the avenger's censure will be considered to come into effect 50% of the time (note that things like the avenger's oath will be considered to be in effect all the time as that has more to do with the character's choice of target than the situation). I'm also going to ignore feats and magic weapons for simplicity.

Avenger
at will(at level 1) = 11.76 = 0.75(6.5 (1d12) + 4 (wis) + 2 (censure)) + 0.0975(24.5 (high crit))
encounter(1,3,7) = 17.81 = 0.75(13 (2d12) + 4 (wis)+ 2 (censure)) + 0.0975(36.5)
daily(1,5,9) = 27.04 = 0.75(19.5 (3d12) + 6) + 0.0975(48.5) + 0.25(12.75 (half dmg on miss)

Barbarian
at will = 9.16 = 0.5(6.5 (d12) + 4.5 (d8) + 4 (str)) + 0.05(30.5 (high crit) + 0.25 (6.5 (d12) + 4 (str))(rampage ability))
encounter (1, 7) = 14.21 = 0.5(19.5 (3d12) + 4 (str)) + 0.05 (46.5 + 0.25(10.5))
encounter (5) = 10.56 = 0.5(13 (2d12) + 4(str)) + 0.05(34.5 + 0.25(10.5))
daily (1,5,9) = 19.49 = 0.5(19.5 (3d12) + 4 (str)) + 0.05 (46.5 + 0.25(10.5)) + 0.45 (11.75 (half dmg on miss))
Rage Strike (5) 23.39
Rage Strike (9) 27.19

Ranger
ranger benefits twice as much from static mods as other class so it's dpr grows more with levels, although even with an extra +4 from feats and items the dpr would only be 2 higher than most classes and only about 1 higher than the avenger
at will = 9.3 = 0.5 (5.5 (D10)) + 0.5 (5.5 (d10)) + 0.8 (3.5 (hunter's quarry)) + 0.05 (10) + 0.05 (10)
encounter (1) = 14.3 = 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ)) + .3(2 (bonus damage if both attacks hit)) + 0.05(14) + 0.05(14)
encounter (3) = 13.7 = 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ)) + 0.05(14) + 0.05(14)
encounter (7) = 16.95 = 0.5(11 (2d10) + 4) + 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ)) + 0.05(24) + 0.05(14)
daily(1) = 20.2 = 0.5 (11 (2d10) + 4) x 2 + 0.05 (24) x 2 + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ))
daily(5) = 25.43 = (0.5(11 (2d10) + 4) + 0.5(5.5 (d10) + 4) + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ)) + 0.05(24) + 0.05(14)) x 1.5 (possibly two targets)
daily(9) = 26.5 = 0.5 (16.5 (3d10) + 4) x2 + 0.05(34) x2 + 0.8 (3.5 (HQ))

Rogue (brutal scoundrel type)
Gains about 2 damage if you're good enough to set up combat advantage nearly every round. Also, I was too lazy to look at martial power, ther might be more damaging powers in there
at will = 8.53 = 0.6 (2.5 (dagger) + 4 (dex) + 2 (cha) + 0.5 (9 (sneak attack))) + 0.05 (10 + 4.5 (sneak attack))
encounter(1) = 10.23 = 0.6(5 (2d4) + 4 (dex) + 2 (str) + 4.5 (SA)) + 0.05 (18.5)
encounter(3) = 8.93 = 0.6(5 (2d4) + 4 (dex) + 4.5 (SA)) + 0.05 (16.5)
encounter(7) = 11.45 = 0.6(5 (2d4) + 4 (dex) + 4.5 (SA)) + 0.05 (16.5) + 0.35(0.6(2.5 + 4 + 4.5) + 0.05(12.5))
daily(1) = 20.14 = 13.43 x 1.5 = (0.6(5 (2d4) + 4 + 9 (full sneak attack because it sets up combat advantage)) + 0.05(21) + 0.35 (4.5 (miss dmg)) x 1.5 (blast 3)
daily(5) = 22.46 = 0.7(5 + 4 + 4.5 + 14 (ongoing dmg) + 0.05(16.5 + 14) + 0.25(6.75 (miss dmg)

Warlock
at will = 8.03 = 0.55 (5.5 (d10) + 4 (attribute) + 3.5 (curse)) + 0.05 (17.5)
encounter(1) = 11.08 = 0.6(9 (2d8) + 4 + 3.5) + 0.05 (23.5)
encounter(3) = 16.8 = 0.55(10.5 (3d6) + 4 +3.5) + 0.05 (25.5) + 0.75(3.5 (d6) + 4 (attribute))
encounter(7) = 11.38 = (0.5(7 (2d6) + 4) + 0.05 (16)) x 1.5(blast 3) + 0.55(3.5)
daily(1) = 25.08 = 0.55(16.5 (3d10) + 4 + 3.5) + 0.05 (37.5) + 10 (ongoing dmg)
daily(5) = 21.55 = 0.55(11 (2d10) + 4 + 3.5) + 0.05 (27.5) + 10 (ongoing dmg)

Sorcerer
at will = 7.13 = 0.55 (5.5 (d10) + 4(cha) + 2(secondary attribute)) + 0.05 (16)
encounter (1) = 9.8 = 0.5(11 (2d10) + 4 (cha) + 2 (2ndary)) + 0.05 (26)
encounter (3,7) = 14.03 = 9.35 x 1.5 = (0.55(9 (2d8) + 4 + 2) + 0.05 (22)) x 1.5 (burst 1)
daily (1) = 30.53 = 20.35 x 1.5 = (0.95(9 (2d8) +4 + 2) + 0.5 (10 (ongoing damage)) + 0.05(22)) x 1.5 (1 or 2 targets)
daily (5,9) = 18.68 = 0.55(16.5 (3d10) + 4 + 2) + 0.05 (36) + 0.4 (11.25 (miss damage)


Alright, I'm tired so I'm gonna call it a night for now and finish it up tomorrow, unless everybody hates my numbers so far... I'm actually kinda surprised by them so far... we'll see how it turns out.

Artanis
2010-02-04, 10:33 PM
Ah nm then :) Well maybe those numbers can be useful to the OP for early levels though.

edit what powers let you hit so many times tho, so i know what to look out for?

As I think I've planned my ranger up to 10ish and I don't remember any powers letting me hit more than twice. But I might be misremembering.

The earliest one I can think of is Jarring Salvo, a L9 Daily in Martial Power (assuming Spitting Cobra Stance doesn't count). Others that come to mind are the infamous Blade Cascade (L15 daily), Triple Shot (L17 encounter), and Five-Missile Dance (L29 daily). There's others, this is just off the top of my head.


As an aside, Jarring Salvo actually isn't that good, especially compared to Attacks on the Run. The others I mentioned are all pretty good though.



Edit: Addendum


*stuff*

I see a couple problems. The first is fairly obvious: if you assume a 55% hit rate, you have to assume that specials (e.g. HQ, WC, etc) trigger 55% of the time, not 50%.

The other is that feats and items can play a big role. Even if you ignore all the other item properties, weapon enhancement bonuses are one of the primary suppliers of the static damage that Rangers thrive on.

falconflicker
2010-02-04, 11:38 PM
Three things:

1st, I did a 1st level calculation, assuming average defenses, and an 18 in both the primary attribute and the 2ndary attribute, for the ones that are fully supported, the numbers are as follows:
(I assumed that a flank is not difficult to set up, and that an avenger will either be hit, or be capable of isolating his/her target.)
(these are all averages, the ranger can deal 3 points more max than the rogue, etc.)
Dagger Rogue, 14.075 per round
Longbow Ranger, 11.335 per round
Warlock, 9.325 per round
Greatsword Avenger, 9.345 per round (being generous about isolation)
Greataxe Barbarian, 10.775 per round
Sorcerer, 10.35 per round

2nd, why are you trying to make a Dragoon into a striker. They're likely to be too difficult to hit to fit the striker defenses. I would think that Jump would make a great Defender stickiness feature, a la assault swordmage, or a basis for controller powers.

3rd, I've often seen sorcerers who are more willing to multiclass Wizard for Expand Spell

rayne_dragon
2010-02-05, 12:48 AM
I see a couple problems. The first is fairly obvious: if you assume a 55% hit rate, you have to assume that specials (e.g. HQ, WC, etc) trigger 55% of the time, not 50%.

The other is that feats and items can play a big role. Even if you ignore all the other item properties, weapon enhancement bonuses are one of the primary suppliers of the static damage that Rangers thrive on.

To address the first issue, the 50% of the time is how often a condition which the player doesn't have control over comes up independant of if the attack hits. For specials like Hunter's Quarry and Warlock's Curse, the character can reliably use them, so they are counted for their full value when the character hits.

As for ignoring items and feats, I think that it's fairly safe to ignore them (at least for heroic tier only) since 1) they provide the same bonuses regardless of what class takes them, 2) the amount they add is generally only 0.5 - 1 average damage, and 3) the damage should still be proportional to what I've listed

SoC175
2010-02-05, 01:21 AM
Twin Strike is the main at will, double attack in one round thing. But they should only be getting 1 quary damage die (and it has to be the closest target) and they can't add their dex as dmg to twin to shot either. By the sound of it it seems like some might be.

So the only bonuses (to twin strike) are from weapon mods and 1d6 of quary. So heroic tier with a +1 weapon should be doing about (greatbow, requires feat for the extra dmg, notice that a barb 1d12 weap doesn't) 1d12 + 1 + 1d12 + 1 + 1d6 = avg 17. Which is not much higher than most optimized strikers should be doing (if at all).
At the very begining of HT you're right. But at the end of HT you should already be adding Weapon Focus on each hit and Iron Armbands of Power on each hit with your +2 (if not already +3) weapon.

So that's a +5/+6 you are applying twice as the cost of not applying your +5 Ability-Mod once like the others are doings.

Gralamin
2010-02-05, 02:37 AM
1) they provide the same bonuses regardless of what class takes them
Actually provides double for Rangers, and sometimes triple.

2) the amount they add is generally only 0.5 - 1 average damage
They amount to far more then that

and 3) the damage should still be proportional to what I've listed

You'd be surprised.

Here's a sample of ranger I built in about 5 minutes, at level 7:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Cliff, level 7
Longtooth Shifter, Ranger
Fighting Style: Two-Blade Fighting Style
Background: Occupation - Hired Killer (+2 to Athletics)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 19, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 8.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8.


AC: 19 Fort: 19 Reflex: 16 Will: 18
HP: 58 Surges: 6 Surge Value: 14

TRAINED SKILLS
Dungeoneering +12, Heal +12, Nature +12, Athletics +15, Perception +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +3, Arcana +3, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Endurance +4, History +3, Insight +7, Intimidate +2, Religion +3, Stealth +3, Streetwise +2, Thievery +3

FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Expertise (Heavy Blade)
Level 2: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
Level 4: Hunter's Aim
Level 6: Lethal Hunter

POWERS
Ranger at-will 1: Twin Strike
Ranger at-will 1: Hit and Run
Ranger encounter 1: Off-Hand Strike
Ranger daily 1: Jaws of the Wolf
Ranger utility 2: Hunter's Privilege
Ranger encounter 3: Thundertusk Boar Strike
Ranger daily 5: Two-Wolf Pounce
Ranger utility 6: Death Threat
Ranger encounter 7: Ruffling Sting

ITEMS
Quick Longsword +1, Quick Longsword +2, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Hide Armor of Resistance +2, Cloak of Distortion +1
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Attack Modifier of +13. AC is usually level+14, other defenses are usually ~level+11 (Source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/229092-lots-statistics-monster-manual.html)). Thats a 65% hit rate against AC, and a 80% against other Defenses. In this case, all of his powers are against AC. (-5% for offhand)

Complete Damage analysis below:

Quarry damage: +4.5, or +8 on a crit.
The chance of at least 1 of two attacks critting with a 5% chance is: 0.0975.
The chance of at least 1 of three attacks critting with a 5% chance is: 0.142625.
The chance of at least one of a 65% and two 60% attacks hitting is: 0.944
The chance of at least one of a 65% and one 60% attacks hitting is: 0.86
The chance of at least one of a 71% and one 60% attacks hitting is: 0.884

Damage per round:
Round 1) Twin Strike + Off-Hand Strike

0.35*0+0.6*(4.5+5)+0.05*(8+5+7) = 6.7 (Main hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+4)+0.05*(8+4+3.5) = 5.45 (Off hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+8)+0.05*(8+8+3.5) = 7.85 (Off-Hand Strike)
0.142625*8+0.801375*4.5 = 4.7471875 (Quarry)
-------------------------------------
6.7+5.45+7.85+4.7471875 = 24.7471875

Round 2) Twin Strike + Ruffling Sting


0.35*0+0.6*(4.5+5)+0.05*(8+5+7) = 6.7 (Main hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+4)+0.05*(8+4+3.5) = 5.45 (Off hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+8)+0.05*(8+8+3.5) = 7.85 (Ruffling Sting)
0.142625*8+0.801375*4.5 = 4.7471875 (Quarry)
-------------------------------------
6.7+5.45+7.85+4.7471875 = 24.7471875

Round 3) Thundertusk Boar Strike
60% chance for Ruffling sting to hit -> +1.2 From CA, overall -> +6%


0.39*0+0.66*(4.5+9)+0.05*(8+9+7) = 10.11 (Main hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+8)+0.05*(8+8+3.5) = 7.85 (Off hand)
0.0975*8+0.7865*4.5 = 4.31925 (Quarry)
-------------------------------------
10.11+7.85+4.31925 = 22.27925

Every Additional round without a daily:

0.35*0+0.6*(4.5+5)+0.05*(8+5+7) = 6.7 (Main hand)
0.40*0+0.55*(4.5+4)+0.05*(8+4+3.5) = 5.45 (Off hand)
0.0975*8+0.7625*4.5 = 4.21125 (Quarry)
-------------------------------------
6.7+5.45+4.21125 = 16.36125

Daily: Jaws of the Wolf

0.35*0.5*(9+9)+0.6*(9+9)+0.05*(16+9+7) = 15.55 (Main Hand)
0.40*0.5*(9+8)+0.6*(9+8)+0.05*(16+8+3.5) = 14.975 (Off Hand)
0.0975*8+0.7625*4.5 = 4.21125 (Quarry)
--------------------------------------
15.55+14.975+4.21125 = 34.73625

Daily: Two Wolf Pounce


0.35*0+0.6*(9+9)+0.05*(16+9+7) = 12.4 (Main Hand)
0.40*0+0.6*(4.5+8)+0.05*(8+8+3.5) = 8.475 (Off Hand)
0.40*0+0.6*(9+4)+0.05*(9+4+3.5) = 8.625 (Off Hand secondary target)
0.0975*8+0.7625*4.5 = 4.21125 (Quarry hits primary)
0.007*8+0.084*4.5 = 0.434 (Quarry hits Secondary)
--------------------------------------
12.4+8.475+4.22125 = 25.09625
+9.059 against a second creature

So, In one encounter, this ranger deals:

24.7471875+24.7471875+22.27925+16.36125*X
= 71.773625+16.36125*X Where X is the number of rounds of using only twin strike. In addition, they can use their daily powers.

rayne_dragon
2010-02-05, 03:00 AM
Yeah, I realized my mistake on the ranger there... you can probably tell I haven't made one before. =p

Anyways, I just wanted to make it more simplified for me while I figured out the damage for a bunch of powers for a bunch of classes. You make a good point about the hit rate too, I didn't think to look for something with the numbers to get a more accurate hit rate. I do seem to recall that somewhere somebody had figured out that reflex is usually lower than fortitude and will is usually the lowest defence... I tried to factor that in as well.

Gralamin
2010-02-05, 03:04 AM
Well, its really actually a bunch of simple calculations, if you know how to do them. This is why trying to abstract it doesn't really work well though, its easy to miss key things. Much easier just to build the dang things and calculate from there. Its just basic probability combined with basic math, after all.

Artanis
2010-02-05, 12:27 PM
Yeah, I realized my mistake on the ranger there... you can probably tell I haven't made one before. =p

Don't worry, it's an easy mistake to make. A +1 here, a +3 there, doesn't seem that much compared to extra [w]s with a 1d12 weapon. Often, it's not until you really look at it closely that you see just how much those add up to :smallwink:

rayne_dragon
2010-02-05, 03:00 PM
I'm actually quite aware of how much static modifiers add up - I play a wizard and most of my damage comes from those little pluses spread across as many targets as I can manage. I just assumed that it matters less because rangers only get two targets.

Still, a ranger with two +2 weapons and weapon focus only has an extra +3 (reduced by about 2/3 because of accuracy) which is only an extra +2 damage over other classes with the same kind of accuracy, less compared to a class with with more bonuses to hit.

Artanis
2010-02-05, 03:56 PM
And then his stat mod gives him an extra +5 when it's applied a second time, and then Armbands of Power/Bracers of Archery gives him another +2 when it's applied a second time, and monster vulnerabilities give him an extra +5 (or more) when they're applied a second time...


It's not just that they add up. It's that they add up again and again and again :smallwink:



Edit: Addendum

As for accuracy, an honest question: what Strikers (other than possibly the Avenger) have an accuracy advantage over the Ranger? The Ranger is just as accurate on any given attack roll as any other weapon-using class. The Ranger, however, has a higher chance of getting something - and thus applying those all-important static modifiers - due to the fact that they're attacking so many times.

Doug Lampert
2010-02-05, 05:11 PM
And then his stat mod gives him an extra +5 when it's applied a second time, and then Armbands of Power/Bracers of Archery gives him another +2 when it's applied a second time, and monster vulnerabilities give him an extra +5 (or more) when they're applied a second time...


It's not just that they add up. It's that they add up again and again and again :smallwink:



Edit: Addendum

As for accuracy, an honest question: what Strikers (other than possibly the Avenger) have an accuracy advantage over the Ranger? The Ranger is just as accurate on any given attack roll as any other weapon-using class. The Ranger, however, has a higher chance of getting something - and thus applying those all-important static modifiers - due to the fact that they're attacking so many times.

His stat mod doesn't add to twin strike damage.

Rogues get +4 to hit AC from proficiency and rogue, bow rangers get +2, greatsword barbarians get +3, avengers are obviously the best off if they can arrange to be adjacent to only one foe, Warlocks and Sorcerers are typically going against a NAD, and likely against their CHOICE of NAD.

Edit: Sword rangers need two weapons, which tends to largely counteract the extra +1 for a sword.

Rangers are one of the least accurate of the strikers. They almost ALWAYS hit AC and they get no special bonus to do so.

Artanis
2010-02-05, 05:44 PM
His stat mod doesn't add to twin strike damage.

I know that stat mods don't affect Twin Strike. I was more referring to the tons of powers like Two-Fanged Strike or Attacks on the Run or Blade Cascade that DO add stat modifiers.

And besides, even without the stat mods, other static modifiers are still enough to push Twin Strike past other at-wills anyways :smallwink:



Rogues get +4 to hit AC from proficiency and rogue, bow rangers get +2, greatsword barbarians get +3, avengers are obviously the best off if they can arrange to be adjacent to only one foe, Warlocks and Sorcerers are typically going against a NAD, and likely against their CHOICE of NAD.

Edit: Sword rangers need two weapons, which tends to largely counteract the extra +1 for a sword.

Rangers are one of the least accurate of the strikers. They almost ALWAYS hit AC and they get no special bonus to do so.

Thank you, that's what I was wondering :smallsmile:

Doug Lampert
2010-02-05, 06:06 PM
I know that stat mods don't affect Twin Strike. I was more referring to the tons of powers like Two-Fanged Strike or Attacks on the Run or Blade Cascade that DO add stat modifiers.

And besides, even without the stat mods, other static modifiers are still enough to push Twin Strike past other at-wills anyways :smallwink:



Thank you, that's what I was wondering :smallsmile:

You're welcome.

And I do agree. Twin strike is the best At-will in the game by a large margin. My wife is playing a human ranger and I think in going from level 1 to 12 she's used one other at will power once. And that was pretty clearly a mistake in terms of effectiveness. She'd trade both other at-wills for something USEFUL in a heartbeat.

The only power-gaming reason I can see to paragon multiclassing is to get twin-strike for some other class.

Since Mary got Lasting Frost, Wintertouched, and a Frost longbow her twinstrike damage is clearly substantially better than anyone else's at will damage and quite comparable to most encounter powers. But prior to that it was mearly pretty good, her lower chance of hitting had let the Avenger keep up quite nicely and the Rogue stay ahead if he had combat advantage, and the avenger isn't even really optimized for damage (she's optimized for speed and mobility).

Gralamin
2010-02-05, 08:03 PM
The only power-gaming reason I can see to paragon multiclassing is to get twin-strike for some other class.

Avengers actually frequently do this, if they are not going epic. Having both attacks almost always hit is very much worth it.

Granted, most Avengers have few avenger powers AT ALL.