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Giegue
2010-02-04, 04:43 PM
The offical thread on the pale master, is the one caster level lost worth all those abilities, or is it a waste of a class? I frankly find it to be a very flavorful class and great for a wizard based necromancer who wants to actually feel like a necromancer rather then a wizard with a love for negative energy. Animate Dead as a spell-like ability and free of charge makes clerics envy you, and you get all kinds of neat touch attacks, adding to the wizard necromancer's more "drain and damage" theme. I generally find the undead armor feats worthless, though. Any arcane spell failure is bad, even if it's only 10%. So when I run the class I usually homebrew the feat to read that you do not suffer any arcane spell failure in undead armor, or I just stick to robes.

As for the touch attacks, some of them are better then others, my personal favorite is the save or die that animates the victim as a zombie. The negative levels and paralyzing ones are also fun.

While the one caster level hit can be a pain, I generally find the flavor of the class is worth it, at least for me. Besides, one caster level loss is nothing the practiced spell caster feat can't fix.

But how about you, hate the class because you feel it's underpowered? Love the flavor like me? Think it's powerful enough, or even overpowered? Share your thoughts on the class.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-04, 04:46 PM
Wizards have to be in melee to use touch attacks. This is generally regarded as a bad thing.

Draz74
2010-02-04, 04:48 PM
Besides, one caster level loss is nothing the practiced spell caster feat can't fix.]

Actually, it is ... Practiced Spellcaster won't fix your number of spells known, or spells per day, or maximum spell level ...

To answer the main question, I'm no expert on Pale Master, but I think Dread Necromancer kind of killed any popularity it used to have.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 04:48 PM
It's decent in PnP, horrible in NWN.

Immune to criticals/sneak attack is a worthwhile buff for losing 1 CL, and Animate Dead as an SLA is a great cashsaver.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 04:52 PM
Indeed, it's horrible in NWN. As for Dread Necromancer, yes, it's far superior, but the pale master for me is more of a fun class then something for powergaming. My reasons for it are flavor ones. If I wanted a powergaming necromancer I would just run a pure cleric because generally clerics are better necromancers without any homebrew. Also, the necromancer from "The Secret Collage of Necromancy" by Green Ronin puts the pale master AND dread necro to shame, however that class has been called overpowered by many, though that dose not stop me from ruining it occasionally.

And also, yes, I know the flaws of the practiced spell caster feat, but generally the loss of one caster level dose not scare me as much as most people, but I suppose that's because I'm an RPer, not a powergamer. I play classes for role play reasons first, power reasons second. I also am usually a GM and not a player, hence why I tend to be more of an RPer and world builder then powergamer, because I find myself playing entire worlds more often then not.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 05:00 PM
Indeed, it's horrible in NWN. As for Dread Necromancer, yes, it's far superior, but the pale master for me is more of a fun class then something for powergaming. My reasons for it are flavor ones. If I wanted a powergaming necromancer I would just run a pure cleric because generally clerics are better necromancers without any homebrew. Also, the necromancer from "The Secret Collage of Necromancy" by Green Ronin puts the pale master AND dread necro to shame, however that class has been called overpowered by many, though that dose not stop me from ruining it occasionally.


You are aware that the necromancer from Secret College gets 9th level spell access at level 16 yes?

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 05:02 PM
There is nothing wrong with losing 1 CL, especially for a wizard. The immunities you gain are well worth it unless you're a Necropolitan or a Warforged.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 05:04 PM
Yes, but I use a homebrew variant of the class. I use the same spell tables as a wizard and change the energy drain spell like ability to enervation as a spell like ability instead. I find the class to be decent that way, and great if you want to play a necromancer who's not aligned to some church or god and fits the scheming, smart, black robed stereotype.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 05:07 PM
There is nothing wrong with losing 1 CL, especially for a wizard. The immunities you gain are well worth it unless you're a Necropolitan or a Warforged.

Losing 1 CL is extremely noticeable, though, and all those immunities are replicated with level 2-5 spells.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 05:13 PM
Yes, but I use a homebrew variant of the class. I use the same spell tables as a wizard and change the energy drain spell like ability to enervation as a spell like ability instead. I find the class to be decent that way, and great if you want to play a necromancer who's not aligned to some church or god and fits the scheming, smart, black robed stereotype.

That seems highly reasonable, although I'd still be worried about the lack of crunch details on some of the spells in the book which provide easy headaches and the repeated confusion between material components and focuses. But overall that should work.

JaronK
2010-02-04, 05:23 PM
I feel like the Palemaster is really only for the 2 level dip to get free Animate Dead, which is an issue only in some games anyway. If you want an army of undead and your campaign situation makes it hard to get Onyxes, then it's probably worthwhile. If that's not the case, then it's probably not. Though the ability to punch someone so hard they die and turn into a zombie is pretty awesome.

Note that eventually you'll get Plague of Undead anyway, which completely trumps Animate Dead. Also, Spell Stitching does this much better. But if those aren't available (usually because you're too low level and your DM won't let you spell stitch) then Palemaster may be solid.

JaronK

Giegue
2010-02-04, 05:23 PM
The spells I also homebrew a bit. I tend to homebrew spells more then anything else anyway. I have never actually fully homebrewed a PrC or base class, but I have homebrewed loads and loads of spells, and in my 3.5 campaigns it is fully possible for a wizard to be equal to a cleric in necromancy through homebrew spells. I also tend to alter exsisting PrCs that are underpowered but have unique flavor. Examples being the Pale Master who I give full CL progression and no arcane spell failure in undead armor. I also did the same for the True Necromancer, making it an Arcane PrC instead of a divine/arcane one and altering some of the abilities for it to fit as a purely arcane class.

I however, don't usually share my homebrew content online since I have no need for critiques on it, though if there's any demand for it I may think twice.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 05:49 PM
Losing 1 CL is extremely noticeable, though, and all those immunities are replicated with level 2-5 spells.

There are a million ways to negate magic, but Deathless Mastery is (Ex.)

And again, free Animate Dead.

1 CL isn't that big a deal - you still get 9ths.

Oslecamo
2010-02-04, 05:55 PM
1 CL isn't that big a deal - you still get 9ths.

Indeed, despite all the ruckus, losing 1CL will not auto-kill your wizard.

This is, sorcerors are always one spell level behind wizards, and that doesn't stop them from breaking reality into tiny pieces.

I love the 3.5 pale master myself. 3.0 one kinda sucked as it was just half-caster, but now that it is 9/10 caster, it's pretty flavourfull and animate dead SLA is simply delicious for longer campaigns, where you can animate your minions and sacrifice them whitout worries or expending a single GP or needing cheesy money loops.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 06:15 PM
Yeah, the free animate dead is one of the main reasons I love this class, and if I'm not mistaken, the free animate dead allows you to get animate dead sooner then a pure wizard...or am I wrong, I forget what level pure wizards get animate dead...I believe it's a 4th level spell, so that means that you need to be level 8 to get it normally. You can take pale master at 6th level if I am not mistaken, which means you get a free animate dead at 7th, one level before a plain old wizard gets the costly version. Your still one level behind a cleric for animation, but since your a wizard based necromancer you're most likely not going for the army anyway, and the immunities and free animation abilities are great. The touch abilities may not be that useful to a mage, but they are still fun and flavorful, and may actually be useful if you slap on a bull's strength and some other arcane buffs.

Townopolis
2010-02-04, 06:35 PM
Forgive me for not having my books with me at the moment, but can't you deliver touch attacks through spectral hand?

Giegue
2010-02-04, 06:38 PM
Usually, yes, but I'm not sure if that works for the Pale Master's touch attacks, since they come from his undead graft, rather then spells, so I assume you would have to use the undead arm to deliver them.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 06:38 PM
Forgive me for not having my books with me at the moment, but can't you deliver touch attacks through spectral hand?

Spectral hand only lets you deliver spells.

Edit: Gieque, I'd be interested in seeing some of that homebrew. I find necromancy to be woefully underloved.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 06:41 PM
Yeah, many of the spells are actually conversions from AD&D, though some are more original. As for classes, like I said, I mostly alter existing ones, though my True Necromancer is almost it's own class since it's been modified so much. I may post some of it up, when I dig it all up

Lamech
2010-02-04, 06:48 PM
And don't forget the free cohort. That guy rocks so hard. Also IIRC, the tomb and blood version could get recursion if the undead pet took pale master.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 07:34 PM
There are a million ways to negate magic, but Deathless Mastery is (Ex.)

That's sort of like the "monk's an ok class because you might get locked up in prison" argument. Besides, nost of the time, things that are shooting sneak attacks & critical hits at you aren't going to have a high enough CL to strip you of your buffs.


Indeed, despite all the ruckus, losing 1CL will not auto-kill your wizard.

1 CL isn't that big a deal - you still get 9ths.

Losing a caster level is quite noticeable, if you are playing from level 1 to 20. Delaying your spell level progression is something you should think long and hard about. If you get to start at a high enough level where you have all the spells you want, sure, it's good. But as a sorcerer, waiting until level 4 to get to second level spells is a bummer. I play a lot of multiclassed casters who have stunted spell progression because it's a very noticeable power check. Having to go through 13.3 encounters without an entire level of spells that I could have had can be frustrating.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 08:08 PM
Indeed, that is true, but it all depends on how much your getting in return for the lost level, and how willing you are to lose a caster level for what you may gain. If you hate losing a caster level that much, then the Pale Master class is not something you would ever want to invest it, but in the end it depends on what a player feels they are willing to give up. The caster level may be a big hit, but if the class fits your character concept and if what you feel you get from it is worth it, the Pale Master can be a half way decent class. It's no powergaming class, but D&D is not all about powergaming, no?

I'm not saying the class is any tier 1 or even tier 2, but I am saying for what it dose, both flavor wise and mechanically, it dose a half way decent job, and is a fun class to boot.

Also, to JohsuaZ, I'm still iffy about putting my homebrew because quite frankly I am not seeking any criticism for it ATM.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 08:40 PM
Indeed, that is true, but it all depends on how much your getting in return for the lost level, and how willing you are to lose a caster level for what you may gain. If you hate losing a caster level that much, then the Pale Master class is not something you would ever want to invest it, but in the end it depends on what a player feels they are willing to give up. The caster level may be a big hit, but if the class fits your character concept and if what you feel you get from it is worth it, the Pale Master can be a half way decent class. It's no powergaming class, but D&D is not all about powergaming, no?

IMO, from a power standpoint, and given that everything published is available, there's no reason to ever lose caster levels when building a caster, because of the plethora of insanely powerful prestige classes out there.

Even then, spells are so awesome, and the discrete way characters gain them, makes losing spells a BIG deal for a casty character. Usually you're going to want to get something really sweet out of losing caster levels.

I think Pale Master is one of the few prestige classes where losing the caster level is kind of worth it, so long as the flavor and feel of the class is concerned, and you aren't quasi-gimping your character (like mindspy or mindbender does). With that said, I really don't think the handful of immunities that can all be replicated by spells, your race, items, or templates, are worth the lost caster level, in a pure power discussion.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 08:56 PM
Yeah, but this is not purely about powergaming, and there are no other PrCs that I know of for wizards/sorcerers that I know of that deal in necromancy. If there are any you know, feel free to tell me, but as far as wizard/sorcerer necro PrCs go, the pale master may be the only one in existence beyond homebrew. So, RP wise, if you want to play a necromancer who's not a cleric, your only options are pure wizard, wizard(or other arcane spellcasting class)/pale master, Dread Necro or homebrew, unless there are some classes I'm missing?

JaronK
2010-02-04, 09:03 PM
Yeah, but this is not purely about powergaming, and there are no other PrCs that I know of for wizards/sorcerers that I know of that deal in necromancy. If there are any you know, feel free to tell me, but as far as wizard/sorcerer necro PrCs go, the pale master may be the only one in existence beyond homebrew.

True Necromancer, though it's for Wizard/Clerics, and the other hit against that class is it's horrifically bad. Also, Runesmith is not thematically specifically for necromancers, but it's actually an incredible necromancer class (spell like Animate Dread Warrior, Animate Dead, and Awaken Undead? Yes please!). That class requires being a dwarf, and the fluff is just about drawing runes to get your magic power, so while it's not set as a necromancer class it fits nicely and is incredibly good.


So, RP wise, if you want to play a necromancer who's not a cleric, your only options are pure wizard, wizard(or other arcane spellcasting class)/pale master, Dread Necro or homebrew, unless there are some classes I'm missing?

Wizard/Ur Priest/True Necromancer should be in there for completeness sake. Also, there's the Death Master from Dragon Compendium, which is an odd little class but certainly should be included, and don't forget of course Master Specialists and the Wizard specialization from UA.

JaronK

Giegue
2010-02-04, 09:11 PM
I have an extreme hate for dwarves, so that class is of no interest to me at all. As for the others, I have tried the True Necromancer thing before, and I generally prefer the Ur-Priest route, since I prefer a necromancer who is solely self interested and not a servant to any higher powers. Hence Ur-priest, at least flavor-wise is a perfect fit for how I like my necromancer. As for mechanics you need two ability scores to be quite high, and since it's not easy, your DCs will tend to range from mediocre to downright horrid, though spell foci and stat boosting items can help with that a bit.

And I have never heard of the master specialists, can they specialize in necromancy at all?

Claudius Maximus
2010-02-04, 09:18 PM
Pale Masters also have a neat ability to control any undead creature with HD equal or lower than their CL with no save. That's a very effective weapon against intelligent undead, who frequently don't have HD much higher than your level (and CL boosts can help cover the rest).

Draxar
2010-02-04, 09:20 PM
It's not mindbendingly awesome, but it's not bad. And it's flavourful.

The animate dead SLA does make things a lot cheaper in the long run, and mean you can throw your undead into battle quite gleefully. And it makes you non-dependent upon civilisation – in the post apocalytic Eberron game I'm currently in, my vauge planned 'no these aren't undead, they're constructs' Necromancer was going to have 2 levels of it, so that I could actually animate without starting the game with a crate of opals.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 09:21 PM
Also, I feel like such an idiot now in regards to PrCs for Necromancers. I forgot the tainted scholar class. Learn as many corrupt spells as you can, cast them often, get into tainted scholar and there you go, arcane necromancer with great evil flavor AND functionality, so long as you have enough taint to make it worthwhile. That class also makes necropolitian even more appealing.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 10:16 PM
Yeah, but this is not purely about powergaming, and there are no other PrCs that I know of for wizards/sorcerers that I know of that deal in necromancy. If there are any you know, feel free to tell me, but as far as wizard/sorcerer necro PrCs go, the pale master may be the only one in existence beyond homebrew. So, RP wise, if you want to play a necromancer who's not a cleric, your only options are pure wizard, wizard(or other arcane spellcasting class)/pale master, Dread Necro or homebrew, unless there are some classes I'm missing?

Thematically, none worth speaking of. Mechanically, anything that gives you CL bonuses (archmage, red wizard, virtually every prc from faerun) is technically better than pale master, since a higher CL means more undead controlled and created by you.

You might want to pick up planar touchstone: catalogues of enlightenment for the deathbound domain. Gives you 3x your HD in undead created instead of 2 I think.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 10:30 PM
Domain? I am talking wizards not clerics. How do wizards get domains without using the domain wizard from unearthed arcana? Arcane Disciple? One level dip cheese?

Also, red wizard is a no-no RP wise since red wizards are too closely connected to Thay to be RPed in more general settings. Shadow Adapt looks promising if I homebrew away the worshiping requirement, and I already mentioned Tainted Scholar. Also, archmage is general enough where it could still be a thematic fit for a necromancer, but alas it's only a 5 level PrC.

Optimystik
2010-02-04, 10:34 PM
That's sort of like the "monk's an ok class because you might get locked up in prison" argument. Besides, nost of the time, things that are shooting sneak attacks & critical hits at you aren't going to have a high enough CL to strip you of your buffs.

You know rays and orbs can crit too, right? And getting crit by those can really hurt?


Losing a caster level is quite noticeable, if you are playing from level 1 to 20. Delaying your spell level progression is something you should think long and hard about. If you get to start at a high enough level where you have all the spells you want, sure, it's good. But as a sorcerer, waiting until level 4 to get to second level spells is a bummer. I play a lot of multiclassed casters who have stunted spell progression because it's a very noticeable power check. Having to go through 13.3 encounters without an entire level of spells that I could have had can be frustrating.

So you slow down one level. Big whoop! Sorcerers do it just fine. You're still a tier 1 class, you don't have to be an Incantatrix to be good.

faceroll
2010-02-04, 10:49 PM
Domain? I am talking wizards not clerics. How do wizards get domains without using the domain wizard from unearthed arcana? Arcane Disciple? One level dip cheese?

There's a feat in the Planar Handbook that gives you the benefit of a planar touchstone site. One of the planar touchstone sites gives you the benefits of a domain (not the spells).


Also, red wizard is a no-no RP wise since red wizards are too closely connected to Thay to be RPed in more general settings. Shadow Adapt looks promising if I homebrew away the worshiping requirement, and I already mentioned Tainted Scholar. Also, archmage is general enough where it could still be a thematic fit for a necromancer, but alas it's only a 5 level PrC.

Master Specialist is a full casting ten level prestige class that gives a specialist necromancer immunity to ability damage, ability drain, negative levels, and energy drain, as well as +2 CL to necromancy spells. Pretty solid prc for any wizard that plans on casting a lot out of one school.


You know rays and orbs can crit too, right? And getting crit by those can really hurt?

They have less than a 5% chance of really hurting. Again, a very specific threat for sacrificing a lot of general power.


So you slow down one level. Big whoop! Sorcerers do it just fine. You're still a tier 1 class, you don't have to be an Incantatrix to be good.

I'm just saying there are more efficient ways to be a necromancer, and ironically, none of them involve a necromancy themed prestige class.

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 10:57 PM
Also, red wizard is a no-no RP wise since red wizards are too closely connected to Thay to be RPed in more general settings.

Yeah, but they are easy to strip away the FR fluff and make them some general society of evil wizards.

Also, two more worth mentioning: Master of Shrouds can be made to work for arcane rather than divine spellcasters or work for either.

Yathrinshee is worth noting for being a necromancer PrC that a) really weak and b) very fluff intensive for FR. About the same level or more than for Red Wizard. The class is a bit better if people qualify for it by taking wizard 3/cleric 3/ mystic theurge 2 before going into it, but even with that it still is suboptimal.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 11:01 PM
Yeah, what sourcebook is the master specialist from anyway? Also, master of shrouds skips a caster level too, and it's only level 1 class feature is extra rebuking, so it's a worthless class to make arcane unless you get rid of the rebuking and give it full CL progression.

Leon
2010-02-04, 11:04 PM
Complete Mage

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 11:13 PM
Yeah, what sourcebook is the master specialist from anyway? Also, master of shrouds skips a caster level too, and it's only level 1 class feature is extra rebuking, so it's a worthless class to make arcane unless you get rid of the rebuking and give it full CL progression.

Dread Necromancer's get rebuking. So other than the spell-type they can take it straight off.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 11:22 PM
Yeah, but it still has the same CL progression as a Pale Master, so why take it over Pale Master beyond the summons?

JoshuaZ
2010-02-04, 11:24 PM
Yeah, but it still has the same CL progression as a Pale Master, so why take it over Pale Master beyond the summons?

Good point. And the Pale Master's abilities are in general better. So yeah, you're correct.

Giegue
2010-02-04, 11:32 PM
Yeah. It's too bad there is not that many Necromancy related PrCs. I wish there where more, but I don't think I'm going to get that now that 4E popped into existence.

As for Master Specialist, it seams interesting enough, and it's fitting. It's rather bland and flavorless though, but it works for what it dose.

Akal Saris
2010-02-05, 02:34 AM
Well, Mastrer of Shrouds only advances divine casting without house rules, so it's out as far as straight dread necro's go. As for why take it, it's because the Master of Shrouds is a very strong PrC from 5th-13th level, when its summons are competitive with most encounters. The trick is to enter it at 4th rather than 6th by multi-classing to get a good Will save and enter early - you end up with a very strong summoner. Pale Master pales in comparison. (bah-dum-psssh!)

Personally I think the best arcane necromancer PrC in a published book is the master specialist from C. Mage, since it's east to qualify for, has decent abilities, and you don't lose a CL or school for taking it.

Pale Master is kind of a wash IMO - you get a little, you lose a little. Nothing wrong with that. But when there are better PrCs out there, I wouldn't bother with it personally - I can RP an arcane necromancer just fine without taking that specific PrC. I'd rather get free Animate Dead through Planar Binding outsiders with it as a SLA, personally.

Giegue
2010-02-05, 02:58 PM
Yes, also you don't have to be a cleric to take master of shrouds, archivist/dread necromancer/master of shrouds works fine for a mid level campaign. You take master of shrouds at lv. 4 but you lose 2 Cl. At that level the summons are worth it, though. However, if the campaign is going to go into higher levels, it may sting a bit.