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soulchicken
2010-02-04, 11:02 PM
I'm currently interested in a good rogue build, and I have put together a couple of them using various classes.

I do not have any experience outside of what I have done tonight, and when or if I do play this rogue, he will not be a fully optimized character.

The things I want:

Hide in plain sight
good/great sneak attack damage
effect bow use

I have put together 2 builds, and they use just about any books in print, but no magazines. There is a huge book of feats that our dm has allowed access to, but he does say no to a vast majority (he rightly should, some of the feats are silly)

builds are as follows:

edit: those were pretty crappy formats, meh

format is:
class special ability f/r/w feat taken

deadly edge = +1d6 to sneak attack
imp sneak attack = better dice damage for sneak attack, 1d6 improves to 1d8
deadeye = instead of taking 2 shots, you can take 1 shot and if you hit, its a crit (dm may not like this one)

soulchicken
2010-02-04, 11:04 PM
build 1

bow user

7 rogue
2 shadowdancer
2 fighter
2 ranger

8 feats


dodge
mobility
c reflexes
presice shot
point blank shot
deadeye
imp SA
deadly edge

rogue sneak attack 1d6 trapfinding 0/2/0 dodge,mobility
rogue evasion 0/3/0
fighter 2/3/0 creflexes,pbshot
fighter 3/3/0 imp SA
ranger 1st Fav enemy, track, wild emp 5/5/0
ranger rapid shot 6/6/0 wf longbow
shadowD HIPS 6/8/0
shadowD impE, UD, Darkvision 6/9/0
rogue sneak attack 2d6, trap sense +1 7/9/1 deadeye
rogue imp UD 7/10/1
rogue sneak attack 3d6 7/10/1
rogue trap sense +2 8/11/2 deadlyedge
rogue sneak attack 4d6 8/11/2

plusses over the other build

1st fav enemy
track
wild emp
Rapid shot
+1 Longbow
+1 trapsense
deadeye
range
better saves

soulchicken
2010-02-04, 11:06 PM
second build
melee

5 rogue
1 swordsage
3 swash
2 fighter
2 shadowdancer

8 feats


13 levels

Combat Reflexes
Dodge
Mobility
improved sneak attack
deadly edge x3
shadow blade

rogue sneak attack 1d6 trapfinding 0/2/0 dodge,mobility
rogue evasion 0/3/0
SS Quick to act +1 Disc focus 0/5/2 C reflexes
rogue sneak attack 2d6 trap sense +1 1/5/1
fighter 3/5/1 imp SA
fighter 4/5/1 deadlyedge,shadowB
shadowD hide in plain sight 4/7/1
swash weapon finesse 6/7/1
swash grace + 1 7/7/1 deadly edge
swash insightful strike 7/8/2
rogue uncanny dodge 7/9/2
rogue sneak attack 3d6 7/9/2 deadly edge
shadowD imp UD, imp eva, darkvision 7/10/2

advantages over the other build

1 stance
6 manuvers
+1 reflex
dex to damage
int to damage
+1d8 sneak attack
+1 init
+1 attack shortswords
full round attacks

Dr.Epic
2010-02-04, 11:33 PM
If you want to be able to hide in plain sight take a few levels in ranger. You'd also get better with a bow. Also, as for the bow go Order of the Bow Initiative. You double the sneak attack range with the bow.

TheOOB
2010-02-04, 11:41 PM
Hmm, it's been while since I've played old 3.5, here is my advice, take from it what you wish.

Rogue is kinda a sub par class. The skills are great, but thats about it. Sneak attack is a useful ability, but even at low levels too many foes are immune, and the higher level you get the more foes are immune and the less difficult it is to get immunity. This means that taking rogue more than every few levels in order to max out skills and get a little extra damage here and there is weakening your character. I'd also say the same for shadowdancer. The class offers nearly nothing for combat ability, there are better PrCs out there.

In any case, if your DM allows the Tome of Battle, you should really consider using it. A Swordsage or Swordsage/rogue multiclass keeps much of the feel of the rogue, while getting a lot more power and versitility. Likewise a Beguiler(PHB II), is a magical version of the rogue that is an absolute blast to play.

What you character needs is a few more abilities(from classes or feats) or general combat apitude(from more full BAB classes). Sneak attack is not the be all and end all of damage, a barbarian with power attack can exceed it and they can use it agienst anyone.

Math_Mage
2010-02-05, 12:12 AM
A couple of important data points that are missing:
1. Your BAB. Get all the bonus SA dice you want, but if you can't hit, it's not worth anything.
2. Your attributes, or how you're going to get your attributes.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-05, 01:30 AM
You could always try focusing on factotum (from Dungeonscape) with some ToB dips for some melee power.

You'll get the feel of what you want without having to worry about sneak attack immunities or difficulties in actually getting sneak attacks off in the first place.

I suggest swordsage as a great possibility, especially focusing on Shadow Hand maneuvers (and perhaps some Setting Sun and/or Tiger Claw).

Seffbasilisk
2010-02-05, 02:37 AM
Look into Dark Whispergnomes.

gorfnab
2010-02-05, 03:13 AM
Look into Dark Whispergnomes.
With the feats Magic in the Blood (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_in_the_Blood), or Extra Silence (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Silence), and Silencing Strike (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Silencing_Strike)(the link is a little off, it should say this feat is from Races of Stone) :smallwink:

The Craven (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Craven) feat also nice for sneak attack focused rogues.

How about using a bow at lower levels and then switching to throwing daggers?

Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Rogue
3. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS) - Craven
4. Swash - B: Weapon Finesse
5. Swash
6. Swash - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (Dragon Mag#310) - Vital Aim
8. Fighter - B: Far Shot
9. Swordsage - Shadow Blade, B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Improved Two Weapon Fighting
13. Invisible Blade
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot
19. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
20. Master Thrower

At 20 - 18 BAB, 7d6+20 sneak attack with daggers, can throw 16 daggers per round (palm throw) as ranged touch attacks (weak spot). Damage per dagger without sneak attack is 1d4 +2x(Dex mod) +Int mod. If you can convince your DM to throw in the Hit-and-Run-Tactics Variant (DotU) for fighter on top of the Targeteer variant, go for it.

You can also go with Strongheart Halfling (FGCS) instead of Human and go with the Halfling Rogue Substitution (RotW) for an extra +1d6 damage on ranged sneak attacks.

GolemsVoice
2010-02-05, 03:46 AM
Where are Deadly Edge and Improved Sneak Attack from? Those sound nasty!

Also, get yourself a Rogue's Vest, it adds an additional +1d6 SA, and also grants boni on Hide and Move Silently, if I remember correctly.

soulchicken
2010-02-05, 08:42 AM
Thank you all for your suggestions. I'll look into each of them.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-05, 09:01 AM
I second (third, whatever) the Dark template from Tome of Magic, it gives Hide in plain sight, bonus to hide and move silently (IIRC untyped so they stack with racial and the like) darkvision, superior low-light vision, and cold resistance (meh)

Also for a melee aproach I would suggest a Daring rogue build something like rogue 3/swashbuckler 17 by using the feat daring outlaw your swashbuckler levels stack with your rogue leves for SA and grace (not that important) the big? Swashbuckler got full bab and maybe d8 HD.
get the two-weapon fighting route, max tumble and you are set.

Also for anybuild grab Darkstalker (beat any type of special detecting sense except for tremorsense and mindsight and lets you flank unflakeable creaturew such as a beholder)

The ACF from dungeoscape is also excelent, loose trap sense and gain the ability to deal half SA damage on anything that is immune (undead. constructs, elementals, oozes) when you flank them. this+darkstalker=FUN

soulchicken
2010-02-05, 09:03 AM
Where are Deadly Edge and Improved Sneak Attack from? Those sound nasty!

Also, get yourself a Rogue's Vest, it adds an additional +1d6 SA, and also grants boni on Hide and Move Silently, if I remember correctly.


One of my friends found a PDF book of feats. I don't know who wrote it, but has a ton of feats in it.

soulchicken
2010-02-05, 12:43 PM
A couple of important data points that are missing:
1. Your BAB. Get all the bonus SA dice you want, but if you can't hit, it's not worth anything.
2. Your attributes, or how you're going to get your attributes.

Now that i'm back at my computer, instead of posting on my iPhone, I can give you a bit more data.

BAB with the bow build is 10.
BAB with the melee build is 9.

Our dm lets us roll our stats, and my first roll was a dandy, imo.

18 17 16 15 14 12

Golemsvoice:

The feats book is just called FEATS from www.alderac.com.

I don't think I'll be able to do a dark template; the race is set as human.

Where is the darkstalker class from? I do like the daring outlaw path; I'll play around with that to see how that'll do.

Gorfnab:

Interesting combo, I was wondering how to get ranged weaponry to work with Swordsage. Alas, all that cool stuff in Tome of Battle, and none of it applies to longbow users. Unless I missed stuff. Which I do from time to time. Ok all the time, shut up.

Edit: I forgot about the ranger thing...17 levels ain't a few, lol. I dipped into ranger for the bow build, but going futher than just a dip would put me off the path I wanted.

I know going for SA damage sucks against critical immune monsters, and I'm fine with that. My dm is really good at giving us fights where everyone is useful at one point or another. I know I'll kick arse one fight, and then sit in a corner, in the fetal position the next...I'm cool with that.

I also know that any power attacking, 2'hand user can pump out similiar or better damage than a rogue. But they kinda stick out in a battle field, and I'd rather play the flanking character this time around.

Thanks for all your input.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:33 PM
Dark Whispergnome Thug Fighter 1(Unearthed Arcana)/Spellthief 1 (Complete Arcane)/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 3/Unseen Seer 1/Unarmed Swordsage 1 = ECL 11 (10 with LA buyoff)

Feats:
Daring Outlaw
Shadow Blade
Two Weapon Fighting
Snap Kick

Stances:
Assassin's stance

What it does:
For melee, you get Dex to damage, Int to Damage, and +9d6 SA.

You get 2nd level spells, one of which should be Wraithstrike. Wraithstrike makes your melee attacks touch attacks for one round. This means you can make a lot of attacks with a lot of penalties, and still land some really nasty blows.

Using partial BAB, you have 8 BAB.

Between Whispergnome and the Dark tempate, you can cast silence on yourself, hide in plain sight, and get something like +20 to hide checks, and +10 to move silent checks.

Problems:
Low on skill points for the average rogue.
Rather squishy.
Reliance on precision damage means you can't hurt some monsters.
Lots of attacks means damage reduction makes you far less efficient.
Reliance on targeting touch AC makes hitting certain monsters hard, such as true dragons, small creatures, and dex based builds.