Who is the 'he' in this statement?

[Charmy]

So I was re-reading the comics today, and was looking through #28:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html
when I noticed something interesting.

The key part of dialogue that struck me is:
:haley: "Vaarsuvius checked it out too, naturally."
:roy: "Vaarsuvius?!"
:haley: "I mean sure its awfully skinny, but he uses it so masterfully..."

It dawned on me that it is, at the very least, ambiguous whom Haley is referring to as 'he'.

Now, the first few times I've read this I assumed Haley was referring to "Elan" using that rapier so masterfully. That seems to be what the others assumed in this running joke. But the dialogue would suggest to me that Haley is referring to "V" using it so masterfully. Why?

Haley later goes on to say to Roy:

:haley: "Um, I'm talking about the rapier I looted for Elan from the room you sent me to scout."

This really suggests that Elan hasn't actually used this rapier yet! Haley had just looted it from said room.

So who in fact was 'using it so masterfully'? It seems far more likely to be V, since she says this just after saying V 'checked it out too'.

While Elan may indeed use rapiers 'masterfully', the context doesn't add up. She said 'it', meaning that sword specifically. She would otherwise have said something like "Sure its awfully skinny, but he uses rapiers so masterfully..." (although that would have killed the joke). And even then, she would have probably used his name and not a pronoun, since she had just, in the previous sentence been using V as a subject.

You might argue that V is a wizard and thus wouldn't use weapons 'masterfully', but remember that elves are at least PROFICIENT with rapiers. Bards aren't exactly master swordsmen either. V may be perfectly capable of swinging the weapon around at least in a pleasing-to-look-at way. They are a graceful race after all.

Now, I'm not trying to say this somehow proves that V is a guy. (I'm well aware that characters use whichever pronoun for V based on who they THINK he/she is). What I am saying is that it suggests to me that Haley believes V is a guy.

Since Haley knew V for quite some time before the Order had met up as a whole (and knew he/she was married, shared a room with him/her, etc.) I lend a bit more credence to Haley's belief than others.

If this particular strip has already been brought up before, I apologize. I know just about every strip in the comic has been discussed to death, so I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd be curious to hear other people's thoughts on this.

I also know V's gender is subject to endless debate and this is not proof of anything. But hey, I figure talking about the strip is what the board is for :)

Cheers.

[Kish]

:haley: "Um, I'm talking about the rapier I looted for Elan from the room you sent me to scout."

This really suggests that Elan hasn't actually used this rapier yet! Haley had just looted it from said room.
So wait a minute. Because she just looted it, Elan hadn't had time to use it, but Vaarsuvius had not only checked it out, but done something Haley would call using it? And there, alone in the comic, she uses a pronoun for Vaarsuvius and it passes without comment? I think that's much more of a reach than thinking that she just means Elan uses a rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) masterfully, even though, as a weapon of choice, it's very skinny.

[Snake-Aes]

You're reading it out of context. The core joke around that comic was Elan's streaking schemes, and Roy was particularly worried about the Haley's guild's reaction to that. Knowing this, it had to be about Elan.

[Charmy]

So wait a minute. Because she just looted it, Elan hadn't had time to use it, but Vaarsuvius had not only checked it out, but done something Haley would call using it?

Vaarsuvius had checked it out. We know this because Haley said so. "Check it out" would generally imply unsheathing it and casting Identify on it, at the very least! Its not at all a stretch to imagine Vaarsuvius swung it around a little too.


And there, alone in the comic, she uses a pronoun for Vaarsuvius and it passes without comment?

No one in the strip has specifically commented when someone uses a certain pronoun for V.


You're reading it out of context. The core joke around that comic was Elan's streaking schemes, and Roy was particularly worried about the Haley's guild's reaction to that. Knowing this, it had to be about Elan

I already pointed out that I believe that Roy and Belkar were assuming she was talking about Elan. And I'm aware that it was part of the joke about them believing she was talking about Elan's trouser titan. But that doesn't mean that's what she was actually talking about - in fact the joke relies on her having NOT talked about what they think she was talking about.

[Kish]

And if Vaarsuvius "swung it around a little," that counts as using it masterfully, but Elan can't have done anything with it yet? I'm afraid I detect a bias toward a particular outcome here. :smalltongue:

[Charmy]

And if Vaarsuvius "swung it around a little," that counts as using it masterfully, but Elan can't have done anything with it yet? I'm afraid I detect a bias toward a particular outcome here. :smalltongue:

As I pointed out, Haley is holding a rapier she had just looted from a room. This is fairly conclusive proof that Elan has not used that sword yet, imo.

And I don't think either of them could really be described as 'masterfully' using it, so I wouldn't say that influences the argument in either direction.

[TriForce]

Using so masterfully refers to elan writing the orders name on a wall, and there is no possible way, EVER, IN HELL, haley could even remotly refer to V there. i really hope this is a joke or a troll attempt

[Optimystik]

Haley is referring to Elan's skill with rapiers in general, not with the specific rapier that she found.

It was dodgy wording for the sake of the joke. Haley would have been less ambiguous had she said "they're awfully skinny, but he uses them so masterfully." But the double entendre wouldn't have made sense then.

Besides, what makes you think V uses rapiers "masterfully?" To quote the man himself - "there is a vast gulf between being proficient with a weapon and being good with a weapon." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)

[ZerglingOne]

Shouldn't this thread be locked and/or moved to the V's gender debate thread?

[derfenrirwolv]

The He = Elan

[Conuly]

One thing nobody has mentioned (OotPCs spoiler):

Haley only knew V for about a day before the entire order met up. While this is technically "some time", and they did bond quickly, I don't think it's what you think.

[Liwen]

Any discussion about V's gender being male or female is completely missing the point. Vaarsuvius as long now been officially declared "ungendered" for the purpose of providing Rule of Funny with some eternal foundations. V is neither female of male, simply an elf. Beside, as ZerglingOne mentioned, I believe such threads are no longer tolerated around here, because of the sheer amounts of pointless and done to death arguing on that specific subject that's been going around the forums for OVER 5 YEARS!

Now to address this new theory providing a new clue to the "mystery". No. Simply no. In this context, "he" clearly and unambiguously refers to Elan the Bard, member of the Order of the Stick. There's never been a single shred of doubt about it, well until now.

[factotum]

And even if you DID somehow twist it so that Haley was talking about V--what of it? The Giant has stated that the way the characters refer to V's gender in the comic just indicates their own guess as to what he is, not the reality; and if you look hard enough you'll find plenty of examples of V being referred to as male or female, sometimes even by the same character!

[Optimystik]

One thing nobody has mentioned (OotPCs spoiler):

Haley only knew V for about a day before the entire order met up. While this is technically "some time", and they did bond quickly, I don't think it's what you think.

Where did you get that from? Nothing about their meeting says how long they knew each other, and they were both referring to each other in very familiar fashion, like they do now. ("V" and "Miss Starshine.")

Well, "Miss Starshine" is a touch more formal, but this is V we're talking about.


Beside, as ZerglingOne mentioned, I believe such threads are no longer tolerated around here, because of the sheer amounts of pointless and done to death arguing on that specific subject that's been going around the forums for OVER 5 YEARS!

They'll probably continue until the question is canonically answered... there's no point getting upset over them.

[Conuly]

Where did you get that from? Nothing about their meeting says how long they knew each other, and they were both referring to each other in very familiar fashion, like they do now. ("V" and "Miss Starshine.")

Well, "Miss Starshine" is a touch more formal, but this is V we're talking about.



They'll probably continue until the question is canonically answered... there's no point getting upset over them.

Common sense? Unless you want to write up a scenario where they've actually been writing letters to each other for years and finally met up in person coincidentally only a short time after leaving their homes and an even shorter time before meeting Roy.

[Optimystik]

Common sense? Unless you want to write up a scenario where they've actually been writing letters to each other for years and finally met up in person coincidentally only a short time after leaving their homes and an even shorter time before meeting Roy.

You don't know how long they knew each other before that scene, common sense or not. The most we know is that it was less than 8 months ago (when Haley left Greysky.)

[ThePhantasm]

Preeety sure it was a reference to Elan's sword skills with a rapier in general, not with that particular rapier.

[Charmy]

Alright, so I was the only one who even remotely had this thought. Oh well.

I certainly didn't expect the level of hostility I got from some of the forum posters though :p Sorry if the thread wasn't 100% new and original, but its not like the board is flooded with redundant topics.

Peace.

[Optimystik]

Alright, so I was the only one who even remotely had this thought. Oh well.

I certainly didn't expect the level of hostility I got from some of the forum posters though :p Sorry if the thread wasn't 100% new and original, but its not like the board is flooded with redundant topics.

Peace.

Lack of comic has us all on edge, I'd say :smalltongue:

If I was one of the "hostile" ones, then I apologize - that wasn't my intent.

[Dracoma]

Well,

I definitely agree that the "he" was out of place, and made no sense when backed up with what Haley said afterward. Sure, it made perfect sense in the joke, but the "true" usage was certainly odd. No, I don't believe it indicates anything about V, gender-wise or proficiency-wise. It seemed as though "he" was supposed to be Elan.

Proper usage aside, it made for a nice chuckle first time reading. Rule of Funny trumps all.

[GoC]

And even if you DID somehow twist it so that Haley was talking about V--what of it? The Giant has stated that the way the characters refer to V's gender in the comic just indicates their own guess as to what he is, not the reality; and if you look hard enough you'll find plenty of examples of V being referred to as male or female, sometimes even by the same character!
Stop being so unpleasant. If you'd read the OP instead of just skimming it you'd know that he explicitly says that this is not a solid indicator and that it is indeed Haley's guess!

[AceOfFools]

One thing nobody has mentioned (OotPCs spoiler):

Haley only knew V for about a day before the entire order met up. While this is technically "some time", and they did bond quickly, I don't think it's what you think.

Who's Who of NCfPB:
The "who's who" section of No Cure for the Paladin Blues explicitly states that Haley and V have a pre-existing friendship.

I'm not sure that constitutes a spoiler.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's also implied in DStP commentary that their friendship prior to Roy's recruitment was more than just a few days.

[John Cribati]

And btw, "it" refers to "the rapier," just as if you could say that Elan knows how to play the lute.

[Ranger Mattos]

I'm pretty sure that Haley saying 'he uses it so masterfully,' the 'it' refers to rapiers in general, not that specific rapier.

If this has already been said, I'm sorry, but I didn't bother to look at all the replies. Even though the whole thread is only one page.