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Melamoto
2010-02-05, 12:47 PM
Has anyone considered using VoP to fix the monk? Yes, I am aware that people actually have. But what if it was slightly modified, and the Monk didn't actually need to give up possessions or money? In short, VoP without the P?

The Monk would gain all of the VoP benefits, with the following exceptions:


No Bonus Exalted feats
No AC (Not deflection) bonus
All uses of "Good" are replaced by "Law"
All cases of "Evil" are replaced by "Chaos"


Any you could throw in Full BAB, just as a bonus. What do you think? Would this be balanced, or at least more balanced? Would it be too powerful for a Melee class?

Doc Roc
2010-02-05, 12:49 PM
Tried it, didn't work. Still very very weak, honestly. It turned out that VoP didn't really cover the weakness of the monk very well, even when it was basically free.

Overshee
2010-02-05, 12:50 PM
Has anyone considered using VoP to fix the monk? Yes, I am aware that people actually have. But what if it was slightly modified, and the Monk didn't actually need to give up possessions or money? In short, VoP without the P?

The Monk would gain all of the VoP benefits, with the following exceptions:


No Bonus Exalted feats
No AC (Not deflection) bonus
All uses of "Good" are replaced by "Law"
All cases of "Evil" are replaced by "Chaos"


Any you could throw in Full BAB, just as a bonus. What do you think? Would this be balanced, or at least more balanced? Would it be too powerful for a Melee class?

First off, I think you aren't forgetting that monks can't have nice things. Secondly (and probably more constructively), I think an intrinsic part of the "vow" feats is that there are drawbacks.

Maybe you could refocus it to be based around the monastic vows to uphold law and fight chaos and something?

Melamoto
2010-02-05, 12:59 PM
Tried it, didn't work. Still very very weak, honestly. It turned out that VoP didn't really cover the weakness of the monk very well, even when it was basically free.Really? I was under the impressions that compared to other melee classes, monks mostly suffered from the lack of full BAB, special abilities that were actually useful, and low damage output, most of which VoP addresses, and adds more to. Continuous True Seeing, Freedom of Movement and Nondetection don't make much difference (Not to mention the big bonuses to stats for free)? Am I missing something?


First off, I think you aren't forgetting that monks can't have nice things. Secondly (and probably more constructively), I think an intrinsic part of the "vow" feats is that there are drawbacks.

Maybe you could refocus it to be based around the monastic vows to uphold law and fight chaos and something?
Maybe, but I only intended to use VoP's mechanics, not it's flavour. Monks are already restricted to only Lawful, why add more on that?

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:06 PM
Tried it, didn't work. Still very very weak, honestly. It turned out that VoP didn't really cover the weakness of the monk very well, even when it was basically free.

Weak, as in how weak? What was the PB you played with? Item optimization? Levels? What else was in play? What'd you play against? Did you play straight monk? How'd it compare to a fighter or barbarian or rogue?

Shpadoinkle
2010-02-05, 01:21 PM
Really? I was under the impressions that compared to other melee classes, monks mostly suffered from the lack of full BAB,
That's less important than you may think. It's among the most useful of melee's "advantages," but compared to what casters get... well, let me put it this way. If you were to compare the versatility and usefulness of melee vs. casters, you'd get this (http://www.canyon-news.com/artman2/uploads/2/360559_Hand-Grenade-Posters.jpg) vs. this. (http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/images/atombomb.jpg)


(lack of) special abilities that were actually useful,
This applies to all classes that aren't full casters.


and low damage output,
Beyond a certain point (roughly levels 6 to 8) damage is largely useless unless the casters are disabled in some way. After a while combat petty much hinges on who can inflict the most save-or-die/save-or-suck spells on the other side first.


most of which VoP addresses,
See above for why this doesn't mean anything.

Doc Roc
2010-02-05, 01:24 PM
Weak, as in how weak? What was the PB you played with? Item optimization? Levels? What else was in play? What'd you play against? Did you play straight monk? How'd it compare to a fighter or barbarian or rogue?

I crunched the numbers pretty hard, and ran some SGTs. It blew. You think I wanted to rewrite monk? Even our monk is only high tier three.

Levels 5,10,15
PB 28, 32
Comparison:
War-marked, wizard, PD barbarian

Success level: Died 70% of the time to level appropriate challenges.

War-marked, for comparison, wins 70% of the time in many of the same challenges, which was a little high for our tastes, while a well-prepared wizard wins about 90%.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 01:37 PM
I crunched the numbers pretty hard, and ran some SGTs. It blew. You think I wanted to rewrite monk? Even our monk is only high tier three.

Levels 5,10,15
PB 28, 32
Comparison:
War-marked, wizard, PD barbarian

Success level: Died 70% of the time to level appropriate challenges.

War-marked, for comparison, wins 70% of the time in many of the same challenges, which was a little high for our tastes, while a well-prepared wizard wins about 90%.

Was it running solo?

Doc Roc
2010-02-05, 01:45 PM
:: snaps ::

Yes it was, but it really doesn't matter as much as some people make it out to. Are you familiar with the concept of option cost? Every demand you make on your allies is a thing that they lose. Lose, like gone. In other words, you want to see at least passable solo performance. Monk was dying enough that it was pretty obvious it would be a burden.


Party dynamics are not a magical salve. They only go so far, and everything you take is something that is actually lost.

Indon
2010-02-05, 01:49 PM
Any you could throw in Full BAB, just as a bonus. What do you think? Would this be balanced, or at least more balanced? Would it be too powerful for a Melee class?

With the feats (and something to do with them, there aren't many Exalted feats out there for a straight X class), I'd say you'd be about tier 3.

Without the feats, you're probably a bit stronger than the other core melee classes.

You're not a spellcaster, but don't be too worried.

Edit: Not directly related, but...

Party dynamics are not a magical salve. They only go so far, and everything you take is something that is actually lost

And clearly, this is why bards are weak.

Pharaoh's Fist
2010-02-05, 01:52 PM
And clearly, this is why bards are weak.

Pardon? Bards give buffs, spells, and skills.

Doc Roc
2010-02-05, 01:53 PM
With the feats (and something to do with them, there aren't many Exalted feats out there for a straight X class), I'd say you'd be about tier 3.

Without the feats, you're probably a bit stronger than the other core melee classes.

You're not a spellcaster, but don't be too worried.

Edit: Not directly related, but...


And clearly, this is why bards are weak.


God in sweet heaven, what? What the heck?
What does... why... I....? Why are you quoting me there?

AstralFire
2010-02-05, 02:23 PM
Indon was being sarcastic there. However, his point was poorly made at best.

Simple monk fix:
- BAB to full
- Flurry can be added to Standard Action and Charge attacks.
- Let stunning fist work on everything.
- Grant all four points of class AC at first or second level.
- Skill points up to 6+Int
- Grant them mettle when they get Imp Evasion. (It's Evasion for Fort/Will)
- Switch Stunning Fist to (Level/4) per encounter, rather than Level per day.
- Quivering Palm becomes once a day.
- Abundant step becomes once an encounter and a swift action.
- Get Slow Fall all at once.

Bam.

faceroll
2010-02-05, 02:36 PM
:: snaps ::

Yes it was, but it really doesn't matter as much as some people make it out to. Are you familiar with the concept of option cost? Every demand you make on your allies is a thing that they lose. Lose, like gone. In other words, you want to see at least passable solo performance. Monk was dying enough that it was pretty obvious it would be a burden.


Party dynamics are not a magical salve. They only go so far, and everything you take is something that is actually lost.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, cool your jets. I was just curious. Spellcasters in the games I play in typically have more spells than they know what to do with, so end up prepping a bunch of buff spells that get put on the guys who do damage.

Indon
2010-02-05, 02:39 PM
God in sweet heaven, what? What the heck?
What does... why... I....? Why are you quoting me there?

I was making a point about how soloing does not necessarily correlate to party viability; some classes simply do better when part of the buff equation.

While the Monk only gets disproportionate benefits from some specific buffs, and short outright buff cheese you can't really use buffs to move classes through entire tiers, it's clearly a valid point.

And really, the Monk doesn't need a 'fix'. It's a fine class. It's just mechanically weak, so if you want to play Monks alongside more powerful classes you need to make the monk more powerful. So what people refer to as 'fixing', is actually buffing.

That's why it's so easy to make a Monk 'fix' that works - there are lots of ways to make monks more powerful. The only question is to what precise degree of power you want to buff the Monk.

My recent favorite Monk fix is to give them full Cleric spellcasting, with only thematically appropriate spells (determined through DM eyeballing and/or sufficient player fasttalking). That could easily make the Monk Tier 2.

Runestar
2010-02-05, 07:30 PM
I would still play a swordsage over that any day. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2010-02-05, 08:17 PM
I was making a point about how soloing does not necessarily correlate to party viability; some classes simply do better when part of the buff equation.

While the Monk only gets disproportionate benefits from some specific buffs, and short outright buff cheese you can't really use buffs to move classes through entire tiers, it's clearly a valid point.

And really, the Monk doesn't need a 'fix'. It's a fine class. It's just mechanically weak, so if you want to play Monks alongside more powerful classes you need to make the monk more powerful. So what people refer to as 'fixing', is actually buffing.

No, the Monk needs fixing. Weak but working is Warlock - the basic mechanics function well, the numbers are just low. The Monk has the illusion of many options, but they synchronize very poorly.

Ashiel
2010-02-05, 10:09 PM
My group has made the following monk "fix" and so far it has been working wonderfully in playtests, and is incredibly easy to implement.

We gave standard 3.5 monks psychic warrior manifesting (same PP progression, same power list, same power acquisition). This has done a wonderful job in making the monk far more valuable.

A few benefits:

Ability Affinity - Monks need high wisdom. Psychic warrior manifesting uses wisdom as its prime ability. Higher wisdom grants more power points, and thus allows you more fuel for your powers.
Synergy - A lot psychic warrior powers are self-buffs for AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, and a lot of powers which work well for monks. Powers like grip of iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm) for grappling. Inertial armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) for AC. Catfall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catfall.htm) for recovering from falls or trip attempts. They also have powers that improve melee attack or damage, and a power that allows a full-attack on a charge (flurry of blows anyone?).
Flavor - Psionics is a wonderful system for simulating Ki energy as well. Your monk effectively has a pool of energy (increased by wisdom) that rises with his level, allowing you to preform more and more feats that are beyond typical humans. By picking and choosing different psionic powers, you can end up with monks that use entirely different styles.
Options - You can use psionic powers to emulate increased reflexes, better martial art techniques, sudden bursts of speed, and many more things from the mundane to the clearly supernatural. You can even, with the Expanded Knowledge feat pick up energy attacks which you spend your Ki (PP) to fire energy waves or bursts for damage. This method is infinitely better than the feats in the PHB-II which are supposed to do the same thing.

Kylarra
2010-02-05, 10:11 PM
Tashalatora without requiring 2 feats is great. I think I'll steal that idea for my own games, thanks.