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Rasman
2010-02-05, 04:49 PM
Everyone knows that Wizards are Batman and that pretty much any kind of caster is overpowered compared to nearly all the martial classes, but out and out, which Martial class is the strongest? i.e. if you put them all in a pit and said "fight" who would be last man standing?

Viletta Vadim
2010-02-05, 04:50 PM
The Druid.

Cicciograna
2010-02-05, 04:51 PM
Banning casters, I'd go with the Warblade or the Crusader.

AtwasAwamps
2010-02-05, 04:51 PM
Are we talking base classes? Including prestiges? Any limits, here?

SurlySeraph
2010-02-05, 04:51 PM
It's a tossup between Warblade and Crusader. I prefer Warblade, but Crusader certainly has its merits.

Dienekes
2010-02-05, 05:04 PM
Warblade (Crusader as well, but I prefer Warblades they're less divine magic inspired).

Ignoring ToB for some ungodly reason.

Barbarian maybe.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-05, 05:07 PM
The Druid.

DMM Persist Cleric (using Channel Incarnum, Rebuke Undead, and Turn Dragons to max out uses/day) does this better.





Barring the Big 6, Totemist, Warblade, Crusader, PsiWar.

Saph
2010-02-05, 05:08 PM
"Martial" typically means "non-caster".

It'd be a toss-up between Warblade and Crusader. Though if multiclassing is allowed, a Core Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger mix would have a chance.

Melamoto
2010-02-05, 05:10 PM
Obvious Answer: Hulking Hurler with access to a moon.

Not-so-obvious-answer: Anyone who's damage output is >1000 and who has the highest initiative modifier.

ericgrau
2010-02-05, 05:12 PM
From the player's handbook I'd say barbarian at 1-2 important encounters per day and fighter at 3-4 important encounters per day. A paladin is probably above the fighter at 1, maybe 2 important encounters per day. Ranger is at the bottom regardless, but that's b/c he has skills too and isn't 100% martial. Makes for a good sniper with prep. And the pally heals and has some minor buffs and remove X's of course, plus a mount is ok outdoors. Extra books could change things of course.

JaronK
2010-02-05, 05:21 PM
Given the scenario, one of the stealthers would win. Sure, Barbarians and whatnot can do insane damage, but then they'd be hit by the next enemy (we're all in a pit) and taken out. Meanwhile, the Swordsage can be hanging out on a wall hidden somewhere waiting for everything to sort itself out, then jump in for the kill. And while one could argue that the Rogue or Factotum or Ninja aren't martial classes, the Swordsage certainly is. Wildshape Ranger might have a decent shot too for similar reasons.

JaronK

Rasman
2010-02-05, 05:27 PM
We'll restrict to base classes, but any WotC book is allowed.


Given the scenario, one of the stealthers would win. Sure, Barbarians and whatnot can do insane damage, but then they'd be hit by the next enemy (we're all in a pit) and taken out. Meanwhile, the Swordsage can be hanging out on a wall hidden somewhere waiting for everything to sort itself out, then jump in for the kill. And while one could argue that the Rogue or Factotum or Ninja aren't martial classes, the Swordsage certainly is. Wildshape Ranger might have a decent shot too for similar reasons.

JaronK

for the sake of arguement, we'll say that you can't hide your way out of this, this is an out and out beat down

ericgrau
2010-02-05, 05:28 PM
Given the scenario, one of the stealthers would win...
Well just tossed into a pit there's no where to hind without some crazy Su ability. But yeah... in an intricate forest that isn't merely handwaved and ignored by the DM I'd rather fight with a ranger or another tricky class. But often you're toe-to-toe even in said handwaved forest, which is why I tend to give people flak for playing rangers in not-so-intricate campaigns.

Aldizog
2010-02-05, 05:30 PM
Well, the idea of "put them all in a pit and say 'fight'" doesn't really give you a well-rounded picture of overall strength. In terms of building a character that can defeat other mostly-Medium-sized martial types a pit fight, the fighter probably ranks higher than he does in overall utility, because he can be custom-built for that kind of challenge.

If you were building characters for this pit fight, I think I'd put my money (a very little bit of it) on fighter. I think Crusader would do better than the fighter in a long dungeon crawl; Barbarian would do better in a fight against a tough monster, or against rogues; Ranger against their favored enemies; and Warblade, Crusader, or Paladin against casters. Not too sure about Knight. But the fighter I think has the means to defeat most of them 1-on-1. Elusive Target to negate uberchargers, for example. I'm not too familiar with ToB classes, but I understand that the warblade doesn't really surpass the fighter for sheer power, but more in terms of flexibility and fun, so I'm thinking that fighter-vs-warblade is not a clear-cut win for the warblade.

Rixx
2010-02-05, 05:32 PM
Weeaboo fightan magicians, probably.

JaronK
2010-02-05, 05:32 PM
for the sake of arguement, we'll say that you can't hide your way out of this, this is an out and out beat down

Then it's a total coin toss arena of rocket tag. Many classes can get to the one hit (or at least one round) kill point via Power Attack/Shock Trooper and related abilities, and it doesn't matter much who's better at it as most are sufficient. Crusader's probably got the best shot due to durability (maybe he takes Elusive Target) but even that guy's going down to a decent charge or even a high powered archery volley.

JaronK

SurlySeraph
2010-02-05, 05:41 PM
Barring Uberchargers, Lightning Maces archery, and similar shenanigans, my money's on Crusader. They're less versatile than Warblade and don't have as much sheer damage output as a reasonable charge build using Fighter or Barbarian, but they have tons of staying power. And since they naturally lend themselves to lockdown builds that get lots of AoOs, they could whittle away at their opposition without being hit quite effectively.

Godskook
2010-02-05, 05:49 PM
Assuming that the martial disciplines are restricted to their 'primary' classes, Swordsage has a good shot, due to having an in-class concealment option that starts from L1 iirc.

The question is if this battle royal or duels. In duels, certain classes get a leg up that they wouldn't in battle royal, such as CS Samurai(can lock down single opponents).

lsfreak
2010-02-05, 05:56 PM
for the sake of arguement, we'll say that you can't hide your way out of this, this is an out and out beat down

Yea... the problem comes that by level 10, you can drop well over 500 damage the opening round with most of the front-line meleers (or at the very least, enough to drop any of your opponents). Rocket tag at its finest. Having them fighting it out isn't going to show you much of anything.

In terms of raw damage output, if I'm not mistaken, paladin chargers take the prize. But that's far from a good measurement of 'strongest.' Unlike a wizard, melee pretty much have to be built for one or maybe two styles of fighting. How are you measuring strongest? Most damage? hits taken? hits avoided? control? ability to keep going without support? taking out different kinds of threats? ability damage or combat penalties?

Taking into consideration versatility - which is why wizards are so good - I'd have to go with crusaders or warblades, with psychic warriors and totemists needing mention as well. Crusaders and warblades have the advantage that, like wizards, some idea of what to do is all you need to make them really good. Psywarriors and totemists take a bit more game knowledge to pull off well.

Curmudgeon
2010-02-05, 06:02 PM
We'll restrict to base classes, but any WotC book is allowed.
Then it's Cleric, using the Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant from Unearthed Arcana, plus Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion). Once the character can cast Divine Power they've got the best BAB, with Knowledge Devotion giving them a better chance to hit than any other class. They've also got the best AC (robes with armor bonus, per Magic Item Compendium page 234; plus Magic Vestment to add armor enhancement bonus; plus a Monk's Belt because there's no actual armor involved), and the best resistances (from spells). Add Travel Devotion (powered by undead turn attempts) for the best mobility with full attacks.

Person_Man
2010-02-05, 06:16 PM
Define strongest. Assuming we're excluding Tier 1 and 2 classes, my list is:

Damage Output: Warblade
Defense: Crusader
Aggro: Knight
Versatility: Binder
Balance, mobility: Psychic Warrior, Totemist, Swordsage.

Also, what works best is highly dependent upon books allowed, ECL, and the DM. For example, a Paladin with a dragon Special Mount using Share Spells liberally can probably hold his own against anyone, although I doubt anyone would describe the Paladin as one of the "strongest" classes.

Siegel
2010-02-05, 06:21 PM
The Druid.

That was a really good one

Stompy
2010-02-05, 06:22 PM
Rogue with the Dark Template (EDIT: provided the sun isn't out.)

JaronK
2010-02-05, 06:38 PM
Actually, CW Samurai would have a decent shot in a battle royale. Their AoE fear effect combined with Imperious Command would be great. By level 14, they can take the feat that lets them Coup De Gras as a standard action and they can intimidate as a Move Action, and very few melees will be able to resist the fear effect. They can just move around keeping everything locked down and afraid. Plus, as a CW Samurai it's doubtful most people will target them first... sure the Crusader and Warblade could save more easily against the fear effect, but someone's going to be gunning for them at the start anyway.

Of course, Paladins will be an obvious problem.

And the true winner is the Commoner, because everyone will late until last to target him, giving him enough time to fall over and play dead without anyone paying attention. Then he can get up and charge the winner and kill him. Tada!

JaronK

Rasman
2010-02-05, 06:44 PM
hmm...for Clarification and Simplification

Say all fights end up 1v1, so no royal rumble Ray Mysterio ganking the Big Show going on.

As per strongest, we'll call that "Best Survivability" however you like to interpret that.

Stompy
2010-02-05, 06:51 PM
What races and or templates are allowed? Because if there are no restrictions I'm going Raptoran with possibly the Dark template Rouge :P

Curmudgeon
2010-02-05, 07:08 PM
Rogue with the Dark Template (EDIT: provided the sun isn't out.)
You still need to provide cover/concealment, because this is the weakest version of Hide in Plain Sight in all of D&D.

Shardan
2010-02-05, 07:11 PM
Thats one thing i really never liked about 3rd or 3.5.

Whats the strongest martial classes?

The casters :confused::confused::confused:

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-05, 09:45 PM
I like the God of Smack. (Tashalatora monk/psywar)
Did someone say 1972d8 and the ability to manifest some powers?

Frosty
2010-02-05, 10:26 PM
"Martial" typically means "non-caster".

It'd be a toss-up between Warblade and Crusader. Though if multiclassing is allowed, a Core Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger mix would have a chance.

Remember, Horizan Walker is also Core, so we should throw that into the Barb/Fitah/Ranger mix. Throw in spiked chain and Improved Trip for fun and profit.

Ashiel
2010-02-05, 11:44 PM
My vote is on Barbarian. Even more-so if you could use the Pathfinder version of the barbarian where you get rage per round versus per day, so you have more control over how often and long you rage.

Here's my reasoning.

Fast Movement. A barbarian has a speed advantage. Depending on how far you want to optimize this, the barbarian could easily reach a speed of 50ft per round between levels 1-3 without trouble.
Rage. During the fight the barbarian rages he gets what amounts to a +2/+2 bonus to damage, as well as +2hp/level, and a few other benefits. If wielding a 2 handed weapon, it's actually a +3 bonus to damage. This benefit stacks with other buffs as well. This will give him a fairly significant edge on others of similar strength.
Hit Points. The barbarian ties with the Warblade in hit points, gaining an average of 6.5 per level base. Good barbarians also tend to have decent constitutions to increase their rage durations.
Ability Scores - Barbarians can do fairly well pumping Strength and Constitution, and other things are fairly optional. Wisdom is a good secondary stat if you consider multi-classing into psychic warrior (optional), or Dexterity for more ranged combat support.
Class Features. Barbarians can pickup Uncanny Dodge which prevents being caught flat footed, and eventually flanking. This can help against being the surprise victim of a sneak attack or similar strategy.


At low levels, the barbarian can out-maneuver opponents by literally running away from them and using a sling (1d4+str modifier) to soften melee based units. Due to his higher than average strength modifier, the slingshots can deal more damage than bows and similar weapons. Later on you may wish to capitalize on your speed, and upgrade to a composite longbow (higher strength) and maybe some bracers of archery by mid levels, allowing you to run far away from an opponent then pepper them with high damage arrows. A +1 seeking bow is ideal for piercing evasive abilities.

At higher levels, a barbarian could be wearing boots of striding and springing can improve their jumping skills and have a 50ft or greater movement without trouble. Additionally the barbarian could acquire as his primary weapon, a cursed berserking weapon (which causes him to attack friend & foe alike, but grants bonuses like a Rage, which stacks with his barbarian rage).

As a weapon, I'd advise a glaive, ranseur, or guisarme (pole-arm specific), along with some armor spikes or spiked gauntlet for up-close combat. The reach weapons can also combo well with your enhanced speed.
If you wanted to introduce some cheese, another berserking weapon technically stacks due to the benefit being untyped, which could easily get upwards to a +12 strength and constitution bonus before 10th level and magic buffs, counting your rage.

If multi-classing is allowed, a two level dip into psychic warrior can grant Speed of Thought for an additional +10ft of speed in light armor, Up The Walls (for fun terrain manipulation) or Psicrystal Affinity (for a +2 to initiative, fortitude, or will saves, your choice), and two psionic powers (I'm a fan of force screen for a +4 shield bonus, and catfall to instantly recover from a fall, or burst for another +10ft of speed, but a 2 round expansion isn't bad either for some extra brute force).

For skills I'd advise liberal amounts of climb, jump swim, and intimidate. This is merely so you can take advantage of any sort of terrain, as well as inflict noteworthy penalties on your opponents (-2 to all attacks, saves, and skills on a successful intimidate check), if they leave themselves open for a round to buff or something.

For those wondering about manifesting the psionic powers, you will likely pop any buffs on your turn then go into your rage. I'd recommend against spending too much time buffing though. Pick one for the situation then go for it, and consider using some of your powers before actually raging (especially if your opponent could out-last your rage).

I love Tome of Battle characters, but I do believe this can give them a run for their money. I didn't really specify any feats other than the bonus psionic feats for taking 2 levels of psychic warrior (and then I just listed some suggestions), so you can still play around a bit and customize it to fit a general theme or concept.

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

PS: I intentionally was avoiding anything UMD related because, frankly, I don't feel that mimicing spellcasters proves anything about how awesome you are as a warrior.

Dr.Epic
2010-02-06, 12:22 AM
You're kind of vague: what level, what build, what flaws, what strengths, etc?

Gralamin
2010-02-06, 12:24 AM
Boomerang Barbarians. They are incredibly cheap, and they contribute by doing damage and denying actions. And breaking traps.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-06, 01:04 AM
My vote is on Barbarian. Even more-so if you could use the Pathfinder version of the barbarian where you get rage per round versus per day, so you have more control over how often and long you rage.

I agree with your point (though I find that every Martial class has its own reasoning under how it can work well) mostly. Barbarians are some of the best martial characters around in terms of damage-dealing (which is the key point at melee), and quite probably easy to play characters.

However, I dissent with some of the reasons upon one degree or another. I'll explain where I dissent, why I think it's a good (or not) reason, and something that might be missing.


Here's my reasoning.

Fast Movement. A barbarian has a speed advantage. Depending on how far you want to optimize this, the barbarian could easily reach a speed of 50ft per round between levels 1-3 without trouble.
Rage. During the fight the barbarian rages he gets what amounts to a +2/+2 bonus to damage, as well as +2hp/level, and a few other benefits. If wielding a 2 handed weapon, it's actually a +3 bonus to damage. This benefit stacks with other buffs as well. This will give him a fairly significant edge on others of similar strength.
Hit Points. The barbarian ties with the Warblade in hit points, gaining an average of 6.5 per level base. Good barbarians also tend to have decent constitutions to increase their rage durations.
Ability Scores - Barbarians can do fairly well pumping Strength and Constitution, and other things are fairly optional. Wisdom is a good secondary stat if you consider multi-classing into psychic warrior (optional), or Dexterity for more ranged combat support.
Class Features. Barbarians can pickup Uncanny Dodge which prevents being caught flat footed, and eventually flanking. This can help against being the surprise victim of a sneak attack or similar strategy.


[LIST] I wouldn't consider Fast Movement as a true tactical advantage, aside from being a great equalizer in terms of Dwarves (or small creatures, but that would be somewhat lost upon) and speed. Fast Movement implies a mobile character, which is best suited for Scout. That said, it's great for charges, something that it would be suitable to think of.
This is the main reason: Rage. Rage is perhaps one of the best per day abilities a melee character can have, since it's the definite melee booster. You get a +4 bonus on two scores (which eventually increase to +6 and then to +8) that stacks with most anything else and a bonus to Will saves on certain places for a penalty to AC that never shifts (and that while at first is tough, in the end is quite reasonable). It's meant to be an ability that makes Barbarians shine at the right occasion, and grants them a boost where it really matters: their attack bonuses, damage, and HP.
Another place where I agree. Barbarians have the triple threat of HP: a high Hit Die, a dependence on Constitution (slight but considerable) and a Con booster to top that. Unless the dice are bad on you, you're meant to have more HP than virtually anything. Only the Knight or Warblade near you on HD size (and even then, they don't beat you on Con), and the Totemist makes better use of Con (but they don't have the HD size nor the Con booster).
If anything, what this really shows is that Barbarians are quite SAD on terms of which skill is more important. Since they have a chance to get decent AC and tons of hit points, Dex is not as important. Constitution is very, VERY important but not as much as what I'm going to mention. And the mental scores aren't that important, save for Wisdom and Will saves. So the Barbarian has really ONE score that's far more important than anything else, and that's Strength. Pump a Barbarian with Strength, you're taking him on the right path. Even split of Str and Con is much better, but you can just load a Barbarian with Strength and make him (or her!) a happy camper.
Barbarian has little class features, but noticeable. Fast Movement + Trap Sense = ultimate scout. Even the DR is nice, since you effectively get it for free: I don't have to mention that you can get stuff to increase that slight DR feat-wise. Tireless Rage is just what the doctor ordered, and Indomitable Will is just icing on the cake, but none as important as Rage. Oh, and yes...up to Improved Uncanny Dodge, if you desire.
Something I feel you've missed: no need for complex feat chains. You're a Barbarian, you want the biggest, strongest sword you have and Power Attack. If you wish to pepper it with more effect, Leap Attack. Willing to invest on Improved Bull Rush and Improved Sunder (shudder on the last, but anyhoo...)? Shock Trooper's Heedless Charge and Combat Brute's Momentum Swing. Both are damage multipliers, which is more than necessary. And most of what you need is a minimum investment on feats, which is more than you can say of a Fighter, Paladin, or even Rogue.
Another thing I felt you missed: static damage masters. Only a few classes get to be masters at dealing static damage, or the same amount of damage per attack (compared to the Rogue's Sneak Attack which is dynamic damage). You don't have to worry about the roll; you only have to worry about hitting, and that's it. With such a massive Strength for melee (or get Power Throw and use throwing weapons!), you'll rarely hit even if you pump up Power Attack to insane levels.


At low levels, the barbarian can out-maneuver opponents by literally running away from them and using a sling (1d4+str modifier) to soften melee based units. Due to his higher than average strength modifier, the slingshots can deal more damage than bows and similar weapons. Later on you may wish to capitalize on your speed, and upgrade to a composite longbow (higher strength) and maybe some bracers of archery by mid levels, allowing you to run far away from an opponent then pepper them with high damage arrows. A +1 seeking bow is ideal for piercing evasive abilities.

I feel this uses little the benefits of a Barbarian. It implies hitting from afar, which isn't exactly the place where a Barbarian should be. It also places Dexterity high on the Barbarian's list, which softens his SAD/DAD advantage. Evidently, the biggest offender is composite longbow, since it self-limits.

Now, the best bow for any archer is Energy Bow: that's a given. It's at least a +2 weapon, it's a composite longbow that uses a dynamic Strength modifier, it uses force arrows that deal more damage than a regular composite greatbow, it uses force projectiles (I don't need to mention just how good this is), and it allows you to use Power Shots to boot (like Power Attack but for ranged weapons). Evidently, the Barbarian will probably suffer from not having enough damage multipliers, but if you can ensure a single hit, Power Shot allows you to make a better archer than just about anything on the list.

If you're not planning in the long future to get at least that weapon, keep Barbarians using their Strength modifier where it truly matters; two-hand weapons and Power-Attacking. It's simple, yet effective.


At higher levels, a barbarian could be wearing boots of striding and springing can improve their jumping skills and have a 50ft or greater movement without trouble. Additionally the barbarian could acquire as his primary weapon, a cursed berserking weapon (which causes him to attack friend & foe alike, but grants bonuses like a Rage, which stacks with his barbarian rage).

Boots of Striding and Springing are considered an enhancement bonus, so it never stacks with the Barb's fast movement; rather, it overlaps. Boots of Speed are far better, if more expensive, because you get the benefits of the Haste spell for at least 10 rounds. That's +30 to speed, a +1 reflex bonus to AC, a +1 bonus on Reflex saves, and an extra attack. Ponder on that for a while and absorb it.

I do agree with the Berserker weapon, but by higher levels, what you desire is a way to reduce the opponent's AC so that you can Power Attack (or Power Shot) with liberty. Brilliant Blade, although usually too expensive for its own good, is good at what it does: make melee attacks as touch attacks. Other items, such as a Dust of Disappearance, allow you to become invisible to nearly everything around, so you get them to lose their Dex bonus to AC. Mix the two, and what leaves to defend them are such stuff as deflection bonuses, dodge bonuses, and similar AC boosters. Being that those are few and far in between, you're pretty sure to hit. The rest is provided by Strength, which is a reasonable result.


As a weapon, I'd advise a glaive, ranseur, or guisarme (pole-arm specific), along with some armor spikes or spiked gauntlet for up-close combat. The reach weapons can also combo well with your enhanced speed.
If you wanted to introduce some cheese, another berserking weapon technically stacks due to the benefit being untyped, which could easily get upwards to a +12 strength and constitution bonus before 10th level and magic buffs, counting your rage.

Range weapons are useful for only a few things, one of which is Tripping. Barbarians are wonderful at tripping, but they need a great amount of Dex to pull off the needed routine of Combat Tripping (Combat Reflexes, then Improved Trip; you hit them and leave them prone, which is potentially fatal). Another is to...well, range usually works for trip actually. Reach disarm isn't that hot, and your AoO range isn't exactly brutal, so it's nothing off the other world. Furthermore, their damage leaves something to be desired, which albeit not bad at all (static damage is more important to you), it could be better. Barbarians seek for weapons that have strong critical multipliers, so a greataxe provides both damage and crit multipliers to go. You might want a guisarme (trip + reach + 2d4 damage + slashing + x3 crit multiplier) or even a scythe (no reach, but x4 crit multiplier and piercing/slashing damage) if the idea is not to get a greatsword (2d6, 19-20) or greataxe (1d12, x3) eventually.


If multi-classing is allowed, a two level dip into psychic warrior can grant Speed of Thought for an additional +10ft of speed in light armor, Up The Walls (for fun terrain manipulation) or Psicrystal Affinity (for a +2 to initiative, fortitude, or will saves, your choice), and two psionic powers (I'm a fan of force screen for a +4 shield bonus, and catfall to instantly recover from a fall, or burst for another +10ft of speed, but a 2 round expansion isn't bad either for some extra brute force).

I'd add Totemist to the list. Totemist and Barbarian work monstrously, since you get insane amounts of Con for Totemist, and insane amounts of attacks for Barbarians. You also get Cobalt Rage (which is a wonderful Incarnum feat) and Totem Rager (perhaps one of the best dual-class progressing PrCs, since you get more Essentia, more Rages per day, better Rage, and more soulmelds to couple with that Rage). You end up dealing so much damage, it's not funny; it's worse when you consider that you're using "natural" attacks, which only helps making it worse (for the enemy, never for you). Plus, you get nice freebies such as flying, resistances, even immunities! And all you need is Con, which still gets to benefit a Barbarian nonetheless (since you get more HP, and more of that Rage)


For skills I'd advise liberal amounts of climb, jump swim, and intimidate. This is merely so you can take advantage of any sort of terrain, as well as inflict noteworthy penalties on your opponents (-2 to all attacks, saves, and skills on a successful intimidate check), if they leave themselves open for a round to buff or something.

Skills aren't as important, but you can do a bit more. Listen and Survival are class skills for them: you can make a hearing-based scout, and you can turn into a tracker if you wish to get the Track feat.

The beauty of the Barbarian, skill-wise, is simply the great selection of feats and the high amount of skill points they get. You can drop Int to 10 or even to 8; that's no problem since you won't need too much skills, and you get a respectable 3 or 4 skills completely full nonetheless. Climb isn't as important if you somehow can fly, and neither does Jump; in the case of Jump, your fast movement provides a better benefit that's only beaten by the Monk. Swim is rarely expected, unless your friends don't provide a type of movement and you get underwater a lot, just getting high Str can aid to solve that. Now, Intimidate on the other hand is pretty, but as I've seen somewhere else, the CW Samurai makes better use of Intimidate than anyone else.

Listen, however? Priceless.


I love Tome of Battle characters, but I do believe this can give them a run for their money. I didn't really specify any feats other than the bonus psionic feats for taking 2 levels of psychic warrior (and then I just listed some suggestions), so you can still play around a bit and customize it to fit a general theme or concept.

Food for thought. :smallsmile:

I added the feat selection because it's every bit as important for the Barbarian as it is for any martial class. If you're going to speak of the Fighter, why not speak of the various feat chains?

Granted, the idea was to prove that the Barbarian can work as something else other than the big, raging monster with a guillotine for an axe and moping heads with a charge. However, it *IS* the most effective way to show why a Barbarian is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, martial character there is.

Martial Adepts have their own niche, which is being versatile at the expense of recovery times. Some of their abilities can be done with feats (but you get less feats than you get maneuvers), and they get in trouble with ranged attacks, while martial characters (including but not limited to the humble Barbarian with a large Javelin or Energy Bow) get some more out of it. Indeed, most of the CO community claims that a well-built Barbarian throws even carefully constructed builds such as TWF Warblades with Pouncing Charge, Time Stands Still, Raging Mongoose and Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip out of the water, given how much damage you can deal with a single strike. Not to mention; their skill set is nice, their dependence on one or two ability scores isn't like the Martial Adepts (Warblades need Int, Swordsages need Wis, and Crusaders need Charisma albeit not as much as Paladins do), and they are easier to play even if what you want to do is "Pounce-Power Attack-charges" all the time. Magic items, oddly enough, grant a hint of customization to the Barbarian even if their feats don't grant them.


PS: I intentionally was avoiding anything UMD related because, frankly, I don't feel that mimicing spellcasters proves anything about how awesome you are as a warrior.

UMD doesn't prove how awesome a build is; it proves just how awesome UMD ends up being. No offense to Rogues (they can do far much more with UMD support), but even a Commoner can be awesome with UMD and UMD alone; Experts far more than that.

tyckspoon
2010-02-06, 01:43 AM
their dependence on one or two ability scores isn't like the Martial Adepts (Warblades need Int, Swordsages need Wis, and Crusaders need Charisma albeit not as much as Paladins do),

Nitpick: Martial Adepts do not need these stats. They *benefit* from them, but only the Swordsage comes close to using the stat as a real primary driver. You can make a perfectly functional Int 8 Warblade (Tiger Claw/Stone Dragon/Iron Heart for that Barbarian feel.) It will mean you have a few Warblade features that you are not making use of, but they're not build-defining abilities- the maneuvers still work fine.

Tokiko Mima
2010-02-06, 02:55 AM
I was going to suggest the Lightning Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126747), but that class gives up so much power for flavor, I don't think you could possibly say it's the strongest class. It doesn't have a familiar and can't even specialize! :smallwink:

On a sad note, I think the original thread is gone now. So much hilarity has now passed from the internet and into history... :smallfrown:

oxinabox
2010-02-06, 05:48 AM
Everyone knows that Wizards are Batman
Wrong!
Why does no one appricate the meaning of batman wizard?
Batman wizard hardly kills people, (with he does it's save/die)
He focuses on Save/lose (eg drain strength, greese), to make opponants useless.
then lets the Martial characters take them down.

Batman wizard is next to useless one his own, as he has no killing or even damaging spells til he gets disintergate.
He needs to work as a party member.

Batman wizard is one of hte most effecive ways to play a wizard but not nesc the most.
diplomancers taking advantage of VoPeace can be moire dangerous,
although batman wizards generally arn;t afraid to use diplomancy.

END RANT


Hmm best martial class.
Does Crusaider (white raven / devoted spirt) with leadership feats (==lots of commoners he can turn into an army) count?.

Ranger (or ranged fighter even) could get insta-win with a solar's bow - the most broken item in existance - every solar has a Slayign bow wich applies the Slaying (in stantly kills any target hit, destroys those immune to death effects) effect to every arrow, with slaying autamaitcally cvustomised to refer to the creature type of the target.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-06, 06:07 AM
Wrong!
Why does no one appricate the meaning of batman wizard?
Batman wizard hardly kills people, (with he does it's save/die)
He focuses on Save/lose (eg drain strength, greese), to make opponants useless.
then lets the Martial characters take them down.

Batman wizard is next to useless one his own, as he has no killing or even damaging spells til he gets disintergate.
He needs to work as a party member.

Batman wizard is one of hte most effecive ways to play a wizard but not nesc the most.
diplomancers taking advantage of VoPeace can be moire dangerous,
although batman wizards generally arn;t afraid to use diplomancy.

END RANT


Hmm best martial class.
Does Crusaider (white raven / devoted spirt) with leadership feats (==lots of commoners he can turn into an army) count?.

Ranger (or ranged fighter even) could get insta-win with a solar's bow - the most broken item in existance - every solar has a Slayign bow wich applies the Slaying (in stantly kills any target hit, destroys those immune to death effects) effect to every arrow, with slaying autamaitcally cvustomised to refer to the creature type of the target.

Color Spray + Coup de Grace at low levels.
Charm Monster or (Hold Person + Coup de Grace) at low/mid levels.

Batman Wizards can use SoL's like SoD's. Just have a non-negative str and a heavy pick. Doesn't matter if you're nonproficient. -4 to hit isn't really relevant to CdG's. Let's look at an average heavy pick CdG. Average damage with a 10 str? 14. Average SoD? DC 24.

Batman wizards aren't just buff/debuff. They are, quite simply: Do whatever needs doing. If there's no fighter type, damage needs doing. If there is? then damage doesn't. Either way, a wizard can do it better.

Tehnar
2010-02-06, 07:01 AM
My money is on the fighter if its a pure melee. The feats help him get a lot of defensive options (elusive target) and magic item negating ones (pierce magical concealment) that other classes can't really match. The weapon focus/weapon mastery line gives you the same effect as if you were raging. It would still depend a lot on the dice, but I think the fighter has the advantage.

For ranged, my money is on the warblade (or anyone with Time Stands still).

I think totemists would be on the low end because of the natural weapons they use; can't put brilliant energy on those.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-06, 07:12 AM
My money is on the fighter if its a pure melee. The feats help him get a lot of defensive options (elusive target) and magic item negating ones (pierce magical concealment) that other classes can't really match. The weapon focus/weapon mastery line gives you the same effect as if you were raging. It would still depend a lot on the dice, but I think the fighter has the advantage.

For ranged, my money is on the warblade (or anyone with Time Stands still).

I think totemists would be on the low end because of the natural weapons they use; can't put brilliant energy on those.

Pure Melee? Fighter's nice, don't get me wrong, but Warblade and the like have too much flexibility.

Barbarians get rage, movement (with pounce option), Uncanny dodge, and a smattering of DR, as well as decent skills, and great HD. As far as accomplishing the goal of doling out punishment? Barbarian is at the top of the dogpile, with the ToB classes.

Now, for melee control? I'd go along with fighter. They make the best trippers.

For ranged? PrC's carry the day there. Warblade/Bloodstorm blade is one of the better ranged setups, and is a no frills solid character. Warblade 5/BSB 10 is solid, and exactly in line with how the PrC was meant to work.

For base classes only? I'd go with Initiators for TSS.

Tokiko Mima
2010-02-06, 07:23 AM
I think totemists would be on the low end because of the natural weapons they use; can't put brilliant energy on those.

Why would that be a bad thing? Brilliant Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#brilliantEnergy) is not exactly the most awesome weapon property ever, and it's very expensive. Don't get me wrong, I realize it's fantastic in a campaign against NPC humanoids with armor and/or shields, that I'll grant you. It makes a good companion to Mortalbane.

On the other hand it's utterly useless against any monster that doesn't wear armor or use a shield, because Brilliant Energy doesn't negate natural armor. It's worse than useless on undead and constructs... it can't even hurt them at all. It's kind of like having a stronger version of Bane (people with armor/shields) enhancement, only with no damage bonus, more specific, costs four times as much and it has a crippling weakness to two entire types of enemies.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-06, 07:35 AM
My money is on the fighter if its a pure melee. The feats help him get a lot of defensive options (elusive target) and magic item negating ones (pierce magical concealment) that other classes can't really match. The weapon focus/weapon mastery line gives you the same effect as if you were raging. It would still depend a lot on the dice, but I think the fighter has the advantage.

Fighters could be good if they have the chance of making something worthwhile but that requires too many feats. They end up with 18 feats counting the general and the bonus feats, so you can get upon two or three feat chains and still work something out. However, a Barbarian out-damages them, and a Martial Adept out-maneuvers them.


For ranged, my money is on the warblade (or anyone with Time Stands still).

Wasn't Psychic Warrior the best on archery? Probably wrong, but they do nicely as archers (and better as part of the King of Smack builds, IIRC). Martial Adepts suck as ranged combatants unless they go Bloodstorm Blade, which is meant to enhance throws into lethal weapons. Otherwise, going ranged as a Martial Adept is a potential liability, since maneuvers are pretty melee-intensive.


I think totemists would be on the low end because of the natural weapons they use; can't put brilliant energy on those.

I've seen what a totemist can bring, and it's not pretty. For starters, while most people get mostly Girallon Arms or Manticore Tail, the fact that the Totem chakra is so goshdarned good on most cases means a lot. Second, they get a very good amount of Essentia and soulmelds and chakra binds that it's not funny. The fact that most chakra binds are also really good helps a lot.

In the end, a well-played Totemist can do many things on its own, even fly or swim or climb if truly necessary. Brilliant Energy is the least of their worries, although if they want to, a Necklace of Natural Attacks tends to aid them a lot...

Eldariel
2010-02-06, 07:42 AM
Psy War is pretty far up there simply due to their access to Metamorphosis. Warblade can match 'em in the versatility-department, but beating the raw power of Metamorphosis + Linked Power + Synchronity + Generic Psionics Action Abuse is pretty hard.

Fighter has harder time being versatile since solid Intimidates require Cha, solid AoOs Dex (and sorta Int too), doing anything Str and...being Con. Oh, and Wis for the rest of the shiz. So, a rather severe case of MAD with nothing to show for it. Though getting Dungeoncrasher, Zentharim subs and such is of course swell. Dungeoncrasher has nice raw power, but that's about it. Finesse just ain't in there.


Archery-wise, ToB-classes (particularly Warblade thanks to also having access to Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind and Ranged Weapon Mastery; oh and you can finesse around the recovery mechanic to make it work with ranged attacks by acquiring a non-armbased natural weapon such as Fanged Mask) are pretty damn good, but Arrow Demon Psy War prolly takes it home. Fighter has something going on here too, but runs out of efficient number-enhancing feats too early to win out.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 11:26 AM
It depends so much on your build that I find this exercise difficult to do. Sure, a straight barbarian is a great class. And so is a warblade 20 , getting 2 stances at once with 9th level initiator level is insanely strong.

I can't say I know the psy options very well, but I never liked the power system. And if they qualify as martial then wouldn't a ranger be martial too? But again, a ranger gets spellcasting and that can easily be his strongest ability via Sword of the Arcane Order. But the ranger also gets a full BAB.

Same goes for a Paladin, only you get really good saves too without being MAD (via Serenity). Combine that with Sword of the Arcane Order and Battle Blessing and you get a lot more versatility than any similar build (outside of a real wizard).

And their pets can easily grant them flying abilities , which a Barbarian will never get on his own.

Again I don't know psychic warrior too well, but considering he doesn't get a full BAB I wouldn't give him the martial moniker.

If you don't allow spellcasting at all, then I find the fighter the best investment.

Even 1 or 2 levels in fighter is decent. And your typical fighter should have a better AC than your standard Barbarian by using better armor and shields. The only way a Barbarian can out AC a fighter is usually through a Deepwarden/Fist of the Forest build.

A spiked chain build , using only DEX and shadow blade (through multiclassing or martial feats) only needs Con and Dex (with 13 Int or a class that grants it for free).

The build picks up quickly(weaker than a Barb at level 1, even by 3-4 and superior by 6) and controlling the battlefield with multiple AoO and trips (eventually with mage slayer feats) easily makes him more useful than a straight damage dealer.

A Barb would charge a single foe, kill him, then charge another the next turn. A tripper would place himself to defend his friends and trip anything that comes close to them or rush the wizard.

Different roles makes for different builds. The best tank is usually a Paladin because of his high saves and immunities (which I find more useful than simply lots of HP). The best damage dealer is usually a Barbarian (maybe dungeoncrasher at higher levels). The best battlefield controller is usually a tripper.

And a good multiclassed build can usually do 2 or 3 of these roles.

Optimystik
2010-02-06, 11:46 AM
Again I don't know psychic warrior too well, but considering he doesn't get a full BAB I wouldn't give him the martial moniker.

How WOULD you define "martial" then? Because Divine Mind gets full BAB, and they are total jokes compared to a Psywar.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 11:48 AM
How WOULD you define "martial" then? Because Divine Mind gets full BAB, and they are total jokes compared to a Psywar.

What's a divine mind? Base class, prestige class?

Tehnar
2010-02-06, 11:49 AM
The reason I put fighter on top is I thought this was a 1 on 1 combat arena style. Against monsters and so forth the fighter will be much worse off. That is why I put such a high value on Brilliant Energy. I also considered that no multi or prestige classes will be involved.

Also I consider a psychic warrior more of a caster, not a martial class.

The reason he can do that is he can spring for all the feats needed to counter others offensive comboes. Peirce Magical Concealment deals with most tricks defensive tricks (blinking, displacement et al, 3 feats), Elusive target to negate power attacks (3 feats), Shield Ward for great defense against tripping and other maneuvers (2 feats), Robilar + Combat Reflexes (for more attacks, 2 feats), and the weapon mastery line (to keep up damage with the barbarian, 5 feats). Now all of other classes can have one or two of those, but not all of them.

I'm not saying that the fighter will dominate, but my opinion is that he will have a advantage over others. I am also not denying it is a MAD class.

Optimystik
2010-02-06, 12:51 PM
What's a divine mind? Base class, prestige class?

Base class from CPsi with full BAB and a handful of powers that it gets from mantles like an Ardent. Think of it as a psionic version of a paladin, with a little Diablo paladin thrown in the mix. (Auras that buff everyone nearby.)

Soranar
2010-02-06, 01:29 PM
Base class from CPsi with full BAB and a handful of powers that it gets from mantles like an Ardent. Think of it as a psionic version of a paladin, with a little Diablo paladin thrown in the mix. (Auras that buff everyone nearby.)

Well then it is a martial class. Unless they have less than 1d10 hitpoints.

I guess my description of a martial class would be this: Full BAB with at least 1d10 healthpoints.

Kylarra
2010-02-06, 01:32 PM
I guess my description of a martial class would be this: Full BAB with at least 1d10 healthpoints.
Sucks to be a ranger I guess.

Frosty
2010-02-06, 01:34 PM
Sucks to be a ranger I guess.

Unless it's the Pathfinder ranger, who actually gets neat stuff.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 01:42 PM
Sucks to be a ranger I guess.

Hardly, I would just classify him as more of a skillmonkey/striker than a martial character.

ericgrau
2010-02-06, 01:43 PM
Then it's Cleric, using the Cloistered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) variant from Unearthed Arcana, plus Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion). Once the character can cast Divine Power they've got the best BAB, with Knowledge Devotion giving them a better chance to hit than any other class. They've also got the best AC (robes with armor bonus, per Magic Item Compendium page 234; plus Magic Vestment to add armor enhancement bonus; plus a Monk's Belt because there's no actual armor involved), and the best resistances (from spells). Add Travel Devotion (powered by undead turn attempts) for the best mobility with full attacks.

Divine power is a trap that leaves you a round behind everyone else; you're usually better off attacking instead. Unless you expect a very long fight, but even then the benefit is still reduce by a round. Magic vestment doesn't stack with the boosted robes. Not saying it can't be done with enough tricks, but not these. And then other classes may have tricks too, which makes things confusing.

Kylarra
2010-02-06, 01:49 PM
Hardly, I would just classify him as more of a skillmonkey/striker than a martial character.This confuses me, because what prevents a martial character from being a striker... ?

Optimystik
2010-02-06, 01:58 PM
Well then it is a martial class. Unless they have less than 1d10 hitpoints.

I guess my description of a martial class would be this: Full BAB with at least 1d10 healthpoints.

They are indeed 1d10. But a Psywar can fight them under the table.

They are better than straight Fighter though, so that's something I guess.


Divine power is a trap that leaves you a round behind everyone else; you're usually better off attacking instead. Unless you expect a very long fight, but even then the benefit is still reduce by a round. Magic vestment doesn't stack with the boosted robes. Not saying it can't be done with enough tricks, but not these. And then other classes may have tricks too, which makes things confusing.

Why on earth wouldn't you be persisting DP? Even without Nightsticks it's worth it.

Critical
2010-02-06, 02:05 PM
A clever swordsage, If we're talking straight classes.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 02:17 PM
This confuses me, because what prevents a martial character from being a striker... ?

Alright I guess I need to explain more.

Do you consider a rogue a martial character? Definition of roles is a personal choice so it really doesn't matter in an argument whether we agree or not, just means we don't consider things in the same manner.

To me a martial character is either a tank, a battlefield controller or a DPS (damage per second) build. But most classes do 2 of those things (Barbarian is both a tank and a DPS for example).

To me a rogue is a skillmonkey/striker while a fighter is a martial character.

Strikers differ from normal DPS builds because certain conditions must be met to optimize damage (sneak attack, favored ennemy, etc) , and if their defenses fail they suffer more from it (from lack of HP).So when I have to choose in which section a ranger belongs (being literally on the line between the two) I decided on striker.

A striker is unlikely to use a two-handed melee weapon. He usually goes the TWF route or the ranged route to get more damage out of his bonuses. He also has tricks to go around his lack of might (UMD, abilities, whatever works). He has high offense , useful defenses but gets devastated if they don't work.

The typical martial classes are fighter/barbarian/paladin , the typical striker classes are rogue/ranger/monk

Optimystik
2010-02-06, 02:45 PM
To me a martial character is either a tank, a battlefield controller or a DPS (damage per second) build. But most classes do 2 of those things (Barbarian is both a tank and a DPS for example).

To me a rogue is a skillmonkey/striker while a fighter is a martial character.

Strikers differ from normal DPS builds because certain conditions must be met to optimize damage (sneak attack, favored ennemy, etc) , and if their defenses fail they suffer more from it (from lack of HP).So when I have to choose in which section a ranger belongs (being literally on the line between the two) I decided on striker.

A striker is unlikely to use a two-handed melee weapon. He usually goes the TWF route or the ranged route to get more damage out of his bonuses. He also has tricks to go around his lack of might (UMD, abilities, whatever works). He has high offense , useful defenses but gets devastated if they don't work.

The typical martial classes are fighter/barbarian/paladin , the typical striker classes are rogue/ranger/monk

That's a tricky line to draw. Where would you put a Swashbuckler?

They are d10 HP (martial), full BAB (martial), MWP (martial) meet a condition for bonus damage (striker), light armor (striker), no magic or UMD (martial)...

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-06, 02:59 PM
Base class from CPsi with full BAB and a handful of powers that it gets from mantles like an Ardent. Think of it as a psionic version of a paladin, with a little Diablo paladin thrown in the mix. (Auras that buff everyone nearby.)

Divine Mind sucks. Med BAB, not full. Its strictly inferior to a Paladin.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 03:02 PM
That's a tricky line to draw. Where would you put a Swashbuckler?

They are d10 HP (martial), full BAB (martial), MWP (martial) meet a condition for bonus damage (striker), light armor (striker), no magic or UMD (martial)...

Swashbucklers can still tank and be battlefield controllers (via spiked chain which works with insightful strike as it's a finesse weapon) so they would still be martial. They obviously get a lot out of multiclassing though (Daring outlaw) and like rangers are squarely on the line between the 2 sections.

They can still use a shield without losing anything. They also have higher reflex saves than normal fighters via grace and since insightful strike is a static bonus they can act like a normal DPS without needing to hide to trigger it. You can easily go the twohanded spiked chain route with power attack and leap. Actually works well with acrobatic charge and like a Barbarian you can easily meet the skillpoints requirements.

So yeah, swashbucklers are martial, if weird ones.

Ashiel
2010-02-06, 10:53 PM
I feel this uses little the benefits of a Barbarian. It implies hitting from afar, which isn't exactly the place where a Barbarian should be. It also places Dexterity high on the Barbarian's list, which softens his SAD/DAD advantage. Evidently, the biggest offender is composite longbow, since it self-limits.


A higher speed score can effectively mean the barbarian can run away and "kite" opponents by merely keeping distance from characters like War-blades or Crusaders who are limited to their melee prowess. After "softening" opponents with ranged weaponry, then the barbarian can rage -> charge their opponents for the kill. Their speed increase also gives them significant bonuses to Jump skill checks, which gives them more maneuverability on the battlefield.


Now, the best bow for any archer is Energy Bow: that's a given. It's at least a +2 weapon, it's a composite longbow that uses a dynamic Strength modifier, it uses force arrows that deal more damage than a regular composite greatbow, it uses force projectiles (I don't need to mention just how good this is), and it allows you to use Power Shots to boot (like Power Attack but for ranged weapons). Evidently, the Barbarian will probably suffer from not having enough damage multipliers, but if you can ensure a single hit, Power Shot allows you to make a better archer than just about anything on the list.

Sounds, good. I didn't know anything about this bow though. What's it from?


Boots of Striding and Springing are considered an enhancement bonus, so it never stacks with the Barb's fast movement; rather, it overlaps. Boots of Speed are far better, if more expensive, because you get the benefits of the Haste spell for at least 10 rounds. That's +30 to speed, a +1 reflex bonus to AC, a +1 bonus on Reflex saves, and an extra attack. Ponder on that for a while and absorb it.

Not to be nit-picky but that is incorrect. The +10ft enhancement bonus stacks with the untyped +10ft to movement speed of the barbarian, and the +10ft insight bonus from the optional Speed of Thought (if you wish to take that route). Now, one can also focus on cross classing the Tumble skill. Once you can hit DC 15 reliably, you can effectively move in 30ft bursts without provoking attacks.

In the case of slower creatures such as Dwarves, this can be incredibly cripplying to their ability to effectively melee you. At this point, they must have a good distance game or they can't touch you. By taking advantage of your high BAB as well as solid strength modifier, you can pester them in the low-level game with a sling (since even if you're dealing 1d4+st, that's still pretty sweet). At higher levels, a composite bow could be good, since you will have an easier time shooting it without penalties from distance.


I do agree with the Berserker weapon, but by higher levels, what you desire is a way to reduce the opponent's AC so that you can Power Attack (or Power Shot) with liberty. Brilliant Blade, although usually too expensive for its own good, is good at what it does: make melee attacks as touch attacks. Other items, such as a Dust of Disappearance, allow you to become invisible to nearly everything around, so you get them to lose their Dex bonus to AC. Mix the two, and what leaves to defend them are such stuff as deflection bonuses, dodge bonuses, and similar AC boosters. Being that those are few and far in between, you're pretty sure to hit. The rest is provided by Strength, which is a reasonable result.

I will admit I was equipping the barbarian on an imaginary budget. Also, Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore natural armor, and is useless against undead and constructs, which is a very limiting factor in my opinion. The dust of disappearance is a good idea though, and would be great. A potion of invisibility or similar items could also help, but I was mostly speaking in basic, general terms.


Range weapons are useful for only a few things, one of which is Tripping. Barbarians are wonderful at tripping, but they need a great amount of Dex to pull off the needed routine of Combat Tripping (Combat Reflexes, then Improved Trip; you hit them and leave them prone, which is potentially fatal). Another is to...well, range usually works for trip actually. Reach disarm isn't that hot, and your AoO range isn't exactly brutal, so it's nothing off the other world. Furthermore, their damage leaves something to be desired, which albeit not bad at all (static damage is more important to you), it could be better. Barbarians seek for weapons that have strong critical multipliers, so a greataxe provides both damage and crit multipliers to go. You might want a guisarme (trip + reach + 2d4 damage + slashing + x3 crit multiplier) or even a scythe (no reach, but x4 crit multiplier and piercing/slashing damage) if the idea is not to get a greatsword (2d6, 19-20) or greataxe (1d12, x3) eventually.

Again, a personal opinion only, but I believe you're short-changing the benefits of a reach weapon. The effective reach also makes it more difficult for others to harass you with reach weapons and tripping builds. Reach based disarming is actually very strong since they cannot get a counter attack, and you can likely have a better attack bonus than they (especially during a rage). Furthermore, all the pole-arm reach weapons are two handed and have a x3 critical multiplier, so you may be sacrificing a small bit of dice damage for the other benefits.


I'd add Totemist to the list. Totemist and Barbarian work monstrously, since you get insane amounts of Con for Totemist, and insane amounts of attacks for Barbarians. You also get Cobalt Rage (which is a wonderful Incarnum feat) and Totem Rager (perhaps one of the best dual-class progressing PrCs, since you get more Essentia, more Rages per day, better Rage, and more soulmelds to couple with that Rage). You end up dealing so much damage, it's not funny; it's worse when you consider that you're using "natural" attacks, which only helps making it worse (for the enemy, never for you). Plus, you get nice freebies such as flying, resistances, even immunities! And all you need is Con, which still gets to benefit a Barbarian nonetheless (since you get more HP, and more of that Rage)

I was really just using SRD material, but that being said...
That's a good idea for a dip. I've don't really consider myself an expert of Incarnum (don't got a problem with it, just rarely use it), so I didn't think about it. Good call.


Skills aren't as important, but you can do a bit more. Listen and Survival are class skills for them: you can make a hearing-based scout, and you can turn into a tracker if you wish to get the Track feat.

The beauty of the Barbarian, skill-wise, is simply the great selection of feats and the high amount of skill points they get. You can drop Int to 10 or even to 8; that's no problem since you won't need too much skills, and you get a respectable 3 or 4 skills completely full nonetheless. Climb isn't as important if you somehow can fly, and neither does Jump; in the case of Jump, your fast movement provides a better benefit that's only beaten by the Monk. Swim is rarely expected, unless your friends don't provide a type of movement and you get underwater a lot, just getting high Str can aid to solve that. Now, Intimidate on the other hand is pretty, but as I've seen somewhere else, the CW Samurai makes better use of Intimidate than anyone else.

Listen, however? Priceless.

Agreed that Listen is incredibly good. The other skills however make a barbarian very noticeable in exciting terrain types, and other great RPG styled arenas. The less your playing field is "flat dirt bowl" and more like "epic RPG adventure", the more you'll find these skills will benefit you, even during a PvP experience. Also, this is true in the case of the movement speed as well; where being faster can also mean taking advantage (or denying advantage) gained from terrain.

Either way, I'd still vote Barbarian (though I like mine to be able to do a little more than just gratuitous damage). :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-02-07, 12:07 AM
A higher speed score can effectively mean the barbarian can run away and "kite" opponents by merely keeping distance from characters like War-blades or Crusaders who are limited to their melee prowess. After "softening" opponents with ranged weaponry, then the barbarian can rage -> charge their opponents for the kill. Their speed increase also gives them significant bonuses to Jump skill checks, which gives them more maneuverability on the battlefield.

Barbarian's Rage is actually one of his greatest strengths for archery/ranged combat. Note that thrown weapons might actually do better since you can go Str SAD with them. But back to Rage, Whirling Frenzy gives you a fcking extra attack which just happens to be the kind of damage increase ranged combat sorely needs. So, once you build up enough distance, you can unload with full fury for a round or two before pulling again.


That said, I disagree with the premise. But meh.

Dimers
2010-02-07, 01:07 AM
... by higher levels, what you desire is a way to reduce the opponent's AC so that you can Power Attack (or Power Shot) with liberty. Brilliant Blade, although usually too expensive for its own good, is good at what it does: make melee attacks as touch attacks.

Another vote in favor of the Psychic Warrior, then, or at least in favor of lots of psychic feats. Deep Impact can make a melee into a touch against any creature type, regardless of whether the armor is natural or crafted. Psicrystal Containment lets you do it twice in a row; Psionic Meditation lets you 'recharge' the ability more quickly during an extended battle, in case the first hit or two wasn't enough. Use the hustle power to use Psionic Meditation as a swift action. Heck, you can add the ranged-touch version, Fell Shot, to your longbow-using barbarian, who would benefit from hustle in a more normal way.

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-07, 02:09 AM
Psychic warriors are, indeed, one of the strongest non-tier-1 martial classes in the game. They can do any and everything better than a fighter (with only Zhentarim and Dungeoncrasher ACFs as even minor exceptions), use ranged weaponry and certain tricks (like tripping) better than warblades and crusaders, and have a much larger number of potential tactics than any barbarian you care to name. And they can out-damage all but the most TO-tastic martial builds (see: 1d2 crusader or hulking hurler types), if well-optimized.

Really, the only major stumbling blocks to a psywar are A.) their severely limited stamina issues, B.) the need to take actions to buff (which is easily bypassed), and C.) see A. And even A can be circumvented easily enough if you know a few tricks (not even including pp-recharge techniques).

Psychic warriors really are quite incredible combatants.

However, it depends on exactly the build and setup as to whether they'd be able to win such a competition.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 02:45 AM
WoTc only, I'm assuming Leadership feats are banned.

Paladin 20

Race: Desert Half-Orc
Alignment: Lawful Good

Template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (flight version, in case you fall off the mount)

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 14
DEX 6
CON 20
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 16

Class: Half-Orc substitution level Paladin (you get d12 health and righteous fury instead which works against anything).

Only skill you pump is Ride, your Dragon mount can serve as a detector. You get Run for Free from Half-Orc should you need to catch up with someone before your mount can get you there.

1 Mounted Combat
3 Ride-by Attack
6 Dragon Steed
9 Spirited Charge
12 Battle Blessing
15 Power Attack
18 Divine Might

With the dragon, the swift spellcasting, the high saves and the high HP, I doubt a normal fighter can handle this. Before you get your mount you can always buy a horse but by level 5 you should be able to outdo the Barbarian and paladin spells grant you a lot of things he just can't do.

And even though this Paladin can probably take a psychic warrior, I still think it's not a martial class.

Akal Saris
2010-02-07, 03:16 AM
I'm just happy to see that there's so much difference in opinion over the strongest martial class =)

Personally, I'd put my vote in for the crusader.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-07, 05:26 AM
A higher speed score can effectively mean the barbarian can run away and "kite" opponents by merely keeping distance from characters like War-blades or Crusaders who are limited to their melee prowess. After "softening" opponents with ranged weaponry, then the barbarian can rage -> charge their opponents for the kill. Their speed increase also gives them significant bonuses to Jump skill checks, which gives them more maneuverability on the battlefield.

That would be irrelevant if you get Pounce and ways to maximize your attack bonus or reduce/deny their AC. Fast movement is great for several things, including charging, moving from one side to another of the battlefield faster, and for scouting reasons (to move and search faster, perhaps soften the closer enemies or move faster than the norm and return to the party informing about possible targets. As it sounds, it seems the Barbarian may take benefit from Spring Attack, which by all purposes it's not as effective as it would. Furthermore, you want to concentrate all the heat of meleers within you, even with the apparently low AC, since you can eat the hits better than other classes due to HP overdose. Unless there's someone else that does the tanking better, you want the meleers to be focused on you, and you on killing them as fast as possible.


Sounds, good. I didn't know anything about this bow though. What's it from?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a

It's an article based on a re-release in DVD of the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon series. They have part of the info, and within it, they have the bow that one of the characters used. However, they seemed to have gone a tad overboard with it, and since it's a Web source, it's mostly legal to use if you present it on the table (again, according to the DM).


Not to be nit-picky but that is incorrect. The +10ft enhancement bonus stacks with the untyped +10ft to movement speed of the barbarian, and the +10ft insight bonus from the optional Speed of Thought (if you wish to take that route). Now, one can also focus on cross classing the Tumble skill. Once you can hit DC 15 reliably, you can effectively move in 30ft bursts without provoking attacks.

The general rule is that Fast Movement of any kind is an enhancement bonus. Seemingly I didn't noticed Barbarian's one is untyped, which stacks with enhancement bonuses. However, you would do better with Boots of Speed, since while it is a short burst, it is a far more relevant boost if the idea is hit-and-run tactics.


In the case of slower creatures such as Dwarves, this can be incredibly cripplying to their ability to effectively melee you. At this point, they must have a good distance game or they can't touch you. By taking advantage of your high BAB as well as solid strength modifier, you can pester them in the low-level game with a sling (since even if you're dealing 1d4+st, that's still pretty sweet). At higher levels, a composite bow could be good, since you will have an easier time shooting it without penalties from distance.

Again, your suggestion is either hit-and-run tactics or Spring-Attacking. There is no need to move along and strike if you can down them in one blow, and that's one of the main benefits the Barbarian has: large amounts of static damage. Also, recall that a composite longbow doesn't offer the full benefit of Strength, and implies getting more Dex than you could get, which either cripples your Strength or cripples your Constitution; you have to divide properly on all three so that you don't have less chances of being hit.


I will admit I was equipping the barbarian on an imaginary budget. Also, Brilliant Energy doesn't ignore natural armor, and is useless against undead and constructs, which is a very limiting factor in my opinion. The dust of disappearance is a good idea though, and would be great. A potion of invisibility or similar items could also help, but I was mostly speaking in basic, general terms.

There is no problem with imaginary budget. That has a problem of its own (the Christmas tree and related effects), but it shows what a Barbarian could do to enhance what it seeks. Any damage, be it ranged or melee, is pointless if you can't get to hit.

I'll admit, Brilliant Energy is not the best choice you can get, but it is one of the few choices that offers at least a chance of denying AC. Deep Impact (as someone said later on) is far better since it's an actual touch attack (and so does the Emerald Razor maneuver), but they require some effort that's usually not present with a magic item. The problem lies in the prohibitive cost, since if it were a +1 or even a +2 special ability, it would see much more use. Or if it could deny natural armor, which is what makes it much more prohibitive.

Dust of Disappearance is truly broken, however. It is the rough equivalent of Superior Invisibility, an 8th level spell, and even then you have troubles with usual magic-based finding abilities. It also has a reasonable amount of time, and it is pretty cheap. It is far better than a Potion of Invisibility, actually.

However, even in general terms, anything that helps the melee character to hit is valuable. Every point of STR or BAB, every bonus to attack rolls, and every chance of denying bonuses to AC aid the Barbarian in doing what it should, which is hitting. Even a ranged Barbarian could take benefit of having more chances to land a hit.


Again, a personal opinion only, but I believe you're short-changing the benefits of a reach weapon. The effective reach also makes it more difficult for others to harass you with reach weapons and tripping builds. Reach based disarming is actually very strong since they cannot get a counter attack, and you can likely have a better attack bonus than they (especially during a rage). Furthermore, all the pole-arm reach weapons are two handed and have a x3 critical multiplier, so you may be sacrificing a small bit of dice damage for the other benefits.

Consider that tripping tactics become almost pathetically pointless with your larger amount of Strength. You quite probably have the Strength to resist being tripped, so it's not exactly like you don't want to be tripped since, quite frankly, chances are you can't. Grapple, perhaps, but not trip.

Being harassed with reach weapons shouldn't matter if your damage potential is high enough to bypass any of their benefits. Reach weapons and ranged weapons do have an advantage, though, and one I feel it was only mentioned in passing: flying creatures. I reckon you said the idea was to retain some distance, but reach and ranged weapons work best to deal with flying creatures when you don't have a flying source. That is applying your tactic since you'll be crippled in melee unless the creature and your character are within 10-15 feet of each other and you can deal a hit.

The greataxe perhaps may not seem as a big thing, but it does take much more advantage of critical hits than, say, any reach weapon. 1d12 may not seem much, but consider that in average that's 6.5 points of damage; times three, that's about 19 or 20 points of damage on a single blow. A scythe, as I mentioned as well, has the benefit of a decent amount of damage (2d4) but a massive crit multiplier (x4); that's also about 20 points of damage on average with a confirmed critical hit. The greatsword is less effective, but it has a slightly larger critical range, which means a larger percentage of actually threatening a critical hit, which in term means slightly more damage; make it keen, and things really start flying. A greatsword's damage on a critical is roughly 14 + the multiplied Strength (though let's leave it on 14 as we've done with everything else) and with a slightly higher chance to actually deal this damage instead of the 7 average damage.

The problem with reach is that, once you're in range, you're mostly forced to move back and full attack in order to get the reach benefits, while you're still making the other guy move and make its full attack. Reach weapons have an advantage if, say, you have a creature that can make a 5 ft. step instead of an Attack of Opportunity or as an immediate action; however, the chances to find one are low. Armor spikes are good, but someone that's capable of locking you down will make you attack with the spikes instead of the reach weapon, which severely limits your damage potential.

I don't say it's not a good or bad idea; if you wish for a reach weapon, it's your choice. I'm stating that, in terms of raw damage, the greatsword and greataxe are the preferred choices, with a close second for scythe and perhaps the guisarme in case you wish to trip.


I was really just using SRD material, but that being said...
That's a good idea for a dip. I've don't really consider myself an expert of Incarnum (don't got a problem with it, just rarely use it), so I didn't think about it. Good call.

I don't usually look at Incarnum either, but I've had my experiences. It's a system that's a tad hard to understand, but slow to admire. It is pretty once you see it in play.


Agreed that Listen is incredibly good. The other skills however make a barbarian very noticeable in exciting terrain types, and other great RPG styled arenas. The less your playing field is "flat dirt bowl" and more like "epic RPG adventure", the more you'll find these skills will benefit you, even during a PvP experience. Also, this is true in the case of the movement speed as well; where being faster can also mean taking advantage (or denying advantage) gained from terrain.

Again, that is after a while. Later, you'll probably seek a flight method, and Climb and Jump become roughly pointless (until you get on an AMF, but then that's going from "epic RPG adventure" and exciting terrain types to "the DM hates you" and arbitrary terrain types). A good DM will allow you to have chances of using Climb, Jump and Swim, but it won't be usual. Intimidate and Listen are much more practical in that regard.

Still, I think some fixing has to be done. I meant feats when I tried to say skills; as in, a Barbarian has a great selection of skills since all of them (except probably Craft) are very useful. That I presume we agree with, but I was placing more weight on the practical skills than on the movement skills, and in that case, Intimidate and Listen are much more practical in combat (and in the case of Listen, outside of combat) than Climb, Jump and Swim in the majority of cases. Survival is also practical, but it becomes much more with Track. Being able to survive with food and water is almost infinitely more practical, even though having the movement skills may become a tad more practical around the wilderness.


Either way, I'd still vote Barbarian (though I like mine to be able to do a little more than just gratuitous damage). :smalltongue:

Never said that I wouldn't, though quite honestly it ain't my favorite class; I have stated it before, and I find my favorite class (though not the strongest, mind you) is the Paladin. However, I do find the Barbarian works astonishingly well as a damage dealer, and I find that any builds that don't work with that philosophy are causing damage to the character. I don't say you can't do anything else but damage; on several points, I do state that they work excellently as scouts (fast movement, trap sense, damage reduction, Listen, Survival), but in the end, you do want him to deal as much damage as possible. Being a massive damage dealer is not incompatible with your tactics (you can invest on Power Attack, Imp. Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Brutal Throw and Power Throw and execute the same tactics while taking your distance and using throwing weapons), nor with any quirks that the Barbarian may get aside from full archery (and even then, as Eldariel suggested, a Barbarian with some changes can make one heck of an archer). But you'll find yourself more liked if you can live up to your damage potential instead of doing cheap damage in hopes to weaken it, while you can have someone else that can out-damage you and make you look somewhat wrong.

Certainly, it depends on the gaming group though. Someone that deals a lot of damage but focuses exclusively on combat won't work well with an exploring group, and a barbarian with hit-and-run tactics won't be good on a kick-to-the-door gaming type. Even then, the Barbarian can play each of the roles without much problem, contrary to, say, Fighter or Paladin who have troubles doing something other than fighting (and Fighter more than Paladin, since at least the Paladin can heal, be the face of the group and cast limited spells)


Another vote in favor of the Psychic Warrior, then, or at least in favor of lots of psychic feats. Deep Impact can make a melee into a touch against any creature type, regardless of whether the armor is natural or crafted. Psicrystal Containment lets you do it twice in a row; Psionic Meditation lets you 'recharge' the ability more quickly during an extended battle, in case the first hit or two wasn't enough. Use the hustle power to use Psionic Meditation as a swift action. Heck, you can add the ranged-touch version, Fell Shot, to your longbow-using barbarian, who would benefit from hustle in a more normal way.

Fell Shot + Multishot. Get some way to deal more damage with those. Hide, or better; get invisible. That's almost sadistic.

Then again, you can go Fell Shot + Manticore Belt + Dragonfire Inspiration+ Invisibility. I still have memories of when I had to suffer one of those strikes, and it didn't even had Fell Shot!. If you have questions about it, just ask Olo Demonsbane.

AstralFire
2010-02-07, 09:02 AM
It really bothers me that a class with 6th level powers and full manifester level is getting bandied about as a Martial class. I mean... yeah, it's very effective in a beatdown, but that feels like missing the point. :P

Also, Soranar, I think d6 is a more logical cutoff point for 'martial.' Monks, Swordsages, Rangers, Duskblades, Marshals among others all receive d8s and they're definitely all meant to be frontliners. The fact that some of them can -also- hide if necessary doesn't change things.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 11:27 AM
It really bothers me that a class with 6th level powers and full manifester level is getting bandied about as a Martial class. I mean... yeah, it's very effective in a beatdown, but that feels like missing the point. :P

Also, Soranar, I think d6 is a more logical cutoff point for 'martial.' Monks, Swordsages, Rangers, Duskblades, Marshals among others all receive d8s and they're definitely all meant to be frontliners. The fact that some of them can -also- hide if necessary doesn't change things.

I'm mostly looking at what the character does. Like I said before I find 3 roles for martial characters, most should fill 2.

Monk: Cannot tank well, cannot control the battlefield well, they can deal damage though.

You can try to build them that way, but they really don't shine in those roles.

Much like ranger and rogues, I'd class them as strikers/scouts. If their defenses fail, they die quickly.

Swordsages are basically a hybrid from monk and rogue.

Marshals are basically bards with less spellcasting, more buffing and martial abilities. Much like rangers I'd put them squarely on the line between the two sections.

They're not meant to shine on their own but as group support characters. You can't tank well with them but you might be able to control the battlefield as your buffing requires no feats. But you're no damage dealer.

Duskblades are like rangers, they don't buff but they do deal some damage I guess. They get no combat oriented feat though, everything is arcane oriented. And the more I read the class the more I wonder what they're supposed to be good at or which role they fulfill.

Ashiel
2010-02-07, 12:28 PM
It really bothers me that a class with 6th level powers and full manifester level is getting bandied about as a Martial class. I mean... yeah, it's very effective in a beatdown, but that feels like missing the point. :P

I've never considered a psychic warrior anything except a martial class. They're compared to fighters in the book, they receive full martial weapon proficiencies, and armor proficiencies, and shield proficiencies, and are pretty much martial characters in their execution. The only major difference is how they get that martial aptitude, which comes in the form of multiple self-only buffs and the ability to synergize their abilities together.

They buff themselves to improve their power, which can push them a bit above the norm for martial characters (but if debuffed or dispelled, they are a bit below), and they can run out of their power points (to my knowledge the trick that allows regeneration of power points requires rules out of the incredibly bad Complete Psionic, and even I consider it cheating - and I'm slow to ban anything).

As Lycanthromancer has pointed out, the psychic warrior gains methods for buffing without loosing chances to act, or has ways to recover from a "special move" quickly. All of these methods however require expenditure of something (focus, move actions, more focus, more move actions, and lots of PP). As wonderful as psionics are, and as much as I love them, I feel compelled to point out that it's not entirely as easy as Lycanthromancer suggests to OP everyone.


I don't say it's not a good or bad idea; if you wish for a reach weapon, it's your choice. I'm stating that, in terms of raw damage, the greatsword and greataxe are the preferred choices, with a close second for scythe and perhaps the guisarme in case you wish to trip.

It's also worth noting that the damage multiplier, as I said before, for reach weapons (IE - polearms) is x3 just like the great-axe. The difference in damage is 5.5 (glaive) versus 6.5 on average (greataxe), which means on a critical you're looking at about 3 points of average damage difference. As noted before in your post, a barbarian's strength comes from raw static damage. The 1-3 points average on a successful hit or critical is rather redundant when you have +15-45 damage being tacked on the end of that.

I was discussing it with my 11yo little brother just now, and I asked him a hypothetical question about this. His response was simple. "Control is better. Screw the extra damage. Barbarians deal enough damage already.". He further added that being able to attack people for walking within 10ft (2 squares) of him was definitely worth 1-3 points of damage. I enjoy bouncing ideas off of him, since it lets me make sure I'm thinking logically.

As to tripping, grappling, disarming, and even lowering an opponent's armor class, barbarians sort of do these things automatically. Their incredibly high strength scores do all of these things without people realizing it. Let me give some examples:


Strength - Every 2 points of strength adds +1 to attack, +1 to damage, +1.5 for 2 handed damage, +1 to disarm, +1 to grapple, +1 to trip.
Rage - Rage grants +4 strength and +4 constitution and +2 to will saves at base level. Eventually it can grant +6/+6/+3, and +8/+8/+4. You can probably get more power by taking some levels in Frenzied Berserker (a barbarian friendly prestige class), especially if you plan to arm yourself with an arsenal of berserking weapons. However, I'm not going that far with this (just felt it warranted an honorable mention).
Berserking Weapons - A berserking weapon grants an untyped +4 strength, +4 con, and +2 will saves, and drawbacks of a barbarian rage, but requires you to kill everything within 30ft of you. We're going to assume only one berserking weapon in spirit of sportsmanship, though multiple berserking weapons can technically stack (meaning a berserking 2 hander + berserking armor spikes + berserking gauntlets could equate to +16 strength, +16 con, +6 will saves).
Magic Buffs - A number of low-level magic spells (read: potions) can benefit barbarians greatly.

Enlarge self makes you stronger, larger (+4 on most combat maneuvers), and enhances your reach (suddenly your 2 square reach with your glaive becomes a 4 square reach), at the cost of a -1 AC (you're a barbarian, you don't care), and -1 to attack rolls due to size (balanced by the +1 gained for higher strength scores). It also increase the damage dice of your weaponry, so 1d10 becomes 2d8, and a 1d8 composite longbow because 2d6 damage.
Rage is another good spell for a barbarian, though it has a short duration (1 round/level), but grants a +2 morale bonus to Strengh, Constitution, and +1 morale to Will saves.
Mirror Image is another incredibly good spell since it can easily offset your incredibly low armor class by merely forcing opponents to outright miss you. Combos incredibly well with a lesser cloak of displacement (granting you and your images a further 20% miss chance).

There are others worth noting, such as a potion of Alter Self into a troglodyte for a +6 natural armor bonus, or other creatures for temporary flying, swimming; but we get the idea.
Enhancement Bonuses - At low levels a +1 strength boosting item is a good find or buy (1000gp), and you'll want to upgrade it to a +6 by 20th level. You may also wish to do the same for your constitution if you find you have a little excess money or an item crafting friend (such as a wizard or artificer).
Inherent Bonuses - At higher levels, you will want to get a +5 inherent bonus to your strength and constitution scores. There are several ways to do this. The most common would be through manuals and wish spells cast by wizards or genies.
Weapons - Eventually you'll want your berserking weapons enchanted with a few special abilities. I'd recommend ghost touch (to avoid incorporeal miss chances), and several bane abilities (undead-bane, construct-bane are good ones), and maybe throwing and returning and seeking (guess why :smallcool:). That's still only about +5-6 worth of enhancements (counting the +1 or +2 for the base weapon) leaving you with some more options. Merciful is another good one (+2d6 nonlethal, just 'cause).

Alternatively, the Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) that was pointed out would make for an incredibly awesome weapon in the hands of this high strength barbarian. It grants the benefits of a bow (IE - range) with force damage (ignores DR and incorporeal defenses), scales with your strength, and deals more damage, and doesn't even need ammunition. This is the PERFECT weapon for a barbarian who wishes to kite his enemies to their doom. It's even worth the barbarian picking up some ranged feats (IE - rapid shot, precise shot, far shot), though that's a pretty heavy feat investment.


The barbarian's strength can be pushed so high with so few drawbacks the barbarian doesn't already have, that he can meet or exceed that of those who are "specialized" in tripping, disarming, damage dealing, and possibly even ranged combat. By simply attaining str 41 without magical buffs, and assuming only greater rage, and a single berserking weapon. Also being able to reach up to 55 or higher, with a few low-level buffs, as well as having having a very powerful reach.

Assuming only a 41 strength (15 base + 5 level + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement + 6 rage + 4 weapon), that grants the barbarian a +15 bonus to attacks. Added with a +19-20 base attack, leaves the barbarian with an attack bonus of +34-35 before factoring in weapon bonuses, and granting a +23 on strength based weapon damage rolls.

Assuming you (as some will see it as cheesy) push it into the 55 range, you're actually looking at a +41-42 attack bonus, and +33 to damage with your primary weapons before special benefits such as weapon enhancement or bonus damage. That is nothing to sneeze at.

Your will also be very strong against anything that attacks your fortitude or will saving throws. You are sadly very dangerous to party members as well (due to berserking), but your party and you should setup strategies to minimize the drawbacks and protect themselves (my party used resilient sphere to merely prevent the barbarian from touching the party while she was busy slaughtering everything around her.

AstralFire
2010-02-07, 01:05 PM
I'm mostly looking at what the character does. Like I said before I find 3 roles for martial characters, most should fill 2.

Monk: Cannot tank well, cannot control the battlefield well, they can deal damage though.

Monks are better designed to tank and control the battlefield than to damage. They just fail at -everything-. But given a single-class monk in a campaign of mostly or all humanoids, they're relatively better at those things than just hurting things.


Swordsages are basically a hybrid from monk and rogue.

I've made Swordsage party tanks. Pump con, dip a level or two of Fighter for a shield, you're in business. Their disciplines offer a lot of frontline control options, which is essential to being a tank.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 01:40 PM
Monks are better designed to tank and control the battlefield than to damage. They just fail at -everything-. But given a single-class monk in a campaign of mostly or all humanoids, they're relatively better at those things than just hurting things.



I've made Swordsage party tanks. Pump con, dip a level or two of Fighter for a shield, you're in business. Their disciplines offer a lot of frontline control options, which is essential to being a tank.

So you basically gave up the swordsage abilities (Wis to AC) and made it into a fighter. Sure you can build something without using much of it's abilities (like playing a monk in armor by dipping into fighter) but you're not optimizing. If you were you'd play a warblade for better HD and better synergy. The only difference is which maneuvers/stances you're getting and your recovery system.

And I thought the point was not to multiclass.

PallElendro
2010-02-07, 01:41 PM
I'd say Warden. They can shape change!

lsfreak
2010-02-07, 01:43 PM
Swordsages are basically a hybrid from monk and rogue.
Eh. They make better tanks than a lot of things, except for a chain tripper. Decent hit points, fairly easy time hitting enemies, plenty of things to keep enemies from hitting anyone else, enough damage to keep them threatening, and some really solid built-in defenses. Hell of a lot better tank than a charger-barbarian or paladin, for example, who are solidly in the 'striker' category, despite what their d10/d12 hit dice say.


Duskblades are like rangers, they don't buff but they do deal some damage I guess. They get no combat oriented feat though, everything is arcane oriented. And the more I read the class the more I wonder what they're supposed to be good at or which role they fulfill.
They're solidly strikers or tanks, depending on how you build them. Probably both, thanks to how good spiked chains are for them, and if not that guisarmes. Arcane channeled Shocking Grasp and Vampiric Touch combined with the ability to trip everything in range makes them better chain-trippers than most other trip builds.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 01:47 PM
Barbarians have 2 weaknesses which are shared by many , if not all , martial types.

They have trouble reaching their ennemies. (Grease, fly, etc)

They have low Will and Reflex saves. And no matter how high your STR and damage is, that won't change. Steadfast determination helps somewhat, especially while raging, but it's still a big problem. Eventually you gain magic items that can fix that problem though.

A Paladin's mount (especially the dragons), on the other hand, can do just about everything a Barbarian does, and it also has a Paladin on top of it.

lsfreak
2010-02-07, 01:59 PM
-snip-

If you were responding to me, I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm trying to clarify that charging barbarians are no more tanks than rogues are. They have none of the things they need to tank. Swordsages do, or at least can (though of course they could also be built for a different role).

Likewise, duskblades, despite their magic and that their bonus feats aren't martial-oriented, make solid tanks (and, while doing it, also deal more damage than many other tanks).

Soranar
2010-02-07, 02:12 PM
If you were responding to me, I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm trying to clarify that charging barbarians are no more tanks than rogues are. They have none of the things they need to tank. Swordsages do, or at least can (though of course they could also be built for a different role).

Likewise, duskblades, despite their magic and that their bonus feats aren't martial-oriented, make solid tanks (and, while doing it, also deal more damage than many other tanks).

No I was responding to Ashiel who seems to worship Barbarians.

I agree that many non martial classes can fulfill those roles as well , even be better at them (a druid's pet for example is basically a Barbarian+ you get a full divine spellcaster).

But I maintain that a Duskblade is not a martial class, which was my point.

Considering what they bring to the group, I find Barbarians subpar: simply dealing damage is never as good as having more options. Being Strength focused means you can't be focused on AoO , so unlike a chain tripper you can either decide to trip a single opponent , bash him or shoot something else.

The strength of the Paladin is the versatility he gets from his mount, his spellcasting and his saves (which was probably not the intent of the class).

Samb
2010-02-07, 02:26 PM
In a 1v1 fight a psywar is hands down the best, but a free for all? I would say they are at a big disadvantage unless they are going king of smack.

Psywars have a pathetic reserve of PP. They might be able to buff up enough to kill one or two other combatants but squeezing in another two would be near impossible IMHO. After linked power, schism, buffs, hustle, metamorphosis and PLC a psywar has gone a good portion of his PP pool. I don't see them having enough endurance to win when everyone is targeting him. An astral construct might go a long way for psywar in a FFA but even that only lasts 1/ML.

In a free for all I'd say crusader to have the best chance. Great recovery mechanics, delaying damage and a way to attack and heal (at the same time) gives it endurance out the wazoo.

Thrawn183
2010-02-07, 02:27 PM
I'd have to go with Warblade or Crusader. The Warblade can be built to be so adaptable while still effective. The Crusader has absurd toughness and with the ability to heal itself, can do endurance better than just about anything else.

They're the 2 classes I would pick if I knew I needed a martial class that was going to get thrown into a heck of a lot of trouble and I had no idea what was ahead of time.

lsfreak
2010-02-07, 02:31 PM
But I maintain that a Duskblade is not a martial class, which was my point.
You're going to have a hard time convincing me one class that revels in melee combat, wears heavy armor, and activates special abilities every round or two is martial (warblade, paladin), and another class that revels in melee combat, wears heavy armor, and activates special abilities every round or two isn't (duskbade).

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-07, 02:34 PM
Indeed, Crusaders are the energizer bunny - they just keep going and going. They don't do that much damage though... unless you grab a 1d2 weapon.:smallbiggrin:

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-07, 05:21 PM
WoTc only, I'm assuming Leadership feats are banned.

Paladin 20

Race: Desert Half-Orc
Alignment: Lawful Good

Template: Dragonborn of Bahamut (flight version, in case you fall off the mount)

STATS (32 pts buy)
STR 14
DEX 6
CON 20
INT 6
WIS 14
CHA 16

Class: Half-Orc substitution level Paladin (you get d12 health and righteous fury instead which works against anything).

Only skill you pump is Ride, your Dragon mount can serve as a detector. You get Run for Free from Half-Orc should you need to catch up with someone before your mount can get you there.

1 Mounted Combat
3 Ride-by Attack
6 Dragon Steed
9 Spirited Charge
12 Battle Blessing
15 Power Attack
18 Divine Might

With the dragon, the swift spellcasting, the high saves and the high HP, I doubt a normal fighter can handle this. Before you get your mount you can always buy a horse but by level 5 you should be able to outdo the Barbarian and paladin spells grant you a lot of things he just can't do.

And even though this Paladin can probably take a psychic warrior, I still think it's not a martial class.A psychic warrior can very well take the above build without much to-do. With easy access to crafting and metamorphosis (and psychic reformation to fill the crafting feat slots with more battle-worthy feats), as well as having nearly as many feats as the fighter, more options on how to spend those feats, abilities beyond just feats (so he can branch out and be more or less focused on any given fighter-type tactic), some of the best self-buffs in the entire game, AND access to psionics' awesome manipulation of action economy, I'd say a decent build could easily contend with the paladin/dragon combo.

Take into consideration the fact that crafting can double (or even triple) Wealth By Level, with no real loss of levels (as you can ride the XP gravy-train to quickly catch back up), so I can have about 2-3x your wealth, while only being maybe half a level behind.

Take, for instance, haste (or the speed property) + either a force bow or a bow of the wintermoon + Manyshot + Fell Shot + strength of my enemy + a high Dex/high Str form to make 5 touch-attacks against a foe, each dealing 1 point of Str damage (and transferring it to the psywar's Str score). It's somewhat feat-intensive, but it makes for a darned good psywar archer. Even better if you're an outsider, and use metamorphosis to turn into an arrow demon.

Use that same metamorphosis to turn your Psicrystal Affinity feat into a 7-headed hydra (from a crafted psychoactive skin of proteus, which retains its psicrystal special abilities, including extra natural armor, extrasensory perception, and the ability to fly), which can then make 7 attacks as a single standard action. You can share your strength of my enemy with it so it can bite a target and further drain Strength (while making it even stronger than a Huge 7-headed hydra would be). Better yet if I use the RAW feats the psicrystal gets to nab some tentacles from the Illithid Grapple feat (from CPsi) to grab up to 4 extra attacks...and quite possibly Flyby Attack, as well.

Once I've done all the Str-draining I care to do, I can shift into Charging Mode, which, since I can take Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge, allows me to use my psionic lion's charge to get a full-attack on a charge, basically every round (and since I am, at this point, probably an arrow demon, this lets me dual-wield two lances two-handed, and I can have an extra dancing lance of speed and an animated shield), which gives me a whole BUNCH of attacks, each of which are either at x3 damage (for the lances) or x2 (for everything else). I could fit in Power Attack, Leap Attack, and possibly Shock Trooper for even more insanity. Higher Str forms drive the point home just that much harder.

And since I still have a number of feats left over (and almost my entire power selection), I can also pull out things like expansion, hustle, bite of the wolf, grip of iron, and psionic minor creation, to switch tactics on the fly, using Linked Power (and catfall, hustle, hammer or grip of iron) to buff using swift actions. Vigor and share pain (both shared with a psicrystal) can add 5 temp hp per manifester level, and halves damage dealt (basically increasing mine and my psicrystal's hp by about 100 at ML 20; more with Overchannel). Not to mention claws of the vampire or vampiric weapon to heal (or plain ol' body adjustment).

Immunities are pretty decent as well, since I can access Illithid Slayer easily enough, or can just nab psionic mind blank or use metamorphosis (or a psychoactive skin of proteus) to change my type and subtype to grab various immunities (though this requires either a bit of foresight to have up beforehand, or the desire to be an object between battles - which are immune to just about everything).

Anybody using metamorphosis is SAD (Wis only, with maybe a bit of Int for skill points - with a decent skill list - and possibly Cha for Su abilities via Metamorphic Transfer), though there are enough self-buffs available on the psywar's list itself that you can basically just focus on Wis and use your buffs (and possibly slightly unusual tactics) to directly augment your ability scores or circumvent the need for having high scores.

You also can take your bonus feats from the fighter's array of feats, which includes most of the feats in ToB (see: maneuvers and stances), as well as psionic feats (which are awesome, and let you conserve pp in the beginning, via things like Psionic Fist).

If stamina is an issue, remember that you don't have to fully augment powers for them to work very well; a 1 pp expansion is an awesome buff, and a 1 pp bite of the wolf nets you crazy-good damage at later levels for such a little expenditure. And don't even get me started on what you can do with psionic minor creation if you get it on your power list somehow (and there are multiple ways of doing so). Psionic feats cost nothing but the expenditure (or retainment) of psionic focus, and are quite good for getting extra oomph if you want it. That, and you can get pp refills, and use, say, +1 manifesting arrows for an additional 5 pp each. Then there's torcs of power preservation (out of the XPH; the ones from the MIC are worthless), and the various items you can craft for yourself (as a much higher WBL will net you more power in the long run than a full BAB or d12 hp ever will).

And these are just a few things a single psychic warrior can do; there are tons of others, but you might not be able to fit them all into a single build.


As Lycanthromancer has pointed out, the psychic warrior gains methods for buffing without loosing chances to act, or has ways to recover from a "special move" quickly. All of these methods however require expenditure of something (focus, move actions, more focus, more move actions, and lots of PP). As wonderful as psionics are, and as much as I love them, I feel compelled to point out that it's not entirely as easy as Lycanthromancer suggests to OP everyone.Psychic warriors are effective without op-fu, but you can optimize the hell out of them if you know what you're doing.


Barbarians have 2 weaknesses which are shared by many , if not all , martial types.

They have trouble reaching their ennemies. (Grease, fly, etc)

They have low Will and Reflex saves. And no matter how high your STR and damage is, that won't change. Steadfast determination helps somewhat, especially while raging, but it's still a big problem. Eventually you gain magic items that can fix that problem though. Luckily, psychic warriors have ways of bypassing these. One of the reasons they make such awesome combatants.


A Paladin's mount (especially the dragons), on the other hand, can do just about everything a Barbarian does, and it also has a Paladin on top of it.Psychic warriors can say the same thing about their psicrystals, especially if metamorphosis is involved.

And before you say, 'but it's not on their power list!', it's easy to get it there. Some research, the mantled warrior ACF, or Expanded Knowledge get it there as early as level 8 (using mantled warrior and Overchannel, or at level 7 using research/mantled warrior and a power stone).


In a 1v1 fight a psywar is hands down the best, but a free for all? I would say they are at a big disadvantage unless they are going king of smack.

Psywars have a pathetic reserve of PP. They might be able to buff up enough to kill one or two other combatants but squeezing in another two would be near impossible IMHO. After linked power, schism, buffs, hustle, metamorphosis and PLC a psywar has gone a good portion of his PP pool. I don't see them having enough endurance to win when everyone is targeting him. An astral construct might go a long way for psywar in a FFA but even that only lasts 1/ML.

In a free for all I'd say crusader to have the best chance. Great recovery mechanics, delaying damage and a way to attack and heal (at the same time) gives it endurance out the wazoo.The stamina is the big downfall of the psychic warrior, this is true.

But it's not insurmountable, by any means. Just takes a bit of thought, and access to core, the XPH, and CPsi (which isn't at all unreasonable, really) to do. Knowledge of the system helps as well.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-07, 06:40 PM
The strength of the Paladin is the versatility he gets from his mount, his spellcasting and his saves (which was probably not the intent of the class).

I am...appalled that you think Paladins are strong, but disheartened when you mention "the mount". Can't handle well the joke of "you're playing a mount that has a paladin on top".

Paladin was a class that couldn't progress well with the passage of time. I've looked at old versions of Paladin, and it remains mostly the same, except that you could get the quest to find his divine weapon (which we know now as the Holy Avenger). The mount was boosted a tad too much, while the Paladin became outdated.

In fact, were it not because you mention the saves, I would call sarcasm on the "strengths".

The mount's size and what it offers isn't exactly a strength. A heavy warhorse isn't exactly groundbreaking by all means, and only when you get different kinds of mounts (wyrmling/young dragons, pegasi, gryphons, and even the rare unicorn) you get a bit more of buck for your figurative GP. If the Barbarian is often shoe-horned into dealing massive Strength damage, the Paladin is literally shoved into Ubercharger to make it "useful". And even then, just obliterating the mount beats the build.

I am relieved someone mentions the spellcasting, though. Yes, they got a really bad end of the stick when they got their spells. Really bad end of the stick; they get some nice spells, but either too late or too weak because of their senseless half-CL. I still wonder what was wrong in not giving them, say, Magic Vestment or Shield of Faith or, heck, even Righteous Might! They could have gone a bit with what the Bard had (not exactly full CL, but perhaps 17/20, and some more support). I do admire that some spells that benefit Paladins a tad more were given to them (Mark of Doom, Shield of Warding, Righteous Aura, Sacred Haven), but it depends a lot on splatbook goodness. I don't say pure Paladin spellcasting is totally horrible; they got Resist Energy and GMW and Holy Sword and Break Enchantment and Death Ward and Restoration. But the rest...dubiously good, even if they get just as many status-restoring abilities as the Cleric does, which make better scroll spells than prepared spells. The fact that it's considered makes me happy, tho.

Saves, well...they had a start there. They kept the MAD because they didn't thought that adding Charisma to attack and damage rolls was way too powerful, but they screwed it with the saves. They could have gone with the writing from Weapon Finesse (replacing one stat for another instead of merely stacking it) and they could have done well, since it's not too much of a stretch to think they fight better with their force of personality. A bit more of a stretch is to think they can survive the odds with their force of personality...

I love the concept of Paladins, but if I want them to do something, I tend to ignore the mount as it doesn't exactly offer what I seek when I'm playing. I prefer the ACFs, even though I'd rather take Underdark Knight or Divine Spirit to Charging Smite. I like that they can do much better use of most Divine feats than Clerics, even though later on that becomes irrelevant; that alone should be considered as something that separates them from most martial characters. However, I sadly see beyond those fan-glasses and accept that they can't be the strongest of martial classes, not even if they are just the mount's companion.

Also...if the Paladin can cast spells, summon a mount and turn the undead, and still be considered a martial character, why a Duskblade can't be considered as such? 5th level spells? No heavy armor proficiency (since as far as I know, Barbs don't have heavy armor proficiency and they do mighty well)? I'd add Duskblades and yes, even Hexblades to the list of martial characters simply because they get what defines most martial classes: full or nearly full BAB, proficiency with all martial weapons, and a focus on being in front and taking hits while dishing damage.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 06:44 PM
@Lycanthromancer

psichrystals can be as broken as Leadership. Allowing one allows the other imo.

Ability damage can be prevented by magic items/spells or recovered through restoration. A paladin has all of these options.

You also mention using Prestige classes, again we're not talking about a straight build. Paladin also gets some pretty insane builds when that's allowed.

I can use my mount to grant me total cover, and do ride checks to negate an attack each turn. It also shares spells and saves with me and has improved evasion. My spellcasting is also reduced to a swift action each turn, giving me more options.

Anything you throw at me that allows a save is unlikely to work, anything else can be ignored through immunities.

If I see you transform, I can just fly away and wait you out. My dragon isn't going anywhere, your form will only last so long.

A dragon's speed is high to start with, it get's insane when I use a wand to haste myself (which it also gets through shared spells). Even with a single point in UMD, by level 20 a Paladin has a +8 to it from Charisma.

Crafting and regaining lost xp = being a higher level than I am. If you insist on it then either you face an epic Paladin or you have a lower level than me.

I don't know much about the splatbooks you mentioned, but since you claim it's not unreasonable to allow them, I'm guessing they're not WotC.

Finally this argument is about as relevant as comparing a full spellcaster to a non-spellcasting class.

@T.G. Oskar

I fully realize how pathetic it is to be a mount's helper, but it's not my fault if the thing is that strong. And optimizing isn't related to roleplaying in any way.

Tehnar
2010-02-07, 07:06 PM
I think the MAD of most classes was a sneaky way of getting in the minimum ability score requirement from 2nd edition. I strongly suggest any DM allows the player to roll stats for their character.

With good stats paladins are very strong. Very high saves, high touch AC, and very resistant to any form of martial control.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-07, 07:07 PM
@Lycanthromancer

psichrystals can be as broken as Leadership. Allowing one allows the other imo.

If abused. If merely optimized, they end up being fairly useful versions of Familiars (with quite a few problems).


Ability damage can be prevented by magic items/spells or recovered through restoration. A paladin has all of these options.

A Paladin can restore his ability scores after 3 rounds using Lesser Restoration, and can use it less than 5 times/day unless you pimp his Bonus Spells. A PsiWar can not only use items to restore his stats, he can use a Psionic Power. Note that he has far more uses/day of that power than a Paladin has Lesser Restoration.


You also mention using Prestige classes, again we're not talking about a straight build. Paladin also gets some pretty insane builds when that's allowed.

Insane? The PsiWar is thew King/President/God of Smack for a reason (builds that, IIRC, Lycan had a hand or two in). Pally's have, what? Charger builds? Greyguard? Blackguard? Not all that impressive considering a PsiWar can get access to those same tricks (minus Greyguard).


I can use my mount to grant me total cover, and do ride checks to negate an attack each turn. It also shares spells and saves with me and has improved evasion. My spellcasting is also reduced to a swift action each turn, giving me more options.

Against your Mount. That cover means BS BTW, as both a Psionic Power and a feat negate it (and guess what PsiWars get a class features?).


Anything you throw at me that allows a save is unlikely to work, anything else can be ignored through immunities.

How the hell are you immune to Claw Attacks, Acid Damage in the mid 80's/attack, and Astral Constructs?


If I see you transform, I can just fly away and wait you out. My dragon isn't going anywhere, your form will only last so long.

His Metamorphosis can give him a Fly speed, or he can simply manifest another power to do that.


A dragon's speed is high to start with, it get's insane when I use a wand to haste myself (which it also gets through shared spells). Even with a single point in UMD, by level 20 a Paladin has a +8 to it from Charisma.

And if you feel like flying around and doing next to nothing all day, the PsiWar is just going to leave and find something that will actually fight back. Secondly, Dragons eligible for Mounts have fairly low Fly speeds compared to their larger kin. I don't think any Juviniel (SIC) Dragon has a Fly Speed above 150ft, and I know none of them have a speed high enough to outmatch Dimension Door (Psionic).


Crafting and regaining lost xp = being a higher level than I am. If you insist on it then either you face an epic Paladin or you have a lower level than me.

And an Epic Paladin has even less going for it than a normal one.


I don't know much about the splatbooks you mentioned, but since you claim it's not unreasonable to allow them, I'm guessing they're not WotC.

...Odds are he's talking about Hyperconcious and another book, both of which happen to be fairly common in PbP campaigns. Especially those with a Psionic focus. Otherwise, we bust out Eberron material and make your Paladin cry.


Finally this argument is about as relevant as comparing a full spellcaster to a non-spellcasting class.

The PsiWar is a Full Manifester, I'll give you that. But that alone is the reason a Paladin can't compare. PsiWars are also mini-Gishes, something the Paladin tried to be, but failed.

Pluto
2010-02-07, 07:44 PM
...Odds are he's talking about Hyperconcious and another book, both of which happen to be fairly common in PbP campaigns. Especially those with a Psionic focus. Otherwise, we bust out Eberron material and make your Paladin cry.
I only see reference to the Expanded Psionics handbook and Complete Psionic.
Not exactly the most obscure sources.

[Edit:]
And this No True Warrior thing is getting old.
If it uses swords/claws/arrows to kill things, it competes with classes that do the same.
In D&D 3.5, nobody doesn't use magic.

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-07, 07:54 PM
@T.G. Oskar

I fully realize how pathetic it is to be a mount's helper, but it's not my fault if the thing is that strong. And optimizing isn't related to roleplaying in any way.

That's why, if I'm going to make a Paladin, the first thing I do is try not to get the mount. Unless for some reason I get Holy Mount as a feat, which is highly improbable since it's a Dragon magazine feat, but...

That also depends on the scale of your optimization. If you want to optimize "Paladin", then indeed, you can consider mount optimization vs. spell optimization (Battle Blessing, Sword of the Arcane Order) or defense optimization (stacking bonuses to AC, stacking bonuses to saves, resistances, immunities) and determine which of them all solve the problems of a Paladin on most if not all scales. Optimization as practiced in the old CO forums and still practiced around here and in other places is more specific; you don't optimize a Paladin in general, you optimize a Paladin that wants to do X and Y thing. You consider that mount optimization is not only the best result for a Paladin, but the best result for all martial classes overall, which as proven by Lycan and Sinfire, isn't exactly the point. Each class has a set of optimal builds, and each has its strengths and weaknesses, but the PsyWar has less restrictions and more similarities to typically high-power classes so as to thwart the opposition.

For example: if Extra Spell said "you can choose any spell, including from those of another arcane class list", you could be sure Duskblade and Hexblade would see a bit more use. Expanded Knowledge's corollary makes the Psychic Warrior insanely strong, since it can choose powers from a Psion's discipline list and apply them as needed. That alone makes the Psychic Warrior a better "gish" than the other base classes, since the circumstances differ. It's not difficult to mention that bonus feats are class features of the PsyWar, which disregards any intention of denying that unless the DM specifically denies it. But on PO/TO? Welcome and pretty much recommended. That is one taste of why the PsyWar is so finger lickin' good.

Now, let's look at Paladin. While it doesn't have many options as it seems, when you look at it very, very closely, it has a multitude of options. Having Turn Undead allows it access to Divine Feats; having spells means you get new spells in several splatbooks, even if part of them are silly and senseless; being a full BAB class means you have access to martial feats, including and not limited to Martial Study and Martial Stance which are also finger-lick'n good. And that's without the realm of possibilities that ACFs and Dragon magazine opens, which has anything from replacing the mount for something of equal or lesser power to replacing Remove Disease for something far much better. And finally, since it's a divine spellcasting class, it gains access to some Initiate feats, to Reserve feats as a spellcasting class, to Devotion feats for their religious bent, and even to Exalted feats (if allowed by the DM) for being forcefully Lawful Good! And that's not mentioning the alternate mounts you can get through feats, such as the Drakkensteed and the dragon mount.

What makes it not so good at optimizing is that, despite the multitude of options, they don't work just that good as they work on Psychic Warriors. That doesn't mean you can't do something great with them: Battle Blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order for a pure Paladin is opening a world of possibilities, and all of those are mostly feat-based builds that could very well replace the mount. But compared to what the PsyWar can do with less splatbooks, it's almost unfair.

So no, it's not because of role-playing or optimization that I weep. It's because, just as the Barbarian gets pushed to damage dealing, a pure Paladin is pushed to mounted charging, which is a tactic that can be far more easily neutralized. Consider you are summoning your mount; your entire build is obliterated from the map with a single spell you probably can't block. Heck, two.

Banishment. Dismissal. And you probably don't have Dimensional Anchor to handle that.

At least the Barbarian (as mentioned and debated by Ashiel and me) has some other options even if the focus is on damage dealing. Their movement + trap sense + skills make them great scouts; better than Rangers, equal or better than Monks and possibly better than actual Scouts; can't be sure about CA Ninja, tho. Ashiel presented other options, which while not exactly optimized are at least viable (and that could be optimized further, as when I presented the Energy Bow as an alternative to Barbarian Str and ranged weapons). It's a simple focus, but that can be achieved through various ways (Rage changed to Whirling Frenzy for archery, or getting Pounce for example). With Paladin, which has far much more options than the Barbarian, the focus is almost tunnel-like, and that's not beneficial when your mount gets nuked by one spell/ability and your entire build goes down.

@Sinfire: I know you wished to debate the supremacy of PsyWar, but can you lower your tone at least? You don't have to drag Paladin further into the mud even if you want to be blunt...

Soranar
2010-02-07, 07:56 PM
If abused. If merely optimized, they end up being fairly useful versions of Familiars (with quite a few problems).

Merely optimized is not the point of this discussion. So sure let's bring in Leadership.


A Paladin can restore his ability scores after 3 rounds using Lesser Restoration, and can use it less than 5 times/day unless you pimp his Bonus Spells. A PsiWar can not only use items to restore his stats, he can use a Psionic Power. Note that he has far more uses/day of that power than a Paladin has Lesser Restoration.

Paladins have lesser restoration and restoration, and all paladin spells are cast as swift actions. It's true that a you have more uses, but I still have immunity options too and while you waste a fullround action I don't.


Insane? The PsiWar is thew King/President/God of Smack for a reason (builds that, IIRC, Lycan had a hand or two in). Pally's have, what? Charger builds? Greyguard? Blackguard? Not all that impressive considering a PsiWar can get access to those same tricks (minus Greyguard).

Vs the King of Smack I give you the king of Dragons. It's an ubermount build using every possible leadership feats and dragon cohort to get an insane amount of dragons on your side. The ubermount makes your mount actually higher level than you.


Against your Mount. That cover means BS BTW, as both a Psionic Power and a feat negate it (and guess what PsiWars get a class features?).

Didn't know that.


How the hell are you immune to Claw Attacks, Acid Damage in the mid 80's/attack, and Astral Constructs?



His Metamorphosis can give him a Fly speed, or he can simply manifest another power to do that.


And if you feel like flying around and doing next to nothing all day, the PsiWar is just going to leave and find something that will actually fight back. Secondly, Dragons eligible for Mounts have fairly low Fly speeds compared to their larger kin. I don't think any Juviniel (SIC) Dragon has a Fly Speed above 150ft, and I know none of them have a speed high enough to outmatch Dimension Door (Psionic).

What kind of fly speed though? Dimension door is great but it's not a movement, it's an action, so you can't act after you've done it and it makes you waste power points.

Waiting out buffs is a legitimate strategy when faced with something that can only have so many actions.


And an Epic Paladin has even less going for it than a normal one.

Epic leadership.


...Odds are he's talking about Hyperconcious and another book, both of which happen to be fairly common in PbP campaigns. Especially those with a Psionic focus. Otherwise, we bust out Eberron material and make your Paladin cry.

Eberron is a completely different setting.


The PsiWar is a Full Manifester, I'll give you that. But that alone is the reason a Paladin can't compare. PsiWars are also mini-Gishes, something the Paladin tried to be, but failed.

Paladin isn't a gish, it's a weird mount helper class with followers that are stronger than he is.

The best offensive option a Paladin has is probably still to just do a mounted charge with divine might and righteous fury (+15 damage +5 Str =20x 3= 60) which is enough to trigger the save or die Fort save from taking more than 50 damage. At that point it becomes about who hits first and fails his save.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-07, 08:17 PM
The best offensive option a Paladin has is probably still to just do a mounted charge with divine might and righteous fury (+15 damage +5 Str =20x 3= 60) which is enough to trigger the save or die Fort save from taking more than 50 damage. At that point it becomes about who hits first and fails his save.

I am too lazy to refute your other points, but massive damage? You do realize that is a DC 15 save right? 15. If your king of smack build can't pass that, you're doing something VERY wrong.

Also your 60 damage would like to speak to 192d8x10 per round 1920d8 per round if that all hits (very unlikely if you have good AC, but still.)

holywhippet
2010-02-07, 08:44 PM
A monk would really only stand a chance in a one on one fight against most of the other combat classes if they were using a ranged weapon and their opponent wasn't. Their speed means they can keep out of melee range (assuming the pit is large enough) while peppering their target with ranged hits.

At epic levels the monk can use infinite deflection so even if their opponent has a ranged weapon they are unlikely to ever do damage. Unless, of course, their opponent also has unlimited deflection which is unlikely since most fighters don't boost DEX that high.

Tinydwarfman
2010-02-07, 09:08 PM
A monk would really only stand a chance in a one on one fight against most of the other combat classes if they were using a ranged weapon and their opponent wasn't. Their speed means they can keep out of melee range (assuming the pit is large enough) while peppering their target with ranged hits.

At epic levels the monk can use infinite deflection so even if their opponent has a ranged weapon they are unlikely to ever do damage. Unless, of course, their opponent also has unlimited deflection which is unlikely since most fighters don't boost DEX that high.

The monk will do **** damage, and if the monk is fighting a Psywar, he will dimm door +hustle, if he is fighting an Ubercharger, the uberchager's mount may close the distance in a charge, and if not, just run for 1 round.

Also, never bring epic into any serious conversation unless the conversation is about how messed up epic is.

Ashiel
2010-02-07, 09:30 PM
Psychic warriors can say the same thing about their psicrystals, especially if metamorphosis is involved.

And before you say, 'but it's not on their power list!', it's easy to get it there. Some research, the mantled warrior ACF, or Expanded Knowledge get it there as early as level 8 (using mantled warrior and Overchannel, or at level 7 using research/mantled warrior and a power stone).

*Le-sigh* This more junk from that god-aweful book. This is why I hate the complete psionic so very, very much. It nerfs stuff that doesn't need nerfing (IE - psionic summoning vs any other summoning), and then breaks the hell out of stuff with crap like infinite damage combos (affinity field anyone?), recharging PP tricks (which are intentionally supposed to be impossible), and half a dozen broke-ass supplemental material (IE - the spell-to-power ardent, the mantled psywarrior, etc). I curse the day that this stupid book was published by WotC because it set psionics back a step or two, and actually makes it so that when DMs ban psionics from their games because they are messed up/broken/cheesy/unbalanced/stupid it's actually true.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/comppsi.jpg

/rant.

A psychic warrior (assuming the XPH only) cannot gain metamorphosis until 13th level with Expanded Knowledge, which essentially is spending a high level-only feat to pick up the ability to manifest a polymorph-like power, about 6 levels after someone could actually cast it. The character may be able to attempt to research the power earlier, but this is entirely within the realm of DM fiat, as described in the rules for psionic powers. You may find those rules here: Research, Psionic Powers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#independentResearch).


No I was responding to Ashiel who seems to worship Barbarians.

I agree that many non martial classes can fulfill those roles as well , even be better at them (a druid's pet for example is basically a Barbarian+ you get a full divine spellcaster).

But I maintain that a Duskblade is not a martial class, which was my point.

Considering what they bring to the group, I find Barbarians subpar: simply dealing damage is never as good as having more options. Being Strength focused means you can't be focused on AoO , so unlike a chain tripper you can either decide to trip a single opponent , bash him or shoot something else.

The strength of the Paladin is the versatility he gets from his mount, his spellcasting and his saves (which was probably not the intent of the class).

Hm. I must be coming off the wrong way if you believe I worship barbarians. I was just pointing out why they can be pretty amazing and would consider them the strongest martial class. My reasons for this are many. I would say I don't even consider them to be the most fun. I prefer playing other martial classes, or bards, psychic warriors, psions (not a martial class), duskblades/arcane-archers, and war-blade types.

However, it's useful to point out again, since my last post apparently wasn't clear enough: Barbarians can control the battlefield too. As noted, increasing your strength increases grappling, disarming, tripping, sundering, and so forth. Damage isn't the only thing that matters (something I also pointed out in my original post when commenting on a barbarian w/ polearm vs greataxe), but they just seem to be able to do damage exceedingly well. They can kill all kinds of stuff without even needing to use power attack, and then they can use power attack on top of that.

The fact is that the barbarian can trip, disarm, sunder, grapple, and so forth better than most other warriors can with penalties the barbarian already has to deal with. A number of the gishier classes, including paladins, psychic warriors, duskblades, and possibly (I'd need to double check this one) some martial adepts. A paladin could even risk loosing his abilities should he will-fully choose to use a berserking weapon (since he leaves himself uncontrolled and could slaughter innocents accidentally).

Not to rain on a paladin's parade but a barbarian can probably catch a paladin's mount while on foot (assuming a warhorse and not a light-horse). That's neither here no there though. A mounted paladin would give the barbarian some grief, I will say.

Also, I feel the barbarian is in the best situation should all of their junk get de-enhanced with a solid focus dispel-magic, or in an anti-magic field, and so forth, as they can still jump like freaking grass-hoppers, swim like dolphins, climb like monkies, and have access to most of their abilities (IE - all their stuff is Ex stuff). So in your worst case scenario, barbarians can still have options.

Just saying. :smallconfused:

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-07, 09:32 PM
Merely optimized is not the point of this discussion. So sure let's bring in Leadership.

Because Leadership says so much about the classes.



Paladins have lesser restoration and restoration, and all paladin spells are cast as swift actions. It's true that a you have more uses, but I still have immunity options too and while you waste a fullround action I don't.

Hate to break it to you, but Battle Blessing only works on spells with a Standard action casting time. If it's something like Restoration, it still takes a minimum of a Full Round to cast with that feat.



Vs the King of Smack I give you the king of Dragons. It's an ubermount build using every possible leadership feats and dragon cohort to get an insane amount of dragons on your side. The ubermount makes your mount actually higher level than you.

Yes, because Leadership and Dragon Cohort says the Paladin is a formidable class. Considering a Ranger (hell, anyone with Wild Cohort or Leadership) can do the exact same thing.



What kind of fly speed though? Dimension door is great but it's not a movement, it's an action, so you can't act after you've done it and it makes you waste power points.

Adult Copper Dragon if needed. Metamorphasis is really damn good. And in case you didn't know, only the Big 6 are capable of matching the action economy of a Full Manifester (PsiWar, Psion, Wilder, what have you). The Factotum comes close, but he can't keep it up all day long the way a manifester can.


Waiting out buffs is a legitimate strategy when faced with something that can only have so many actions.

I'm going to regret this, but:

PSIONICS! MOAR ACTIONS THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR!!!!



Epic leadership.

Because Leadership says a lot about the Paladin class. FIne, if you're spamming Leadership, PsiWars have access to it too. Or Thrallherd, which is known to be more powerful than Leadership.



Eberron is a completely different setting.

Because we specified the setting was Greyhawk. Right, forgot that.


Paladin isn't a gish, it's a weird mount helper class with followers that are stronger than he is.

Says a lot about how powerful the class itself is, doesn't it?


The best offensive option a Paladin has is probably still to just do a mounted charge with divine might and righteous fury (+15 damage +5 Str =20x 3= 60) which is enough to trigger the save or die Fort save from taking more than 50 damage. At that point it becomes about who hits first and fails his save.

As others have said, PsiWars are the King of Smack, with damage/round in the lower hundreds. With all of those bonus feats, we could make a PsiWar Charger build that will kill a CR 24 in one round. And still have options left over when Charging isn't an option.


I highlighted that last part because that's what makes a class useful in 3.5. Your Paladin is worthless in situations where the Mount you summon is impractical (like, any dungeon with rooms too small for the Mount to stand properly without squeezing). Negate a Charger Build PsiWar, and he just starts manifesting powers to do something useful. Like Astral Construct. Or Metamorphosis. Or whatever he learned. Whereas your Paladin has to resort to using a Swift action every turn to cast a spell from a very limited list (seriously, remove the Pally's mount and all of a sudden several very useful spells become utterly worthless, leaving you with healing spells and very little offense). The Paladin's spell list is centered around it's theme, while the PsiWar's powers are centered around combat in general (which happens to make him very useful in combat).

OIh, and Battle Blessing doesn't remove the Swift action limitation, so you literally cannot cast more than one spell per round unless you also prepare spells with Full Round casting times. Whereas the PsiWar has Schism, Quicken Power, and Psionic Meditation to abuse his every action. With or without a Psicrystal.


If we're talking action economy, Psionics is ahead of the rest of the game (barring the Big 6, but even then there's a Psionic class in that list). Battle Blessing helps, but it doesn't remove all of the problems the Paladin has. Like the fact that his mount is more powerful than his entire class.

holywhippet
2010-02-07, 10:06 PM
The monk will do **** damage, and if the monk is fighting a Psywar, he will dimm door +hustle, if he is fighting an Ubercharger, the uberchager's mount may close the distance in a charge, and if not, just run for 1 round.

Also, never bring epic into any serious conversation unless the conversation is about how messed up epic is.

I was mainly pointing out that the monk works better at hit and run tactics than a stand up fight and can, to some extent, outdo certain other classes for hit and run.

For that matter, if you have the battle between level 20 characters with no magic allowed of any sort, the monk has DR 10/Magic which makes them pretty hard to hurt. Doesn't mean much in a real game of course, not many opponents aren't going to be using magic when you are at level 20.

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-07, 10:10 PM
I was mainly pointing out that the monk works better at hit and run tactics than a stand up fight and can, to some extent, outdo certain other classes for hit and run.

For that matter, if you have the battle between level 20 characters with no magic allowed of any sort, the monk has DR 10/Magic which makes them pretty hard to hurt. Doesn't mean much in a real game of course, not many opponents aren't going to be using magic when you are at level 20.

Wait, there are level 20 noncaster characters who don't wield +1/+9 weapons?


That's news in my book.

holywhippet
2010-02-07, 10:16 PM
Wait, there are level 20 noncaster characters who don't wield +1/+9 weapons?


That's news in my book.

Isn't that what I said? At level 20 about the only non-magical attacks you might expect are dragons attacking with their claws.

Ashiel
2010-02-07, 10:19 PM
I was mainly pointing out that the monk works better at hit and run tactics than a stand up fight and can, to some extent, outdo certain other classes for hit and run.

For that matter, if you have the battle between level 20 characters with no magic allowed of any sort, the monk has DR 10/Magic which makes them pretty hard to hurt. Doesn't mean much in a real game of course, not many opponents aren't going to be using magic when you are at level 20.

It's worth noting that if a creature has DR/Magic then all their attacks function as Magic to overcome DR. This means that even monsters attacking with their claws (especially dragons) will laugh at your DR at those levels. You might as well not even have a DR. Also, even NPCs, especially at higher levels should be wielding magic-enhanced weaponry - even if it's only in the form of oils of greater magic weapon splashed on their gear beforehand.

3.5 ruined the magic weapon aspect of DR, but greatly increased the overall variety of DR and also made it less of a brick wall (DR 15/Magic and Adamantine is far less terrible than DR 30/+5). I personally would have liked to have seen them make it more like DR/+X Magic, with other DR being around. This would only work well for certain monsters and likely would have been abused horribly in later Monster Manuals should this have occurred.

Samb
2010-02-07, 11:57 PM
*Le-sigh* This more junk from that god-aweful book. This is why I hate the complete psionic so very, very much. It nerfs stuff that doesn't need nerfing (IE - psionic summoning vs any other summoning), and then breaks the hell out of stuff with crap like infinite damage combos (affinity field anyone?), recharging PP tricks (which are intentionally supposed to be impossible), and half a dozen broke-ass supplemental material (IE - the spell-to-power ardent, the mantled psywarrior, etc). I curse the day that this stupid book was published by WotC because it set psionics back a step or two, and actually makes it so that when DMs ban psionics from their games because they are messed up/broken/cheesy/unbalanced/stupid it's actually true.


This thread isn't about CPsi, but since you brought it up:

Feel free to be gimp.

Psionics and much less CPsi is not "messed up/broken/cheesy/unbalanced/stupid". It is powerful, nothing more nothing less. Compare it to arcane and divine spells they are still lack in versatility.
You don't know what you are talking about. Yes they gimped AC and that was unfortunate, but linked power, metapower, Ardent, mantle, make up for it. Recharging PP was doable with a wilder using bestow power and wild surge +2, so please try to keep that in perspective. What can psi users do that an arcane counterpart can't? DMs ban psionics because they don't feel like learning a whole new system. Arcane and divine spells are hard enough to keep track of.



A psychic warrior (assuming the XPH only) cannot gain metamorphosis until 13th level with Expanded Knowledge, which essentially is spending a high level-only feat to pick up the ability to manifest a polymorph-like power, about 6 levels after someone could actually cast it.
Compared to a barbarian who can't use it at all I'd say better late than never. And if you included CPsi, you could get it at 8th level. Like I said before, it is your freedom to be gimp, but don't put that standard on the rest of us. Some of us like to play powerful PCs, while others limit their own resources for one reason or the other. I'm the former and you are the latter.

Ashiel
2010-02-08, 01:09 AM
This thread isn't about CPsi, but since you brought it up:

Feel free to be gimp.

Psionics and much less CPsi is not "messed up/broken/cheesy/unbalanced/stupid". It is powerful, nothing more nothing less. Compare it to arcane and divine spells they are still lack in versatility.
You don't know what you are talking about. Yes they gimped AC and that was unfortunate, but linked power, metapower, Ardent, mantle, make up for it. Recharging PP was doable with a wilder using bestow power and wild surge +2, so please try to keep that in perspective. What can psi users do that an arcane counterpart can't? DMs ban psionics because they don't feel like learning a whole new system. Arcane and divine spells are hard enough to keep track of.


Compared to a barbarian who can't use it at all I'd say better late than never. And if you included CPsi, you could get it at 8th level. Like I said before, it is your freedom to be gimp, but don't put that standard on the rest of us. Some of us like to play powerful PCs, while others limit their own resources for one reason or the other. I'm the former and you are the latter.Emphasis mine.

First off, I'm well aware of what arcane and divine magic can do. That's one of the reasons I love the psionics system so much. Also, I don't remember coming to your house and burning your books, so step off this junk about me putting my standards on you. Don't presume to know me.

Apparently your idea of gimped and my idea of gimped vary wildly. The psychic warrior has been heralded as one of the most balanced character classes in the game. I've heard on a multitude of occasions that many people view the psychic warrior as the basis of what they determine balance with.

Psionic recharging required you to be a wilder of at least 4th level, having spent one of your very, very limited powers on bestow power, having an item that reduces the PP cost by -1, and then spending a lot of time wild surging yourself back up 1 power point at a time, and getting hosed down when you hit an enervation, requiring you to start over somewhat yet again. It's quirky at best, and gets less effective as you gain levels. This is NOTHING compared to the infinite-PP recharge from an affinity field loop.

Complete Psionic? I could point to Lycanthromancer's post as a great example of aromatic limburger that that book provides. Metamorphosis at level 8 on a psychic warrior? It seems like common sense that this is messed up.

As presented, the 3.5 EPH/SRD version of psionics is incredibly well balanced. Psions are comparable to core casters but not nearly as broken. Psychic warriors are incredibly well balanced, versatile, and have a lot of great and fun to play with options. Soul-knives were under-powered and wilders can have difficulties but make decent gishes or fun summoners. The system is beautiful. The powers are good but most of them aren't nearly as busted as 3.x core casters (less no save and suck effects) and they made direct damage do-able with the energy powers.

In return, they are far easier to multi-class, gish, customize, and so forth. They can manifest powers from power stones and even other creatures with their own PP reserves. They can manifest while silenced. In my opinion they are more fun as a player and more fun to DM for; and they hold themselves incredibly well in terms of strength, versatility, and ability to react and adapt to encounters without being god or making encounters entirely trivial.

And no; most of the people I've asked as to their reasons for dis-allowing psionics usually respond to me with a comment about it being overpowered, broken, and/or imbalanced. When I inquire further they mention the infinite loops, the original pun-pun, ardents, spell-to-power, the king of smack (which requires several splat books outside of EPH/SRD last I checked), and so forth. A lot of other crap that gives 3.5 Psionics a bad name.

When people came to the WotC PsiBoards asking if they should buy the CompPsi, they received an almost unanimous response consisting of advice not to buy it, and sometimes gave an honorable mention to a few options in the book, followed by saying it was about 80-90% complete garbage, and pointing them to better 3PP books for their psionic sourcebook needs. Most considered the CompPsi to be a waste of money, even if you got it used for $.30. There is a REASON for this animosity amongst psionics fans.

That Being Said
As I noted previously, I believe the barbarian does have a lot going for it as the strongest melee class; especially if you're considering an all-out brawl between different classes. Mainly because it does what others have to specialize to do on accident (as a result of just being so damn strong), while maintaining various options for using that strength (ranged, melee, terrain, etc) while staying well within their WBL limits.

HOWEVER I would note that I enjoy playing and DMing for Psychic Warriors more because they are more fun, and more interesting in my opinion, more often. As noted before they are balanced and have lots of options, and often in different ways. They make incredibly effective tanks thanks with Vigor + Share Power + Share Pain + Psicrystal to buff their lower than average HP significantly. They can self-buff very well.

They can summon flanking companions by Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), and even pull some battlefield control with Expanded Knowledge (Wall of Ectoplasm) or (Energy Wall). They can punish people for hitting them with Expanded Knowledge (Energy Retort), or (Freedom of Movement) to stand up to large enemies grappling them, or (True Seeing) to get past other hazards and hurdles. They can, as noted previously, pop a Metamorphosis at 13th level due to Expanded Knowledge, which at that level isn't so bad.

Or you can build them up with Deep Impact to launch strong touch-attack power attacks, drop a greater psionic weapon, enhance your blade or claws to magical poisonous weapons, while Dimension Swap-ing you and the party's ambushed Squishy if someone gets past your Expansion lockdown and manages to get to your party's wizard or psion or bard (or whatever). Or you could make them an archer, a mounted combatant, a grappler, a tripper, a half a dozen other things and still not suck or be too powerful.

Do I think they're broken? Nope. They actually play very well. They have their own limitations that keep them in check. Are they fun to play? Hell yes they are. Do they need metamorphosis at 8th level? No, they don't.

I think your problem, Samb, is you seem to think it's special or somehow difficult to break the game. It's not, but give yourself a pat on the back from me for trying. It's good to have self confidence, and pride in what you do. It's a trademark worth respecting. Here, I'll show you some other great legitimate strategies with the game that you can enjoy; since infinite damage and instant-PP recharging, as well as Metamorphosis at 8th level, spell-to-power ardents, and so forth might not be strong enough for you. We wouldn't want to gimp anyone, right?

Polymorph Any Object your party's Barbarian or Psychic Warrior into a giant.
Make a simulacrum of an Efreeti. Wish for a rod of infinite wishes. Win D&D.
Cast Genesis, go to your plane, permit no one to enter, become a lich, and then polymorph any object a rock into a human. Cast it again to make it permanent. Then remove a piece of that human (let's say a rib), then cast polymorph any object to create a permanent female human. Populate your world. Feel free to do the same for a few days prior to creating the actual humans. Then on the 7th day, sit back and admire your handiwork as an immortal god of your own world as your original creations breed and populate your world.

You probably won't need to worry about being gimped. You might like it.
Again, don't assume to know me, or what I do or enjoy. :smallsmile:

T.G. Oskar
2010-02-08, 01:24 AM
Hate to break it to you, but Battle Blessing only works on spells with a Standard action casting time. If it's something like Restoration, it still takes a minimum of a Full Round to cast with that feat.

Erm...I know this will sound like nitpicking, but I detect a sense of condescendence against the entire Paladin class just because someone is claiming one build is far better than the rest and for some strange and odd reason it seems like a major offense to at least point that out. I know that Soranar is going too far with it, but please don't go farther than that, alright?

Now, I have my copy of Complete Champion open right at page 55, and I'm reading the Battle Blessing feat description. While it doesn't alter Restoration because it's a 3-round action, it does allow full-round spells to be cast as standard action spells. I speak of this because it's expanding on what you were saying, and because it seems you're only aware of the standard-to-swift action speed up.

Things like that happen. However...going on a rant on why Paladin sucks like nobody's business without even considering that at least it attempts to have an entry upon the strongest martial classes seems to be a tad overboard. Certainly, I don't share Soranar's idea that ubercharger Paladin is the best build, nor that you can't do anything else with a Paladin than playing the mount as you state. I don't use the mount much, and if I'm going to do optimizing with the class, I'll at least attempt to work something without the mount. If I really wanted the mount that much, I'd already have chosen Cavalier which seems to do far much more and kept it as is.


Says a lot about how powerful the class itself is, doesn't it?

Again, kinda nitpicky, but it doesn't say the class sucks. I mean, it's not a Monk. And even then, if you decide so, you can attempt to do something worthwhile with a Monk, even if it ends up with Tashalatora + PsyWar. But it doesn't help to show a brutal bias to one side and disregard the rest. After all, in terms of martial combat, the Big 6 still eat the PsyWar for breakfast...


I highlighted that last part because that's what makes a class useful in 3.5. Your Paladin is worthless in situations where the Mount you summon is impractical (like, any dungeon with rooms too small for the Mount to stand properly without squeezing). Negate a Charger Build PsiWar, and he just starts manifesting powers to do something useful. Like Astral Construct. Or Metamorphosis. Or whatever he learned. Whereas your Paladin has to resort to using a Swift action every turn to cast a spell from a very limited list (seriously, remove the Pally's mount and all of a sudden several very useful spells become utterly worthless, leaving you with healing spells and very little offense). The Paladin's spell list is centered around it's theme, while the PsiWar's powers are centered around combat in general (which happens to make him very useful in combat).

Odd. That shows how little you've read the Paladin's spell list.

I'm one of the first that understands the Paladin's spell list is not the best. But I've stated, between the options, a lot of spells that don't focus on the mount exclusively. Sure, I could have mentioned Heal Mount, which is...pretty much the only Core spell that affects your mount. Death Ward helps anyone to which it is cast; the mount is not the only beneficiary. Neither does Greater Magic Weapon, which can't benefit the mount at all but benefits the Paladin and his martial partners. Resist Energy benefits everyone else, too. And...can you cast Holy Sword on your mount? Maybe you can, since it doesn't specify manufactured weapon; however, it IS intended not for the mount but for the one holding the lance, which should be treated with equal respect.

In fact, if you expand to Spell Compendium and Complete Champion, the mount-centric spells don't cover more than 50% of the list. Heck, not even the 30%. I'd say somewhere between the 5% and the 10%, and perhaps close to 50% of the beneficial spells of the Paladin. Actually, the Paladin's spell list is centric on self-buffs, mild retaliation, enhancing his skills, mostly defense, AND his mount. That shows how little you read on the Paladin spell list. I mean, if you read further, you have a spell that grants a reduced form of Lay on Hands on people!!

It sounds nitpicky, but I get a bit irked when people don't seem to respect the full extent of the Paladin's spell list, however terrible it may seem. It has its gems, but those gems have to be throughly dug and separated to be found. Doesn't mean they aren't there. Same thing for Ranger, which is often fared worse than the Paladin because of its spell list.


If we're talking action economy, Psionics is ahead of the rest of the game (barring the Big 6, but even then there's a Psionic class in that list). Battle Blessing helps, but it doesn't remove all of the problems the Paladin has. Like the fact that his mount is more powerful than his entire class.

Stating the obvious doesn't help you're heavily biased against Paladin. If the Paladin's mount is more powerful than the Paladin himself, then I'll gladly allow you to play a mount alone. I'll see if it's more powerful than the rest. I can clearly say it is one of the best things a Paladin can get; even then, I'd rather be without it than with it. Even if I get about 5-10% of the spells unusable, but surely I'll look for something else to replace.

I'm...actually feeling bad for the Ranger, though. Even the CW Samurai has entered the niche here as a strong contender with the Shneekey's Takahashi-no-Oniisan build, but Rangers seem like the red-headed stepchilds in here. They don't get even a bit of love. Where, oh where, is the Ranger defender that will show some nifty tricks for their contending without saying "Swift Hunter Ranger"?

Lycanthromancer
2010-02-08, 01:31 AM
Merely optimized is not the point of this discussion. So sure let's bring in Leadership.No. My psychic warrior can do Leadership at least as well as your paladin can, and has access to THRALLHERD, which is considerably better than Leadership.

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t239/keith82273/how_about_no.jpg


Paladins have lesser restoration and restoration, and all paladin spells are cast as swift actions. It's true that a you have more uses, but I still have immunity options too and while you waste a fullround action I don't. With Linked Power a psywar can manifest it as a non-action this round to get the benefits next round, which is faster than your paladin can do it, y'know. Not exactly a point in the paladin's favor.


Vs the King of Smack I give you the king of Dragons. It's an ubermount build using every possible leadership feats and dragon cohort to get an insane amount of dragons on your side. The ubermount makes your mount actually higher level than you.Irrelevant. That's not you. That's your retinue. Now, if you were giving them direct benefits (such as by being a bard), I could see it being an issue, but you bring nothing to that particular table.


What kind of fly speed though? Dimension door is great but it's not a movement, it's an action, so you can't act after you've done it and it makes you waste power points.Metamorphosis can grant up to 120 ft in movement, while hustle grants me a move action. Thus, without the Run feat I can take a x4 move (480 ft) with an extra move action (600 ft) and I have access to schism, which grants me access to psionic dimension door (for a total of 1800 ft at level 20). Can YOU fly 1800 ft in one round?

I can go farther. Do you want me to move farther? Because I can so move farther. The above was without any actual effort. No haste, no Speed of Thought, no soulmelds, no maneuvers, no anything.


Waiting out buffs is a legitimate strategy when faced with something that can only have so many actions.As has been pointed out, psionics is awesome at playing the action economy game. And having a couple of psychoactive skins of proteus means the psywar can use metamorphosis at will, all day long.


Epic leadership.No. Psicrystals are granted as part of the psychic warrior's class abilities (psionic bonus feats). You don't get Leadership OR Epic Leadership as part of your class. Irrelevant.


Eberron is a completely different setting.Who said anything about the setting? Nobody said anything about any setting.


Paladin isn't a gish, it's a weird mount helper class with followers that are stronger than he is.Then he's not a martial class, either, if he's babysitting a bunch of dragons and not actually doing much else. Which is clearly not the case.


The best offensive option a Paladin has is probably still to just do a mounted charge with divine might and righteous fury (+15 damage +5 Str =20x 3= 60) which is enough to trigger the save or die Fort save from taking more than 50 damage. At that point it becomes about who hits first and fails his save.Let's give you an idea of how much damage my previous build could do on a single charge. It's a neraph psychic warrior 20, using metamorphosis to turn into an arrow demon (which is nowhere near as much hurt as I could put out, I assure you).

A Strength score of 29 (21 base + 8), after having drained your paladin in round 1 with two full-attacks using strength of my enemy (could be much higher with a better high-Str form, but I'm comparing your 60 dmg build above, so let's go with something rather suboptimal, shall we?).

On a pouncing charge with dual-wielded +5 lances (used two-handed, one of which has a speed enhancement) and a +5 dancing lance, (using Two-Weapon Fighting , Ride-by Attack and Spirited Charge) wearing rhino hide armor, a bite attack from bite of the wolf, and a flying 7-headed psicrystal hydra (with a +7 enhancement bonus to Str from all of the bite attacks it did last round), that's a full-attack routine of +29/+29/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19/+19 (lances), +24 (bite of the wolf), and +23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23/+23 (hydra bites).

Now, each of those lance attacks are dealing x1.5 Str damage for being wielded 2-handed (with the off-hand being wielded at .5 Str, for a .75 effective Str mod), and dealing x3 damage per hit, with a +2d6 points of damage for every strike via rhino hide.

I'll even throw you a bone and say the +2d6 points of damage from rhino hide isn't multiplied.

The attacks thus deal the following damage, assuming they hit:
[b]+5 Lance of Speed
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +29 to hit)
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +29 to hit)
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +24 to hit)
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +19 to hit)

+5 Lance (Off-Hand)
3d8+2d6+33 (avg 53.5 dmg, +29)

+5 Dancing Lance
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +29 to hit)
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +24 to hit)
3d8+2d6+54 (avg 74.5 dmg, +19 to hit)

Bite of the Wolf
10d8+2d6+9 (avg 61 dmg, +24 to hit)

Psicrystal Hydra Bites
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)
2d10+16 (avg 27 dmg, +23 to hit)

For a grand total of 825 average damage (if they all hit, and if I did my math right). I didn't weight this with criticals in mind (which will increase the damage considerably, what with a x3 modifier on the lances), nor with much thought given to equipment (metaphysical weapon could give me a +5 on all of those lances, and I could've used the extra points of enhancement for all sorts of nifty things, such as collision (+5 points of damage per hit, multiplied to +15 on a charge), and suppression (manifests dispel psionics at my ML on every single hit).

60 damage? I was doing that a long time ago. Oh, and I never actually bothered using Power Attack, Leap Attack, OR Shock Trooper. How much more damage do you think I could do if I actually added those in?

Psychic warrior, not a martial class? I beg to differ.

Samb
2010-02-08, 01:37 AM
Emphasis mine.

Apparently your idea of gimped and my idea of gimped vary wildly. The psychic warrior has been heralded as one of the most balanced character classes in the game. I've heard on a multitude of occasions that many people view the psychic warrior as the basis of what they determine balance with.

I don't recall that. I recall them being called the one of the best classes period, and a large part has to do with having metamorphosis and metamorphic transfer.


Psionic recharging required you to be a wilder of at least 4th level, having spent one of your very, very limited powers on bestow power, having an item that reduces the PP cost by -1, and then spending a lot of time wild surging yourself back up 1 power point at a time, and getting hosed down when you hit an enervation, requiring you to start over somewhat yet again. It's quirky at best, and gets less effective as you gain levels. This is NOTHING compared to the infinite-PP recharge from an affinity field loop.
Hmm wilders can recharge without PP lowering items. and the trick works if you are under level 9 wilder based on the chance of ennervation. Of course with one feat in CPsi a wilder can keep it going till level 18. And last I checked affinity field was in SRD......



Complete Psionic? I could point to Lycanthromancer's post as a great example of aromatic limburger that that book provides. Metamorphosis at level 8 on a psychic warrior? It seems like common sense that this is messed up.

Messed up GOOD!!!!!


In return, they are far easier to multi-class, gish, customize, and so forth. ..............
You clearly have not seen a good ardent. Nothing multiclasses like an ardent. Oh wait that's from CPsi too.


When people came to the WotC PsiBoards asking if they should buy the CompPsi, they received an almost unanimous response consisting of advice not to buy it, and sometimes gave an honorable mention to a few options in the book, followed by saying it was about 80-90% complete garbage, and pointing them to better 3PP books for their psionic sourcebook needs. Most considered the CompPsi to be a waste of money, even if you got it used for $.30. There is a REASON for this animosity amongst psionics fans.

That's well and good, yet many people are afraid to admit that they never make a PC without some kind of material from CPsi. I have yet to see one min/max'er not use linked power or anticipatory strike. If you are a min/max'er then you will be using at least those two. And that makes "everyone" you mentioned lairs or faux powergamers.

Sure they killed the Astral construct abuse, but there is SOOOO much more to do that I gleefully overlook it. Nerf HET? It barely hit anything anyway since it is mind effecting.


They can summon flanking companions by Expanded Knowledge (Astral Construct), and even pull some battlefield control with Expanded Knowledge (Wall of Ectoplasm) or (Energy Wall). They can punish people for hitting them with Expanded Knowledge (Energy Retort), or (Freedom of Movement) to stand up to large enemies grappling them, or (True Seeing) to get past other hazards and hurdles. They can, as noted previously, pop a Metamorphosis at 13th level due to Expanded Knowledge, which at that level isn't so bad.

While you can spend all your bonus feats on EK, this is not advisable since you'll need at least 5 psychic talents to shore up psywar's pathetic PP pool, one of their main weaknesses. But you are correct psywar can do all that and more.



Or you can build them up with Deep Impact to launch strong touch-attack power attacks, drop a greater psionic weapon, enhance your blade or claws to magical poisonous weapons, while Dimension Swap-ing you and the party's ambushed Squishy if someone gets past your Expansion lockdown and manages to get to your party's wizard or psion or bard (or whatever). Or you could make them an archer, a mounted combatant, a grappler, a tripper, a half a dozen other things and still not suck or be too powerful.
For this thread there are no allies, it's free for all. And you are wrong: they can do all the things you mentioned and do it them very well.



Do they need metamorphosis at 8th level? No, they don't.

But having that power is what gives them the edge. Why limit yourself in thought debate about "strongest martial class"? No one else is. If a psywar can it at level 8 who are you to say they shouldn't?


I think your problem, Samb, is you seem to think it's special or somehow difficult to break the game.
If getting metamorphosis at level 8 is "game-breaking" for you then you are in the wrong boards.


PS king of smack did require a splat book but it wasn't CPsi it was....... draconimion, for rapid strike.

Eldariel
2010-02-08, 01:49 AM
Isn't that what I said? At level 20 about the only non-magical attacks you might expect are dragons attacking with their claws.

Except they can generally acquire Greater Magic Fang permanently really, really easily, they can cast Superior Magic Fang and olders than Young Adults treat their natural attacks as magical by default so yeah, not even then.

AstralFire
2010-02-08, 02:43 AM
Monk is the only class that has as its capstone "SCREW YOU COMMONERS."

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-08, 02:51 AM
CompPsi has a rather back and forth debate on its quality, and both sides are rather intractable. Personally, I see it as a give and take. Adds options, removes others.

Can we check our opinions on the quality of the material, and actually go to discussing which class is strongest?

Ashiel
2010-02-08, 01:01 PM
Samb
You are correct. Affinity Field is in the SRD. I was, poorly, using it as an example reason as to why psionics are often treated like crap in general. Arcane magic has their broken tricks too, but they're usually more forward and direct (IE - shrink object + fly, or explosive runes + dispel magic).


Hmm wilders can recharge without PP lowering items. and the trick works if you are under level 9 wilder based on the chance of ennervation. Of course with one feat in CPsi a wilder can keep it going till level 18. And last I checked affinity field was in SRD......

You can't bestow more PP to yourself than you have manifester levels. You can manifest it at a Y manifester level, but that doesn't change the fact your manifester level is still X. You spend 3pp to manifest the power baseline, then 3 more PP to augment for 2PP additional gain. To gain anything at all, you need a +3 wild surge or a +2 wild surge and a -1 PP cost item, to pay for the +3pp augmentation without spending more power points. This can result in a net 1 point gain, and comes with a 10-15% chance to loose 4-7pp. It requires a standard action each time you attempt to recharge in this manner. This means you will be standing around doing a whole lot of nothing for a while while you recharge. The higher your level goes the less effective this trick becomes; assuming the EPH/SRD only.

But I'm digressing now.


That's well and good, yet many people are afraid to admit that they never make a PC without some kind of material from CPsi. I have yet to see one min/max'er not use linked power or anticipatory strike. If you are a min/max'er then you will be using at least those two. And that makes "everyone" you mentioned lairs or faux powergamers.

For this thread there are no allies, it's free for all. And you are wrong: they can do all the things you mentioned and do it them very well.

But having that power is what gives them the edge. Why limit yourself in thought debate about "strongest martial class"? No one else is. If a psywar can it at level 8 who are you to say they shouldn't?

PS king of smack did require a splat book but it wasn't CPsi it was....... draconimion, for rapid strike.

I'm not afraid to admit I don't use those powers. I don't use a number of things though (particularly various spell abuses. They're far from needed to smack-down most encounters.

I don't know why. I guess if this is just a theoretical talk about how someone can cheese the system to make the strongest martial class, then yeah, I guess I'm doing things wrong. I will humbly withdraw from the thread since this sort of thing doesn't really hold my interest like it used to.

Also, I wasn't claiming the King of Smack or all the other things I mentioned were a direct result of the Complete Psionic. I was pointing out that the vast majority of broken things psionics are known for are generally because of splatbooks beyond the EPH.

Before I go, here's my final contribution to the thread. I'm going to use Barbarian since I've been giving it an honorable mention throughout the thread.



Human Barbarian 20
Starting Ability Scores: 15, 13, 14, 10, 12, 8
Final Ability Scores: 25, 18, 19, 15, 17, 13 (+5 inherent bonuses)
Plus Equipment: 31, 24, 25, 15, 23, 13 (+6 enhancement bonuses)

Equipment: +1 Berserking Bladed Gauntlet of Dexterity +6, +1 Berserking Locked Gauntlet, +1 Berserking Armor Spikes, +1 Berserking Shield Spikes (on a +1 Animated Heavy Shield), +1 Lucky Ghost Touch Berserking Collision Guisarme, +1 Seeking Distance Energy Bow of Berserking Speed, +1 Death Warding Chain Shirt of Heavy Fortification, Cloak of Resistance +5 of Minor Displacement, Dust of Disappearance x 10, Charging Boots of Psionic Lion's Speed of Constitution +6, Skin of Proteus, Ring of Blinking, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Lavender and Green Ioun Stone, Amulet of Health +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6, Headband of Wisdom +6, and 6,250gp in reserves minus the cost to have an Efreeti summoned and some potions of enlarge person, blur, and mirror image

Ability Scores + Rage/Berserking + Enlarge Person: 61, 22, 55, 15, 23, 13.
Hit Points: 135.5 base, +450 con, 585 total
Saving throws: Fort +39, Ref +17, Will +31, Armor Class: 6, DR 5/_, Blink 50/20% miss chance, and 1d4+1 mirror images with a 50/20% miss chance.
Feats include: Power Attack, Shock Trooper, Blind-Fight, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Two Weapon Fighting, Mental Resistance, Improved Initiative

Full Attack Charge:
Guisarme +45/+45/+45/+40/+35/+30 -> 5ft Step to Shield Bash at +45
Damage Per Hit (Guisarme): 2d8+83
Damage Per Hit (Shield Bash): 2d6+45
May Re-roll an attack roll once per day.

Average Damage (assuming all manage to land):
- 604 damage, and forcing seven 5% chances of killing the opponent outright (assuming the opponent rolls a 1 on a massive damage save).

Ranged Attacks (Accuracy range, 220 feet)
+29/+29/+23/+19/+14/+9
Damage (assuming one manages to land)
- 2d8+23, ignores concealment, DR, and incorporeal


It's not the best in the world I suppose. It is capable of flight, metamorphosis, and guarding itself with Death Ward prior to combat (but unfortunately not during combat, so that's a pre-buff thing if the barbarian notices his enemies coming). His blind-fight coupled with a high listen skill modifier is nice, and opens him up for Pierce Magical Concealment, which allows him to avoid his own Blink penalties, so he can attack most enemies with their guard down. A dip into Fighter may have been helpful (would have given up a little bit of strength and constitution from mighty rage, but could picked up combat reflexes and stand-still, which is truthfully worth the 2 level dip). A few frenzied berserker levels might not have hurt it either.

The stats presented here are assuming you're in human form and merely under the effects of enlarge person. By making use of Metamorphosis from your psionic skin, you can probably push the limits even further. As a final bit, he is immune to effects such as strength of my enemy and resistant to the ever powerful ego whip that psions are fond of using (I know I am :smalltongue:).

Either way, it was fun for me I guess. Have fun fellas. I'm out. :smallsmile: