God Dammit DC

[Seraph]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/02/03/get-ready-for-watchmen-2/

I expect that Alan Moore is going to be renting a clock tower located near the DC editorial Offices in the near future.

[Zeta Kai]

No. No, it's not possible. It can't be true.

No! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Dienekes]

Yeah I read this.

I'm surprised it took them this long actually.

[alchemyprime]

This angers me.

I love Watchmen. Hell, I was ready to beleive it would exist somewhere in one of the Earth's Hypertimes. Rorschach does exist in Earth-22, after all (though the rest of the characters do not), Earth-4 is based on Watchmen and the old Charlton Comics, and frankly, the new Owlman looks WAY too much like Nite Owl.

Hell, I'd even go for PREQUELS.

But no sequel. It defeats the purpose of the ending of the original: interpretation. Does Rorschach's Journal change the world? Does the peace fall through. Most say yes, but on a first reading would say no.

No. Make an Earth-4 series. Let us read of the old school Question and Blue Beetle and Captain Atom. Let us read the stories of the alternate Rorschach in Earth-22, during all the events. But don't make a new Watchmen. Please, DC. Brightest Day was something I wanted. This... this boils my blood worse than editorial errors in JSA or GL.

And as someone who strives to be a great editor, those boil my blood ALOT.

[Tirian]

I'm not convinced that this is heresy, or even so much a bad idea.

Back before there was a Watchmen movie, I would make the argument that the best way to properly tell the story in a film medium was as a trilogy where the first movie was about the Minutemen, the second about the Crimebusters, and the third being what we know as Watchmen but without so many flashbacks. And the first two movies would have been nearly completely new stories about defeating some plot of Moloch or whatever, but it would touch on all of the highlight points that we know from those eras. And that idea really had a lot of traction with people, from relative Watchmen purists (like me) to people who were more familiar with movies than comics. Part of that is that you really needed that much time to tell the story properly, but I confess that I also want to see Silhouette and Dollar Bill performing heroism instead of just being dead people.

Having said that, there is nothing about DC management that gives me confidence that this will be done well. I'd feel more confident if this were to be a Vertigo title, because I'm sure that they'll tell some interesting stories for a little while and then some stupid crossover will have Batman fighting Rorschach or Doctor Manhattan getting a Black Lantern ring or some foolishness like that.

[Rutskarn]

As long as it's not a sequel, I can just about tolerate existing in the same universe as it. Heavens know I won't actually read it.

[Otogi]

No, there must be no squeals, prequels or expansion! There must be stagnation, there must be only one Watchmen! DC will only add stupid, silly things like giant squids and blue energy men who float around boning teenagers and letting their willy hang out! And they'll make it borderline pornographic! Alan Moore would never take his stories to that level, especially when he re-imagines things!

[WitchSlayer]

Grant Morrison is writing an Earth-4 book in the way of Watchmen, but he's not writing Watchmen 2. It's going to have the Charlton characters and use a lot of symbolism and stuff.

[Seraph]

No, there must be no squeals, prequels or expansion! There must be stagnation, there must be only one Watchmen! DC will only add stupid, silly things like giant squids and blue energy men who float around boning teenagers and letting their willy hang out! And they'll make it borderline pornographic! Alan Moore would never take his stories to that level, especially when he re-imagines things!

oh yes, because our complaints are based entirely in superficial and trite reasons and have nothing to do with the fact that watchmen does not need a sequel or that anyone they find actually willing to metaphorically flip Alan Moore off by accepting this writing job likely has no talent whatsoever.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Note this is merely speculation based around the idea that Didio likes it. Didio has been foiled before, he wanted to kill off **** Grayson for example and it didn't end up happening. Then again Countdown was put into publication without (apparently) the printers exploding from the sheer concentrated regurgitated sewage. In related news Quesada wasn't sacked (with a brick preferably) and Rob Liefeld still gets work too...

Be afraid comic readers, be very afraid...

[Starscream]

And here I just defended DC in a thread as the superior of the two main companies right now. That'll teach me to talk.

I can't wait to hear Moore's reaction. I'm always on the lookout for new and interesting profanity.

[Dienekes]

Grant Morrison is writing an Earth-4 book in the way of Watchmen, but he's not writing Watchmen 2. It's going to have the Charlton characters and use a lot of symbolism and stuff.

This is supposed to soothe us how?

[Innis Cabal]

And here I just defended DC in a thread as the superior of the two main companies right now. That'll teach me to talk.

This all happened because of you. For shame.

[KnightDisciple]

And here I just defended DC in a thread as the superior of the two main companies right now. That'll teach me to talk.

I can't wait to hear Moore's reaction. I'm always on the lookout for new and interesting profanity.

You defending the company that gave us this (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2Og08kapNkY/SxNIHvYIJWI/AAAAAAAAEAU/pZrQ_peRtg0/s1600/BlackLanternBatmanRISE.jpg)?

:smalltongue:

[WitchSlayer]

This is supposed to soothe us how?

Because they're probably mistaking that for Watchmen 2.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You defending the company that gave us this (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2Og08kapNkY/SxNIHvYIJWI/AAAAAAAAEAU/pZrQ_peRtg0/s1600/BlackLanternBatmanRISE.jpg)?

:smalltongue:

You are implying that DC Zombies is somehow inferior to Marvel Zombies? I like that pic far better then one about "Col." America complaining about his half his head being gone.

(Besides jerking us around with Bats is nothing next to having the balls to almost kill Bats in the first place)

[chiasaur11]

Marvel zombies gave us Aaron Stack killing zombies, though. And he was awesome at it.

In other words, it weren't taken seriously.

As for Watchmen 2?

I'm betting it ain't happening. No substance to the rumor yet. And, as Doug Adams said, don't panic.

[KnightDisciple]

You are implying that DC Zombies is somehow inferior to Marvel Zombies? I like that pic far better then one about "Col." America complaining about his half his head being gone.

(Besides jerking us around with Bats is nothing next to having the balls to almost kill Bats in the first place)

Marvel Zombies is a side-story.

This is mainstream continuity.

Granted, as a Batman fan, part of my reaction is the sense of disgust that they've just kind of trod all over Bat's "death" (which I didn't like).

But yeah, DC has long since lost any sense of credibility with me. Death is cheap in comics.

[Yarram]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRR RRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
...
:smallfurious:

And that is all.

I for one, believe that we should boycott the sequel.

[Jayngfet]

I kind of expected this from the moment I read this. Remember that "Nobody ever stays dead in comics, except Bucky, Uncle Ben, and Jason Todd." anyone who expected watchmen to stay closed forever was kinds sticking their head in the sand.

I'll probably read it once, stick it on my shelf, and forget about it.

[Otogi]

oh yes, because our complaints are based entirely in superficial and trite reasons and have nothing to do with the fact that watchmen does not need a sequel or that anyone they find actually willing to metaphorically flip Alan Moore off by accepting this writing job likely has no talent whatsoever.

Oh course not, the reasons you have are entirely reasonable for people to start foaming at the mouth at! No writer is better than Moore, or can write a story as nearly as complex; he's stories are all perfect, after all. And just forget the idea that something can just continue or have other stories based on it, that's foolish. Besides, why would a company who has specialized in making graphic novels ever, for whatever reason, would hire talented word smiths and story crafters, say not of putting it on what is considered the greatest comic in history?

Alright, before I go any further, let me just say that I love the Watchmen (who can't, it's one of the most well-thought stories in comics and perhaps within the last 50 years). It's just a great comic all around, and despite what I said, I'm fine with people who reasonably think that Watchmen doesn't need a sequel, and that makes total sense; not everyone wants a sequel, and that's okay. But I know people are going to treat this like The End of Times, that DC has just set fire to an orphanage right after having a baby-kicking contest and it's just because they wanna do a sequel. I'm tired of how people react to sequels like the plague. So, I thought I'd have a little fun this time. Again, fine that people don't like it, just hate how absurdly strong they react.

[WitchSlayer]

Guys, I think you're giving too LITTLE credit to DC. They've made some dumb decisions but they know far better than to do this.

[Jayngfet]

Guys, I think you're giving too LITTLE credit to DC. They've made some dumb decisions but they know far better than to do this.

The old DC regime knew better, and the quotes show that. These new guys think "it was gonna happen eventually, it may as well be us!"

[KnightDisciple]

I kind of expected this from the moment I read this. Remember that "Nobody ever stays dead in comics, except Bucky, Uncle Ben, and Jason Todd." anyone who expected watchmen to stay closed forever was kinds sticking their head in the sand.

I'll probably read it once, stick it on my shelf, and forget about it.

Yeah, I remember that quote.

As of now, in mainline continuity, only Uncle Ben is still dead.

Well, him and Mr. and Mrs. Wayne.

...I'm not holding my breath.

[Jayngfet]

I half expect uncle Ben to show up, using an arachnid motif and with some other spider based powers, but not telling Pete for some ass backwards reason. Meaning Peter Parker gets his angst and the writer "makes the story better".

[Lycan 01]

I like comics, but I don't keep up with them. They're too massive, expansive, and confusing. So all I know is that Watchmen is over.


I didn't really read the article you provided. I was too confused and stupified by the picture of Batman and Rorschach fighting together. Which melted my brain with its combination of WTF and FTW... :smalleek: Anybody want to explain to me where its from, and how on Earth it came to be?

[chiasaur11]

I like comics, but I don't keep up with them. They're too massive, expansive, and confusing. So all I know is that Watchmen is over.


I didn't really read the article you provided. I was too confused and stupified by the picture of Batman and Rorschach fighting together. Which melted my brain with its combination of WTF and FTW... :smalleek: Anybody want to explain to me where its from, and how on Earth it came to be?

Wizard promo piece. Not official DC stuff.

[Zeta Kai]

I just don't understand why anyone would want a sequel. It was a self-contained story. Continuing the plot beyond the ending is a good indication that you didn't understand the meaning of the ending of said plot. It would emasculate it beyond repair. The book's ending is a Schrödinger's cat, so saying anything further would force the reader to accept one outcome or the other, without the option of determining that outcome for themselves. :smallsigh:

Therefore, the only logical option is TWO SEQUELS!! One told in a world where one outcome happened, the other in an entirely separate world where the outcome was the opposite. Considering Manhattan's quantum nature, this actually isn't that bad of an option. :smallredface:

But I would still refuse to pay money to DC to find out what happened next. The concept is anathema to me. :smallannoyed:

[Dr.Epic]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/02/03/get-ready-for-watchmen-2/

I expect that Alan Moore is going to be renting a clock tower located near the DC editorial Offices in the near future.

I just died a little.

[Roukon]

This angers me.

I love Watchmen. Hell, I was ready to beleive it would exist somewhere in one of the Earth's Hypertimes. Rorschach does exist in Earth-22, after all (though the rest of the characters do not), Earth-4 is based on Watchmen and the old Charlton Comics, and frankly, the new Owlman looks WAY too much like Nite Owl.

Hell, I'd even go for PREQUELS.

But no sequel. It defeats the purpose of the ending of the original: interpretation. Does Rorschach's Journal change the world? Does the peace fall through. Most say yes, but on a first reading would say no.

No. Make an Earth-4 series. Let us read of the old school Question and Blue Beetle and Captain Atom. Let us read the stories of the alternate Rorschach in Earth-22, during all the events. But don't make a new Watchmen. Please, DC. Brightest Day was something I wanted. This... this boils my blood worse than editorial errors in JSA or GL.

And as someone who strives to be a great editor, those boil my blood ALOT.

I'm with you, AlchemyPrime. They have done almost every other world in some form, so why not explore it more than they have. At least get some of those otehr Charlton characters their dues.

BTW, love the Ted Kord avatar.

Later Days,
Roukon

[Soras Teva Gee]

I kind of expected this from the moment I read this. Remember that "Nobody ever stays dead in comics, except Bucky, Uncle Ben, and Jason Todd." anyone who expected watchmen to stay closed forever was kinds sticking their head in the sand.

I'll probably read it once, stick it on my shelf, and forget about it.

And one revival was awesome, the other continues to stink up the Bat-universe. I can't condone heresy by an argument of inevitability which itself would manifest merely as a self fulfilling prophecy.

Why would you pay money for it, that merely exacerbates the underlying problem?

[Dienekes]

Why would you pay money for it, that merely exacerbates the underlying problem?

I agree, but the curiosity of just how bad they screw up the Watchmen will get the best of many people.

[Rutskarn]

No, there must be no squeals, prequels or expansion! There must be stagnation, there must be only one Watchmen! DC will only add stupid, silly things like giant squids and blue energy men who float around boning teenagers and letting their willy hang out! And they'll make it borderline pornographic! Alan Moore would never take his stories to that level, especially when he re-imagines things!

There are strange things in many comics. We are not worried that a sequel to Watchmen will be strange, we are worried that it will not be as good.

Also, yes, of course, it is stagnation not to expand on a storyline. That's why nobody appreciated Citizen Kane until Citizen Kane IV: Beyond Kanderdome.

[Lord Seth]

I'm tired of how people react to sequels like the plague. So, I thought I'd have a little fun this time. Again, fine that people don't like it, just hate how absurdly strong they react.People aren't reacting negatively to this because it's a sequel. They're reacting negatively to it because it's unnecessary and quite frankly, the original story was written in a way where there shouldn't be a sequel.

I have to quote Zero Punctuation on this, really:
"Would Romeo and Juliet have been greatly improved by a sequel where they both spring to life and go on a motorcycle tour of the Mediterranean?"

[Mystic Muse]

"Would Romeo and Juliet have been greatly improved by a sequel where they both spring to life and go on a motorcycle tour of the Mediterranean?"

yes. yes it would.:smallamused:

[chiasaur11]

There are strange things in many comics. We are not worried that a sequel to Watchmen will be strange, we are worried that it will not be as good.

Also, yes, of course, it is stagnation not to expand on a storyline. That's why nobody appreciated Citizen Kane until Citizen Kane IV: Beyond Kanderdome.

I thought Citizen Kanes, where a team of elite space marines try to identify Rosebud, was the height of the series, myself.

[Jayngfet]

People aren't reacting negatively to this because it's a sequel. They're reacting negatively to it because it's unnecessary and quite frankly, the original story was written in a way where there shouldn't be a sequel.

I have to quote Zero Punctuation on this, really:
"Would Romeo and Juliet have been greatly improved by a sequel where they both spring to life and go on a motorcycle tour of the Mediterranean?"

Of course, but I demand wacky sidekick zombie Tybalt acting like scrappy doo.

Also they solve mysteries.

[The Tygre]

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...
...

Excuse me...


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/178/0/4/Rage_of_the_Red_Dragon_by_VegasMike.jpg
MY WRATH SHALL BE THE CLEANSING FLAME!


*pant*

*pant*

*pant*

Okay. I think I got it out of my system. For now...

[chiasaur11]

Of course, but I demand wacky sidekick zombie Tybalt acting like scrappy doo.

Also they solve mysteries.

Regular Tybalt...

Or ROBOCOP Tybalt?

Eh?

[Jayngfet]

Regular Tybalt...

Or ROBOCOP Tybalt?

Eh?

Better yet, CENTAUR Tybalt!

[Jerthanis]

RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRR RRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!
...
:smallfurious:

And that is all.

I for one, believe that we should boycott the sequel.

I will buy ten copies, just to spite YOU.

Also, damn, I'd give my left nut to have more written in some media I like, even when they had great endings. I don't like Watchmen, so all I can do is shake my head in amazement that you all are getting a gift and are clawing at the eyes of the ones offering it to you for their audacity.

Should they have stopped writing Superman after Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Should they have stopped writing Batman after The Killing Joke? Nite Owl, Rorschach, Ozzy et al are iconic, popular characters in an interesting world that can continue to inform us about the nature of humanity in our own era as well.

Besides, it's not like the characters and situations cease to be on the last page. In Manhattan's own words, nothing ever ends.

[darkblade]

If this sequel involves a cooperative project with Gainax dying Watchmen to Evangelion I am going to be so pissed off.

That was my idea on how to become more hated that Quesda and Liefeld and Didio had to go and take it away from me.

[The Tygre]

If this sequel involves a cooperative project with Gainax dying Watchmen to Evangelion I am going to be so pissed off.

That was my idea on how to become more hated that Quesda and Liefeld and Didio had to go and take it away from me.

SHH! If you speak it, it might come true! Maybe not hear, maybe not now, but in some horrible alternate universe! Think of the alternate children!

[Jayngfet]

I remember reading that idea.

God damn, with the timelines it's actually perfectly reasonable to assume SEELE took the genetic manipulation stuff, practiced a bit, and a decade or so later they had enough data on creating creatures with psychological abilities saved to third impact in peace.


This would however also cause humans to develop strange mutations as their DNA gets spirally, this is noticed by actual super mental aliens, and we kick off into Gurren Lagann universe.

[Lord of Rapture]

I remember reading that idea.

God damn, with the timelines it's actually perfectly reasonable to assume SEELE took the genetic manipulation stuff, practiced a bit, and a decade or so later they had enough data on creating creatures with psychological abilities saved to third impact in peace.


This would however also cause humans to develop strange mutations as their DNA gets spirally, this is noticed by actual super mental aliens, and we kick off into Gurren Lagann universe.

If that happens, that would be the only thing that could possibly redeem this debacle.

[Otogi]

.
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...
...

Excuse me...


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


http://fc07.deviantart.com/fs7/i/2005/178/0/4/Rage_of_the_Red_Dragon_by_VegasMike.jpg
MY WRATH SHALL BE THE CLEANSING FLAME!


*pant*

*pant*

*pant*

Okay. I think I got it out of my system. For now...

The internet never tries to fail me :smallwink:

[Jayngfet]

You know, they could always stick "elseworld" or some such noncanon sticker on it and make it a separate universe altogether. Meaning fanboys have no actual excuse to NERD RAEG(not that they actually need one), and everyone else can read the comics and see if they're any good(and you know, judge them on their own merit instead of what we think ahead of time) without getting screamed at TOO often.

[Otogi]

You know, they could always stick "elseworld" or some such noncanon sticker on it and make it a separate universe altogether. Meaning fanboys have no actual excuse to NERD RAEG(not that they actually need one), and everyone else can read the comics and see if they're any good(and you know, judge them on their own merit instead of what we think ahead of time) without getting screamed at TOO often.

Good idea, very. Actually going to be used, hopefully. Going be actually marked or advertised that way so that people don't mistake for part of the true cannon, probably not.

[multilis]

Don't worry, it will be a wonderful re-imagining called the Watchwomen, staring Madonna, Sharon Stone and Halle Berry. Can't wait, they all were great in previous superhero movies!

[Otogi]

Don't worry, it will be a wonderful re-imagining called the Watchwomen, staring Madonna, Sharon Stone and Halle Berry. Can't wait, they all were great in previous superhero movies!

This funny, witty, true and signaturable. To be fair, though [INSERT DEFENSE FOR BAD MOVIES]

[WitchSlayer]

I remember reading that idea.

God damn, with the timelines it's actually perfectly reasonable to assume SEELE took the genetic manipulation stuff, practiced a bit, and a decade or so later they had enough data on creating creatures with psychological abilities saved to third impact in peace.


This would however also cause humans to develop strange mutations as their DNA gets spirally, this is noticed by actual super mental aliens, and we kick off into Gurren Lagann universe.

But the DCU already HAS a Gurren Lagann, except it's the Superman Beyond robot.

[darkblade]

I remember reading that idea.


It was probably posted by me then too. I'm quite fond of that idea actually I just wanted to be the one to make it official.

[Prime32]

But the DCU already HAS a Gurren Lagann, except it's the Superman Beyond robot.
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6590/gurrenlanternlu8.jpg
*cough* Green energy made out of willpower *cough*

[darkblade]

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6590/gurrenlanternlu8.jpg
*cough* Green energy made out of willpower *cough*

Not to mention the fact that they could make drills and regularly pierce the heavens.

[Raz_Fox]

Well, I can tell I'm not a true comics fan by the virtue of the fact that my reaction to this was, and I quote:

"Meh."

I am not a Watchmen fan in any way or form, and I have no interest in seeing more Watchmen stuff, but it's no skin off of my nose whether or not they want to pull out new stories.

I agree with Jerthanis. If you want to read more about characters you liked, great. If not, it ain't the end of the world here.

[Foeofthelance]

Marvel Zombies is a side-story.

This is mainstream continuity.

Granted, as a Batman fan, part of my reaction is the sense of disgust that they've just kind of trod all over Bat's "death" (which I didn't like).

But yeah, DC has long since lost any sense of credibility with me. Death is cheap in comics.

Um, wasn't that the point? As far as I remember that issue, (My girlfriend currently holding most of my current Blackest Night books) Batman got rezzed for a few minutes solely to provoke a strong emotion reaction from the other heroes, which let Necron zap 'em in turn.

It was supposed to piss people off.

[Closet_Skeleton]

I agree with Jerthanis. If you want to read more about characters you liked, great. If not, it ain't the end of the world here.

Watchmen has characters to like?

[KnightDisciple]

Um, wasn't that the point? As far as I remember that issue, (My girlfriend currently holding most of my current Blackest Night books) Batman got rezzed for a few minutes solely to provoke a strong emotion reaction from the other heroes, which let Necron zap 'em in turn.

It was supposed to piss people off.

Oh, I know there was in-story "justification".

That doesn't mean it isn't stupid.

For one thing, we all know he'll be back, sometime.

Which frankly cheapens Richard Grayson's status as Batman. What should be an event that gives a sense of legacy, instead is merely something that will keep someone with the Batman suit going until Bruce comes back.

This isn't a reaction of "omg I'm totally with the characters, this enrages me at Necron!". This is "wow, DC has really sunk low. This is stupid."

It's why I havent' bought any new comics or graphic novels in a while. Anything I do buy is generally either outside continuity, or older work.

[chiasaur11]

Watchmen has characters to like?

As odd as it is to say?

A few. Nite Owl I, the shrink, the kid at the newstand at the end...

Not central, but...

[Strawberries]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2010/02/03/get-ready-for-watchmen-2/

I expect that Alan Moore is going to be renting a clock tower located near the DC editorial Offices in the near future.

:smalleek:
WHAT?

How...why...they can't...I don't....

Okay, there are simply no words. At all.



Also, yes, of course, it is stagnation not to expand on a storyline. That's why nobody appreciated Citizen Kane until Citizen Kane IV: Beyond Kanderdome.

Meh. I personally prefer Don Quixote V: return of the windmills.

[pita]

As odd as it is to say?

A few. Nite Owl I, the shrink, the kid at the newstand at the end...

Not central, but...
The shrink is one of the single most sympathetic characters I've ever read.
I think he's a wonderful, well done, fully rounded character. Who's also an amazing person. I hate what the movie did to him, and it's one of the reasons I hate the Director's Cut (it turns him into a prick).
Also, Alan Moore will not need a clock tower. You forget the guy's a magus. He can just curse Dan DiDio's children.

[Dienekes]

I will buy ten copies, just to spite YOU.

Also, damn, I'd give my left nut to have more written in some media I like, even when they had great endings. I don't like Watchmen, so all I can do is shake my head in amazement that you all are getting a gift and are clawing at the eyes of the ones offering it to you for their audacity.

Should they have stopped writing Superman after Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Should they have stopped writing Batman after The Killing Joke? Nite Owl, Rorschach, Ozzy et al are iconic, popular characters in an interesting world that can continue to inform us about the nature of humanity in our own era as well.

Besides, it's not like the characters and situations cease to be on the last page. In Manhattan's own words, nothing ever ends.

Picture it this way Jerthanis. Different stories have an ending that range from hard to soft. This is often based upon the style of writing of the author and the overall feel as the same types of literary devices can be used to fuel these hard or soft endings.

The soft ending is an ending that either begs to be continued (ex. Will Superbatman be able to defeat Jex Jokther's evil scheme find out next time!) or have a definitive ending but leave it open for the next big adventure (ex. every Conan story ever).

The much rarer hard ending has reached a sort of defining moment that to add to it just wouldn't be the same. (ex. Les Miserables II should never be written, ever) Generally if this sort of ending occurs for a long running comic character all that happens is either a retcon or a reboot of the series. This is generally seen as ok. The ending is definitive but people still get their toy.

Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow was a fairly hard ending. Supes got rebooted and everything was ok, people got to keep going with this character they had come to love and everything is hunky-dory. The Killing Joke is not a hard ending at all, but it gives a fairly decent self contained Batman vs Joker story.

Many (I might even say most) of the fans of Watchmen would consider that it has just about as hard an ending as is possible. Any addition as to what would happen next or even to what happens before would most likely tip the balance on the ethical spectrum of who was right. Unless they simply make these characters do completely unrelated missions at which point it has ceased to be Watchmen and is another interchangeable comic series. Now theoretically you suggest you could reboot the series, however while the characters are interesting these weren't long running characters that we tuned in from one adventure to the next, it was a one-shot that said everything it needed to say, rebooting it would be pointless.

Well I hope this helped you understand why many are annoyed by this turn of events.

[WitchSlayer]

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/6590/gurrenlanternlu8.jpg
*cough* Green energy made out of willpower *cough*

Yes, but it's not Gurren Lagann. It's just the Spiral Energy, Superman Beyond robot is as large as entire realities.

[Prime32]

Yes, but it's not Gurren Lagann. It's just the Spiral Energy, Superman Beyond robot is as large as entire realities.From what I've looked up, would that be "The Superman Essence's Cosmic Armor, the Thought-Robot!", which is made out of pure thought and controlled by a fusion of Superman and Ultraman?

[WitchSlayer]

From what I've looked up, would that be "The Superman Essence's Cosmic Armor, the Thought-Robot!", which is made out of pure thought and controlled by a fusion of Superman and Ultraman?

Yes. Yes it would be.

[chiasaur11]

Yes. Yes it would be.

That sounds suspiciously Grant Morrison-y.

[WitchSlayer]

That sounds suspiciously Grant Morrison-y.

What a coincidence! Superman Beyond is written by Grant Morrison!

[Dr.Epic]

I for one, believe that we should boycott the sequel.

Or you could go and just MST3K the movie. I know a friend that did that with Twilight.

[Lost Demiurge]

Let's see, how would Rorschach put this...

Hrm. Bound to happen. Obvious in hindsight.
Stomach curdles like humors in empty eye sockets of staring children's corpses after three days in sun. Was perfect ending. Was fitting ending.

But the greedy and grasping hollow suits, hearts stuffed with dollars and tiny, blackened genitals pleasured by expensive hookers do not see. Their eyes immune to all but their powerpoints, their ears hearing only their boardroom talk, their heads hollow of all but their percieved greatness. They chase after a great man, howling, screaming, pleading for his scraps, and building their pathetic imitations with scabs ripped from the street.

"I gotta eat too, buddy." They say. As if it justifies something. Means something beyond the hollow apology of worthless shells pretending to be humans. Will not see the truth until it is heaped steaming upon their plate, ugly and stinking for all else to see.

Let it come. Will look upon it and laugh. What was first done will never be forgotten. They cannot eclipse or expunge that which has been done before.

They. Can. Never. Change. That.

[Otogi]

Let's see, how would Rorschach put this...

Hrm. Bound to happen. Obvious in hindsight.
Stomach curdles like humors in empty eye sockets of staring children's corpses after three days in sun. Was perfect ending. Was fitting ending.

But the greedy and grasping hollow suits, hearts stuffed with dollars and tiny, blackened genitals pleasured by expensive hookers do not see. Their eyes immune to all but their powerpoints, their ears hearing only their boardroom talk, their heads hollow of all but their percieved greatness. They chase after a great man, howling, screaming, pleading for his scraps, and building their pathetic imitations with scabs ripped from the street.

"I gotta eat too, buddy." They say. As if it justifies something. Means something beyond the hollow apology of worthless shells pretending to be humans. Will not see the truth until it is heaped steaming upon their plate, ugly and stinking for all else to see.

Let it come. Will look upon it and laugh. What was first done will never be forgotten. They cannot eclipse or expunge that which has been done before.

They. Can. Never. Change. That.

Thank you, Rorschach, your opinion is duly noted. Or else it would be if you weren't a provably insane vigilante who sees the world in an impossible degree of moral absolutism and asexuality. If this came, from say, Dr. Manhattan, or maybe even Nite Owl, I think we could take their word for it. From you, though, it's harder to believe or even take seriously, since you are literally the homeless guy yelling in the street that the world will end, and are no doubt saying it now.

[Optimystik]

I admit, I'm a bit divided on this issue. On the one hand, I can understand the fans' negative reaction to this (largely due to alchemyprime's very cogent post.) You don't tamper with a completed work - it is all but impossible to do so without producing something of decidedly inferior quality.

On the other hand, I also see things Otogi's way. There's really no point in elevating Moore or whoever to such deific status that whoever next picks up the mantle will automatically be deemed a failure.

Furthermore, if Alan Moore had wanted the damn thing to be ended, he should have written an ending. I can see how doing that may be missing the point, but the problem with leaving things open to interpretation is that you give the owners of your IP license to go and get it interpreted.

If artists and writers don't like the fact that executives can pick up where they left off, they can feel free to publish themselves or submit their works through Creative Commons instead. That's just how the system works, unfortunately.

[Lost Demiurge]

Thank you, Rorschach, your opinion is duly noted. Or else it would be if you weren't a provably insane vigilante who sees the world in an impossible degree of moral absolutism and asexuality. If this came, from say, Dr. Manhattan, or maybe even Nite Owl, I think we could take their word for it. From you, though, it's harder to believe or even take seriously, since you are literally the homeless guy yelling in the street that the world will end, and are no doubt saying it now.

Yep, that's probably the healthy way to look at Rorschach.

Myself, I feel a little differently then that red text above. I remember reading an anecdote about Raymond Chandler. A reporter interviewed him once, and the subject of discussion came around to the film adaptations that had been made of his novels.

The reporter said something along the lines of: "How horrible the movies are! Aren't you a little upset at how they're treating your novels? They completely ruined your books!"

Chandler laughed, and pointed up at the bookcase. "No they didn't. See those? Those are my books, and they're doing just fine. The movies? They can do whatever they want, won't affect my work badly either way. Nothing they do will change those books up there."

Alan Moore could stand to learn that lesson, I think.

Myself, I welcome new effort in any old property. Nothing's a sacred cow, everything fictional is open to re-interpretation. Worst case, they do a bad job (Indiana Jones 4) and I can ignore it. Best case, we get an interesting take on something already used up. (Battlestar Galactica) Win-win, the way I see it.

[Otogi]

Yep, that's probably the healthy way to look at Rorschach.

Myself, I feel a little differently then that red text above. I remember reading an anecdote about Raymond Chandler. A reporter interviewed him once, and the subject of discussion came around to the film adaptations that had been made of his novels.

The reporter said something along the lines of: "How horrible the movies are! Aren't you a little upset at how they're treating your novels? They completely ruined your books!"

Chandler laughed, and pointed up at the bookcase. "No they didn't. See those? Those are my books, and they're doing just fine. The movies? They can do whatever they want, won't affect my work badly either way. Nothing they do will change those books up there."

Alan Moore could stand to learn that lesson, I think.

Myself, I welcome new effort in any old property. Nothing's a sacred cow, everything fictional is open to re-interpretation. Worst case, they do a bad job (Indiana Jones 4) and I can ignore it. Best case, we get an interesting take on something already used up. (Battlestar Galactica) Win-win, the way I see it.

What about sacred cows? :smalltongue:

I thought that's what Alan Moore already did, which is why he doesn't see the movies based on his book. He just thought "I don't really care how good or bad they are, my stories are meant for comics, so that's what I'll stick with."

[Optimystik]

Hollywood doesn't always butcher literature, either - see also, Chuck Palahniuk, who was quoted saying that the Fight Club movie actually improved on the book. (http://www.dvdtalk.com/interviews/chuck_palahniuk.html)

[Ormagoden]

Hollywood doesn't always butcher literature, either - see also, Chuck Palahniuk, who was quoted saying that the Fight Club movie actually improved on the book. (http://www.dvdtalk.com/interviews/chuck_palahniuk.html)

wow...Can you honestly think of a well done Comic book movie besides Watchmen? Maybe the dark knight...maybe.

The reason the watchmen movie was so successful is they stayed as close as possible to the original story in the comic. Sure they chopped some things here of there but the movie was pure watchmen.

Look at the current comic book movies. They chop current canon and plot to bits they destroy entire story lines and garble the main characters and heroes. (See emo dancing spider man)

The watchmen started an era of comics. The current era of comics. It's an amazing piece of work that changed the comic world. Trying to stretch it beyond what it is...that's like trying to explore the bible for additional content. (That was the best analogy I could think of. I mean no offense to anyone.)

They would have to get a comic writing GOD to pull it off, and sadly, there is no such thing at the present time.

[chiasaur11]

wow...Can you honestly think of a well done Comic book movie besides Watchmen? Maybe the dark knight...maybe.


As good? No.


I can think of one worlds better than Watchmen, if that makes you feel better.

Here's a hint: It's Ironman.

[Optimystik]

wow...Can you honestly think of a well done Comic book movie besides Watchmen? Maybe the dark knight...maybe.

Iron Man, The Hulk (Ang Lee's), Sin City, Spiderman 1, Fantastic Four... come now.


The reason the watchmen movie was so successful is they stayed as close as possible to the original story in the comic. Sure they chopped some things here of there but the movie was pure watchmen.

Look at the current comic book movies. They chop current canon and plot to bits they destroy entire story lines and garble the main characters and heroes. (See emo dancing spider man)

"Current canon" in most comic books is an impenetrable snarl of ongoing storylines, alternate universes, retcons, sacred cows and legacy norms that utterly turn everyone off the source material except those who are already diehard fans of it. If they need to chop all that up so newcomers know what the hell is going on, then so be it.


The watchmen started an era of comics. The current era of comics. It's an amazing piece of work that changed the comic world. Trying to stretch it beyond what it is...that's like trying to explore the bible for additional content. (That was the best analogy I could think of. I mean no offense to anyone.)

How can you know it will stretch anything until you see it?


They would have to get a comic writing GOD to pull it off, and sadly, there is no such thing at the present time.

I agree with your last statement, but not that such a being's intervention is in any way required.

[BRC]

Comic Books (of the Super Hero variety) are generally more about an idea than a story. Many of them are largely Episodic, which allows them to be made into good movies.

Consider Batman for example. Batman isn't a story, it's a concept. Bruce Wayne's parents are killed, so he trains to become the best at everything, dresses like a bat, and goes to fight crime. Now, many stories have been told based off that concept, but the important thing about Batman isn't that Gordon calls him because the Joker kidnapped the mayor's family. You could have a story where none of that happens, and it would STILL be batman.

This is why Comic Books make such good Franchises. Once you have a winning concept, you can do all sorts of things with it. You can do different takes on it, you can put it in different media. You can have a cheesy adventure story, or a dark and serious story. You can make a movie, or a video game, or whatever. Provided the core concept is still there, you can do all sorts of things. Everybody knows what Batman is, but nobody knows the story of Batman, because there isn't one. there is no one, complete version of Batman that is true, there is merely a basic concept that writers can build from.



Now, Watchmen is different. Watchmen is about the Story, not the Concept. If the characters were used to tell a different story, it would not be Watchmen any more than Guildenstern and Rosencrantz are Dead is Hamlet. It's a derivative work, nothing more.

Even if Allen Moore wrote the sequel to Watchmen, it would still not be truly Watchmen, though considering the pigs flying everywhere and the devils showing up all over the world in search of coats and sweaters, I don't think I would have much thought to put into it.

[Innis Cabal]

I thought that's what Alan Moore already did, which is why he doesn't see the movies based on his book. He just thought "I don't really care how good or bad they are, my stories are meant for comics, so that's what I'll stick with."

All the while spitting venom at it and complaining. Moore is an unqestionable ass.

[pita]

wow...Can you honestly think of a well done Comic book movie besides Watchmen? Maybe the dark knight...maybe.

The reason the watchmen movie was so successful is they stayed as close as possible to the original story in the comic. Sure they chopped some things here of there but the movie was pure watchmen.

Look at the current comic book movies. They chop current canon and plot to bits they destroy entire story lines and garble the main characters and heroes. (See emo dancing spider man)

The watchmen started an era of comics. The current era of comics. It's an amazing piece of work that changed the comic world. Trying to stretch it beyond what it is...that's like trying to explore the bible for additional content. (That was the best analogy I could think of. I mean no offense to anyone.)

They would have to get a comic writing GOD to pull it off, and sadly, there is no such thing at the present time.
This is one of those posts that are wrong on many levels, so I'll dissect it one at a time:
A. Watchmen was a good movie. It wasn't anywhere near as good as Iron Man. I hesitate to say The Dark Knight as well, because I'm not a big TDK fan. Compared to the source material, it could probably be considered the worst comic book movie, because Watchmen is unfilmable as a movie. A miniseries on HBO might've worked. It isn't even the best Watchmen possible, because Zack Snyder is not a good director. He's not a bad one, but he's not a director that a project as good as Watchmen deserves.
B. Watchmen was not successful. TDK and Iron Man both far outsold it, despite having less dedicated fan-groups. This is even worse considering that Iron Man went through a horrible time in the comics, pushing away many fans. And Batman's been having a pretty shoddy run as well lately, from what I know. Post TDK, Watchmen was in an ideal state to be an amazing achievement in comic book movies, finishing the move to darker, more intelligent comic book movies. It sank.
C. Current canon in comic books is god awful. It's full of retcons, bad plotting, and Joe Quesada. The movies today have a much better one, that works. Look at Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, and the Nolanverse for examples. Even an emo dancing Spiderman is better than Spidey Retcon.
D. Watchmen started an era of comics considered so bad that Alan Moore stated at least once that he wished he hadn't written it. It was an amazing GN, but I have to point that out.
E. They have many comic writing gods living today. Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller (though I personally don't like him), Garth Ennis, Stan Lee, Warren Ellis, and many, many others, including Alan Moore. Comic book history is pretty brief. Most of the classics were written in the past forty years.

[Optimystik]

All the while spitting venom at it and complaining. Moore is an unqestionable ass.

Agreed - as I said before, he can piss and moan all he likes. If he didn't want them translating his IP to another format, he should have published them himself. People should read what they sign.

[darkblade]

C. Current canon in comic books is god awful. It's full of retcons, bad plotting, and Joe Quesada.

Retcons are neccesary evil of the franchise based comicbook industry. Nor are they anything new or more prominent now than they were in the past. The first noticable retcons among the big two occured in the 50s with the divison between the Golden Age and Silver Age and were in fact more common in the 60s than they are now since they would remove everything that happened in the last three years every three years to allow for reusing scripts.

Plotting, well at least we aren't reusing scripts like we did in the 60s and early 70s. If anything plotting has taken a step up since the Bronze Age, maybe it took a step back in the Iron/Dark Age of the 90s but it's recovering from that now.

Quesada is a peice of work but has nothing to do with DC or Watchmen and deserves no mention in this thread.


D. Watchmen started an era of comics considered so bad that Alan Moore stated at least once that he wished he hadn't written it. It was an amazing GN, but I have to point that out.

You haven't read much of his recent work have you? His work at Image and Wildstorm in the 90s was right there with the worst that Liefeld and McFarlene were sending out into the world and he knew it and didn't care.

Thats not even counting his lolicon porn fairytale fan fiction called Lost Girls.



E. They have many comic writing gods living today. Neil Gaiman, Frank Miller (though I personally don't like him), Garth Ennis, Stan Lee, Warren Ellis, and many, many others, including Alan Moore. Comic book history is pretty brief. Most of the classics were written in the past forty years.

Although since everything we'd call a comicbook has been written since the turn of the twentieth century that should come as no surprise to anyone.

[Fawkes]

If he didn't want them translating his IP to another format, he should have published them himself. People should read what they sign.

I don't think you understand how the business works. Self-publishing just isn't that viable of an option.

[Optimystik]

I don't think you understand how the business works. Self-publishing just isn't that viable of an option.

I understand perfectly, and I do know how unfeasible it is. But unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast. Throwing a tantrum and proceeding to DFE when the Executives decide to use something they paid for just makes him look like a prima donna.

[Piedmon_Sama]

C. Current canon in comic books is god awful. It's full of retcons, bad plotting, and Joe Quesada.

Thus proving there's no accounting for taste. Quesada comes off like kind of an ass in most of his interviews and I really don't like his personal vendetta against smoking, but he is the one that gave Bendis free reign over the Avengers franchise; on the X-Men books, while you can blame the storytelling catastrophe that was M-Day on him, he was also responsible for Grant Morrison and Astonishing X-Men. I personally think that despite one really painful editorial decision (M-Day) and one badly told story (Civil War) the Marvel Universe is in the best place it's been right now in years. Dark Reign has been amazing; if you can't enjoy Dark Avengers, Necrosha and the Siege crossover (which is pretty much four issues of distilled superpower-fight-porn), then you're either a hardcore DC fan or you're just never gonna be satisfied.

Of course I'm not really a Spiderman fan, I can understand if they feel they'll never recover. :p

[Innis Cabal]

It makes him look worse, and fan's of his works more so by his actions. I refuse to read anything else by him or go to another of his movies after his little temper tantrum and his antics on Twitter about denouncing the movie in as many languages as possible.

He's a bitter old jerk.

[Jerthanis]

Many (I might even say most) of the fans of Watchmen would consider that it has just about as hard an ending as is possible. Any addition as to what would happen next or even to what happens before would most likely tip the balance on the ethical spectrum of who was right. Unless they simply make these characters do completely unrelated missions at which point it has ceased to be Watchmen and is another interchangeable comic series. Now theoretically you suggest you could reboot the series, however while the characters are interesting these weren't long running characters that we tuned in from one adventure to the next, it was a one-shot that said everything it needed to say, rebooting it would be pointless.


I just fail to see how Watchmen presents a hard ending in any way whatsoever. The story is specifically an ending which stops right when things are at a balance point ready to be tipped. It's the perfect setup to continue. If I wanted to write an alternate history novel, the hint that Rorschach's journal might be published, disrupting the hard won stability is precisely how I'd sell my next novel.



Now, Watchmen is different. Watchmen is about the Story, not the Concept. If the characters were used to tell a different story, it would not be Watchmen any more than Guildenstern and Rosencrantz are Dead is Hamlet. It's a derivative work, nothing more.

See, I actually disagree with this. Watchmen is ALL about the concept. Alternate History Real World with a darker than black look at the Cold War as a means of examining what we value in our heroes.

That's Watchmen.

It's not the series of kind of boring events that culminated in a dumb climax and then trailed off (my bias is showing), it's a snapshot of history. An "it was actually just about as bad as this... and it could be again". It was so much more than the series of events it contained. With that in mind, how is it at all not just as relevant to the continuing world situation as anything else?

Sure, Alan Moore can be upset that someone's using his political soapbox for their own views, but he's a jerk and I don't care about his poor tender feelings.

[BRC]

I just fail to see how Watchmen presents a hard ending in any way whatsoever. The story is specifically an ending which stops right when things are at a balance point ready to be tipped. It's the perfect setup to continue. If I wanted to write an alternate history novel, the hint that Rorschach's journal might be published, disrupting the hard won stability is precisely how I'd sell my next novel.



See, I actually disagree with this. Watchmen is ALL about the concept. Alternate History Real World with a darker than black look at the Cold War as a means of examining what we value in our heroes.

That's Watchmen.

It's not the series of kind of boring events that culminated in a dumb climax and then trailed off (my bias is showing), it's a snapshot of history. An "it was actually just about as bad as this... and it could be again". It was so much more than the series of events it contained. With that in mind, how is it at all not just as relevant to the continuing world situation as anything else?

Sure, Alan Moore can be upset that someone's using his political soapbox for their own views, but he's a jerk and I don't care about his poor tender feelings.
We're using different meanings of the word "Concept", which is probably my fault, but you have a good point here.


Alright, so Watchmen is not about the story, it's about examining Superheroes in a new light in order to make us think about the some of the assumptions underlying the Super Hero Genre.

If they made another Watchmen that did the same thing with a different story, would it serve any purpose? Do we need another two hundred or so pages deconstructing the super hero genre with the same characters.
Note, I'm not talking about another watchmen-style book, that would be an entierly different story, I'm talking about the same setting, same characters. If they made one of those, could it really do anything Watchmen hadn't done? The Genre has been deconstructed, and then we got the era of watchmen-inspired comics. Do we need Dan showing how the idea of somebody using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to build to catch purse thieves and muggers is absurd. Do we need Dr Manhattan showing us how somebody with super human powers would be unable to hold onto their humanity. Do we need the Comedian burning maps and talking about how you can't save the world by beating up petty criminals and mobsters.

If the point of Watchmen is the deconstruction, a true Sequel would be nothing more than extending a point already made. If the sequel did anything else, would it be a true sequel, or just an effort to milk the name for all it's worth.

[Innis Cabal]

If the point of Watchmen is the deconstruction, a true Sequel would be nothing more than extending a point already made. If the sequel did anything else, would it be a true sequel, or just an effort to milk the name for all it's worth.

Of course this is what it is. Did anyone here have any doubts to exactly what was going on?

[Otogi]

Of course this is what it is. Did anyone here have any doubts to exactly what was going on?

I guess I'm to naive to think that it's just another writer who sees what's going on in comics right now and sees how people perceive comics and wants to show them what they think the word of comics has come to, in it's stories, it's characters, it's writers, it's companies, it's fans, the media based from comics and the state of the world and how it all relates. Yeah, I guess I should have known that Cold-Hard-Cash can only be the true objective. My mistake.

[Optimystik]

Money may not be the only motivation, but it certainly is the primary one. Those executives would have no interest in reviving Watchmen had the movie performed poorly.

That is not to say that whichever writer takes the helm can't do a damn good job - because they can - but we have to go in knowing that this green light was the result of a carefully calculated business proposal, not a revolutionary vision on where to take the series by some other writer.

[darkblade]

Money may not be the only motivation, but it certainly is the primary one.

Money was the primary reason the first one was made. DC had just bought out the rival company Charlton Comics and planned to integrate their heroes into the DC Universe in the up coming Crisis on Infinite Earths but before they did that they wanted to introduce the characters to their readership. They told Alan Moore to right up a concept for a series to introduce the Charlton characters.

He gave them the pitch for Watchmen only with the Charlton characters. They liked the pitch but it left most of the characters unusable so they told him to redo it with original characters and Watchmen was born.

Don't be so naive to assume that it wasn't about money in the 80s when the original was made.

[Innis Cabal]

Don't be so naive to assume that it wasn't about money in the 80s when the original was made.

Its the entertainment business. When is money not the major driving force behind it?

[Optimystik]

Don't be so naive to assume that it wasn't about money in the 80s when the original was made.

I see nothing in my post that rules this out. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to call people naive?

[darkblade]

I see nothing in my post that rules this out. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to call people naive?

Your wording seemed to suggest that Moore made such a good story because it wasn't for monentary reasons but that someone else might succeed even without such motivations.

[Optimystik]

Your wording seemed to suggest that Moore made such a good story because it wasn't for monentary reasons but that someone else might succeed even without such motivations.

Then you read wrong, because that wasn't what I was suggesting at all.

I was saying that just because money is the primary motivation for this project, does not automatically mean it will be a low-quality product. I in no way referenced the original.

[WitchSlayer]

Iron Man, The Hulk (Ang Lee's), Sin City, Spiderman 1, Fantastic Four... come now.



"Current canon" in most comic books is an impenetrable snarl of ongoing storylines, alternate universes, retcons, sacred cows and legacy norms that utterly turn everyone off the source material except those who are already diehard fans of it. If they need to chop all that up so newcomers know what the hell is going on, then so be it.



How can you know it will stretch anything until you see it?



I agree with your last statement, but not that such a being's intervention is in any way required.

We do NOT mention Fantastic 4 in this house. And about the canon thing: You'd think that wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong. Comics are actually pretty easy to get into. All you have to do is pick up a trade paperback for most books, for some others you have to bother to look for a little 1 on the side to make sure you're in volume 1 of the story.

Seriously, the whole "confusing continuity" is one of the biggest misconceptions about comics. I mean, yeah, if you're into that kinda thing it can be a bit confusing, but for most stories it's just "do you know Superman is from the planet Krypton, was raised in Kansas and went to Metropolis? Congratulations! You can now read 95% of all Superman stories!" and the ones that DO have some backstory, it's just a brief look up or, hell, sometimes they have recap pages or reveal it in the story itself.

[Otogi]

We do NOT mention Fantastic 4 in this house. And about the canon thing: You'd think that wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong. Comics are actually pretty easy to get into. All you have to do is pick up a trade paperback for most books, for some others you have to bother to look for a little 1 on the side to make sure you're in volume 1 of the story.

Seriously, the whole "confusing continuity" is one of the biggest misconceptions about comics. I mean, yeah, if you're into that kinda thing it can be a bit confusing, but for most stories it's just "do you know Superman is from the planet Krypton, was raised in Kansas and went to Metropolis? Congratulations! You can now read 95% of all Superman stories!" and the ones that DO have some backstory, it's just a brief look up or, hell, sometimes they have recap pages or reveal it in the story itself.

To be fair, it's less "Superman was born on Krpyton, crashed here on Earth and decided to hang" and more "Professor X died back here (Issue X), but got a new body thanks to a his former lover, who is Lilandra, princess of Shi'ar (Issue XX). Now they are preparing to fight Apocalypse, who recently set his master plans (explained in full detail in Issue XXX), so the X-Men must gather their new members (Issue XXXX) while also fighting the Brotherhood after they suffered a recent fallout (Issue XYX)." I didn't even make this up, this is a paraphrased example of a book of Uncanny X-Men that my dad had lying around. And look at all that, that looks like the recap of a novelized soap opera paperback than something most people associated comics with. Who would want to read all that, and then try to find all the other issues just to understand. Well, most people who are die-hard fans of the cartoons and movies based on them, but it's not exactly "jump-right-in" material.

[Optimystik]

We do NOT mention Fantastic 4 in this house.

Yay, elitism...


And about the canon thing: You'd think that wouldn't you? Well you'd be wrong. Comics are actually pretty easy to get into. All you have to do is pick up a trade paperback for most books, for some others you have to bother to look for a little 1 on the side to make sure you're in volume 1 of the story.

Seriously, the whole "confusing continuity" is one of the biggest misconceptions about comics. I mean, yeah, if you're into that kinda thing it can be a bit confusing, but for most stories it's just "do you know Superman is from the planet Krypton, was raised in Kansas and went to Metropolis? Congratulations! You can now read 95% of all Superman stories!" and the ones that DO have some backstory, it's just a brief look up or, hell, sometimes they have recap pages or reveal it in the story itself.

I'm aware that you can do that - but not many people who aren't into comics already will be attracted by a labyrinthine backlog. And you can't deny there are references and callbacks to what has come before, that will fly over a newer readers head.

This was a large part of the appeal of "reboot" franchises like Ultimate Marvel - in addition to updating the sci-fi for modern times (less radiation, more genetics), they also let new readers feel like they were on somewhat equal footing with the grognards that had been there since time immemorial. Although Ultimate is swiftly approaching that same problem itself.

And to be honest, I'd rather not shell out for something that's going to have me feeling like I'm not "in on the joke" at every third page.

[Porthos]

Speaking of successful comic ==> movie adaptations, I absolutely adore The Shadow. I know I'm quite probably in an extreme minority in my utter love for the Alec Baldwin movie, but there it is.

<Ok ok, The Shadow already has been in upteen different mediums besides comics. It's still an example in my book.>

Another successful transition would be The Phantom. Not as good as The Shadow, but still pretty darn entertaining.

Now to throw some gasoline on the fire. :smallamused:

I found the movie version of V for Vendetta to be highly entertaining and v v good. I've tried to read the TB original a couple of times, but never really gotten into it. So for me, at least, I find the movie to be far superior to the original work.

Heresy, I know. But whatcha gonna do?

300 was also an example of a great movie adaptation. As were the first two modern day Superman films. And for that matter the two Tim Burton Batman films and both Nolan Batman films.

Thinking a bit more, if one wants to go back in time, the original George Reeves Superman films were pretty boss as well.

...

Come to think of it, there have been a lot of successful/good comic ==> movie transitions.

Has there been crap? Of course there has been. But, well, Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law) and all that comes to mind.

===

I'm afraid I don't share the NERD RAAAAAAAGE over the possible sequel to Watchmen. Mostly because (gasp, horror), I don't care about Watchmen. At. All. :smalltongue:

That's not to say I don't understand people getting a bit put out by this news. I felt the same way a few years ago when I heard that there was going to be a remake of the classic The Manchurian Candidate. I was pissed when I heard the news, and I was pretty darn sure it was unneccessary.

But here's the thing. I decided to give it a chance. I went and saw the film in the theaters, in the off chance that the remake might actually be good (the fact that it had many of my favorite actors in it didn't hurt). And you know what?

It sucked. :smalltongue:

Oh it started off fine, but the wheels fell off and and it turned into an incoherent mess. But even though the remake sucked, the original book and movie are still in existence and they are still fantastic. The remake hasn't sullied either of those items one iota. Sure it might be bad that some people out there don't know about how good the originals are because of the crappy remake. So what? The originals are still around for me to enjoy. And, in the end, that's all that really matters.

So, in the end, what does it matter if the Watchmen sequel is crap? It's only a bad thing if you (and I mean the general reader here) let it be. No matter how bad/sacrilegious the mooted sequel to Watchmen is, the original can not be sullied by it's existence.

Unless, of course, you let it be sullied. :smallwink:

Just pretend as if it doesn't exist if it causes that much consternation. It's not as if Geek Culture hasn't had plenty of opportunities to engage in the metal practice known as Discontinuity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Discontinuity). :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

Yay, elitism...



I'm aware that you can do that - but not many people who aren't into comics already will be attracted by a labyrinthine backlog. And you can't deny there are references and callbacks to what has come before, that will fly over a newer readers head.

This was a large part of the appeal of "reboot" franchises like Ultimate Marvel - in addition to updating the sci-fi for modern times (less radiation, more genetics), they also let new readers feel like they were on somewhat equal footing with the grognards that had been there since time immemorial. Although Ultimate is swiftly approaching that same problem itself.

And to be honest, I'd rather not shell out for something that's going to have me feeling like I'm not "in on the joke" at every third page.


Agreed with the second part, the first, not so much.

I mean, a Fantastic Four movie ain't easy, but you could at least not do Doom so incredibly wrong.

He's Victor Von Doom, best villain in comicdom. Getting him wrong?

It just ain't right.

[Optimystik]

To be fair, all the sorcery and ruler of Latvaria fluff was just a tiny bit cheesy.

And does anyone really know what his powers actually are?

[KnightDisciple]

To be fair, all the sorcery and ruler of Latvaria fluff was just a tiny bit cheesy.

And does anyone really know what his powers actually are?

Sorcery aside? He's like Tony Stark and Reed Richards, rolled into one. Power Armor + lots of gadgets. Robotic doubles, time machines, that sort of thing. And lots and lots of plans.

[Dienekes]

To be fair, all the sorcery and ruler of Latvaria fluff was just a tiny bit cheesy.

And does anyone really know what his powers actually are?

It's one thing to tie in powers to make a more streamlined movie.

It is another thing entirely to muck up a great character like they did in that movie.

[Prime32]

To be fair, all the sorcery and ruler of Latvaria fluff was just a tiny bit cheesy.DOOM cares not for cheese! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandfatherClause)

[Tyrant]

A. Watchmen was a good movie. It wasn't anywhere near as good as Iron Man. I hesitate to say The Dark Knight as well, because I'm not a big TDK fan. Compared to the source material, it could probably be considered the worst comic book movie, because Watchmen is unfilmable as a movie.
I wish people would quit saying it's unfilmable. My DVD of the movie disagrees with this entirely. It was in fact filmed. In my opnion, it was quite well done. My only real complaint has to do with the casting of Ozymandias. Even that isn't because I think the guy was a terrible actor. He just didn't look or sound like how I believe Ozy would have. Beyond that, I thought it was very well done. Even the changed ending. Yeah, I would have loved the squid and the entire subplot involving it. But this one works and means the movie isn't 5 hours long (which I wouldn't mind, but let's be realistic here). The only reason people think it is unfilmable is because Moore says it's unfilmable. Personally, I couldn't care less what he has to say because as others have stated he is an ass no matter how good a writer he may be. He thinks it's unfilmable because he has a huge ego.

It isn't even the best Watchmen possible, because Zack Snyder is not a good director. He's not a bad one, but he's not a director that a project as good as Watchmen deserves.
There's a problem with a hypothetical other, better director. Most people of that type like to put their spin on things. That works (sometimes) with a long running series like Batman or Iron Man where there is decades of material to pick and choose from. Watchmen was one, single story. There is little to no room for an adaptation to have "interpretation" or "spin" (that part's up to the audience). There is the story and that's it. Snyder had a near slavish devotion to the material that another director may not have had. I assume most people here have read some of the other "ideas" for how to "update" the story to film it. If having someone who tries to recreate the book comes at the cost of a few beefed up action scenes and slow mo then I will take it.

B. Watchmen was not successful.
This is mostly true. I could argue that it matters how you measure success and it matter what all is included in the budget figures (for instance, is the cost of the Black Freighter/Under the Hood DVD included in that). Personally, I believe once everything is accounted for it didn't lose money (though it was obviously not a smashing success). I would also argue that it had factors working against it that most comic movies don't have to worry about and for that reason comparing it to the others is more or less pointless. Those factors would be:
1) Rating. An R rating can be a hard sell. There's a reason why most movies aim for "no higher than PG-13" and why we have had recent additions to franchises that have typically been R rated that now have lesser ratings.
2) No big names. It sucks, but this drives sales at the box office.
3) Length. Longer movies can be a tough sell. Not all longer movies as LotR shows us, but when you add in 1, 2, and 4 it can dissuade potential viewers.
4) Low public exposure to the franchise. Let's all be honest here, while the book has been praised in non comic formats before, the fan base is primarily comic book readers who aren't a truly sizeable number. No matter what anyone says about the current state of Iron Man or Batman, the two of them have had prior public exposure. Batman is a well known character who has had numerous TV series and a reasonably recent series of movies. Iron Man has had an animated series as well as crossing over on other Marvel animated series and has been featured in numerous Marvel video games for at least 15 years. Rorschach and Night Owl don't get out much, in comparison.
5) The story. As much as the fans may love it, the average person likely doesn't. Or the average movie goer anyway. Most people don't look for serious complexity and serious moral questions from their comic book movies (TDK not withstanding). They like closure. They like seeing the good guys beat the bad guys (literally if at all possible). There are enough people that would feel uneasy at the end of Watchmen who then proceed to tell all their friends that the movie sucks that it will have an impact. Word of mouth can destroy a movie. Number 6 touches on this as well.
6) Advertising. They made the movie look like an action movie. It wasn't an action movie. Generally, people get pissed when they get lied to and tell their friends not to watch the movie. This is why movies that appear funny in the previews but in fact are not at all funny tend to crash and burn very quickly. Obviously in that example it depends on what one calls funny.
None of this changes the fact that it didn't do well, but it should be considered when calling it a failure because these things don't happen in a void and box office is not any indication of the quality of the movie (though unfortunately it is the only real objective measure we have). For the most part, comic book movies aren't really long, they have known stars, they are generally upbeat and have some level of closure, and they are no harder than PG 13. Watchmen was not the typical comic book movie just as the book was not the typical comic book movie.

TDK and Iron Man both far outsold it, despite having less dedicated fan-groups. This is even worse considering that Iron Man went through a horrible time in the comics, pushing away many fans. And Batman's been having a pretty shoddy run as well lately, from what I know.
The fan base is meaningless here. The hard core fan base for any of those is miniscule in comparison to the movie going population. I would go so far as to say the hard core fan base is less than the fan base of the cartoons both had in the 90s by a fairly large margin. I don't follow the sales of and of the books any more, but do any even approach 1 million right now? Both Batman and Iron Man have had considerable public exposure which gives them a leg up on a relative "unknown" like Watchmen. We all know about Watchmen. Joe Blow on the street will say "Ror who?" when you ask him about it (pre movie release anyway). That can have a considerable impact on the box office.

Post TDK, Watchmen was in an ideal state to be an amazing achievement in comic book movies, finishing the move to darker, more intelligent comic book movies. It sank.
Because people thought it went too far. Despite the success of TDK (which could be attributed to factors beyond the movie itself, though I greatly enjoyed it personally) how many saw the claims of it being too dark? The Joker being too dark and not funny? Those questions were out there. For some people they still are. I hate to say it, but in this country at least, there are certain ideals attached to the idea of a comic book movie. A deconstructionist look at the genre set against the back drop of a looming nuclear apocalypse that in the real world everyone believed was all but certain isn't exactly the top thing on that list. I think if we have more, better made comic movies like TDK then down the road people will think better of Watchmen (the movie).

As for comic movies better than Watchmen, I would never put Fantastic Four on that list. I barely put it on the list of comic movies I like. For me, Watchmen is tied for the top with V for Vendetta. Just my opinion though. Beyond those, I would probably round out a top 5 with TDK, Iron Man, and Spider Man 2 (or maybe XMen 2).

Edit to add:
I probably better make a comment on the actual topic I suppose. I'm curious to see what they try to do. I have mixed feelings. I find the prospect of a follow on questionable. Prequels, side stories, etc could be interesting. It would take someone who understand the original inside and out down to the tiniest detail so the new product gels with the original. If it's used as a way to somehow foreshadow Ozy's plan with him doing some other morally questionable things, I won't care for it because it impacts the way people view the original. Likewise if it tries to color the others as knights in shining in armor, it could impact how people view the original. The main way I see to do things without impacting the original would be to follow the older crew.

I will probably pick it up to check it out and hope that it isn't bad. Then again, that's the way I look at most follow ons.

[chiasaur11]

To be fair, all the sorcery and ruler of Latvaria fluff was just a tiny bit cheesy.

And does anyone really know what his powers actually are?

That's the thing about Victor Von Doom. He is over the top. VERY over the top. But that's the thing. He goes way over the top and plays it dead straight.

You tone it down, and you're still left with sillyness, but not the awesomeness. Keep toning it down, and there's nothing left. He's named Victor Von Doom foe crying out loud.

As for powers?

No powers innate. He just has to rely on

1) A suit of power armor with lasers and a jetpack.

2) An intellect second only to Reed Richards, (and man, that burns him up.)

3) A good knowledge of magic in general, up to and including (until recently) yearly duels with the devil for his mother's soul. Eventually, teaming with Dr. Strange, he won. A tad further from the top than in SCIENCE, but still incredibly good.

4) An unbreakable will. Here, he's pretty much tops.

So, yeah. No electric powers in the books.

[Prime32]

Don't forget he has Diplomatic Immunity as a superpower. And so many perfect robot copies of himself running around that there might not even be a real Doom.

[Tyrant]

Maybe they should give Doom his own (well made) movie to help combat those two bits of propoganda that were no doubt funded and written by Richards to help discredit the genius that is Doom.

[pita]

I wish people would quit saying it's unfilmable. My DVD of the movie disagrees with this entirely. It was in fact filmed. In my opnion, it was quite well done. My only real complaint has to do with the casting of Ozymandias. Even that isn't because I think the guy was a terrible actor. He just didn't look or sound like how I believe Ozy would have. Beyond that, I thought it was very well done. Even the changed ending. Yeah, I would have loved the squid and the entire subplot involving it. But this one works and means the movie isn't 5 hours long (which I wouldn't mind, but let's be realistic here). The only reason people think it is unfilmable is because Moore says it's unfilmable. Personally, I couldn't care less what he has to say because as others have stated he is an ass no matter how good a writer he may be. He thinks it's unfilmable because he has a huge ego.

There's a problem with a hypothetical other, better director. Most people of that type like to put their spin on things. That works (sometimes) with a long running series like Batman or Iron Man where there is decades of material to pick and choose from. Watchmen was one, single story. There is little to no room for an adaptation to have "interpretation" or "spin" (that part's up to the audience). There is the story and that's it. Snyder had a near slavish devotion to the material that another director may not have had. I assume most people here have read some of the other "ideas" for how to "update" the story to film it. If having someone who tries to recreate the book comes at the cost of a few beefed up action scenes and slow mo then I will take it.
I only disagree with these two points, really.
Unfilmable: a comic book that's around 300 pages long, with parts in full text format, could be considered unfilmable. It also has too much focus on side characters. It wouldn't work in a movie. If it were to work, it needs to be a miniseries. Look how much was cut out of the movie. You lose a lot of the human aspect of Watchmen when Malcolm Long has a minute of screen time, and the Bernies show up for almost no time.
Director: Zack Snyder is an excellent director for an action movie. Dawn of the Dead is great. I love 300. He's not the right director for Watchmen. For Watchmen, you want a director who can balance plot with action, and that's not Snyder's strong suit. The slow mo was well done, I have to admit. The action scenes in the movie were amazing. The Rorschach scenes and The Comedian's scenes were well done. But the rest of the movie was neglected, and it showed. There was no subtlety to the movie. This movie would've benefited with Christopher Nolan. Or Guillermo Del Toro. Or Joss Whedon, when you clarify that he has no input on the script. Or give a chance to Frank Oz, who can do subtle, and just hire someone to help him with the action scenes, like Marvel did with Jon Favreau. Or a lot of other directors who I don't know, but have created solid movies. One of them must have been a fan. There has to have been a better choice for Watchmen than Zack Snyder.
That said, Zack Snyder clearly loves the comic book. This is one of the most faithful adaptations that could have been for Watchmen. It's much better than it could've turned out if they had given it to a director who didn't care. He's not a bad director, he's just not good with drama.

I agree with what you said about star power. I understood that both Jude Law and Tom Cruise were looking at the part of Ozymandias, and that could've worked really well.
As long as they didn't replace Jackie Earle Haley as Rorschach. Because that is the most inspired bit of casting I've ever seen. The man was brilliant. He deserved an Oscar nomination for that. One of the worst cases of Oscar Snub I've seen. Much worse than TDK not being nominated last year.

[Coidzor]

Unfilmable is a worthless term and should be discarded in favor of more precise language.

[GoC]

No, there must be no squeals, prequels or expansion! There must be stagnation, there must be only one Watchmen! DC will only add stupid, silly things like giant squids and blue energy men who float around boning teenagers and letting their willy hang out! And they'll make it borderline pornographic! Alan Moore would never take his stories to that level, especially when he re-imagines things!

I LOLed.:smallbiggrin:

[pita]

Unfilmable is a worthless term and should be discarded in favor of more precise language.
You're right.
Not feasible as a movie that will be anywhere near as enjoyable or as intelligent as the graphic novel is what I should've said.
But, then again, forums are worthless and should be discarded for rocket launchers.

[Optimystik]

Not feasible as a movie that will be anywhere near as enjoyable or as intelligent as the graphic novel is what I should've said.

An adaptation does not have to be as enjoyable as the source material, in all the ways that the source material was enjoyable, to be a good idea.

Consider Lord of the Rings - the majority opinion among Tolkien fans is that the books were better than the movies. But that didn't stop the movies from being critical and commercial successes, or from introducing droves of people to Tolkien's work that had never even heard of him before.

For myself, the Watchmen movie was my first exposure to the entire mythos (my brother is the comic book fan, not me.) Were it not for that adaptation, I would never have even known Alan Moore's opus existed, much less that it was a worthy and satisfying yarn.

So to paraphrase Porthos - the original will always be there. Getting upset because a new adaptation exists and has the potential to introduce even more converts to the work in question is meaningless.

[Jerthanis]

You're right.
Not feasible as a movie that will be anywhere near as enjoyable or as intelligent as the graphic novel is what I should've said.
But, then again, forums are worthless and should be discarded for rocket launchers.

All the things you mention as reasons the comic is unfeasible as a movie are things that I would have cut for space and clarity in the comic book, were I the editor. Except maybe one or two of those Pre-Manhattan Jon scenes.

[WitchSlayer]

Y'know, thinking about it I don't think Watchmen is Moore's best book. It's his most influential, definitely, but not his best. I think Tom Strong or Promethea are much better.

[chiasaur11]

Y'know, thinking about it I don't think Watchmen is Moore's best book. It's his most influential, definitely, but not his best. I think Tom Strong or Promethea are much better.

I like 1963 and Supreme, myself.

Moore writes lighthearted better'n you'd think.

[Czhorat]

There's something I never understood about the level of outrage this kind of thing stirs up: if you don't like the idea of a sequel or derivation to what you consider a piece of art, what's wrong with simply not reading it?

The argument can be made that re-interprations of prior works enrich our culture. Romeo and Juliet was one example given here of a work of art that needs no follow-up. Perhaps, but what is West Side Story if not a re-imagining of Romeo and Juliet for the modern age? Or The Wind Done Gone to re-imagine Gone with the Wind from a different historical perspective? Would you throw away Neil Gaiman's award winning novella "A Study in Emerald" because it drew on the work of HP Lovecraft and Arthur Conan Doyle?

I, personally, am not much interested in a Watchmen sequel, but I have every right to simply not read it. I'm honestly baffled as to why this isn't enough for what seems like many fans.

[Optimystik]

I, personally, am not much interested in a Watchmen sequel, but I have every right to simply not read it. I'm honestly baffled as to why this isn't enough for what seems like many fans.

I would imagine it's because most geeks enjoy having discussions about those works that are nearest to their hearts. So the idea to Watchmen fans of coming to a forum (like this one) to talk about Watchmen and having someone chime in "Yes, but in Watchmen 2..." would be irksome at best.

Though unparalleled in its ability to disseminate information, one of the downsides of the internet is that it's very hard to completely avoid exposure to information either, even when one wants to. No matter how strenuously a Watchmen fan would label the sequel as Discontinuity, he'd end up with a synopsis at the very least.