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Quietus
2010-02-05, 06:30 PM
I've been mentally toying with an idea I've had for a while now, for a particular NPC in one of my games. The idea is that of a half dragon, unusually large, and physically very intimidating. The problem is, trying to represent him as being *that large*, while he has only the stats of a regular, medium-sized human half-dragon.

I was thinking, would giving an "opportunity cost" of two racial hit dice be fair for letting a character take a size increase? In this case, he would end up with 2 dragon hit dice and +3 LA, but would gain size bonuses to stats, and wings as the result of a template.

For a more moderate consideration, if someone wanted to play an "Andre the Giant" character, would giving them two racial hit dice as an opportunity cost be fair? Humanoid hit dice are weaker than dragon ones, of course, but in the prior example, the stronger hit dice are at least partially balanced by the +3 LA, which a human would not have.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-05, 06:56 PM
Powerful Build(count as large for weapons and +s to melee checks) is appx worth a feat, according to Frostburn. I'd allow it at the cost of a feat, since racial HD are generally viewed as a penalty, not a boon.

Quietus
2010-02-05, 07:01 PM
Powerful Build(count as large for weapons and +s to melee checks) is appx worth a feat, according to Frostburn. I'd allow it at the cost of a feat, since racial HD are generally viewed as a penalty, not a boon.

Jotunbrund, or however it's spelled, gives certain benefits approximating large size, but does not give ACTUAL large size - including the stat increases and decreases that come with it. Though I suppose Jotunbrund would work just as well for the character.

And the idea was that the racial HD ARE a penalty; In this case, they're the "payment" for the boost to Large size. I was trying to think out, and get opinions on, whether two racial HD are worth all the advantages that come with that size increase.

Sstoopidtallkid
2010-02-05, 07:06 PM
Jotunbrund, or however it's spelled, gives certain benefits approximating large size, but does not give ACTUAL large size - including the stat increases and decreases that come with it. Though I suppose Jotunbrund would work just as well for the character.

And the idea was that the racial HD ARE a penalty; In this case, they're the "payment" for the boost to Large size. I was trying to think out, and get opinions on, whether two racial HD are worth all the advantages that come with that size increase.Ah, I was confused by your reference to Andre, who wasn't Large, merely powerful. If you want actual Large Size, I recommend doing it as +1 LA, that seems to be the standard value of it.

Note: This assumes you're just going +2 Str, -2 Dex. If you use the actual 'Large' stat mods, I don't even know where to begin.

Quietus
2010-02-05, 07:11 PM
Yes, I'm talking about the full-on size changes. So, let me clarify :

In this specific situation, is it reasonable for me to give this NPC +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 natural armor, and -1 size penalty to AC/attacks in exchange for 2 Dragon hit dice on top of the +3 level adjustment for being a halfdragon?

::Edit:: As opposed to replacing those hit dice with Barbarian hit dice, and leaving him Medium size.

Runestar
2010-02-05, 07:38 PM
As an npc, racial HD are typically more of a boon, since the cr increment should be less than the LA a PC would usually incur.

According to savage species, large without the reach isn't worth anything. So I think you can just make your npc large without worrying if it upsets anything.

CTLC
2010-02-05, 07:40 PM
use the racial ability of goliaths where they count as large sized when its advantageous to. or something similar.

Quietus
2010-02-05, 07:46 PM
use the racial ability of goliaths where they count as large sized when its advantageous to. or something similar.

Jotunbrund (sp?) is the feat which does precisely that. It was discussed earlier.


My reason for asking this as opposed to simply DOING it, is that while I have no issues twisting the rules as the DM, I will only do so in a way that I would allow my players to have access to as well. This is why I'm not going to just go ahead and make him Large arbitrarily... because I wouldn't allow a PC to do that.

Actually, I might. If they had a really interesting reason...

Kylarra
2010-02-05, 07:56 PM
On the other hand, dragon RHD are really good, so it might be "worth it" to lose some class features for two levels in exchange for the large size.

D12 HD, full BAB, all good saves and 6+int skills is a really nice base.

Hmm, potentially give him 4-5 dragon RHD and ignore the LA. That's a pretty steep opportunity cost in terms of tricks in favor of pure brute force.

Myou
2010-02-05, 08:09 PM
Jotunbrund (sp?) is the feat which does precisely that. It was discussed earlier.


My reason for asking this as opposed to simply DOING it, is that while I have no issues twisting the rules as the DM, I will only do so in a way that I would allow my players to have access to as well. This is why I'm not going to just go ahead and make him Large arbitrarily... because I wouldn't allow a PC to do that.

Actually, I might. If they had a really interesting reason...

I sugest that you throw the rules out the window when making monsters. All that matters is that the creature is of appropriate strength. You're not somehow cheating the PCs - if they wanted to play with that build that's fine, you'd just have to figure out an LA for it if they actually ask to.
Following the rules too closely making enemies just slows you down - they're only there as a guide, so as long as the players have fun killing whatever you make they won't even care if its build was legal (or know for that matter).

Quietus
2010-02-05, 08:15 PM
Giving racial hit dice has actually been something I've toyed with in place of level adjustment for a while, though.

So if I did that, I'd be looking at a 5 HD monstrosity with :

5d12 + 5*con HD
5 base attack
4 base saves (all)
6*(6+int) skill points

+16 str, -2 dex, +6 con, +2 int, +2 charisma
+6 natural armor

Breath weapon 1/day (may see about that feat that would give it a recharge instead)
Standard dragon traits (darkvision, immunities)
Bite 1d8, 2 claws 1d6
Fly speed

And he's smart enough to use these to decent effect? That's ... not bad, actually. I would probably add one level of Barbarian to that. Making him a CR1(barbarian level)+2(halfdragon)+1(2 hit dice), making him a CR4 opponent. That's not too bad, considering at most in terms of equipment I might give him a simple greatclub and a breastplate.. Definitely a heavy hitter though, and I might bump the CR up one point for the HD boost.

Might trade out the flight for something ad hoc, though.

::Edit:: This guy's meant more as an NPC stationed in a particular area of the world, rather than something for them to fight. Well... fight, maybe, but whether they kill him or not depends on whether they can take him down fast enough for him not to get smart and run away, and if that's how that group of PCs rolls. Really, he hasn't done anything wrong, he's just seen as a monster for the crime of existing... and for being draconic in a world that hates dragons.

Devils_Advocate
2010-02-06, 09:09 AM
In this specific situation, is it reasonable for me to give this NPC +8 strength, -2 dex, +4 con, +2 natural armor, and -1 size penalty to AC/attacks in exchange for 2 Dragon hit dice on top of the +3 level adjustment for being a halfdragon?
Plus higher weapon damage and +4 to a bunch of checks (but -4 to Hide). (And increased reach, or no?) In addition to the benefits of the half-dragon template? That seems rather overpowered.

Half-dragons don't actually get Dragon hit dice, by the way. Their HD improve by one step and they get skill points as a Dragon, but not saves and BAB.

You could just build him as a half-dragon ogre. That's got Large size, racial hit dice, and stat boosts built right in, and the creature type winds up as Dragon either way. (Entirely incidentally, I recall the Giant once mentioning that he made ogres into "dire humans" in one setting he ran.)

Even if you don't use that, it could give you a useful baseline to adjust away from. By my math, what you're suggesting seems to be somewhere between a half-dragon ogre and an actual CR 5 red dragon, assuming the elite arrary but before adding the Barbarian level. With the level, I'd call it CR 6.

By "what you're suggesting", I mean this crazy-go-nuts thing you're talking about now where you include a whole bunch of bonuses with top-of-the-line hit dice and still call them less than +1 CR apiece. I mean, including 3 Dragon hit dice easily bumps the Half-Dragon template up to +3 CR, and increasing size a step adds another +1 CR in addition to added hit dice. So the appropriate math is more like CR 1(Barbarian level) + 3(Half-Dragon) + 1(2 hit dice) + 1(Large size) = CR 6.

If you give him both 10 ft. reach and the Flyby Attack feat, he could be pretty dangerous. Then the party had better have some decent ranged attacks.

Is anyone else lost on why Medium and smaller half-dragons don't get wings? It's not like little dragons don't have wings; they can already fly as wyrmlings. So what's up with that?

Person_Man
2010-02-06, 12:33 PM
Half-Ogre is the Large sized race with the lowest LA. It grants improved space, reach, damage, opposed checks, and allows you to qualify for the uber Knockback, Hulking Hurler, and War Hulk, and is +2 LA. Powerful Build improves you damage and opposed checks, plus it lets you qualify for Knockback, and it's +1 LA. Jotunbrund improves your opposed checks but doesn't allow you to qualify for anything special. IMO, they are balanced as written, assuming you know how to use them properly.

ericgrau
2010-02-06, 01:54 PM
A size increase is supposed to be +1 CR, and LA + HD tends to be higher than CR. So maybe 2 LA or HD. Depending on how many books your group uses class levels may be worth more, which means you'd want to give less LA / HD. So 1 or 2.

Cieyrin
2010-02-06, 02:17 PM
Half-Ogre is the Large sized race with the lowest LA. It grants improved space, reach, damage, opposed checks, and allows you to qualify for the uber Knockback, Hulking Hurler, and War Hulk, and is +2 LA. Powerful Build improves you damage and opposed checks, plus it lets you qualify for Knockback, and it's +1 LA. Jotunbrund improves your opposed checks but doesn't allow you to qualify for anything special. IMO, they are balanced as written, assuming you know how to use them properly.

Powerful Build also qualifies you for Hulking Hurler and War Hulk, as according to Races of Stone, they count as Large size for qualifying for feats, so why not PRCs? What's intrinsically different that you can qualify for feats with Powerful Build treating you as Large but not PRCs?