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Zom B
2010-02-06, 10:44 AM
APPLE = Apply Persistent and Precise Look-over, Esse

Amplify Spell [Metamagic]
Your spells become potentially more effective.
Benefit: An Amplified spell has one of its variable, numeric effects increased by one die type. D3s become D4s, D4s become D6s, D6s become D8s, D8s become D10s, and D10s become D12s. For instance, an Amplified Magic Missile would deal 1d6+1 damage per missile. An amplified spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: You may apply this feat more than once to the same spell. Each time you do, add another one level to the spell slot increase.

Ability Shift Spell [Metamagic]
You are capable of changing your spells to affect any attribute.
Benefit: An Ability Shifted spell has all mentions of one attribute (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) replaced with another attribute. If the chosen attribute decreases a target's attribute score, then an Ability Shifted spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level. Otherwise, an Ability Shifted spell takes up a spell slot of the same level as the spell's actual level.
Special: You may apply this feat more than once to the same spell. Each time you do, it does not affect the spell's spell slot for each application of the feat after the first. For instance, you can increase Feeblemind by one spell slot to change all mentions of Intelligence to Strength, and then change all mentions of Charisma to Constitution without increasing the spell slot again.

Cataphract
2010-02-06, 11:09 AM
Too powerful, both of them.

First:
Let's pick an average spell (say, fireball). At 10th level, it would do 10d6- 10-60 damage, average 35.

Empowered, it does 15d6, 15-90, 52,5 average.
Amplified once, it does 10d8, 10-80, 45 average.
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 10d10, 10-100, average 55.

Maximized, it does 60 points.
Amplified thrice (same cost as maximize), it does 10d12, 10-120, average 65.

So it's strictly better even if by a slight margin from empower, and vastly superior to maximization.

Now let's take a powerful spell, like cone of cold at 15th caster level..

Normally, it does 15d6, 15-90, 52,5 average.
Empowered, it does 22d6, 22-132, 77 average
Amplified once, it does 15d8, 15-120, 67,5 average
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 15d10, 15-150, average 82,5

Maximized, it does 90 damage.
Amplified thrice (same cost as maximize), it does 15d12, 15-180, average 97,5

And finally let's take the most damaging spell-disintegrate, at 20th caster level.

Normally it does 40d6, 40-240, 140 average
Empowered, it does 60d6, 60-360, 210 average
Amplified once, it does 40d8, 40-320, 180 average
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 40d10, 40-400, 220 average

Maximized, it does 240 damage.
Amplified thrice (same cost as empower), it does 40d12, 40-480, 260 average

And a side note- it's unusable with the few spells that use d12 (but they're druid spells anyway, and I hate them).

So this feat renders maximized both empower and maximize useless.

The second one is much easier to break:

Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6, +1 per two caster levels. Even a simply shifted spell at 10th CL gives a 6-11 ability penalty.

Empower, Maximize or Amplify it (your choice, I'd pick amplify) and then shift it to Int/Wis/Cha. Tada--- instant spell nerfer. Or make it into Con, and watch the other guy's hit points plummet.

Not to mention what you can do with Shivering Touch with it *shudder*

Analysis: Both are broken.

Anonymouswizard
2010-02-06, 11:21 AM
Too powerful, both of them.

First:
Let's pick an average spell (say, fireball). At 10th level, it would do 10d6- 10-60 damage, average 35.

Empowered, it does 15d6, 15-90, 52,5 average.
Amplified once, it does 10d8, 10-80, 45 average.
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 10d10, 10-100, average 55.

Maximized, it does 60 points.
Amplified thrice (same cost as maximize), it does 10d12, 10-120, average 65.

So it's strictly better even if by a slight margin from empower, and vastly superior to maximization.

Now let's take a powerful spell, like cone of cold at 15th caster level..

Normally, it does 15d6, 15-90, 52,5 average.
Empowered, it does 22d6, 22-132, 77 average
Amplified once, it does 15d8, 15-120, 67,5 average
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 15d10, 15-150, average 82,5

Maximized, it does 90 damage.
Amplified thrice (same cost as maximize), it does 15d12, 15-180, average 97,5

And finally let's take the most damaging spell-disintegrate, at 20th caster level.

Normally it does 40d6, 40-240, 140 average
Empowered, it does 60d6, 60-360, 210 average
Amplified once, it does 40d8, 40-320, 180 average
Amplified twice (same cost as empower), it does 40d10, 40-400, 220 average

Maximized, it does 240 damage.
Amplified thrice (same cost as empower), it does 40d12, 40-480, 260 average

And a side note- it's unusable with the few spells that use d12 (but they're druid spells anyway, and I hate them).

So this feat renders maximized both empower and maximize useless.

The second one is much easier to break:

Ray of Enfeeblement does 1d6, +1 per two caster levels. Even a simply shifted spell at 10th CL gives a 6-11 ability penalty.

Empower, Maximize or Amplify it (your choice, I'd pick amplify) and then shift it to Int/Wis/Cha. Tada--- instant spell nerfer. Or make it into Con, and watch the other guy's hit points plummet.

Not to mention what you can do with Shivering Touch with it *shudder*

Analysis: Both are broken.

From my reading of APPLE he didn't want criticism, so we should stay away from PEACHing :smallbiggrin:

Zom B
2010-02-06, 11:27 AM
Hmm, okay. What if we made Amplify Spell only usable once on a spell instead of multiple times?

As for your second point of it turning spells into caster-drainers, there are already spells that do that, so I'm not sure where my feat breaks things. Feeblemind, Ray of Stupidity, Bestow Curse; these ring a bell?

CTLC
2010-02-06, 11:28 AM
Hmm, okay. What if we made Amplify Spell only usable once on a spell instead of multiple times?

As for your second point of it turning spells into caster-drainers, there are already spells that do that, so I'm not sure where my feat breaks things. Feeblemind, Ray of Stupidity, Bestow Curse; these ring a bell?

you offer them an option to take a feat instead of a few different spells. this seems slightly over powered to me.

Mikka
2010-02-06, 12:25 PM
Hmm, okay. What if we made Amplify Spell only usable once on a spell instead of multiple times?

As for your second point of it turning spells into caster-drainers, there are already spells that do that, so I'm not sure where my feat breaks things. Feeblemind, Ray of Stupidity, Bestow Curse; these ring a bell?

Ray of Con damage, with a bit of metamagic you can reduce any humanoid opponent to near death in a single round. With no save or anything.

DaTedinator
2010-02-06, 12:53 PM
Cataphract, you forget that empower increases the final result of die rolls. So for a magic missile, it wouldn't be (1d4*1.5)+1, it would be (1d4+1)*1.5. So while yes, Amplify is better than Empower for spells where everything is based entirely on dice, but for cure X wounds, or ray of enfeeblement, or anything like that, empower is phenomenal.

That said, many DMs don't play it that way, and regardless, I'd restrict Amplify to only being used once. It does certainly compare with empower, and it's up there with maximize, so I could just take it and effectively have three feats.

Ability Shift is fine, with the sole exception of Constitution damage. I'd just outright restrict Constitution damage, but at the very least you need to make that cost an additional level or something.

Milskidasith
2010-02-06, 12:55 PM
Cataphract, you forget that empower increases the final result of die rolls. So for a magic missile, it wouldn't be (1d4*1.5)+1, it would be (1d4+1)*1.5. So while yes, Amplify is better than Empower for spells where everything is based entirely on dice, but for cure X wounds, or ray of enfeeblement, or anything like that, empower is phenomenal.

Wrong. It empowers the variable effects, not the static numbers.

Cataphract
2010-02-06, 12:56 PM
From my reading of APPLE he didn't want criticism, so we should stay away from PEACHing :smallbiggrin:

I did persistently look over it!



Hmm, okay. What if we made Amplify Spell only usable once on a spell instead of multiple times?

As for your second point of it turning spells into caster-drainers, there are already spells that do that, so I'm not sure where my feat breaks things. Feeblemind, Ray of Stupidity, Bestow Curse; these ring a bell?

That kind of defeats the purpose of metamagic.

If you ask me, what's the point behind it? There's already empower for dealing more damage. Do you want something strictly more powerful, less powerful, or more adaptable?

As it is, it belongs in the first category. To belong to the second category, simply allow one bump up (i.e. one spell level higher for one dice category change). To belong to the third category- well, dunno.

As for the second thing:


Feeblemind is a 5th level spell. Will negates- which is the strongest save in any caster.
Ray of Stupidity- where's that?
Bestow Curse is a 4th level touch spell that gives a -6 penalty to one score. By 9th level, your wizard can give a -5 to -10 at short range with his Shifted Ray of Enfeeblement.


Take our trusty Ray of Enfeeblement, which offers no save at all. Maximize it up to 4th level, same as Bestow Curse, then Shift it. Now you have a ray dealing a penalty equal to -10 or -11 to any stat you want, effectively a -5 modifier.

HP are reduced by five times the enemy's Hit dice (by the time the spell is available, 35 to 60 usually) as well as crippling his Fort saves.

A -10 to -11 disables any wizard without at least 20+ Int, and even then to be totally unaffected he must have nearly 30 Int

DaTedinator
2010-02-06, 01:02 PM
Wrong. It empowers the variable effects, not the static numbers.

Alright, let's please not turn this thread into a debate about this? It says right in the PHB:
...An empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1-1/2 for each missile.)

I've seen threads derailed by this. If anybody wants to discuss it more, make a new thread, yeah?

Cataphract
2010-02-06, 01:08 PM
Alright, let's please not turn this thread into a debate about this? It says right in the PHB:

I've seen threads derailed by this. If anybody wants to discuss it more, make a new thread, yeah?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#empowerSpell

I suppose it had been errataed.

Still, in any case, assuming you fired off, say, 5 empowered magic missiles you'd do an additional 2-3 points of damage for each. So?

Also, by the same argument, a Shifted Ray of Enfeeblement is now even worse.

Zom B
2010-02-06, 01:19 PM
That said, many DMs don't play it that way, and regardless, I'd restrict Amplify to only being used once. It does certainly compare with empower, and it's up there with maximize, so I could just take it and effectively have three feats.

I think I'll keep it usable once, and crank up the spell level increase to at least two.


Ability Shift is fine, with the sole exception of Constitution damage. I'd just outright restrict Constitution damage, but at the very least you need to make that cost an additional level or something.

That's a great idea, just bar changing to Con or make it be the increase. Still, overall I think it should crank up the SL as well, because as CTLC pointed out, why take Bull's Strength, Fox's Cunning, Cat's Grace, etc if I can just take Bull's Strength and a feat and be all set?

Ashtagon
2010-02-06, 01:26 PM
The Ability Shift I just wouldn't allow, for reasons others have noted.

The enhanced damage one, I would allow. Sure, it duplicates other damage enhancers. But damage output isn't really the best use of a wizard's spell slots anyway. And if it encourages a wizard to be a blaster instead of an "I win button" caster, I'm all for it.

DragoonWraith
2010-02-06, 01:45 PM
Maximize is over-priced; I'm not sure being stronger than Maximize is that bad. Empower is often very nearly as good, even though it's cheaper.

Also, Amplify seems like it is a little more random than Empower, which means it should be a little stronger. Randomness favors Team Monster, so reducing it is usually in the best interest of the PCs anyway. I'm not saying that it is necessarily balanced as is because of this, but it is something to consider.

Finally, does it actually say anywhere that you can apply a single Metamagic feat more than once? I'd always assumed you couldn't do that, for some reason... What would double Empower even do? Variable effects times 2? Variable effects times 2.25 (1.5*1.5)?

Dante & Vergil
2010-02-06, 02:26 PM
Well, I personally don't think that Amplify Spell is as strong as people say it is, unless one's DM allowed him/her to do average damage, then it's something to consider. Other than that, I see nothing really wrong with it. With Ability Shift, there are two ways to deal with it. I only wish more meta-magic effects worked like this one, where they can be applied repeatedly.
1. Make it only switch physical stats with physical stats and the same with the mental stats, and if you wanted to switch it from a physical stat to a mental stat and vice versa, the level increase would be two.
2. Just make it a flat +2 increase.
There's my take on APPLE.

Eurus
2010-02-06, 02:31 PM
Ooh -- Ability Shift on Owl's Insight would be so good as to be terrifying.

Raptor2213
2010-02-06, 04:14 PM
APPLE = Apply Persistent and Precise Look-over, Esse

Amplify Spell [Metamagic]
Your spells become potentially more effective.
Benefit: An Amplified spell has one of its variable, numeric effects increased by one die type. D3s become D4s, D4s become D6s, D6s become D8s, D8s become D10s, and D10s become D12s. For instance, an Amplified Magic Missile would deal 1d6+1 damage per missile. An amplified spell takes up a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level.
Special: You may apply this feat more than once to the same spell. Each time you do, add another one level to the spell slot increase.


Didn't I already break this one?
Take, say, fireball, increase from d6 to d8 to d10 to d12. What about progression beyond d12s?
The last time I use a similar feat, I ended up using the spell, Far Flying Flame, increasing it from 1d4/level to 36d6 per level, maximized, doubled (epic feat), and x1.5 (class feature) to deal ~13k damage to a Hecatoncheires (CR 57) at 21st level, no SR, no ST (Irresistible spell, KoK). Note that at 21st level, you qualify for epic spell progression based off stats, not level, and I had the spell slots.

Eloel
2010-02-06, 04:23 PM
Amplify Spell + Arcane Thesis = Ouch

Jota
2010-02-06, 04:33 PM
Amplify Spell + Arcane Thesis = Ouch

That's more of a problem with Arcane Thesis than it is with Amplify Spell.

Also, amplify spell is really just +1 damage per die, mathematically. d6 averages to 3.5, d8 to 4.5, d10 to 5.5, d12 to 6.5.

To illustrate:

Amplified Scorching Ray: 12d8 --> 54
Empowered Scorching Ray: 18d6 --> 63
Maximized Scorching Ray: 12*6 --> 72

It seems perfectly reasonable to me.


Didn't I already break this one?
Take, say, fireball, increase from d6 to d8 to d10 to d12. What about progression beyond d12s?
The last time I use a similar feat, I ended up using the spell, Far Flying Flame, increasing it from 1d4/level to 36d6 per level, maximized, doubled (epic feat), and x1.5 (class feature) to deal ~13k damage to a Hecatoncheires (CR 57) at 21st level, no SR, no ST (Irresistible spell, KoK). Note that at 21st level, you qualify for epic spell progression based off stats, not level, and I had the spell slots.

Given the above, the logical step here is to go from d12 to d12+1, though I think weapons and other things that do more damage from size go to 2d6 (only a half-point increase, although the d3 to d4 in the example is the same). Then 2d8, 2d10, and so on.

Fortuna
2010-02-06, 04:59 PM
Isn't 2d6 to 2d8 a 2 point increase? 2*3.5=7, 2*4.5=9. So once you break the 2dx barrier, Amplify becomes more powerful. Then up at 2d12 (starting from a d12 spell, that's four increases), after your next Amplification you would logically jump to 3d6, except that that's a decrease in average damage, so then what?

Zom B
2010-02-06, 05:00 PM
I revised it from its earlier incarnations that treated it as an increase in weapon size, because going to, say 2d6 makes all kinds of crazy combinations with PrCs that do things like "for every die of damage, add some damage". I stopped at d12 for that reason.

So no, progression does not increase from there.

Jota
2010-02-06, 05:04 PM
Isn't 2d6 to 2d8 a 2 point increase? 2*3.5=7, 2*4.5=9. So once you break the 2dx barrier, Amplify becomes more powerful. Then up at 2d12 (starting from a d12 spell, that's four increases), after your next Amplification you would logically jump to 3d6, except that that's a decrease in average damage, so then what?

I think restricting amplify to once per spell has already been suggested (and it is a good idea), so you wouldn't have to worry about those things you just mentioned. Also, yeah, I gaffed the math, but even so I cannot think a spell that deals d12 (those are for barbarians only outside the realm of homebrew, or so my experience has been).