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Hadrian_Emrys
2010-02-06, 02:58 PM
I've been eyeballing the wording on these abilities, as well as the rules on item sizes, and I'm a bit confused as to what qualifies as a 'penalty'. For example: Due to wording, it appears that powerful build does not allow a medium creature to use large two-handed weapons as the size difference would make it greater than two-handed. Thus, it appears that the only race that would really profit (by default) from that ability is the dwarf as they could then wield a large dwarven war axe as a large, two-handed martial weapon for 2d8+1.5str/x3. If this is accurate, it also means that using weps with either ability disqualifies one from using the weapon finesse feat. Have I caught a case of the dumb, or is this really how the rules work?

Cieyrin
2010-02-06, 03:05 PM
I've been eyeballing the wording on these abilities, as well as the rules on item sizes, and I'm a bit confused as to what qualifies as a 'penalty'. For example: Due to wording, it appears that powerful build does not allow a medium creature to use large two-handed weapons as the size difference would make it greater than two-handed. Thus, it appears that the only race that would really profit (by default) from that ability is the dwarf as they could then wield a large dwarven war axe as a large, two-handed martial weapon for 2d8+1.5str/x3. If this is accurate, it also means that using weps with either ability disqualifies one from using the weapon finesse feat. Have I caught a case of the dumb, or is this really how the rules work?

The text in Powerful Build means expressly that you can wield larger weapons without penalty, which I assume trumps the whole different sizes makes for different handedness. So a Large Battleaxe is still one-handed for a Powerfully built person. At least that's my perspective according to RAI and RAMS.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-02-06, 03:10 PM
I agree with you 100% on that being how it should work with RAI. However, RAW potentially tells a different story. I'm pretty sure there is a cite-able example to use for the RAI outcome, but I have yet to find it.

Edit: I'm an idiot. The half giant monster entry has the beast using a large greatsword. I suppose this means that Half-Minotaur Kobold Rogues are only two feats away from rocking out with elven thinblades at 1d8+str/15-20x2 and 1d6+.5str/15-20x2.

FishAreWet
2010-02-06, 03:13 PM
Large weapons don't exist. Update to 3.5.

Siosilvar
2010-02-06, 03:15 PM
Large weapons don't exist. Update to 3.5.

Fail. A Large weapon is made for a Large wielder. For example, a Large longsword does 2d6 slashing damage and has a 19-20/x2 crit. Just because it is mechanically identical to the greatsword does not mean it is the same weapon.

FishAreWet
2010-02-06, 03:18 PM
Fail. A Large weapon is made for a Large wielder. For example, a Large longsword does 2d6 slashing damage and has a 19-20/x2 crit. Just because it is mechanically identical to the greatsword does not mean it is the same weapon.

It's a two handed weapon made for a large wielder.

It's not a Large weapon.

Cieyrin
2010-02-06, 03:25 PM
It's a two handed weapon made for a large wielder.

It's not a Large weapon.

How about you read the PHB, maybe? Weapon size is right here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize).

Large weapons run the gamut of sizes from Small to Large, depending on their handedness. A Large greatsword would be Large, while a Large shortsword is actually a Small object.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-02-06, 03:29 PM
What FishAreWet is probably referring to, is the fact that, in 3.0, a light weapon would be called "small," a longsword "medium," and a greatsword "large" for a medium sized creature. Come 3.5, that changed. Do these items still have sizes? Yes, but they are separate from the "size" they had in 3.0.

The easiest example of this would be looking in Arms and Equipment at the fullblade, which is basically a bastard sword for large characters that medium sized people can wield with an EWP. It's listed as being "huge."

Cieyrin
2010-02-06, 03:37 PM
What FishAreWet is probably referring to, is the fact that, in 3.0, a light weapon would be called "small," a longsword "medium," and a greatsword "large" for a medium sized creature. Come 3.5, that changed. Do these items still have sizes? Yes, but they are separate from the "size" they had in 3.0.

The easiest example of this would be looking in Arms and Equipment at the fullblade, which is basically a bastard sword for large characters that medium sized people can wield with an EWP. It's listed as being "huge."

Probably. Do note that A&EG is also 3.0, so they use the 3.0 weapon size system, which I think was a bit easier to deal with than in 3.5, honestly.

FishAreWet
2010-02-06, 03:39 PM
What FishAreWet is probably referring to, is the fact that, in 3.0, a light weapon would be called "small," a longsword "medium," and a greatsword "large" for a medium sized creature. Come 3.5, that changed. Do these items still have sizes? Yes, but they are separate from the "size" they had in 3.0.

The easiest example of this would be looking in Arms and Equipment at the fullblade, which is basically a bastard sword for large characters that medium sized people can wield with an EWP. It's listed as being "huge."

Yes, that is what I'm referring too.

Hadrian_Emrys
2010-02-06, 03:50 PM
Hostility aside, it would appear that this is well and truly a rare occasion in which RAW and RAI are actually one and the same as far as Powerful Build is concerned. Now I have to wonder about Slight Build giving one the option to freely wield a smaller weapon with the easier handedness. I would adore it ever so much if Kobold Rogues had the ability to dual wield rapiers (one small, one tiny) without penalty.

Cieyrin
2010-02-06, 04:12 PM
Hostility aside, it would appear that this is well and truly a rare occasion in which RAW and RAI are actually one and the same as far as Powerful Build is concerned. Now I have to wonder about Slight Build giving one the option to freely wield a smaller weapon with the easier handedness. I would adore it ever so much if Kobold Rogues had the ability to dual wield rapiers (one small, one tiny) without penalty.

That seems like it would work, as Slight Build uses the same wording as Powerful Build does. I assume it would follow as well.