Build Optimization: CW Samurai?

[storybookknight]

So, we all agree that the Complete Warrior Samurai is the worst full-BAB PC class in 3.5, and arguably the worst PC class in 3.5 from a mechanical standpoint (barring the truenamer,) right? Wizards has since mostly pretended that the Samurai doesn't exist and relegated it to the halls of oblivion.

But, in all the various sourcebooks, might there be a build that capitalizes on the Samurai's meager abilities and makes it, if not powerful, at least viable in a typical party? I don't own Complete Scoundrel, so I have no idea if the Samurai's mass intimidate checks have any synergy with intimidate skill tricks, but it's something to consider, maybe?

I would like to see whatever builds the people on the GITP boards might have to offer, with more points and cookies awarded to whoever has the most levels of Samurai in the build.

[SurlySeraph]

Indeed. There was a build, made by Shneeky if I remember right, that used intimidation-based feats to make a Samurai that could automatically immobilize anything that couldn't make a DC42 level check.

EDIT: The crucial components were the Imperious Command feat (DotU) and the Frightful Fearsome armor enhancement that lets you intimidate as a move action.

[Optimystik]

Say what you want about the Truenamer, but he can definitely beat a CW Samurai in a cage match. Though whether they can handle a CR-appropriate encounter (even working together) is another story :smalltongue:

But I digress.

What can the CW Samurai do that a fighter can't? Well, Diplomacy and Sense Motive are in-class. Diplomancer?

To really optimize their scariness, you'll need Drow of the Underdark (specifically, Imperious Command (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=2) and the Fearsome Armor enhancement.) And you'll probably want to "fall" into Ronin at some point in their career.

[Pluto]

But, in all the various sourcebooks, might there be a build that capitalizes on the Samurai's meager abilities and makes it, if not powerful, at least viable in a typical party?
It used to be a solid level 1 for gishes. Back when Raumathari Battlemages (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030413c) were the best Fighter-Wizards around. It still works just fine in qualifying for that PrC.

A 1-level dip in Samurai followed by a 1-level dip in Exotic Weapon Master has a place in certain Warblade builds (for micromanaging Stance placement).

And there's Mass Staredown, which is kind of useful for that small window between level 10, when you can first get it, and the point where Mind Blanks start showing up on everybody.

Its greatest use is swapping levels out for Ronin levels, which are actually pretty okay (built-in Shock Trooper, Sneak Attack, other kind-of fun stuff).

Also, I believe it's one of the few classes that neatly packages the Kensai's prerequisite skills. And Kensai isn't a bad class.

[sonofzeal]

Samurais profit from Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6749730&postcount=39) better than almost any other full-BAB class. Also, due to fear-stacking rules, Mass Staredown can become terrifyingly powerful if really optimized. And both tricks synergize strongly.


The Samurai class is not useless. At low-mid levels it loses out to Fighter heavily, but at mid-high levels it starts gaining things that only it can do, and becomes actually effective at them. Sadly, it's still not that great at hitting people with swords, but I think we all realize that hitting people with swords is generally a sub-par combat strategy in general, and the Samurai has better ones available in the form of Staredown-Lockdown.

[KellKheraptis]

Doc Rock had a CW Samurai that was roughly Tier 2 or Tier 3 IIRC.

[Soranar]

Samurai isn't that bad, it's just not very good. But I love a challenge so I'll do what I can. Your point should be to fulfill a role , and do it well.

So let's see what we're working with first.

Free TWF, no dex or armor requirement + quick draw.

Not bad, you get 4 feats for free but you can't choose your weapons. So looks like we're using a bastard sword and a short sword.

Kiai Smite + improved initiative

basically divine might for free and another free feat, again not bad

The whole intimidate thing

Mostly useless, you lack the skillpoints to waste in intimidate, it doesn't work on half the things you'll face and most of the time you should just not bother.
You could try making a build solely based on it but I wouldn't recommend it.

So in short your first 16 levels give you something decent, the rest are pointless. You could also ignore the last part of the TWF tree and class out at level 11 or 12.

I see 2 options to take with this build. The first uses Tome of Battle, the second doesn't. With Tome of Battle, make a ranged throwing build. Take point blank shot, precise shot and brutal throw. Use Martial feats to get the requirements (or multiclass) and then throw your weapons. With weapon specialization: ranged slashing, you can throw your swords at 30 ft and they return to you. Samurai 12, Bloodstorm blade 8.

The second would be this:

Race: Human
Alignment : Lawful good

Template: Dragonborn of bahamut to get +2 Con, -2 Dex and flight

STATS (28 pts buy)

STR 14
DEX 6
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 18 (main stat)

1 Samurai Power attack,Blindfight
2 Paladin
3 Paladin Mage-slayer
4 Paladin
5 Paladin
6 Samurai Divine might
7 Samurai
8 Samurai
9 Samurai Pierce Magical concealment
10 Samurai
11 Samurai
12 SamuraiTravel Devotion (burn turn undeads for more uses if needed)
13 Samurai
14 Samurai
15 Samurai Pierce Magical Protection
16 Samurai
17 Samurai
18 Samurai Force of personality
19 Samurai
20 Samurai

You get decent damage, decent saves (paladin), decent AC , flight and multiple travel devotions (pounce) from turn undead.

[sonofzeal]

Mostly useless, you lack the skillpoints to waste in intimidate, it doesn't work on half the things you'll face and most of the time you should just not bother.
You could try making a build solely based on it but I wouldn't recommend it.
Highly disagree.

1) You don't have many skillpoints, but you don't have much need for skillpoints either. Intimidate isn't a major investment.

2) It works on quite a lot of things, especially other humanoids. Most campaigns I've been in have had more humanoid opponents than monsters, so I wouldn't worry too much about this. Beyond that, immunity to Mind-Affecting blocks it, but bonuses to saves don't help as Demoralize doesn't provide a saving throw, only an opposed check.

3) Fear stacking rules are nasty nasty buggers. Once you get Demoralize as a move or swift, you can start exploiting that. "Shaken" doesn't mean much, but "half the enemies fleeing in terror" does. It becomes an at-will nonmagical AoE SoL with no actual saving throw, and if that phrase doesn't peak an optimizer's ears, I don't know what will.

4) You don't need to put the whole build around it. Most stuff that helps it also helps your Smite and your Perform: Weapon Drill, both of which have some effective uses. You don't lose much, and what you gain is potentially very effective.

[The Glyphstone]

Where's the decent damage coming from? 1d10+Str and 1d6+1/2 Str is miniscule at level 20, and you have no Shock Trooper, or even Power Attack. You only get 3 Smites per day, so if you spent all of them in a single turn, your damage (assuming a +6 Str item and two +5 weapons) would be:

1d10+10 (+28 to hit)
1d10+10 (+23 to hit)
1d10+10 (+18 to hit)
1d10+10 (+13 to hit)
1d6+7 (+28 to hit)
1d6+7 (+25 to hit)
1d6+7 (+18 to hit)

A Kai Smite (assuming a +6 Cha item) would add +7 to hit and +7 to damage, 3/day.

Balor has AC35. Very Old Red Dragon has AC36. Titan has AC38. Against the weakest of these, the Balor, two attacks hits on a 7, two on a 12, two on a 17, one on a 20. Ignoring the Balor's DR15/cold iron and good, you're still doing 60ish damage with one full attack on average.

[Amphetryon]

Note that you can trade CW Samurai class levels 1 for 1 for Ronin levels, just as you can with Paladin and Blackguard. This means you can be Samurai 10/Ronin 1 or, Samurai 1/Ronin 10. Banzai Charge and 4d6 SA, anyone? From here you can go Exotic Weapon Master, since you've got an EWP for free, and several flavorful choices to finish out your progression.

[Soranar]

Highly disagree.

1) You don't have many skillpoints, but you don't have much need for skillpoints either. Intimidate isn't a major investment.

2) It works on quite a lot of things, especially other humanoids. Most campaigns I've been in have had more humanoid opponents than monsters, so I wouldn't worry too much about this. Beyond that, immunity to Mind-Affecting blocks it, but bonuses to saves don't help as Demoralize doesn't provide a saving throw, only an opposed check.

3) Fear stacking rules are nasty nasty buggers. Once you get Demoralize as a move or swift, you can start exploiting that. "Shaken" doesn't mean much, but "half the enemies fleeing in terror" does. It becomes an at-will nonmagical AoE SoL with no actual saving throw, and if that phrase doesn't peak an optimizer's ears, I don't know what will.

4) You don't need to put the whole build around it. Most stuff that helps it also helps your Smite and your Perform: Weapon Drill, both of which have some effective uses. You don't lose much, and what you gain is potentially very effective.

Anything undead is immune to fear, constructs are immune to fear, a lot of humanoid classes are also immune to fear, dragons are immune to fear, the list goes on and on and on.

[Foryn Gilnith]

a lot of humanoid classes are also immune to fear, dragons are immune to fear, the list goes on and on and on.

Citations, please,
Which classes are immune to fear?
Where does it say dragons are immune to fear?
Where is the rest of the list?

[Pluto]

You get decent damage, decent saves (paladin), decent AC , flight and multiple travel devotions (pounce) from turn undead.

I think you can do much better with just a few tweaks.

First, trade in 10 Samurai levels for 10 Ronin levels.
Suddenly, between full 2-handed Power Attack on standard action attacks and 1-handed PA+2(4d6 SA+Cha+Weapon) on full-round attacks, you'll massively improve your damage output.

Next, try swapping for the Paladin of Tyranny variant. It fits the Ronin fluff and makes you a valuable party asset just by standing around.

Sprinkle in some of the standard Intimidate boosters (Imperious Command+Fearsome Armor) and you become a much more powerful debuffer on top of being a real melee threat.

Make heavy use of Quickdraw in conjunction with multiple weapons with wand chambers. Maybe even drop Travel Devotion in favor of a few wands of Knight's Move and the Craven feat.

...I think that would actually be a pretty solid build in most games. Maybe not high-optimization settings, but definitely good enough for most tables.

[Soranar]

Where's the decent damage coming from? 1d10+Str and 1d6+1/2 Str is miniscule at level 20, and you have no Shock Trooper, or even Power Attack. You only get 3 Smites per day, so if you spent all of them in a single turn, your damage (assuming a +6 Str item and two +5 weapons) would be:

1d10+10 (+28 to hit)
1d10+10 (+23 to hit)
1d10+10 (+18 to hit)
1d10+10 (+13 to hit)
1d6+7 (+28 to hit)
1d6+7 (+25 to hit)
1d6+7 (+18 to hit)

A Kai Smite (assuming a +6 Cha item) would add +7 to hit and +7 to damage, 3/day.

Balor has AC35. Very Old Red Dragon has AC36. Titan has AC38. Against the weakest of these, the Balor, two attacks hits on a 7, two on a 12, two on a 17, one on a 20. Ignoring the Balor's DR15/cold iron and good, you're still doing 60ish damage with one full attack on average.

First you forgot divine might.

Second you forgot my actual Charisma score would be 29.

Cha 18, + 5 from leveling up, +6 from item = 29 = +9 to damage
divine might does the same thing so another +9 to damage (you also get a lot more of those than kiai I know)

And +9 to all saves isn't too shabby either.

+ 18 to damage (static) isn't great , but it is useful. I never said this was the ultimate build, I said it was playable.

You get +9 (CHA) to your UMD + 10 (skill) from it being a cross-class skill, thats a score of 19 so you can use just about anything you want. (2x skillpoints -1 from int +1 from human)

And you should at least have 8 attacks with haste.

Add pumps like greater heroism, a maxed out bard music, and you extra attacks are starting to look useful.

With this in mind, and some pumping(items or UMD), you can get a decent (not insane) damage output. I didn't think using power attack was optimal with a TWF build. It's just required for divine might which is much better than kiai smite.

And yeah, I agree, a Samurai facing a Balor alone would have quite a fight on his hands, which is why you have a party.

[Soranar]

I think you can do much better with just a few tweaks.

First, trade in 10 Samurai levels for 10 Ronin levels.
Suddenly, between full 2-handed Power Attack on standard action attacks and 1-handed PA+2(4d6 SA+Cha+Weapon) on full-round attacks, you'll massively improve your damage output.

Next, try swapping for the Paladin of Tyranny variant. It fits the Ronin fluff and makes you a valuable party asset just by standing around.

Sprinkle in some of the standard Intimidate boosters (Imperious Command+Fearsome Armor) and you become a much more powerful debuffer on top of being a real melee threat.

Make heavy use of Quickdraw in conjunction with multiple weapons with wand chambers. Maybe even drop Travel Devotion in favor of a few wands of Knight's Move and the Craven feat.

...I think that would actually be a pretty solid build in most games. Maybe not high-optimization settings, but definitely good enough for most tables.

I thought the point was actually playing a samurai. A ronin is great but thats like saying a blackguard is a paladin.

[absolmorph]

Citations, please,
Which classes are immune to fear?
Where does it say dragons are immune to fear?
Where is the rest of the list?
Paladin.
Dragons are immune to Fearful Presence, but are still subject to fear, IIRC.

[Pluto]

I thought the point was actually playing a samurai. A ronin is great but thats like saying a blackguard is a paladin.
But Ronin is the best part of Samurai!

edit:
And Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is the strongest level a core Paladin has!
:smalltongue:

[Soranar]

Citations, please,
Which classes are immune to fear?
Where does it say dragons are immune to fear?
Where is the rest of the list?

My bad, dragons are only immune to other dragons' frightful presence, getting mixed up with old editions. They would actually have to cast immunity to fear from their sorcerer spells.

Classes immune to fear :

Paladin, Binder, unshakable Barbarian, any spellcasting class with the proper spell, prestige classes that grant you immunities, templates

I probably forget a lot of them

Nevermind magic items

[Runestar]

There are spells which can grant fear immunity. But I think if your DM has every npc consuming a heroes' feast in the morning prior to fighting you, it is time to roll up a new character or find a new DM. :smallyuk:

[Soranar]

at higher levels , immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is not exactly trying to counter you specifically, it's just common sense

[DJDizzy]

There are spells which can grant fear immunity. But I think if your DM has every npc consuming a heroes' feast in the morning prior to fighting you, it is time to roll up a new character or find a new DM. :smallyuk:

Pretty hard to find new DM's when there is noone around you, save for 1 bad one eh? Anyhoo, some (all) of my dnd associates (and they remain that) are saying that the samurai is quote "As good as the monk, and the monk is really OP by default"

But yeah, Ronin>Samurai imho

[Flickerdart]

Pretty hard to find new DM's when there is noone around you, save for 1 bad one eh? Anyhoo, some (all) of my dnd associates (and they remain that) are saying that the samurai is quote "As good as the monk, and the monk is really OP by default"

But yeah, Ronin>Samurai imho
Proceed to handily defeat his Monks with every single other class.

[Runestar]

at higher levels , immunity to mind-affecting spells and effects is not exactly trying to counter you specifically, it's just common sense

Only undead and plant types are expressly immune to mind-affecting effects. The rest involve very campaign-specific feats. Mindblank would be available only to high lv spellcasters. The rest are still vulnerable, and the samurai should be able to crank his intimidate score up to high lvs with reasonable effort/gear.

Unless the DM favours these few types a lot, you should still be able to affect a good majority of the foes you face.

[Mongoose87]

Pretty hard to find new DM's when there is noone around you, save for 1 bad one eh? Anyhoo, some (all) of my dnd associates (and they remain that) are saying that the samurai is quote "As good as the monk, and the monk is really OP by default"

But yeah, Ronin>Samurai imho

What the heck is OP "by default?"

[Pluto]

Anyhoo, some (all) of my dnd associates (and they remain that) are saying that the samurai is quote "As good as the monk, and the monk is really OP by default"

You inspired me to make a campaign centered around a high-stakes footrace.

I think I can make this work.

[lsfreak]

What the heck is OP "by default?"

According to some people I know, it's that they get more attacks in a round than the statted gods can get. What's even sadder is that these people are otherwise extraordinarily rational thinkers and debaters.

[Tavar]

According to some people I know, it's that they get more attacks in a round than the statted gods can get. What's even sadder is that these people are otherwise extraordinarily rational thinkers and debaters.

Do they not look at the monster manuals? I'm pretty sure that there are alot of monsters that break that rule as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One little detail:

Read the Intimidate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm) skill very carefully. Look at the list of 'immune'. Mind-Affecting is *NOT* on there.


A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.

I see nothing about mind-affecting being in there. It's a skill check. Just like Diplomancy is non-mind-affecting, so too is Intimidate.

So... you have to worry about Paladins and mindless things like non-intelligent undead and oozes. Everyone else? Well, make a DC 48 Level check + Wis Mod + resist fear mods. At level 13. Good luck with that.

Build located Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726).

[PhoenixRivers]

I see nothing about mind-affecting being in there. It's a skill check. Just like Diplomancy is non-mind-affecting, so too is Intimidate.

Check again.

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Creature Types immune to mind-affecting abilities (explicit SRD Text):
Constructs
Oozes
Plants
Undead
Vermin

Spells that grant immunity:
Mind Blank
Hero's Feast
Polymorph
Shapechange
PaO
(Others)

Classes have been listed as well, and items exist.

In other words? It is effective when it works, but is not reliable enough to be a sole tactic. Especially since any immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities? Turns off your primary attack. And a 4th level spell can give that to you.

I guess that puts fear dedication on par with grappling.

[JaronK]

A CW Samurai is relatively easy to optimize... Imperious Command so you can AoE fear people, and then the usual Power Attack/Shock Trooper stuff for damage. Consider CW Samurai 10/Zhentarium Fighter 10 as a reasonably solid build. Sure, fear doesn't work on everything, but Power Attack generally works where fear doesn't.

Of course, Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair give better versions of the Samurai 10 ability, so Zhentarium Fighter 9/Dread Pirate 5 is better, but it's still viable enough to be a Samurai if you want to.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Check again.


Creature Types immune to mind-affecting abilities (explicit SRD Text):
Constructs
Oozes
Plants
Undead
Vermin

Spells that grant immunity:
Mind Blank
Hero's Feast
Polymorph
Shapechange
PaO
(Others)

Classes have been listed as well, and items exist.

In other words? It is effective when it works, but is not reliable enough to be a sole tactic. Especially since any immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities? Turns off your primary attack. And a 4th level spell can give that to you.

I guess that puts fear dedication on par with grappling.

Close, but no cigar.


Fear

Spells, magic items, and certain monsters can affect characters with fear. If a fear effect allows a saving throw, it is a Will save (DC 10 + ½ fearsome creature’s racial HD + creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects. A failed roll usually means that the character is shaken, frightened, or panicked.

Fear effects are cumulative. A shaken character who is made shaken again becomes frightened, and a shaken character who is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened character who is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
Fear Aura (Su)

The use of this ability is a free action. The aura can freeze an opponent (such as a mummy’s despair) or function like the fear spell. Other effects are possible. A fear aura is an area effect. The descriptive text gives the size and kind of area.
Fear Cones (Sp) and Rays (Su)

These effects usually work like the fear spell.
Frightful Presence (Ex)

This special quality makes a creature’s very presence unsettling to foes. It takes effect automatically when the creature performs some sort of dramatic action (such as charging, attacking, or snarling). Opponents within range who witness the action may become frightened or shaken. Actions required to trigger the ability are given in the creature’s descriptive text. The range is usually 30 feet, and the duration is usually 5d6 rounds. This ability affects only opponents with fewer Hit Dice or levels than the creature has. An affected opponent can resist the effects with a successful Will save (DC 10 + ½ frightful creature’s racial HD + frightful creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to that same creature’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

This is not a Fear Aura, Fear Cone, Ray, or Frightful Presence. It's an Intimidate check. It says that these forms of Fear Attacks are mind-affecting. Intimidate was never listed, it simply applies the same kind of status effects.

Intimidate is not a Fear Attack, it is being used to Demoralize An Opponent.

Rules Lawyering FTW :smallbiggrin:

[PhoenixRivers]

Close, but no cigar.



This is not a Fear Aura, Fear Cone, Ray, or Frightful Presence. It's an Intimidate check. It says that these forms of Fear Attacks are mind-affecting. Intimidate was never listed, it simply applies the same kind of status effects.

Intimidate is not a Fear Attack, it is being used to Demoralize An Opponent.

Rules Lawyering FTW :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: "Demoralizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demoralize)" is a morale effect. Morale effects are included in the list of Mind-affecting effects.

HOWEVER:
Does it provide the Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked effect?
Yes. It is Fear.

Does it target or affect opponents?
Yes. It is an attack.

It is a fear attack, regardless of whether it's not one of the standard listed examples. Shaken, Frightened, and Panicked explicitly list themselves as states of fear.

In D&D, for something to qualify as an attack, it must meet a very broad definition. All it must do is target, affect, or include an enemy in its area of affect.

That makes it a fear attack. By the aforementioned rule, ALL fear attacks are mind affecting. Period.

There's really no other way to look at it. No other way to see it. No other way to rule it. You can state (like ToS does) that fear isn't mind-affecting, if you like. It's a fine piece of homebrew.

But it's not RAW. The list of effects in the Fear entry is not listed to be an exhaustive list of all fear attacks. The phrase "All fear attacks are mind affecting..." is, however, all inclusive.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

EDIT: "Demoralizing (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/demoralize)" is a morale effect. Morale effects are included in the list of Mind-affecting effects. However, it is not listed AS a morale effect. Therefore, it is not.


HOWEVER:
Does it provide the Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked effect?
Yes. It is Fear. Wrong. It applies the same status effect as Fear, but it is not a Fear effect.


Does it target or affect opponents?
Yes. It is an attack. Also incorrect


It is a fear attack, regardless of whether it's not one of the standard listed examples. Shaken, Frightened, and Panicked explicitly list themselves as states of fear.Therefore, this is an incorrect premises.


In D&D, for something to qualify as an attack, it must meet a very broad definition. All it must do is target, affect, or include an enemy in its area of affect.

That makes it a fear attack. By the aforementioned rule, ALL fear attacks are mind affecting. Period.

There's really no other way to look at it. No other way to see it. No other way to rule it. You can state (like ToS does) that fear isn't mind-affecting, if you like. It's a fine piece of homebrew.

But it's not RAW. The list of effects in the Fear entry is not listed to be an exhaustive list of all fear attacks. The phrase "All fear attacks are mind affecting..." is, however, all inclusive.

And as I pointed out, it isn't a fear attack. A fear attack is one of the four listed effects under Fear. This isn't any of them. Just like Diplomacy works on something immune to mind-affecting, despite the fact that it replicates Suggestion at higher levels, it is not a mind-affecting skill.

Neither is Intimidate.

[Runestar]

I am not aware of any high-cr oozes, though I admit I overlooked constructs entirely. :smalltongue:

[PhoenixRivers]

However, it is not listed AS a morale effect. Therefore, it is not.

Wrong. It applies the same status effect as Fear, but it is not a Fear effect. Those status effects are listed explicitly as states of fear. This is RAW. Don't believe me? Go to D20srd, click on "status conditions", and select any of them. They all explicitly state that they are states of fear (and even LINK to the Fear section).

And if you REALLY want to argue that Fear isn't a fear effect? Then I have nothing further to argue with you. Good luck actually convincing a single DM on the planet to agree with that interpretation.


also incorrectThe SRD disagrees with your stance on what is considered an attack (www.d20srd.org/srd/magicoverview/castingspells.htm#attacks).


And as I pointed out, it isn't a fear attack. A fear attack is one of the four listed effects under Fear.Cite the source stating that those are the only abilities that qualify as Fear Attacks. Show me explicit text that states "these four listed effects are the only abilities that qualify as a fear attack".

The flaw in your line of reasoning is that a Morale Effect is not a game term.

This means we fall back on english. And effects which alter or affect morale (which demoralizing does) is a Morale based effect. This, with any modicum of common sense when reading and interpreting rules, will yield that any attempt to influence or alter emotions qualifies as mind affecting, unless it explicitly states that it is not.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Those status effects are listed explicitly as states of fear. This is RAW. Don't believe me? Go to D20srd, click on "status conditions", and select any of them. They all explicitly state that they are states of fear (and even LINK to the Fear section).

And if you REALLY want to argue that Fear isn't a fear effect? Then I have nothing further to argue with you. Good luck actually convincing a single DM on the planet to agree with that interpretation.
The SRD disagrees with your stance on what is considered an attack (www.d20srd.org/srd/magicoverview/castingspells.htm#attacks).
Cite the source stating that those are the only abilities that qualify as Fear Attacks. Show me explicit text that states "these four listed effects are the only abilities that qualify as a fear attack".

The flaw in your line of reasoning is that a Morale Effect is not a game term.

This means we fall back on english. And effects which alter or affect morale (which demoralizing does) is a Morale based effect. This, with any modicum of common sense when reading and interpreting rules, will yield that any attempt to influence or alter emotions qualifies as mind affecting, unless it explicitly states that it is not.

I agree that logically, it should be a mind-affecting ability, but hey... if you can make a raging barbarian who is trying to eat your face and has despised you, personally, for most of his life, into someone who worships the ground you walk on and would die to defend you... with a single Diplomacy Check... and it isn't a mind-affecting ability, logic really doesn't enter the equation, does it?

RAW is not RAI.

[Soranar]

Alright Shneekey, reverse the problem.

find me a DM that would allow you to intimidate a robot or any other mindless creature with no sense of self-preservation?

[PhoenixRivers]

I agree that logically, it should be a mind-affecting ability, but hey... if you can make a raging barbarian who is trying to eat your face and has despised you, personally, for most of his life, into someone who worships the ground you walk on and would die to defend you... with a single Diplomacy Check... and it isn't a mind-affecting ability, logic really doesn't enter the equation, does it?

RAW is not RAI.
The problem with that? Yours isn't RAW OR RAI.

Shaken is explicitly stated as a fear effect.
Frightened is explicitly stated as a fear effect.
Panicked is explicitly stated as a fear effect.
The SRD considers an attack to be any offensive combat action.

All of the above is RAW. Any attempt to disagree with ANY of the above points is direct contradiction of RAW. It's not just "common sense". It's "common sense and RAW". Which means the opposing view is "neither common sense nor RAW". (hint: That "opposing view"? Is yours.)

Thus, an offensive combat action (demoralizing an opponent) which, as a direct result of its action, provides the Shaken, Frightened, or Panicked status is a Fear Attack.

Any attempt to disagree with that is a direct contradiction of RAW.

You can argue diplomacy until you're blue in the face. It's not diplomacy, and diplomacy doesn't inflict status conditions upon the target. This does. And those status conditions are EXPLICITLY fear. EXPLICITLY.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. You're arguing against RAW. You're arguing against RAI. The only thing that supports you is "RAYWTTB" (Rules as you want them to be).

And that's fine. Homebrew it. But don't try to tell me that the sky isn't blue, or that water isn't wet.

[sonofzeal]

Guys, er.... maybe we should all relax a bit?

RAW is difficult and convoluted in this case. I'd say that demoralize qualifies as a "fear attack", even if it isn't explicitly referenced on that list, because it parallels with a Dragon's Frightful Presence. If the list were only magical that'd be one thing, but the inclusion of a reference to an (Ex) ability pretty much seals the deal.



That said, the ability is still useful. There are five creature types that are immune to it, and ten that aren't (including the #1 most common creature type encountered in most campaigns I've seen, "Humanoid"). There are two classes I'm aware of that are immune to it, and something like fifty four that aren't. Mind Blank is the most common defense that would stop it, but that's an 8th level single-target spell.

Generally speaking, it's an excellent low-cost ability for scattering groups of mooks/minions. High HD enemies are more likely to resist, but even then the fact that it's free and at-will means it's still a viable tactic. Also, since the investment is relatively small (some skillpoints, and perhaps a skill-boosting item), you're not really pidgeonholed as a "one-trick pony" and more than the class already is... which isn't really saying much, but still.

[PhoenixRivers]

Guys, er.... maybe we should all relax a bit?

RAW is difficult and convoluted in this case. I'd say that demoralize qualifies as a "fear attack", even if it isn't explicitly referenced on that list, because it parallels with a Dragon's Frightful Presence. If the list were only magical that'd be one thing, but the inclusion of a reference to an (Ex) ability pretty much seals the deal.



That said, the ability is still useful. There are five creature types that are immune to it, and ten that aren't (including the #1 most common creature type encountered in most campaigns I've seen, "Humanoid"). There are two classes I'm aware of that are immune to it, and something like fifty four that aren't. Mind Blank is the most common defense that would stop it, but that's an 8th level single-target spell.

Generally speaking, it's an excellent low-cost ability for scattering groups of mooks/minions. High HD enemies are more likely to resist, but even then the fact that it's free and at-will means it's still a viable tactic. Also, since the investment is relatively small (some skillpoints, and perhaps a skill-boosting item), you're not really pidgeonholed as a "one-trick pony" and more than the class already is... which isn't really saying much, but still.

Polymorph is another easy defense. You gain the type of the creature you change into. Change into a treant? You're immune. And Polymorph is widely listed as one of the most versatile spells out there, so odds of that one after level 7? Are not bad when dealing with casters.

The most common creature type I've encountered (in a adversarial capacity) is "undead", so your mileage may vary on that "humanoids are most common" thing.

In addition, there are far more than 2 classes that are capable of fear immunity. Many classes have ACF's or abilities that have the option of making them immune to fear.

In other words? Classes that are considered weak? Are considered that way for a reason. The entirety of the respected charop community at 339 doesn't just randomly post and reach consensus on things without reason or purpose.

What does that mean? If you're going to try to show something that goes against current charop theory? Bring compelling evidence.

The build that Shneeky proposed that hits Level check DC's of 40+? That's akin to a truenamer with item familiars and custom skill items, optimized to have a +70 to the truename check. Yeah, the build is strong. That doesn't mean the class as a whole is. There are gaping fundamental weaknesses and flaws in the class. That a skilled optimizer can mitigate those to the point that the character can be effective? Doesn't change that it's a borked starting point.

Wizards are tier 1 because it is seriously quite difficult to build a bad one. Same applies to Druid and Cleric.

CW Samurai are Tier 6 because it is quite difficult to build a GOOD one. Even once you do? You're still going to be behind the higher tier classes.

[Sinfire Titan]

I agree that logically, it should be a mind-affecting ability, but hey... if you can make a raging barbarian who is trying to eat your face and has despised you, personally, for most of his life, into someone who worships the ground you walk on and would die to defend you... with a single Diplomacy Check... and it isn't a mind-affecting ability, logic really doesn't enter the equation, does it?

RAW is not RAI.

So you're saying that because of a small oversight in the rules:


The 10ft Cube of Jello is not going to be scared of a Dragon when it (the Jello) has no means of even telling what the **** a Dragon even is?
The 15ft slab of marble with arms is going to be scared of a Barbarian speaking Orcish, even though the Slab only understands rudementary Common?
That GODDAMN PLANTS are going to run in fear of anyone who took Frightful Presence (Draconomicon) whenever they fail the save against that person's charge?



Even Theoretical Optimization has standards, and you've honestly failed to meet them.

[faceroll]

I am not aware of any high-cr oozes, though I admit I overlooked constructs entirely. :smalltongue:

Bone Ooze has a pretty high CR.


Polymorph is another easy defense. You gain the type of the creature you change into. Change into a treant? You're immune. And Polymorph is widely listed as one of the most versatile spells out there, so odds of that one after level 7? Are not bad when dealing with casters.

How often do casters run around polymorphed into treants? What happens when the guy shows up and just scares your poop right into your pants, before you got a chance to become a bowelless treant?

Autofearing everyone for free seems like a pretty handy power- on par with a rogue's sneak attack ability, at the very least. Bringing up a caster's ability to be awesome hardly seems relevant.

[PhoenixRivers]

Bone Ooze has a pretty high CR.



How often do casters run around polymorphed into treants? What happens when the guy shows up and just scares your poop right into your pants, before you got a chance to become a bowelless treant?

Autofearing everyone for free seems like a pretty handy power- on par with a rogue's sneak attack ability, at the very least. Bringing up a caster's ability to be awesome hardly seems relevant.

You are allowed to use abilities when feared, especially to escape. Polymorph is a reasonable one, as it can give you additional movement modes.

Autofearing everyone for free is a "handy power". I'd rate it right up there with Hasting your entire party, or trip/lockdown on 5 enemies at once.

The problem is? That is ALL a CW samurai can do. That's it. Whereas, the equivalent is one small facet of another character class.

[JaronK]

Just to throw a little wood on the fire here:


SRD: Effect and Duration of Turning

Turned undead flee from you by the best and fastest means available to them. They flee for 10 rounds (1 minute). If they cannot flee, they cower (giving any attack rolls against them a +2 bonus). If you approach within 10 feet of them, however, they overcome being turned and act normally. (You can stand within 10 feet without breaking the turning effect—you just can’t approach them.) You can attack them with ranged attacks (from at least 10 feet away), and others can attack them in any fashion, without breaking the turning effect.

So there we have undead being affected by a fear effect (cowering) via alternate means (Turn Undead) which thus bypasses their normal immunity. Just to add that in there.

JaronK

[sonofzeal]

Polymorph is a defense, but only if it's up and active in that capacity before the fight starts. I see casters regularly, and I see polymorph occasionally, but I can only remember a few people polymorphed into treants. And if there were, then two slashing weapons and a Smite that doesn't care about alignment are actually pretty nice, especially against the d4 HD of most things that can polymorph themselves into treants. And if the caster's polymorphing his minions instead, he's leaving himself vulnerable to the Staredown.



And common perception on class balance is highly susceptible to "groupthink". The CW Samurai is a good example of this - it's subpar, fairly obviously subpar, but people tend to get a tad.... er, hyperbolic. And that feeds the general consensus, so other people start doing the same thing.

Monks suffer the same thing. They lag, but with even a little bit of effort they can mostly keep up with your average group. There's easy ways to get decent AC and there's easy ways to get Pounce, and if you can get a size-boost then your damage actually scales pretty well. You're "only" bringing higher dice sizes, but the unarmed strike by size tables are quadratic, in your favour. You're no ubercharger, but in most games you don't need to be, and I've seen Monks (with Improved Natural Attack and Monk's Belt and a size boost) throwing out attack routines that had the rest of the players slack-jawed. The class is a bit below the other comparable options (Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin), but that's manageable.

Again, both classes have serious problems, and I could cover those in detail if I wanted to. I'd recommend against either class unless the person knew what they were doing. But it's not that the class is terrible, it's that it's a bit below what we've come to expect. As a community, we have a strong tendency to emphasize any small but discernible gap in power, and turn it into a life-and-death difference. There is a difference, it's true, but the gap is smaller than you might think.

[JaronK]

The problem is? That is ALL a CW samurai can do. That's it. Whereas, the equivalent is one small facet of another character class.

In all fairness they do it quite well by level 10. Only the Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair do that effect better (though the Zhentarium Fighter 9 ability is probably better, but the abilities can work together).

And nothing stops them from being built as a charger, just like a Warrior. With those two combined, they can still be effective as long as their abilities actually apply to the situation. They've also got Diplomacy.

A basic solid CW Samurai build might be, for example, the following:

Water Orc CW Samurai 10 with two flaws, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Imperious Command, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush (not quite in that order). Max ranks in Intimidate and Diplomacy. Wear an Admiral's Bicorn (+7 to Intimidate and Diplomacy, and you get to be a pirate) and that mask that gives +10 to Intimidate. Wield the two handed weapon of your choice, preferably Valorous. Consider riding a mount and using a Lance too. Your next 10 levels should probably be Zhentarium Fighter.

Sure, that's ignoring most of the class features, really only making use of the Demoralize ability, the Diplomacy class skill, and the full BAB. But it's pretty darn useful.

JaronK

[PhoenixRivers]

Just to throw a little wood on the fire here:



So there we have undead being affected by a fear effect (cowering) via alternate means (Turn Undead) which thus bypasses their normal immunity. Just to add that in there.

JaronK

In this case, it explicitly states the immune type, and explicitly states that it does it anyway. In areas where rules contradict each other, primary source holds sway. In this instance, primary source for what undead do when turned?

Lies with the Turn Undead rules. Undead would be otherwise immune to anything that makes them cower, but this would be an explicit exception.


In all fairness they do it quite well by level 10. Only the Dread Pirate and Scarlet Corsair do that effect better (though the Zhentarium Fighter 9 ability is probably better, but the abilities can work together).

And nothing stops them from being built as a charger, just like a Warrior. With those two combined, they can still be effective as long as their abilities actually apply to the situation. They've also got Diplomacy.

A basic solid CW Samurai build might be, for example, the following:

Water Orc CW Samurai 10 with two flaws, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Imperious Command, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush (not quite in that order). Max ranks in Intimidate and Diplomacy. Wear an Admiral's Bicorn (+7 to Intimidate and Diplomacy, and you get to be a pirate) and that mask that gives +10 to Intimidate. Wield the two handed weapon of your choice, preferably Valorous. Consider riding a mount and using a Lance too. Your next 10 levels should probably be Zhentarium Fighter.

Sure, that's ignoring most of the class features, really only making use of the Demoralize ability, the Diplomacy class skill, and the full BAB. But it's pretty darn useful.

JaronK

First? You assume optional rules (flaws).
Second? You assume the hat and mask stack, and further, that they don't occupy the same item slot.

On top of that, you ignore EVERY class feature that isn't based on their demoralize ability. So? You're a 1 trick pony.

Again. Individual builds that are modestly competent do not show that the class is OMGZORZAWESOME. It doesn't even show that it's average. It just shows that a skilled optimizer can polish a turd until it looks ok.

By the argument that you use, I could make the argument that Truenaming is a solid class. After all, it has more varied abilities, more powerful abilities, and one can get a truename check high enough to be good.

But that doesn't make the class good. To make the class good, it must be able to stand on its own. You can build an effective barbarian a dozen different ways. You can build an effective sorceror hundreds of different ways.

That is simply not true of a CW samurai. They have one interesting ability, yes. It's a situational ability, not usable by everything, and stoppable by level 7, with a commonly used spell. It is far, far weaker than other melee builds.

Can it be made good? Yes.
Is it as good as any other base class in the game? Even one? No. It has the distinction of being the singularly worst base class in the game.

[JaronK]

In this case, it explicitly states the immune type, and explicitly states that it does it anyway. In areas where rules contradict each other, primary source holds sway. In this instance, primary source for what undead do when turned?

Lies with the Turn Undead rules. Undead would be otherwise immune to anything that makes them cower, but this would be an explicit exception.

Yes, but they don't actually say it's an exception. It's at least a possible interpretation that Turn Undead works on undead because it's not mind effecting, and the fact that it creates a feared state doesn't change that fact (despite the fact that fear achieved by other means is mind effecting). This could in turn be used to argue that Intimidate can work on those immune to mind effecting, because Intimidate doesn't say it's mind effecting.

With that said, I believe that when Intimidate says that things that are immune to fear are immune to Intimidate, that voids such a workaround.

JaronK

[faceroll]

You are allowed to use abilities when feared, especially to escape. Polymorph is a reasonable one, as it can give you additional movement modes.

Unfortunately, turning into a vermin, ooze, or plant, is not going to help you flee very well. Turning into a badger and burrowing? A dragon and flying? Sure.

If the caster has dimension door prepared, he must use that and not polymorph, to escape. If the caster can turn into a monster that has a speed of 120 feet, or that can burrow, then he can't turn into a vermin, ooze, or plant, because none of those offer him a better ability to flee.

[PhoenixRivers]

Yes, but they don't actually say it's an exception. It's at least a possible interpretation that Turn Undead works on undead because it's not mind effecting, and the fact that it creates a feared state doesn't change that fact (despite the fact that fear achieved by other means is mind effecting). This could in turn be used to argue that Intimidate can work on those immune to mind effecting, because Intimidate doesn't say it's mind effecting.

With that said, I believe that when Intimidate says that things that are immune to fear are immune to Intimidate, that voids such a workaround.

JaronK

Turn Undead can make Undead cower - explicitly stated RAW.
Cower is a fear effect - explicitly stated RAW.
Fear is ALWAYS a mind-affecting ability - explicitly stated RAW.
Undead are immune to mind-affecting abilities. - explicitly stated RAW.

By this? Nothing in the text contradicts that cowering is mind affecting. All fear is mind affecting, by RAW. This does not contradict that. One can only assume that this means that the cowering from turn undead is mind-affecting too.

Why? Because rules explicitly state it, and none contradict that.

This means that there is a rules contradiction, between the immunity of undead, and the effect of Turn Undead. In this, the rules of Turn undead are primary source, and hold sway.

That's the RAW interpretation. If you want to support an interpretation that is not RAW (i.e., the one you put forth), you're welcome to. Don't claim it's RAW though. RAW is that cowering is fear, and fear is always mind affecting.


Unfortunately, turning into a vermin, ooze, or plant, is not going to help you flee very well. Turning into a badger and burrowing? A dragon and flying? Sure.

If the caster has dimension door prepared, he must use that and not polymorph, to escape. If the caster can turn into a monster that has a speed of 120 feet, or that can burrow, then he can't turn into a vermin, ooze, or plant, because none of those offer him a better ability to flee.

SITUATIONAL ALERT!

Polymorph can't help escape? Let's see.

Ooze: Slips down drains, through cracks, under doors, etc. In other words? Goes places that the others can't.

Vermin: Travels in tiny spaces, possibly flies, or climbs walls. Added mobility in some terrains (webbed areas, for example)

As for the rest? No. The rules don't state that translocation abilities must be used over abilities that provide other means of escape. Anything that can be reasonably justified to aid escape can be used (doesn't even have to be entirely rational. After all, the character is running in terror. Knowing that one choice is better than another is a logical rational evaluation. The kind of evaluation that terrified people don't make.). Heck, the caster could use invisibility, as it makes it a heck of a lot harder to follow him/her. They could use blink, as it lets them run through walls. They could put a Wall of stone between them and the source of the fear, and run.

There are a lot of options... and there is absolutely ZERO RAW support for requiring Dim Door over any of them.

[JaronK]

Turn Undead can make Undead cower - explicitly stated RAW.

Agreed.


Cower is a fear effect - explicitly stated RAW.

Agreed.


Fear is ALWAYS a mind-affecting ability - explicitly stated RAW.

Agreed.


Undead are immune to mind-affecting abilities. - explicitly stated RAW.

Agreed.


By this? Nothing in the text contradicts that cowering is mind affecting. All fear is mind affecting, by RAW. This does not contradict that. One can only assume that this means that the cowering from turn undead is mind-affecting too.

The argument could be made that if cowering is induced by a non mind affecting means (such as Turn Undead or Intimidate) that it does not count as mind affecting, and Turn Undead is simply an example of that. After all, D&D already has the concept of illegal modifiers being on something as long as they got there legally, such as an object being Hardened via the Harden spell and then Animated via Haunt Shift or Animate Dead... Harden cannot target creatures (illegal modifier) but since it was cast legally (when it was an object, not a creature) the effect remains. You could argue a similar situation with Turn Undead and Intimidate bypassing the normal mind affecting status of fear by applying the effect via a non mind affecting means. Of course, it could simply be a case of "the specific overrides the general" and the whole thing could be a red herring. I was just throwing that out there as a possibility.

Personally, I think the line in intimidate about how anyone immune to fear is immune to it is what kills it (such a line obviously does not exist with Turn Undead). Anything immune to mind affecting is immune to fear, so that would deal with the issue.

JaronK

[PhoenixRivers]

The argument could be made that if cowering is induced by a non mind affecting means (such as Turn Undead or Intimidate) that it does not count as mind affecting, and Turn Undead is simply an example of that. That argument could be made.

Of course, it would also be against RAW, but it could be made.

Cowering is fear. Fear is mind affecting. Not sometimes. ALWAYS. For a fear effect to NOT be mind affecting, it needs text along the lines of, "this is not a mind-affecting effect". In that instance, we have a contradiction, and the text of the ability is primary source.

As is? There is no contradiction.
Premise 1: Fear is always mind affecting.
Premise 2: Turn undead does not contradict that.
Premise 3: Turn undead generates a fear effect.
Conclusion: Turn undead, when it forces something to cower, is producing a mind affecting effect.

After all, D&D already has the concept of illegal modifiers being on something as long as they got there legally, such as an object being Hardened via the Harden spell and then Animated via Haunt Shift or Animate Dead... Harden cannot target creatures (illegal modifier) but since it was cast legally (when it was an object, not a creature) the effect remains.This is true. However, at the time that the object is animated, Harden is not targeting it. Spells target when they resolve. Not for the duration of their effect. Therefore, the effect is not illegal.

You could argue a similar situation with Turn Undead and Intimidate bypassing the normal mind affecting status of fear by applying the effect via a non mind affecting means.
Yes, you could argue it.

Again, it would directly contradict the text "Fear is always a mind affecting fear effect" with no RAW support for doing so... and thus would be an argument that is not RAW.

[faceroll]

Polymorph can't help escape? Let's see.

Ooze: Slips down drains, through cracks, under doors, etc. In other words? Goes places that the others can't.

Quite true; given that there are such things to escape through.


Vermin: Travels in tiny spaces, possibly flies, or climbs walls. Added mobility in some terrains (webbed areas, for example)

Sure, but there are much better options out there as far as flying away swiftly go, and unless you're a very small spellcaster, it's not like you're going to be able to turn into a housefly.


As for the rest? No. The rules don't state that translocation abilities must be used over abilities that provide other means of escape.


A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

If you are to flee the best you can, turning into a puddle isn't as good as teleporting.


Anything that can be reasonably justified to aid escape can be used (doesn't even have to be entirely rational. After all, the character is running in terror. Knowing that one choice is better than another is a logical rational evaluation. The kind of evaluation that terrified people don't make.). Heck, the caster could use invisibility, as it makes it a heck of a lot harder to follow him/her. They could use blink, as it lets them run through walls. They could put a Wall of stone between them and the source of the fear, and run.

There are a lot of options... and there is absolutely ZERO RAW support for requiring Dim Door over any of them.

I have no problem with a frightened spellcaster performing any of those actions. However, a frightened spellcaster turning into a suboptimal polymorph shape with the metagame purpose of becoming fear immune is problematic.

[PhoenixRivers]

Quite true; given that there are such things to escape through.There's nearly always cracks.


Sure, but there are much better options out there as far as flying away swiftly go, and unless you're a very small spellcaster, it's not like you're going to be able to turn into a housefly.There may be better options than a housefly, yes. There may be better options than a giant bee.

However, the character may not immediately think of them. If that rule was intended to be "always chooses the optimal option", then every action would require a LOT of thought. As long as a solid justification for the form is made, then it's fine.


If you are to flee the best you can, turning into a puddle isn't as good as teleporting.Depends. Fear breeds paranoia. What if there's a Dimension Lock up? Then turning into an ooze and flowing under the door is infinitely better.


I have no problem with a frightened spellcaster performing any of those actions. However, a frightened spellcaster turning into a suboptimal polymorph shape with the metagame purpose of becoming fear immune is problematic.
Assuming sources are: all monster manuals and complete books, as well as "races of" books and eberron sourcebooks... What is the polymorph legal creature with the highest movement?

If it takes you more than 5 minutes looking through books? Then methinks that's not the interpretation suggested. Again, one could argue that the character uses the best creature for flight, but that could be meta too. After all, has the character seen them all fly and evaluated their speed?

What could be thought is?
Bees are fast, and hard to hit, and they fly.
A black pudding could get through that grate over there.

They're solid (if situational) choices. The bee is a well known creature, even moreso than a hawk or eagle.

Too many people think "suboptimal" = "bad". This is not true. If suboptimal were bad, then any player playing anything other than the absolute most optimal class would be bad. And players would be of differing opinion as to which tier 1 class that was. Because it's not clear to us.

So how would it be clear to the character?

[DJDizzy]

What the heck is OP "by default?"

No houseruling, which I give the monk every time I DM, because, seriously, did wizard have a brain hemorrhage when they designed it?

[Optimystik]

Just to throw a little wood on the fire here:

So there we have undead being affected by a fear effect (cowering) via alternate means (Turn Undead) which thus bypasses their normal immunity. Just to add that in there.

JaronK

Being turned is not a fear effect, because no amount of turning makes Undead go through the three stages (shaken, frightened, panicked.)

[Signmaker]

Query: If a fear effect is granted by a spell, is that spell [Mind-affecting], or even [Fear]? Usually, the case is 'Yes', but what occurs when the answer is 'No', as in the case of Howling Chain (Evocation[Force]), Wrack (Necromancy[Evil]) or Night's Caress (Necromancy[Evil])? Are the shaken/panicked effects given by those spells negated by an immunity to mind-affecting abilities, despite not having the appropriate descriptor? Granted, these are all non-core spells, but I thought I'd bring the point up.

[Eloel]

By 'all fear are mind-effecting', undead are immune to Turn Undead.

?!?!

[Signmaker]

By 'all fear are mind-effecting', undead are immune to Turn Undead.

?!?!

Addressed previously in the thread. Explicit exception to the rule.

[Optimystik]

It's more than an exception. Turned (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#turned) is a completely separate condition from Shaken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#shaken), Frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened) and Panicked. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#panicked)

Turned also says nothing about being a state of fear like the other three do... because it isn't one.

[sonofzeal]

I suppose we could also ask whether Vampires are susceptible to Diplomancy. If their immunity to mind-affecting doesn't extend to conversation and "normal" uses of Diplomacy and Intimidate, then it hardly makes sense for Demoralize not to work. Not a RAW argument I know, but something to consider.

[Optimystik]

I suppose we could also ask whether Vampires are susceptible to Diplomancy. If their immunity to mind-affecting doesn't extend to conversation and "normal" uses of Diplomacy and Intimidate, then it hardly makes sense for Demoralize not to work. Not a RAW argument I know, but something to consider.

They are not susceptible. Epic Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) is specifically mind-affecting.

[sonofzeal]

They are not susceptible. Epic Diplomacy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy) is specifically mind-affecting.
"Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect".

So Fanatic is mind-affecting, but by implication the others are not since fanatic is specifically called out, apparently as an exception. However, that does give precedence to skillchecks providing mind-affecting effects.

Meh, whatever. :smalltongue:

[JaronK]

Being turned is not a fear effect, because no amount of turning makes Undead go through the three stages (shaken, frightened, panicked.)

So you claim cowering is not a fear effect? Just because you don't go through the stages doesn't mean it's suddenly not fear. Cowering is defined as a fear effect.

And Diplomacy does work on mind immunes, but Fanatacism doesn't.

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think a distinction needs to be made...

There is a difference between Immune to Mind-Affecting and Mindless.

Mindless is a state which is immune to Intimidate. In fact, one of the stronger supports for my position is that it explicitly states that Mindless is immune to intimidate, which it is already inherently immune to mind-affecting.

So no, you aren't going to intimidate a slab of granite or ooze or mindless undead. Period.

However, I think a lot of things touted to be immune to mind-affecting *can* be intimidated. Look, for example, at OotS. Eye of Fear and Flame was definitely intimidated, both by Redcloak and by Belkar later.

Now, let's look at a Vamp. Sure, they're big and nasty, but unable to be intimidated? Hardly. Now, there isn't as much which can truly harm a vamp, so they do have some ego, but there's a visceral back-brain part which governs terror that can simply bypass what you 'know' to be true.

Mind Flayers are immune to Mind-Affecting. Do you think they can't be intimidated? I certainly beg to differ. Threaten to cut off their mouth-tentacles one at a time and feed them to your pet dog, and see what kind of reaction you're going to get out of it. Describe, in loving detail, exactly how you would love nothing better than to slowly dissect them while they are still alive, and see if that doesn't scare them a little...

Point is, there's a difference between a fear effect and a fear attack, and there's a difference between Mindless and Immune to Mind-Affecting. Mindless are, by definition, immune to mind-affecting. So why explicitly declare Mindless immune to Intimidate, since they are already immune due to being immune to mind-affecting, unless it is not a mind-affecting ability?

[PhoenixRivers]

I think a distinction needs to be made...Only if one exists, and only to the extent that it exists.


There is a difference between Immune to Mind-Affecting and Mindless.Correct. The first can think, the other can not.


Mindless is a state which is immune to Intimidate. In fact, one of the stronger supports for my position is that it explicitly states that Mindless is immune to intimidate, which it is already inherently immune to mind-affecting.Correct. Non-mindless are not immune to being intimidated. They are, however, immune to any interactive effects of intimidation that are based on fear. Because the rules say so. Any appeal to common sense, is all well and good, but RAW is quite clear on the subject.


So no, you aren't going to intimidate a slab of granite or ooze or mindless undead. Period.Or an intelligent undead. Or an intelligent plant. Period.


However, I think a lot of things touted to be immune to mind-affecting *can* be intimidated. Look, for example, at OotS. Eye of Fear and Flame was definitely intimidated, both by Redcloak and by Belkar later. OotS has been explicitly stated to play fast and loose with the rules, for the sake of humor. That renders any example somewhat less than satisfactory for supporting rules. Or contradicting RAW.

Let me make that clear. As entertaining as OotS is, it is not RAW.


Now, let's look at a Vamp. Sure, they're big and nasty, but unable to be intimidated? Hardly. Now, there isn't as much which can truly harm a vamp, so they do have some ego, but there's a visceral back-brain part which governs terror that can simply bypass what you 'know' to be true.And anything that is immune to mind affecting? It can be scared. However, it cannot be scared by anything external to itself in a combative fashion. Any hostile combat action is an attack, and it is explicitly immune to such things.


Mind Flayers are immune to Mind-Affecting. Do you think they can't be intimidated? I certainly beg to differ. Threaten to cut off their mouth-tentacles one at a time and feed them to your pet dog, and see what kind of reaction you're going to get out of it. Describe, in loving detail, exactly how you would love nothing better than to slowly dissect them while they are still alive, and see if that doesn't scare them a little...Interestingly, aberrations are not immune to mind-affecting. Nothing in a Mind-Flayer's MM entry suggests fear immunity. Thus, any appeal to how they're not immune to fear is perfectly fine. Why? Because they're not.


Point is, there's a difference between a fear effect and a fear attack, and there's a difference between Mindless and Immune to Mind-Affecting. Correct. If someone intimidates themselves, it wouldn't qualify as an attack. If it's a hostile combat action, it's an attack, though. Period. No common sense appeal can overturn what the rules state.

Mindless are, by definition, immune to mind-affecting. So why explicitly declare Mindless immune to Intimidate, since they are already immune due to being immune to mind-affecting, unless it is not a mind-affecting ability?Because, it doesn't say it's not. In the face of explicit text stating that "XXX is always mind affecting", you need EXPLICIT text stating that. Why wasn't it? Because it was written by someone who wrote it that way. There are no less than a hundred redundant portions of the rules, that state something that would be true anyway. That isn't so much an implication that other things aren't true. It's more an implication that the rules writers aren't perfect.

In short? Fear is mind affecting, ALWAYS, when performed in a hostile manner in combat. To override that, you need explicit RAW text.

Personal opinions, common sense pleas, and other similar points? Are absolutely meaningless for that.

[Frosty]

By RAI, I'd say that truly mindless things will be immune to Intimidate, but Mindblank and similar abilities, and anything with an Int score (like Intelligent undead) is NOT immune to Intimidate.

A vampire or a wizard with Mindblank on can still feel emotions. They can feel happiness. They can feel sadness. They can laugh. Any being that can feel emotions can feel afraid as well. Being afraid is different than Fear. A vampire will still sweat (well, if they CAN sweat that is) when fighting a High Priest Radiant Servant of Pelor, because the Vampire KNOWS that the enemy can DUST him. Being immune to mind-affecting effects has nothing to do with that.

Unless people want to say that being undead and having Mindblank on makes you unaffected by ALL morale bonii and penalties (such as bardic music stuff), I don't see why Intimidate wouldn't work.

[Volkov]

I think a distinction needs to be made...

There is a difference between Immune to Mind-Affecting and Mindless.

Mindless is a state which is immune to Intimidate. In fact, one of the stronger supports for my position is that it explicitly states that Mindless is immune to intimidate, which it is already inherently immune to mind-affecting.

So no, you aren't going to intimidate a slab of granite or ooze or mindless undead. Period.

However, I think a lot of things touted to be immune to mind-affecting *can* be intimidated. Look, for example, at OotS. Eye of Fear and Flame was definitely intimidated, both by Redcloak and by Belkar later.

Now, let's look at a Vamp. Sure, they're big and nasty, but unable to be intimidated? Hardly. Now, there isn't as much which can truly harm a vamp, so they do have some ego, but there's a visceral back-brain part which governs terror that can simply bypass what you 'know' to be true.

Mind Flayers are immune to Mind-Affecting. Do you think they can't be intimidated? I certainly beg to differ. Threaten to cut off their mouth-tentacles one at a time and feed them to your pet dog, and see what kind of reaction you're going to get out of it. Describe, in loving detail, exactly how you would love nothing better than to slowly dissect them while they are still alive, and see if that doesn't scare them a little...

Point is, there's a difference between a fear effect and a fear attack, and there's a difference between Mindless and Immune to Mind-Affecting. Mindless are, by definition, immune to mind-affecting. So why explicitly declare Mindless immune to Intimidate, since they are already immune due to being immune to mind-affecting, unless it is not a mind-affecting ability?

A real mind flayer would laugh at your feeble attempts to scare it. These were the beings that made the Demons and the Devils fear for their own existence, your not going to be afraid of your feeble attempts. Now to scare it, threaten their Elder Brain and have the ability to back-up your boasts.

[absolmorph]

A real mind flayer would laugh at your feeble attempts to scare it. These were the beings that made the Demons and the Devils fear for their own existence, your not going to be afraid of your feeble attempts. Now to scare it, threaten their Elder Brain and have the ability to back-up your boasts.
They wouldn't be able to tell if you can back it up or not.
And they wouldn't make the save (they have a +21 modifier), so they would be worried about you taking 'em out. They aren't immune.
Plus, they're scrawny little suckers. The dude in the scary armor carrying a sword like he can use it (and possibly having demonstrated already) will have some weight behind his words.

[Flickerdart]

Can you feed a mind flayer its own brain?

[Starbuck_II]

Ask Hannibal Lector: I'm sure when he played D&D he did.

[PhoenixRivers]

By RAI, I'd say that truly mindless things will be immune to Intimidate, but Mindblank and similar abilities, and anything with an Int score (like Intelligent undead) is NOT immune to Intimidate.

A vampire or a wizard with Mindblank on can still feel emotions. They can feel happiness. They can feel sadness. They can laugh. Any being that can feel emotions can feel afraid as well. Being afraid is different than Fear. A vampire will still sweat (well, if they CAN sweat that is) when fighting a High Priest Radiant Servant of Pelor, because the Vampire KNOWS that the enemy can DUST him. Being immune to mind-affecting effects has nothing to do with that.However, that vampire will not get penalties or restrictions to its actions for facing a foe that's a threat. When a Fear effect generated as an offensive combat action causes such penalties, it is a mind-affecting ability. Always. End of discussion. Any attempt to state otherwise is a direct contradiction of RAW. Always. End of discussion.

Your view isn't RAI. It's RAIWTTB (Rules as I want them to be).


Unless people want to say that being undead and having Mindblank on makes you unaffected by ALL morale bonii and penalties (such as bardic music stuff), I don't see why Intimidate wouldn't work.Both are true. Morale bonuses and penalties are explicitly mind-affecting. Anyone with a mind blank or a creature type that renders you immune to mind affecting effects makes you unaffected by morale modifiers. There are exceptions (bards with the requiem feat, for example, are explicitly allowed to affect undead with bardic music), but without such an explicit contradiction? You're right. Morale modifiers do not affect creatures immune to mind-affecting abilities.