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Gnaeus
2010-02-06, 06:43 PM
One of the PCs in my group is currently playing an 8th level human Daring Outlaw Spiked Chain Tripper. He currently has just the basics (EWP chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes) and he was telling us how he was planning to take whirlwind attack next level, but backed down quickly when the DM and I staggered back in horror.

Can anyone suggest any resources for such a build? Is there a daring outlaw or chain tripper handbook somewhere? I found an ancient (5 year old) rogue handbook on the Wizards site, but that didn't help much, and I don't have a lot of personal experience with this kind of build.

Edit: pretty much all books are in play. I am hesitant to bring a lot of ToB stuff in, because he forgets that he has it, but it is legal if it is helpful enough.

gallagher
2010-02-06, 06:49 PM
One of the PCs in my group is currently playing an 8th level human Daring Outlaw Spiked Chain Tripper. He currently has just the basics (EWP chain, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes) and he was telling us how he was planning to take whirlwind attack next level, but backed down quickly when the DM and I staggered back in horror.

Can anyone suggest any resources for such a build? Is there a daring outlaw or chain tripper handbook somewhere? I found an ancient (5 year old) rogue handbook on the Wizards site, but that didn't help much, and I don't have a lot of personal experience with this kind of build.

Edit: pretty much all books are in play. I am hesitant to bring a lot of ToB stuff in, because he forgets that he has it, but it is legal if it is helpful enough.
i dont know anything about the daring outlaw, but if i were him i would try for spring attack. forcing people to take an AoO to attack is a good thing, and if he has decent speed he can charge, hit, run back a little, AoO, charge, hit, run back, la la la la la.

Mongoose87
2010-02-06, 06:52 PM
Isn't he a few feats short of qualifying for Whirlwind Attack?

Sinfire Titan
2010-02-06, 06:53 PM
i dont know anything about the daring outlaw, but if i were him i would try for spring attack. forcing people to take an AoO to attack is a good thing, and if he has decent speed he can charge, hit, run back a little, AoO, charge, hit, run back, la la la la la.

You can't charge and use Spring Attack in the same round. Besides, Spring Attack is way too feat-intensive for a Daring Outlaw Chain Tripper.

You could use Travel Devotion, but that's a different feat entirely.

@OP: Check BG (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php). Our Min/Max section is far more accomplished and updated than the GiantITP threads due to lax rules (no offense to the hard working souls here). A large number of prominent optimizers reside there, and can help you out.

Saph
2010-02-06, 06:55 PM
Yeah, I don't really see how he's going to be able to get Whirlwind Attack. He already has EWP, Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Daring Outlaw. To get Whirlwind he'd also need Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack before taking Whirlwind Attack. That's 9 feats. I don't know how he's going to get all those by anywhere near 8th level.

Boci
2010-02-06, 06:58 PM
Yeah, I don't really see how he's going to be able to get Whirlwind Attack. He already has EWP, Expertise, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes, and Daring Outlaw. To get Whirlwind he'd also need Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack before taking Whirlwind Attack. That's 9 feats. I don't know how he's going to get all those by anywhere near 8th level.

Maybe he meant getting the whirling enhancement on his spiked chain?

Gnaeus
2010-02-06, 07:02 PM
You can't charge and use Spring Attack in the same round. Besides, Spring Attack is way too feat-intensive for a Daring Outlaw Chain Tripper.

You could use Travel Devotion, but that's a different feat entirely.


That was one of my default suggestions. He's thinking about it.


@OP: Check BG. Our Min/Max section is far more accomplished and updated than the GiantITP threads due to lax rules (no offense to the hard working souls here). A large number of prominent optimizers reside there, and can help you out.

I checked their handbook section and did a search before posting here. I was hoping someone knew of a guide somewhere.


Isn't he a few feats short of qualifying for Whirlwind Attack?

I don't have his character sheet in front of me. He does have a few more feats than I mentioned (2 flaws, one or 2 from dm boosts to his classes)(I know he has dodge, I don't think he has mobility, I know he doesn't have spring attack). It is entirely possible that he could get there at either 9 or 12, since there are about 20 pages of basic houserules (which I have) which don't include the DM's fixes to Swashbuckler (which I don't have) so it is plausible that he could get there. It just isn't likely that it would help him very often in our campaign.


Maybe he meant getting the whirling enhancement on his spiked chain?

I'm sure that was not what he meant, although that would help him also.

Soranar
2010-02-06, 07:05 PM
Here's an old build I made

1 Swashbuckler exotic weapon proficiency :spiked chain, combat reflexes bonus feat weapon finesse
2 Swordsage bonus feat: weapon focus: spiked chain
3 Swordsage shadow blade Wisdom to AC
4 Rogue
5 Rogue bonus feat:evasion
6 Rogue Daring Outlaw alternative feature, half sneak damage vs undead instead of trapfinding
7 Swashbuckler
8 Swashbuckler insightful strike
9 Swashbuckler Sneak attack of opportunity

EDIT:

STATS (32 pts buy, although lower works too)

STR 8 (dump)
DEX 16 (boost to hit and damage through shadow blade and weapon finesse)
CON14
INT 16 (boost damage and skills)
WIS 14 (boost AC in light armor and Will saves)
CHA 8 (dump)

Race: human

DEX determines how many AoO you get you clearly your main stat, the other 3 can be in any order really, depending on your playstyle (I prefer more skills and damage to more hitpoints or AC)

Mongoose87
2010-02-06, 07:08 PM
Sneak Attack of Opportunity is kinda an Epic feat.

Gnaeus
2010-02-06, 07:08 PM
Here's an old build I made
9 Swashbuckler Sneak attack of opportunity

What is that from/what does it do?

Soranar
2010-02-06, 07:09 PM
your first attack of opportunity (each round) is also a sneak attack

Pluto
2010-02-06, 07:10 PM
Can anyone suggest any resources for such a build?

I've seen Adaptable Flanker (PHB2) and Staggering Strike (CAdv) used frequently in similar builds to great effect.

Adaptable Flanker lets this sort of character (high reach, sneak attacker) flank with himself.

Staggering Strike lets him force a save every time he sneak attacks in melee or his target is reduced to a standard action per round.

But there are plenty of feats that could be used:

Anything that forces AoOs (Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Defensive Sweep, Defensive Throw, Mageslayer etc.), expands options (various domain and tactical feats, martial study, etc.), boosts defenses (shape soulmeld feats, pierce magic concealment, etc.) or boosts damage (Craven, Divine Might, Knowledge Devotion, etc.) will help.

Coidzor
2010-02-06, 07:12 PM
Hmm. Knock Down, maybe?

herrhauptmann
2010-02-06, 07:31 PM
I've seen Adaptable Flanker (PHB2) and Staggering Strike (CAdv) used frequently in similar builds to great effect.

Adaptable Flanker lets this sort of character (high reach, sneak attacker) flank with himself.

Staggering Strike lets him force a save every time he sneak attacks in melee or his target is reduced to a standard action per round.

But there are plenty of feats that could be used:

Anything that forces AoOs (Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, Defensive Sweep, Defensive Throw, Mageslayer etc.), expands options (various domain and tactical feats, martial study, etc.), boosts defenses (shape soulmeld feats, pierce magic concealment, etc.) or boosts damage (Craven, Divine Might, Knowledge Devotion, etc.) will help.
Adaptable flanker does not let you flank with yourself. It makes it very easy to give flanking to an ally, so get it if you have a rogue in the party. Only works on one enemy at a time. You can argue all you want, but I've seen it brought, and got shot down repeatedly by other forum goers whose knowledge I believe to be equal/superior to my own.
Sneak attack of opportunity is Epic Level handbook. Requires dragonwrought kobold to take before level 21 (still gotta meet other prereqs).
Vexing flanker is nice, +4 when flanking.
Vae school (drow of underdark) is nice, but requires weapon focus and a bab of 6 or 8.
Deft Opportunist, +4 on AOO
Sidestep (requires dodge/mobility), get a 5ft step each AOO
Knockdown

Soranar
2010-02-06, 07:40 PM
Sneak attack of opportunity is not only an epic feat. They just happen to have the same name. The actual feat requirement is 3d6 sneak attack, and it only works once per turn (as opposed to every single time) and it only works on your first (you don't choose which).

Pluto
2010-02-06, 11:07 PM
Adaptable flanker does not let you flank with yourself. It makes it very easy to give flanking to an ally, so get it if you have a rogue in the party. Only works on one enemy at a time. You can argue all you want, but I've seen it brought, and got shot down repeatedly by other forum goers whose knowledge I believe to be equal/superior to my own.

"... When you are adjacent to the chosen target, you can choose to count as occupying any other square you threaten for purposes of determining flanking bonuses for you and your allies. You also occupy your current square for flanking an opponent ..."

I guess can see how you might interpret "an opponent" to mean a different opponent than the one you've chosen for the feat, but I would hardly consider that a convincing case.

The interpretation that allows flanking with yourself seems both plausible and reasonable - it is the way the feat reads and it rewards your 3-feat investment with something more than you'd get with a 5-ft step.

Gnaeus
2010-02-07, 07:57 AM
Adaptable flanker does not let you flank with yourself.

That is a good suggestion, but he is using an item giving him Island of Blades stance, and coupled with summons + burning ember from other party members we can usually get the flank.


Sneak attack of opportunity is not only an epic feat. .

What book is that in?

Curmudgeon
2010-02-07, 08:07 AM
What book is that in?
It isn't; it's in Dragon magazine: # 340, page 87.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-02-07, 09:38 AM
Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sneak_Attack_of_Opportunity) non-epic
Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sneak_Attack_of_Opportunity_(Epic)) epic version

Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) should be a requirement for any viable chain tripper.

For magic items, he'll probably want Sweeping, Whirling, and Brutal Surge on his chain. Armbands of Might are helpful for making those trip checks. Greatreach Bracers are also useful, and aren't too expensive to add to the Armbands at +50% cost.

shadow_archmagi
2010-02-07, 09:46 AM
I read the title as "Daring Chainsaw Outlaw Tripper"

I had a picture of a crime-fighting superhero who throws chainsaws at people to make them fall over.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 10:58 AM
Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sneak_Attack_of_Opportunity) non-epic
Sneak Attack of Opportunity (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Sneak_Attack_of_Opportunity_(Epic)) epic version

Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) should be a requirement for any viable chain tripper.

For magic items, he'll probably want Sweeping, Whirling, and Brutal Surge on his chain. Armbands of Might are helpful for making those trip checks. Greatreach Bracers are also useful, and aren't too expensive to add to the Armbands at +50% cost.

Not sure how he's supposed to qualify for it though. You'd need improved trip + 15 strength.