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Goonthegoof
2010-02-07, 07:57 AM
Does anyone know of a class that would be useful for a character who has about 12 natural attacks per turn and a strength of around 30? I spent ages having fun adding grafts to a character ECL 17, but I need some classes to fill those 17 levels with. Any ideas?

While I'm at it- Can you prepare a maneuver multiple times?

Darrin
2010-02-07, 09:56 AM
Does anyone know of a class that would be useful for a character who has about 12 natural attacks per turn and a strength of around 30? I spent ages having fun adding grafts to a character ECL 17, but I need some classes to fill those 17 levels with. Any ideas?


Totemist. Double your natural attacks, and there are plenty of soulmelds that buff natural attacks.



While I'm at it- Can you prepare a maneuver multiple times?

Nope. Ruby Knight Vindicator + Nightstick abuse can rip a hole through a few rulebooks, though.

Eloel
2010-02-07, 10:17 AM
While I'm at it- Can you prepare a maneuver multiple times?

Depends, which maneuver? If you get enough levels in Swordsage AND Crusader AND Warblade, I think you can prepare a maneuver off of the shared-discipline 3 times.

Soranar
2010-02-07, 11:00 AM
Anything that adds sneak attack damage.

The template multiheaded is probably for you

Glimbur
2010-02-07, 02:26 PM
There's a PrC that adds negative levels to your natural attacks. It's called Soul Eater and is in the Book of Vile Darkness. You might only want to take one level if you can find better classes to take, but a negative level per hit is pretty scary. Throw on Vile Natural Attack so you do some damage that's pretty hard to resist and you're in business.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-07, 02:35 PM
There's a PrC that adds negative levels to your natural attacks. It's called Soul Eater and is in the Book of Vile Darkness. You might only want to take one level if you can find better classes to take, but a negative level per hit is pretty scary. Throw on Vile Natural Attack so you do some damage that's pretty hard to resist and you're in business.

I say that Soul eater is an excelent choice it has full BAB, all good saves and have some useful things like getting bonuses after draining attacks, and then eventually up to two negative levels per touch.

Prerequisites are alertness weapn focus (natural attack or claw I don't remember exactly) and type: non-humanoid (monstrous humanoid is acceptable) which you can get with feral template

Pluto
2010-02-07, 02:39 PM
Does anyone know of a class that would be useful for a character who has about 12 natural attacks per turn and a strength of around 30? I spent ages having fun adding grafts to a character ECL 17, but I need some classes to fill those 17 levels with. Any ideas?

Honestly, with that sort of setup, you're probably better off pointing your class levels in a direction other than melee.

As tempting as it is to boost damage output into the thousands, once you pass a few hundred, it becomes a waste of time.

I'd probably go Cleric. Both because you didn't really present a concept (and Cleric can fit just about any concept) and because everything becomes more spectacular with a couple doses of Giant Size.

Goonthegoof
2010-02-07, 04:05 PM
As it happens the guy already has the feral template, so that will be fine :smallsmile:

Also which Totemist ability doubles my natural attacks? If we're talking about Dread Carapace doesn't Power Attack give the same thing?

Goonthegoof
2010-02-07, 04:13 PM
As it happens the guy already has the feral template, so that will be fine :smallsmile:

Also which Totemist ability doubles my natural attacks? If we're talking about Dread Carapace doesn't Power Attack give the same thing?

How did that even happen?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-02-07, 04:16 PM
I believe he means that totemist double your natural attacks by effectively giving you twice the number of attacks with sould melds (thoug a 2 level dip to bind Girrallon arms souns pretty useful)

Flickerdart
2010-02-07, 05:32 PM
There's a PrC that adds negative levels to your natural attacks. It's called Soul Eater and is in the Book of Vile Darkness. You might only want to take one level if you can find better classes to take, but a negative level per hit is pretty scary. Throw on Vile Natural Attack so you do some damage that's pretty hard to resist and you're in business.
Don't those guys just drain 2 levels on a touch attack? The exact wording, I believe, is "with a touch", which seems to imply a separate action.

Goonthegoof
2010-02-08, 07:12 AM
Beginning at 1st level, the touch of a soul eater bestows one negative level on its target. It doesn't say touch attack so I won't treat it as one :smallsmile:

I think I'll use soul eater, concept works great with my character.

Runestar
2010-02-08, 07:15 AM
Are you able to overcome dr? Sucks have dr15 apply to each of your 12 attacks...:smallyuk:

Goonthegoof
2010-02-08, 07:19 AM
It would suck, but on the plus side DR doesn't negate energy drains.

Iceforge
2010-02-08, 08:27 AM
Don't those guys just drain 2 levels on a touch attack? The exact wording, I believe, is "with a touch", which seems to imply a separate action.

I think that would make it more evil, as I think the standard interpretation of such would be that he can choose to use a simple touch attack rather than an attack to hurt.

Sure, he won't inflict injury, but he is attacking a much lower AC, and he can just split his attacks up so the attacks with the highest bonus are regular attacks and those with the lowest bonus (and thus regularly the lowest chance of hitting) into touch attacks to inflict more save checks on the enemy.

If someone only needs to roll 5+ to save against the negative levels (I am not sure if he needs to take 1 save to avoid 2 negative levels or 2 checks pr time, one for each negative level), but is hit 5 times during 1 turn, he should still average 2 negative levels, which means than in the next round, he needs to roll 9+ to save and should thus be inflicted with 4 negative levels and then he needs 17+ to save and should get so many more, that from there on out, he needs a natural 20 to save on those nasty negative levels, which are working to kill him fast.

If it is a energi drain type ability, where the PC also gets hit points for those negative levels, he could take out even some of the most nasty things, assuming he got surviability to last through the first 3 or so rounds it takes him to nerf the living snot out of almost anything.

The more badass a thing he is up against, the more of his attacks are just going to be touch attacks instead of plain attacks.

Sure, a tarrasque got a nasty 35 armor, but he only got 5 touch.
It does have a nasty +38 fortitude save through, but he always fails on a 1 too.
So 24 attacks pr. round (someone mentioned a way to double natural attacks pr. round), means an average of 22 hits (playing the odds to be against the player here by rounding factions against him)
That means averaging 2 negative levels pr. round. descreasig that nasty fortitude save by 4 each round.
Even if the save DC is super low at 15, it only takes 6 rounds before the Tarrasque starts failing on rolls besides natural 1, after which it starts going down really fast and stops being able to hit anything.

To top that off, this works in excellent combo with the rest of the party, as the moment the saves of the tarrasque goes down, their abilities starts having more constant effect on it, as it has a harder time making any kind of save.

EDIT: I just realised I made a big error, as saving throws are only decreased by 1 pr. negative level and not by 2. Do not know why I was thinking that before, leaving the post as it is, in case someone was already going to point out my error, I won't rob them of that fun :)

Anyway, in the example of the tarrasque, it then takes 11 rounds before it starts failing rolls besides on natural 1's. Sure, it is a long time, but chances are the beast is going to be ignoring him as he is not doing any actual damage to it, but rather just draining it's energy away from it; It is likely the tarrasque will view the wizard with spells and the fighter with a nasty big magical weapon as being more dangerous, until it is too late.

Goonthegoof
2010-02-08, 08:55 AM
Considering killing a Tarrasque seems to be the ultimate goal in the campaign he's for, you've just given me a powerful weapon. Thanks :smallbiggrin:

Xenogears
2010-02-08, 09:32 AM
If someone only needs to roll 5+ to save against the negative levels (I am not sure if he needs to take 1 save to avoid 2 negative levels or 2 checks pr time, one for each negative level), but is hit 5 times during 1 turn, he should still average 2 negative levels, which means than in the next round, he needs to roll 9+ to save and should thus be inflicted with 4 negative levels and then he needs 17+ to save and should get so many more, that from there on out, he needs a natural 20 to save on those nasty negative levels, which are working to kill him fast.

If it is a energi drain type ability, where the PC also gets hit points for those negative levels, he could take out even some of the most nasty things, assuming he got surviability to last through the first 3 or so rounds it takes him to nerf the living snot out of almost anything.

The more badass a thing he is up against, the more of his attacks are just going to be touch attacks instead of plain attacks.

Sure, a tarrasque got a nasty 35 armor, but he only got 5 touch.
It does have a nasty +38 fortitude save through, but he always fails on a 1 too.
So 24 attacks pr. round (someone mentioned a way to double natural attacks pr. round), means an average of 22 hits (playing the odds to be against the player here by rounding factions against him)
That means averaging 2 negative levels pr. round. descreasig that nasty fortitude save by 4 each round.
Even if the save DC is super low at 15, it only takes 6 rounds before the Tarrasque starts failing on rolls besides natural 1, after which it starts going down really fast and stops being able to hit anything.

To top that off, this works in excellent combo with the rest of the party, as the moment the saves of the tarrasque goes down, their abilities starts having more constant effect on it, as it has a harder time making any kind of save.

EDIT: I just realised I made a big error, as saving throws are only decreased by 1 pr. negative level and not by 2. Do not know why I was thinking that before, leaving the post as it is, in case someone was already going to point out my error, I won't rob them of that fun :)

Anyway, in the example of the tarrasque, it then takes 11 rounds before it starts failing rolls besides on natural 1's. Sure, it is a long time, but chances are the beast is going to be ignoring him as he is not doing any actual damage to it, but rather just draining it's energy away from it; It is likely the tarrasque will view the wizard with spells and the fighter with a nasty big magical weapon as being more dangerous, until it is too late.

Ummm. You do realise the saves for energy drain are to avoid making it permanent right? They only take place 24 hours later. So this is more like you hit it 22 times and it now has 22 (or 44 if your lvl 7 in Soul Eater) negative levels and is a wight under your command most likely (If your atleast 8th level in Soul Eater). No save. Not unless the creature escapes you for 24 hours.

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 11:11 AM
Precisely. Additionally, the ability is Su, and Su abilities are standard actions unless noted otherwise (which it isn't, here).
However, it would not surprise me if that was the writer intent, because clearly nobody proof-read this class. Read the prerequisites: humanoid or monstrous humanoid. So why is there a mind flayer in the art? Why are beholders and unicorns examples of Soul Eaters?

Xenogears
2010-02-08, 11:16 AM
Precisely. Additionally, the ability is Su, and Su abilities are standard actions unless noted otherwise (which it isn't, here).
However, it would not surprise me if that was the writer intent, because clearly nobody proof-read this class. Read the prerequisites: humanoid or monstrous humanoid. So why is there a mind flayer in the art? Why are beholders and unicorns examples of Soul Eaters?

The Requirement is NON-humanoid (monsterous humanoid is acceptable). So the mind flayer fits fine. The unicorn still weirds me out tho.

Flickerdart
2010-02-08, 12:21 PM
Oh. Well, damn. :smallredface:

Goonthegoof
2010-02-09, 07:45 AM
So how does my Energy Drain work then? What action do I need to use to attack with it? Also pretty much every other energy drain seems to work whenever you hit with a natural attack, why wouldn't this one?

Edit: Any ideas for the base class? Fighter/barbarian etc seems useless for someone focused on hitting with lots of natural attacks.

term1nally s1ck
2010-02-09, 08:27 AM
Tome of Battle is always good...but take a level or 2 of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy variant) to get Pounce, and Fighter levels could get you Rapidstrike and improved rapidstrike (Draconomicon)...for even more attacks.

Cieyrin
2010-02-09, 04:24 PM
Ummm. You do realise the saves for energy drain are to avoid making it permanent right? They only take place 24 hours later. So this is more like you hit it 22 times and it now has 22 (or 44 if your lvl 7 in Soul Eater) negative levels and is a wight under your command most likely (If your atleast 8th level in Soul Eater). No save. Not unless the creature escapes you for 24 hours.

Well, they could have a save, though they'd need Enduring Life (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Enduring_Life) and Lasting Life (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Lasting_Life). The likelihood of that happening doesn't seem the likeliest thing to happen, though, unless they're specifically designed to fight against energy drainers, so Vamp Hunters or something like.

faceroll
2010-02-09, 04:34 PM
The Requirement is NON-humanoid (monsterous humanoid is acceptable). So the mind flayer fits fine. The unicorn still weirds me out tho.

If you read in the fluff, Soul Eaters are often created against their will.

Corruption! HOoooooYEah! (read that in Peggy Hill voice)

Xenogears
2010-02-09, 04:38 PM
If you read in the fluff, Soul Eaters are often created against their will.

Corruption! HOoooooYEah! (read that in Peggy Hill voice)

So is that what happens when a unicorn is used to make a violated horn? God that is the creepiest magic item ever.