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weenie
2010-02-07, 08:08 AM
In preparation for an arena-style mini campaign I put together a lvl20 character, that looks more or less like this:

Human Scout4/Ranger1/Wizard2/Abj.champion3/Swiftblade10
Str:10
Con:24
Dex:32
Int:26
Wis:10
Cha:10
F/R/W: 20/33/19
HP:222
AC:52
BaB:18
Init:+24
Speed:80ft(when haste is casted)

He casts as a lvl 11 wizard, which lets him spam haste and occasionally drop an antimagic field. Other spells of note include celerity, thunderlance, dimension door, wraithstrike, shield and a one round(ex) time stop effect granted by the Swiftblade PrC.

If he moves 20ft in a round all his attacks deal an extra 6d6 dmg, and thanks to Swift hunter, no spellcaster is immune to this extra damage.

He uses two transmuting shortswords, so DR shouldn't be an issue.


My question is what are this character's weaknesses? Or what kind of opponent could take him out easily enough for me to be worried about it? Note that fights could include fighting one or more monsters or high level NPCs, and that he might be required to solo a few encounters.

If any additional information is needed, I'll be happy to provide it.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-07, 08:17 AM
List of things that could destroy it:

Wizard 20 (any flavor/PrC combination) - forcecages/Dimensional locks, combined with Maw of chaos/other AoE - Dropped during Time stop

Psion 20 - Action economy, guaranteed ability damage (20 cha in a round is easy, and you can make will saves for half... do you have mettle?), no save/no attack damage (crystal shards)

That's not even getting into abusive things, like Celestial Conduit/Casters immune to all damage, no matter what (yes, even that. Trollform + Favor of the Martyr+Energy immunity Fire/Acid = no damage from any source that doesn't have "Searing Spell" attached)/Hulking Hurlers/Lance Chargers/Minionmancers/etc.

The build's got solid saves and HP, but that's nothing that can't be worked past. I believe I have a 14 hit point level 13 character that could reliably take it out.

weenie
2010-02-07, 08:33 AM
Well, here's what I came up with to counter casters:

first round: win initiative(use celerity if needed) and go first
use a free action to subsume a 6th level haste and get a bonus time-stopped turn
in the tie stop turn, cast haste as a free action, close in with the pesky caster and cast an antimagic field
resume your regular turn standing right in front of enemy caster with the antimagic field on. proceed to full attack the poor helpless bastard and use your standard extra action to ready a move action if the caster tries to move away from you.

result=caster should be screwed, because he can't cast

As for chargers, the character should be fast enough to stay outside charging range against most opponents, but should they actually close in on him, he can have a readied move action to move away and I took Elusive target, so Power attacking him won't do any good. Not sure what to do against hulking hurlers though.

Hiisi
2010-02-07, 08:54 AM
This:

http://nerdfrenzy.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/123707900692.png

Nah, I don't think you need worry about anything except wizards(they can use celerity aswell :P) with improved initiative (awesome feat) and other boosters.

Iceforge
2010-02-07, 08:58 AM
If you see a half-ogre who comes into the arena with a almost 9ft across lead bullet, then you are easily off the hook.

Unless the arena actually allows the hulking hurler to walk back and forth, he can only bring in a single "bullet" of maximum weight for usage.

So, if there is a wide space between you in the start, that means the hulking hurler has to smash you in a single hit, so you simply make sure you win initiative and then declare that you are readying an action to freaking run out of the way the moment you see the hulking hurler throw the damn lead bullet your way; It is a thrown object and as such, you should have time to get out of the way, at least I would as a GM allow you a reflex vs. reflex save to see if you are quick enough to get out of the way or the hunting hurler is quick enough to adjust his aim for your moment.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 08:59 AM
Your saves are pretty mediocre at best, particularly the Fort save, plus unless you've got immunity to polymorph effects, Mind-affecting effects and a constant Deathward any caster can spam either Save or lose or Debuffs until you suck.

You also need some reliable ways of finding elusive enemies lest you get ambushed the whole time, speed isn't always the most important thing if you can't do anything with it. By level 20 just about all casters have the ability to be invisible, flying and heavily defended at all times, do you know you're going to start opposite someone without their standerd buffs on?

Narazil
2010-02-07, 09:01 AM
Wizards with proper contingencies will beat it.

Wizards winning initiative will win. Foresight Foresight Foresight.. Not much you can do about them teleporting to their own demiplane.

Suppose a proper sneak could get the drop on it.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-07, 09:05 AM
Well, here's what I came up with to counter casters:

first round: win initiative(use celerity if needed) and go first
use a free action to subsume a 6th level haste and get a bonus time-stopped turn
in the tie stop turn, cast haste as a free action, close in with the pesky caster and cast an antimagic field
resume your regular turn standing right in front of enemy caster with the antimagic field on. proceed to full attack the poor helpless bastard and use your standard extra action to ready a move action if the caster tries to move away from you.

result=caster should be screwed, because he can't cast

As for chargers, the character should be fast enough to stay outside charging range against most opponents, but should they actually close in on him, he can have a readied move action to move away and I took Elusive target, so Power attacking him won't do any good. Not sure what to do against hulking hurlers though.

Casters? There's only one way you know a caster moves first. If you can ID the action. If the spell is still/silent, you don't know he acted until you get hit. No Celerity.

In other words? You blink, and you're dead.

Also, at level 13+, it's possible to have sniping full attacks with no cover/concealment/anything, followed by hides at +50 or more.

Really, the character has weaknesses. Several. If you're in an arena at level 20, and you don't have level 9 spells, you pretty much autolose.

Eldariel
2010-02-07, 09:07 AM
Well, you're probably pretty well off against warrior-types as they have trouble penetrating your miss chances and contingencies, along with your speed. Better casters though...well, I'd imagine you lose Initiative (your bonus isn't as big as Moment of Prescience), your Celerity gets countered Battlemagic Perception/Ring of Spell-Battle/Divine Defiance/whatever or their own Celerity and then it's lights-out with Time Stop > Bull****.

PhoenixRivers
2010-02-07, 09:09 AM
Well, you're probably pretty well off against warrior-types as they have trouble penetrating your miss chances and contingencies, along with your speed. Better casters though...well, I'd imagine you lose Initiative (your bonus isn't as big as Moment of Prescience), your Celerity gets countered Battlemagic Perception/Ring of Spell-Battle/Divine Defiance/whatever or their own Celerity and then it's lights-out with Time Stop > Bull****.

At level 20? There are a lot of warrior types that ignore miss chances. Heck, by level 20, warrior types should be able to drop disjunctions too.

Seriously, level 9 spells are not hard to get. It needs them.

Also, should another competitor have a cheater of mystra build, you'll be in for a very, very nasty surprise.

Melamoto
2010-02-07, 09:44 AM
http://nerdfrenzy.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/123707900692.png

I was scrolling slowly down the page as I saw this pic, and it's the first thing in quite a while that has made me actually lol.

Altima
2010-02-07, 10:30 AM
A flying character? If you can't get into melee, you don't seem to be able to do damage.

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 10:39 AM
first round: win initiative(use celerity if needed)

Personal experience leads me to believe that you're not going to win initiative most of the time with a +24 at 20th level (I can buy that much init for less than 15k gp, for one thing). Additionally, you'd need Foresight to be able to use Celerity on turn 1 if you don't go first.

I'm going to suggest that you get every detection method out there, for starteres. Stuff like Greater Arcane Sight, Battlemagic Perception, Spellcaster's Bane, and assorted other items are pretty important against other casters, and you have little excuse not to be able to get them in some form with 20th level wealth. Additionally, it'd be helpful to know what your AB is instead of your BAB.

PR essentially made the more important points. While I don't agree with his belief that 9th level spells are a must, I will admit that you're going to need them if your build can't cover up the slack of not having them. See if you can grab a better action economy setup with what you're working with, because I'll be honest, it's currently looks a bit slow for a swiftblade.

Myou
2010-02-07, 10:41 AM
If you see a half-ogre who comes into the arena with a almost 9ft across lead bullet, then you are easily off the hook.

Unless the arena actually allows the hulking hurler to walk back and forth, he can only bring in a single "bullet" of maximum weight for usage.

So, if there is a wide space between you in the start, that means the hulking hurler has to smash you in a single hit, so you simply make sure you win initiative and then declare that you are readying an action to freaking run out of the way the moment you see the hulking hurler throw the damn lead bullet your way; It is a thrown object and as such, you should have time to get out of the way, at least I would as a GM allow you a reflex vs. reflex save to see if you are quick enough to get out of the way or the hunting hurler is quick enough to adjust his aim for your moment.

No no no no no, attack rolls already represent trying to dodge. If you rule as you suggest you're inventing houserules, ones that horribly weaken ranged builds for no reason.

Douglas
2010-02-07, 10:56 AM
No no no no no, attack rolls already represent trying to dodge.
Yes, but not to the point of focusing your entire attention on a single threat to the point of being unable to do almost anything else.


If you rule as you suggest you're inventing houserules, ones that horribly weaken ranged builds for no reason.
A) No, he is not. Readied actions are RAW and how they work with something like this is RAW clear.
B) It only works against one attack per round, and only if you give up your own standard action to do it.
C) It only works if your movement makes the attack impossible.

If the Hurler is just throwing something at you with an attack roll, you'd have to either move out of range or move behind sufficiently strong cover to actually stop the rock. If at the end of your readied move you are still in range and do not have something physically blocking the boulder (try a Wall of Force, normal obstructions are probably not going to survive the hit), you still get hit. If the Hurler is using the option that changes it to targeting a square and giving people a reflex save instead, then he's still targeting the same square and you're perfectly safe because you're not in that square any more.

Kislath
2010-02-07, 10:57 AM
Psionics might be a problem for you.

Your biggest weakness, though, and the one that will likely end you, would be the fact that you could, at some important juncture, roll a 1.

AtopTheMountain
2010-02-07, 11:00 AM
Here's some other ways a wizard could destroy you.
1. Powerful touch spells, such as Imprisonment, since the wizard doesn't need to move away. That seems to be your main way to beat a wizard, since you want to ready an action to follow him when he moves away.
2. Wall spells, barrier spells. If the wizard casts a Prismatic Wall across the battlefield, there's no way in hell a character who casts as a level 11 wizard is getting past. And if you do, you just wasted tons of spells, so you're screwed either way.
3. High level summon spells, such as Summon Elemental Monolith. The wizard hides behind his friend the Gargantuan mound of stone and throws spell after spell at you while you try to avoid being smashed.
4. The wizard casts something to do extra stuff, like Celerity, and does two or more of those at the same time.
5. There's no guaruntee that he loses initiative...

Volkov
2010-02-07, 11:00 AM
The circle of eight. That is all.

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 11:00 AM
Psionics might be a problem for you.

Your biggest weakness, though, and the one that will likely end you, would be the fact that you could, at some important juncture, roll a 1.

That's actually circumventable via Phaant Luckstones.

Harperfan7
2010-02-07, 11:13 AM
Weenie, would you mind posting your entire character sheet?

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 11:14 AM
items particularlly.

Myou
2010-02-07, 11:50 AM
Yes, but not to the point of focusing your entire attention on a single threat to the point of being unable to do almost anything else.


A) No, he is not. Readied actions are RAW and how they work with something like this is RAW clear.
B) It only works against one attack per round, and only if you give up your own standard action to do it.
C) It only works if your movement makes the attack impossible.

If the Hurler is just throwing something at you with an attack roll, you'd have to either move out of range or move behind sufficiently strong cover to actually stop the rock. If at the end of your readied move you are still in range and do not have something physically blocking the boulder (try a Wall of Force, normal obstructions are probably not going to survive the hit), you still get hit. If the Hurler is using the option that changes it to targeting a square and giving people a reflex save instead, then he's still targeting the same square and you're perfectly safe because you're not in that square any more.

Seriously? Where is that use stated? If that really is in the books then I apologise. Although it seems ridiculous that you can outrun arrows.

sofawall
2010-02-07, 11:50 AM
Yes, but not to the point of focusing your entire attention on a single threat to the point of being unable to do almost anything else.

And how would you do this against a melee opponent?

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 11:52 AM
And how would you do this against a melee opponent?

Same way you would against a ranged opponent. Total defense. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#totalDefense)

weenie
2010-02-07, 01:13 PM
Sorry for the delay, I went to play soccer. Here's the full cs: link (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183695)

And I'm not going for invincibility here, as long as my character doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, I'm satisfied. :smallsmile:

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 01:33 PM
some way of breaking a wall of force, further miss chances, freedom of movement, death ward, mindblank, blindsight/tremorsense/blindsense/mindsight/somethingorother to prevent ambush/hiding, trueseeing, a boost to saves, a reroll ability for the occasional 1, an alternative attack option if the oponent is immune to hp damage or has a higher move than you, ray deflection.... all gettable with WBL but there's a few holes yet.

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 01:36 PM
Sorry for the delay, I went to play soccer. Here's the full cs: link (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=183695)

And I'm not going for invincibility here, as long as my character doesn't have any glaring weaknesses, I'm satisfied. :smallsmile:

Looking at your equipment list, I'll have to say 'too simple'.

Do you happen to know how buffs are going to be set up in your arena context? If it's favorable, you should ditch items like Bracers of Armor+8 (a 64k value) to instead cast an armor-granting spell (perhaps something like Greater Luminous Armor or Greater Mage Armor) with a Guardinal Feather (adds +2 to an AC-granting spell for 600 gp/spell). Such logic also applies to other items like a Ring of Protection +5 (there are many deflection-granting spells, some with the capability to go up to +9), Cloak of Resistance +5 (trumped by a casting of Superior Resistance), etc. The only issue with the above suggestion is getting disjoined/dispelled, but frankly if you get hit by such a thing anyway you're probably in bad shape regardless.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at is that you shouldn't be afraid to use 20th level wealth. There's a lot of it, yes. But taking the time to make cost-effective choices might open up more avenues of strategy.


Another thing to note is your damage output. In a nutshell, it's small for 20th level combat. Unless you're consistently pumping out something in the range of 50+ damage per hit (not per round), you're spending too much time in combat, which results in getting out-spelled, out-attacked, what have you.

My last note for now is a minor nitpick: it's helpful to cite the sources of your abilities/equips. Not only does this make it easier on a sheet checker or your DM, but if you look back on the sheet 3 months from now, you'll be able to see exactly what you did. It's akin to a programmer using comment lines to provide structure.

sofawall
2010-02-07, 01:44 PM
Same way you would against a ranged opponent. Total defense. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#totalDefense)

Of course, Total Defense has nothing to do with readying an action to run away or dodge.

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 01:46 PM
Of course, Total Defense has nothing to do with readying an action to run away or dodge.

I think that was the point.
I personally don't see a problem with readying a movement to break LoS, provided you have the right readying trigger. I mean, unless they're using action abuse, they're wasting most of their turn trying to dodge a single attack. Which is usually pretty silly.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 01:52 PM
I think that was the point.

quite. text text text

sofawall
2010-02-07, 01:55 PM
I think that was the point.
I personally don't see a problem with readying a movement to break LoS, provided you have the right readying trigger. I mean, unless they're using action abuse, they're wasting most of their turn trying to dodge a single attack. Which is usually pretty silly.

I see some pretty large problems with breaking LoS as a readied action, not for balance but for verisimilitude. Sure, you can do it to a thrown rock, but what about a Crossbow Bolt?

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 01:56 PM
True. Especially if said cover is your maximum moving distance away, and fundamentally a ranged attack takes only a split second to go.

Person_Man
2010-02-07, 02:04 PM
I think your math is off on the Skirmish damage. Swift Hunter only applies to your Scout and Ranger levels, and not anything else. So a Scout 4/Ranger 1/Anything Else 15 only gets 2d6 Skirmish, not 6d6.

Also, why even bother with Scout4/Ranger1? The extra damage is pretty minimal - even if I missed something and it is really 6d6, that's only 21 extra damage. Is there some Skill combo I'm missing?

kemmotar
2010-02-07, 02:05 PM
Of course, Total Defense has nothing to do with readying an action to run away or dodge.

I tried to ready an action once in similar context. The trigger I was going for was as soon as the enemy lets the arrow fly I jump behind the boulder next to me.

The DM told me that that was what an attack roll was for and so we settled for when I see him notch the arrow (pick up the boulder or prepare to throw it in the case of a hulking hurler) I jump behind the boulder. This of course meant that I escaped the arrow but the arrow was never actually fired.

Readying such an action is feasible but it would probably result in something similar to the above. Same with spells, I would venture to guess, if you ready an action to break LoS from a caster as soon as you see him begin casting a spell will give said caster the benefit being able to target someone else or presumably hold the charge since you will vanish from his LoS before he finishes the spell.

Also, as it was noted above if the hulking hurler targets a square you should be able to ready an action to jump out of the way, since it's a small target area. If it's a larger target area, for example from a spell, normally you shouldn't be able to run away from it except (depending on the DM) if you ready an action to activate a chronocharm of the horizon walker (swift action, move up to your speed I think 1/day).

If you ready a normal move action (or ready to cast a spell) it would be impossible to actually outrun the projectile if it is already launched. If you ready an action as soon as they prepare the spell/projectile and break LoS they should be able to retarget. If you use other means, for example hold the charge on a dimension door (not sure if you can actually hold the charge on non-touch spells though) or some other form of instantaneous movement it might be possible to avoid said spell or projectile as it is launched. If you ready an action to use chronocharm of the horizon walker you should be able to avoid the spell/projectile after it is launched because its a swift action.

On the other hand there should be better things to do with your actions but if you find it necessary I think the above sums up what probably happens, subject to DM interpretation of course.

weenie
2010-02-07, 02:48 PM
I think your math is off on the Skirmish damage. Swift Hunter only applies to your Scout and Ranger levels, and not anything else. So a Scout 4/Ranger 1/Anything Else 15 only gets 2d6 Skirmish, not 6d6.

Also, why even bother with Scout4/Ranger1? The extra damage is pretty minimal - even if I missed something and it is really 6d6, that's only 21 extra damage. Is there some Skill combo I'm missing?

Improved skirmish also adds 2d6 dmg and swiftblade gives you something similar to skirmish at lvl10. I'm well aware, that +6d6 isn't much at lvl 20, but I can guarantee it on every attack, even on a full attack, every round, so that might count for something at least.

In response to someone else's post, I already have Freedom of movement as an (ex) ability, thanks to swiftblade, and was counting on AMF to take care of the rest, should a caster come along, but it would be a good idea to have death ward and mind blank.. Are there any cheap ways of getting them in item form?

Signmaker
2010-02-07, 03:16 PM
but it would be a good idea to have death ward and mind blank.. Are there any cheap ways of getting them in item form?

Scrolls, more or less. And as 6d6 ~= +21 damage, I'd have to say you need a bigger bonus damage source.

mostlyharmful
2010-02-07, 03:21 PM
there's the Soulfire quality for armour, BoEDs (+4) for deathward,

for the mindblank theres a ring or the third eye, each are 120k so not exactly cheap but worth every penny.

And don't forget the third of the absolutes, Freedom of Movement in a 40k ring.

Harperfan7
2010-02-07, 03:51 PM
You'll never be able to afford all of it with those tomes you used.

But anyways, your character is awesome. If I, myself, were a 20th level character, I think I would be that guy.

Myou
2010-02-07, 04:10 PM
I tried to ready an action once in similar context. The trigger I was going for was as soon as the enemy lets the arrow fly I jump behind the boulder next to me.

The DM told me that that was what an attack roll was for and so we settled for when I see him notch the arrow (pick up the boulder or prepare to throw it in the case of a hulking hurler) I jump behind the boulder. This of course meant that I escaped the arrow but the arrow was never actually fired.

Readying such an action is feasible but it would probably result in something similar to the above. Same with spells, I would venture to guess, if you ready an action to break LoS from a caster as soon as you see him begin casting a spell will give said caster the benefit being able to target someone else or presumably hold the charge since you will vanish from his LoS before he finishes the spell.

Also, as it was noted above if the hulking hurler targets a square you should be able to ready an action to jump out of the way, since it's a small target area. If it's a larger target area, for example from a spell, normally you shouldn't be able to run away from it except (depending on the DM) if you ready an action to activate a chronocharm of the horizon walker (swift action, move up to your speed I think 1/day).

If you ready a normal move action (or ready to cast a spell) it would be impossible to actually outrun the projectile if it is already launched. If you ready an action as soon as they prepare the spell/projectile and break LoS they should be able to retarget. If you use other means, for example hold the charge on a dimension door (not sure if you can actually hold the charge on non-touch spells though) or some other form of instantaneous movement it might be possible to avoid said spell or projectile as it is launched. If you ready an action to use chronocharm of the horizon walker you should be able to avoid the spell/projectile after it is launched because its a swift action.

On the other hand there should be better things to do with your actions but if you find it necessary I think the above sums up what probably happens, subject to DM interpretation of course.

I agree with your DM, that make a lot more sense.